Fast-fashion giant Shein is thinking of going public
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Welcome to Most Innovative Companies. I'm your host, Yasmin Gagne, joined by my producer and Shein Power user, Josh Christensen. Hey, Josh. Hey, Yas. I bought a few shirts. I bought a few shirts. Take us through your last 50%.

My last 50 purchases. Well, let me just open up my Amazon and my checking account and go through each one. No, I mean, I've bought, so I'm guilty as most people are of using, you know, buying fast fashion. We don't get paid slow fashion money. Sorry. We don't get paid.

Slow fashion. I think we need to make that. It's not on you. That's the branding. What is, wait, we need some like, you know how they changed like lab grown me to like cultivated me and it's all about like branding these products. Right. Like what is like slow fashion or fashion as it were, non-fast fashion needs to have like artisanal fashion. Can we have like farm to table fashion? Is this? That's like Brunello Cuginelli, you know?

Like he makes everything on his small farm in Italy or whatever. Yeah, I'm into that. That's farm-to-table fashion. I'm into that too. I would like fashion that doesn't destroy the environment, but I would also like it not to cost a billion dollars. Same here. Which is tough. Yeah.

So today's episode, as you may have intimated, is basically all about Sheehan. Later on today's episode, I'll be talking with Sheehan's head of strategic communications, Peter Pernodet, about the company's on-demand model and how it could undertake more sustainable practices in the future, question mark, question mark. You can tell in my interview, Pernodet is a lawyer by training. But first...

The fast fashion giant recently announced that it's looking at an IPO, and we're going to dive into what that means for the company and the fast fashion industry at large. Here to help us make sense of it is Fast Company senior staff writer Liz Segrin. Welcome back. Thank you so much. And Josh, oh no, you're killing me. I'm so sorry. With your sheen haul.

It was like two or three shirts. Oh my gosh, Josh, we need to go through some therapy sessions together and talk through this, you know, like what's motivating us. Well, you know what we can do? Can you give me suggestions of lower cost methods

men's fashions brands. Totally. We'll talk offline. I think even like quote unquote, I mean, A, I think it's worth saying at the top of this. I think sustainable fashion is like kind of bullshit a lot of the time. Agreed. You know, when Reformation is like, by buying the skirt, you save 12 gallons of water. It's like, yeah, you could have just not bought the skirt. Totally. Easy. We've also talked about carbon offsets before and the kind of... I know, carbon offsets are silly. Like, you know, there's just a lot to dig into. But

Give us a brief overview, Liz, of how the fast fashion industry kind of got to this point and where Shein fits into the story. Totally. And I guess the reason I'm so passionate about this and so angry about Shein is because I've been looking at the fast fashion industry for the last decade of my career as a journalist.

For some background, fast fashion first emerged in the 80s. And there were these amazing European companies, H&M and Zara, that perfected this completely different way of making clothes, which is that they went overseas to these inexpensive factories where labor was cheap and especially with the exchange rate was very cheap for their consumers. Let's just stop for a second and say, I don't think they really innovated or perfected a model because...

Slave labor has been around for centuries. It has been around for a long time. But I do think that initially the whole industry was premised on the differences in exchange rates. That, you know, if you were making something in China or in Bangladesh and you were paying people the going rate in those countries, you would be able to produce a lot of clothes and goods.

sell them very inexpensively. And these brands, what they were really good at doing was taking fashion that was coming off the runways and quickly turning them into these inexpensive pieces that people could afford back home. And really at the time, there was this kind of idealistic notion that they were democratizing fashion, right? Like remember that at the time, the landscape of fashion were these expensive brands that most people couldn't afford. And what they were saying is they were putting a stake in the ground and saying,

that's kind of BS. Like we should all be able to wear, you know, the latest fashions. And I think that that became like the dominant notion. Then what happened is everybody realized that this was an excellent business model. And that concept of fast fashion trickled down into basically the majority of the fashion that is produced today. I mean, we think of Zara and H&M as kind of the big fast fashion brands, but all

Almost every brand out there is operating on a similar model of, you know, using very inexpensive factories overseas, trying to churn out the most trendy pieces and then pushing them to consumers. Target is a fast fashion brand. Old Navy, Gap, these are all fast fashion brands. Sometimes their price points are a little higher, but they're making it the same factories. OK, I mean, they're doing all of the same stuff.

And so what's the problem with this, right? Like initially in the 80s and 90s, when we were all, you know, innocent and thinking that this is all really cool, we weren't thinking of this as a problem. But now with climate change looming, in many cases, like it's already here, right? And we're seeing the impact of it. We know that all of these business practices are

are moving the planet to the brink of destruction because it takes a lot of raw materials to create these clothes that are essentially disposable. It takes a lot of carbon emissions to ship these products all over the world. I think, I mean, I think...

- I mean, I think our listeners sort of understand the impact of fast fashion. What can you say about the size of Shein compared to Zara and H&M and how much it's worth? Like how it's sort of emerged in the past few years? - So what's been so frustrating to me is that because of the mass kind of awareness, exactly what you're talking about, that consumers, our listeners, people in the world are realizing how bad fast fashion is. There was a lot of pressure put on brands like H&M and Zara to clean up their act.

And, you know, in the last five to 10 years, we've seen them slowly beginning to use better materials and all of that good stuff, right? Like, kind of. There's still a lot. A little bit, sure. There's a lot of greenwashing there. I don't want to give them too much credit here. But they got the message that creating fast fashion was inherently problematic. Then...

Basically, around the time that TikTok was emerging, Shein began to explode. It was just kind of hypercharging the fast fashion model. It went to, we don't know exactly how many, but with something like over 10,000 factories, you know, all over China and developing countries.

producing very, very inexpensive clothing, creating like incredibly trendy pieces, right? They're putting out 10,000 new styles on their website every day. The algorithm that they have is able to basically predict what people are going to want to wear tomorrow before those people even really figure it out.

To take a step back, Shein is effectively using AI to come up with designs, right? Yeah, it is. It's using a lot of data. It's basically an algorithmically charged fast fashion brand that is hyper-charging the process of turning around clothes and then has an incredible network of factories that will produce these clothes themselves.

at the drop of a hat and have them ready for consumers to buy today or tomorrow. It's worked really, really well that, you know, they were very quick to jump onto TikTok, as I mentioned before. You know, young consumers were obsessed with this, right? You know, they could see a new trend bubbling up on TikTok and immediately buy something

from Shein that was so affordable. I mean, they could, you know, for $100, you can get like 20 to 50 pieces from Shein. So that's why the company has grown to the size that it is. Right now, it is bigger than both H&M and Zara combined. And those companies are over 50 years old each. How did this company become such a favorite with Gen Z? Like what business moves or strategic moves have they made that has made it so successful? Yeah.

They're taking a very different approach to fashion than the fast fashion brands of the past. Like H&M and Zara, you know, they were always collaborating with these big designers on these capsule collections. They were basically trying to create this kind of aspirational fashion brand that allowed, you know, everyday consumers to buy beautiful designs.

Just to put it in clear terms, it's like this combination of H&M collaborating with like Stella McCartney or recently Paco Rabanne, Zara effectively seeing something on the runway and making a cheaper version of Celine, right? Totally. That was what they were doing and they did it really well. Sheen doesn't really care about any of that. They're not interested in luxury fashion in any sense.

They're just seeing like, okay, what's going on on TikTok? Like what's trending today? Is it, you know, a particular like 90s fashion look, high-waisted jeans, skinny jeans?

Tomorrow, it's like wide leg jeans and like big ass blazers. Big ass blazers. That's what I mean. Come on, everybody loves an oversized blazer. They're very good. But you know, Shein can turn that thing around and it'll be available tomorrow and it'll be at your house on Friday, right? That's the model that they're operating on. And this is all premised on them having a supply chain that is able to take a TikTok trend and turn it into a product, you know, in less than a week.

What does it mean that Shein is looking at going public now? So this is such an interesting development. There have been rumors about this for the past year or so. But yes, it's looking to go public. And we know that they've confidentially filed paperwork to explore an initial public offering on the New York Stock Exchange. This would be really interesting because it would allow anybody to buy stock at the company. It would have a couple of different interesting effects.

I think one of the more troubling ones to me is that it could legitimize the company, right? Right now, it's this kind of upstart company. People think it's a little shady. It has a lot of problematic practices. And at the same time, consumers, you know, really love it, right? It's done really, really well.

But by being a public company, it will have legitimacy. And there will be lots of stockholders that will be invested in it, right? Just so I understand, what do you mean by have legitimacy? I think a lot of consumers are really skeptical about what this company is, right? It has kind of this reputation as being this kind of Chinese company. It's not transparent at all.

about any of its practices. It doesn't need to be. You know, when we hear these rumors of things like labor violations or using cotton that is premised on slave labor, there's no way for anybody to really, you know, go to the company and demand that they provide explanations to us, right? And the company has until now been very secretive about all of this.

But if it were public, all of that stuff would have to be out in the open, you know, and I think consumers might actually feel like, you know, this is like a legitimate company like Nike or any other large publicly, you know, traded company and feel like a little bit less guilty for shopping at these companies.

But at the same time, you know, it really will open them up to this scrutiny. Consumers, legislators will be putting pressure on Xi'an to explain what its supply chain is.

and demand answers to a lot of these questions that we have about practices that seem really problematic. And so we get a sense of what this IPO could mean. Tell me about the company's valuation and the valuation it might be seeking in an IPO. So their current valuation is $66 billion, and I think that they're hoping for a valuation of $100 billion. And for listeners who might not know, you know, you mentioned that it's filed confidentially. What does that actually mean?

It's a legitimate process by which companies can explore what an IPO would mean for them. It would mean that they're hiring a bunch of lawyers to look at all of the paperwork and what would be required for all of that.

I think, you know, there have been rumors about Sheehan filing for an IPO for a year. And what this means is that we have another piece of evidence that more likely than not, an IPO is going to happen. I think a lot of Fast Company readers, certainly when they think of Sheehan, think of the disastrous tour

they took a bunch of TikTok influencers on of their factory. I don't want to rag on her too much, but there was a confidence activist who has been dragged to hell on the internet. What is a confidence activist? It's a discussion for another day. Yeah, that's my question. What does it mean?

It means to be in favor of confidence, Josh. Unconfidence activist. Sure, I think we can all get behind that. Yeah, she could have been less confident in this case and not gone on the trip, but that's fine. Tell us why that trip came under fire. Like, what were people so upset about? Oh my gosh, what a disaster. Okay, well, I think to understand that, we need to take a step back. There have been a lot of accusations about...

Xi'an's practices. And so they include a lot of different things. Like for one, they've been accused of stealing designs from independent designers. That's one accusation. There have also been accusations that the labor conditions in their factories are terrible. Reporters who have gone undercover into these factories have said that these workers are working 75-hour weeks. They're not allowed to take breaks. It's really hard for them to go home to their families in the villages.

because the company makes it so hard for them. So really terrible labor practices. And then also that they're using cotton from the Xinjiang region of China, where essentially what our government has called a genocide

And there's a lot of forced labor happening in the cotton industry there. So those are all things that have been circulating, you know, in the ether, in the press. And so Sheehan really wanted to try to push back against some of this. And so what they did was they took these six influencers on an all expense paid trip to these factories.

These influencers were just so impressed by the shiny factories that they went to and the amazing labor conditions there. One influencer described workers as chill and not even sweating. Hell yeah. Wow.

Yikes. This comes back to a broader point of like the issues with where people get their news and information from in the social media era, which is a much bigger point. So not a... And how can it be a sweatshop if you're not even sweating? Like, oh my gosh. Because we all know descriptions have to be literal. Literally.

Literally, right. Just crank up that AC and it's fine. Yeah, it's totally fine. But they're freezing. It can't be a sweatshop. I know. It's also like, do you not think if you're going, this is how I feel whenever I profile the CEO and they're like, let's walk around the office together and they'll like stop a random worker and be like,

hey, Chris, how's your daughter? It's like, guys, this is so dumb. Yeah, it was so problematic because there just wasn't any skepticism or cynicism in what they were doing. And clearly they were being paid off by Shein, right? Like either directly, they are directly being paid by them. They're influencers who represent the brand on TikTok. But they were also given this like luxurious, you know, trip to China. Yeah.

They very rightfully came under tons of fire for essentially being co-conspirators, right, with Xi'an in helping them promote this PR, you know, that the company is actually very ethical and very sustainable. That's really interesting, I think, when we're talking about the IPO, because it really reveals how...

how problematic and how consumers are basically very skeptical of this company. And so once it becomes this public company and more data is revealed about what's going on inside of it, we're really going to see who comes down on the side of like, yes, this is a money-making company. We all want to make as much money as possible. So we're going to buy shares at this company versus the people who are like,

No, like as consumers, we need to be responsible about where we shop and the impact that we're having on the planet. I have to say, I think I, I don't know if it's disagree, but I think about this a little differently because whenever people are like, consumers are skeptical about SHE and I'm like, no, they're not. They're buying from them. You know,

Yeah.

And I do think there are consumers. Yeah, I don't think it's like a total like no, but. But where's the tipping point? And I think it's a lot higher than people do. When you're a company valued at, you know, 66 billion hoping for a larger valuation when you're selling this many products, how many consumers actually need to like say no, take action, like legislators? What is the tipping point for these companies?

I mean, I see it in kind of two ways. You know, I'm taking a step back and seeing kind of the broader shift in the way that we shop. And certainly young consumers have been very taken in by Shein's very inexpensive, very trendy clothing. At the same time, more broadly, I think there's been

greater awareness about the impact that clothing is having on the planet. And I think among older consumers who have more buying power, there are more brands who are at least arguing that their clothes are sustainable. And like, I agree, Yaz, that there's like a ton of greenwashing, but I still think that it's a positive development that brands are aware that they need to at least present themselves as sustainable, something that Shein is, you know, not really trying to do.

And so I think that the consumers as a whole are beginning to change and that as Gen Z starts working and getting older, that their practices may change. And we also know that Gen Z is highly aware of climate change and is anxious about that. If we're able to curb Xi'an a little bit, that other brands may pop up to provide other options. One thing that I'm thinking about is

Brands like ThredUp and Depop, which are secondhand resale companies. They're not brands, right? They're platforms. They're platforms. Just to be clear. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they're also targeting Gen Z because they know that Gen Z is very price conscious, right? So this is one way that these other companies are growing. So I think that there is the potential if there is enough of awareness about like how problematic it is that that

on the margins, some consumers may change their behavior as they get older. At least this is me hoping and praying that like 10 years worth of like reporting and like kind of like, you know, trying to hold these brands into account, you know, is going to have some impact. And maybe that's me in my pipe dream.

There are all of these things that are happening now, you know, in Congress. Yeah. So let's let's actually talk about this sort of political response to this company. Take us through what some politicians said about the company. This is actually really interesting because there aren't many fashion companies that Congress has taken aim at quite as directly. Yeah, I think part of it is because she is Chinese. Right.

Totally. Yeah, I mean, but like Congress was, you know, very forcefully trying to take down TikTok and they're sort of doing the same thing here with Xi'an. So basically Congress is...

is very strongly in favor of curbing any fashion brand that brings cotton into the U.S. that is tainted by forced labor from China, right? And so lots of different representatives, including Jennifer Wexton of Virginia and John Rose of Tennessee, who are asking for laws that

first of all, that demand that Shein, you know, be transparent about, you know, where it's getting its cotton and then curbing these companies, including Shein, if there's any evidence of tainted cotton in their supply chain. That's one thing. And then Marco Rubio is trying to get at it from another perspective, which is that one way that Shein, you know, has...

grown to be this successful is that it's shipping directly from Chinese factories to consumers' homes very quickly. And in doing this, rather than bringing it into the U.S. and putting it in a warehouse, it has avoided some U.S. custom laws and fees, right? Senator Marco Rubio is trying to look into this and change some of this legislation, which if it does, in fact, work, would make the prices of Shein's clothes higher and, you know, would make it less competitive.

I want to end this interview by asking you two to make a pledge. We're only buying Hermes from now on. Done. I'm just going to be covered in scarves. Yeah, because that's the only thing we can afford from Hermes. We can't even afford that, girl. What are you?

So we agree. No more buying Shein. And now an interview with someone from Shein. Yes. And now an interview with someone from Shein. So we are going to take a quick break, followed by my interview with Peter Pernodet, who I know we ragged on his company a lot, but he's actually pretty nice. Thank you.

Hey, Peter. Welcome to the show. Hey, it's great to be here, Yasmin. Thanks so much for having us on. I have to ask you, you know, you go on Shein's website and there are tons of products available, right? Tell me about the sort of manufacturing process for these clothes and how fast you can make them and how you come up with these designs so quickly. Yeah, absolutely. Our business model is something we call the on-demand model. And

What we do is we will make small batches of garments, typically about 100 to 200 pieces for the entire world in that initial batch. We'll then load those designs up onto the site and we'll see how our customers interact with them.

Are they responding positively to these new designs and these new features? If they are, we know, hey, we've got a demand signal here. Let's go back to our network of third-party suppliers and make more to meet what we expect demand will be.

This has a couple of great benefits for the business. One, it frees us from having to do seasonal collections. We're constantly updating our designs. We're constantly responding to trends. We're really constantly responding to our consumers.

The second benefit is that it means we have extremely low inventory levels. And so we waste virtually nothing. Our inventory levels are in the low single digits at best. And that means that we can pass on tremendous savings to our customers because we do not have to account for inventory risk in any of the garments we offer.

And so really, the entire purpose of the site is to give people lots of options to see what they actually want to wear at that present moment and then to produce only what we think they will actually purchase.

It's been a really groundbreaking, almost pioneering way of engaging with retail because it shifts the conversation away from supply-based discussions and onto demand-based discussions. You know, you just talked about the fact that that model can pass on savings to consumers. And something that I think is responsible for Shein's popularity is the fact that its products are pretty cheap, just like compared to going to a store and buying things.

I'm curious how you make clothing that is that cheap. Where are you saving money enough to like get clothing at that price to consumers? So there are two principal reasons why our clothing has such high value for money, we'll say.

The first reason is what I mentioned earlier is that low inventory waste. In a traditional retail model, you have to account for this sense that you'll have about 30% in excess inventory waste. And so you have to add that additional inventory waste into the cost of each garment you sell. And that increases the price of the garments and increases the cost of goods sold for those manufacturing models. Since we don't have that, we can offer more savings to our customers. Right.

The second principal reason is that we're online only. So we don't have a large physical retail network. We do direct-to-consumer shipping, and that realizes very high efficiencies and even more savings. So the combination of being online only with our on-demand business model are the principal reasons why customers realize savings. Now, there are other inputs, such as we have a very efficient operation, but those two are the main reasons.

Earlier this year, Shein had an influencer trip to one of its factories. And I would say, you know, it got made fun of online a bit. I think people, you know, certainly it was talked about a lot. I'd like to hear about what you were trying to show through that trip and just kind of hear about the approach and the experience of sort of organizing that.

One of our values as a company is to try to be as transparent as we can be. And we are responding to our customers who really want to understand how are these clothes made? Are they made in a responsible way? Are they made by a responsible company? And our desire to show that and our authentic desire to show that was why we did the influencer trip.

I think some people have criticized us for that. One thing that I don't think is fair is that the influencers themselves were personally attacked. And I think that they were sharing what they felt, what they saw, and an honest assessment from their point of view about our manufacturing practices. And so I don't think it was fair for them to be personally attacked. Now, whether or not

we met our goals of being transparent. I think that's debatable, but the intention was to show people that we are a responsible company, we're a global company, and we treat our suppliers with respect. And I think that was really our intent, and it remains our intent to this day, to share our supply chain and how it works with our customers.

You know, I meet with a fair amount of clothing brands and I found that clothing brands that work with, say, like factories outside L.A., for example, have obviously a higher cost of goods because the cost of labor is higher. Tell me about how you keep the cost of clothing low and also sort of compensate workers adequately. So I don't know anything about the brands you're talking about in that

in the garment space in Los Angeles. But what we try to do is to focus on building strong partnerships with our suppliers. We have a supplier community empowerment program where we invest both in the physical infrastructure of our suppliers, but also in the human capital component where we want to make sure that workers at supplier facilities have access to educational opportunities, access to safe working environments, and access to, in some cases, educational and childcare opportunities for their children.

And to us, when you're looking at garment production on a global scale, that really means that you have to have access to high quality suppliers and that those suppliers have to have access to the best people. And one of the things that we've seen is that our suppliers are actually compensating their garment workers much more than the average around the communities that they work in. And so, yes, while...

I believe a garment worker in China or Brazil or Turkey is likely paid less than a garment worker in Los Angeles. I do think that our supplier's compensation structures are fair and are designed to exceed the markets where they compete for labor.

You have, you know, obviously a crazy supply chain and you work with so many different suppliers. How do you vet them? So we have a comprehensive supplier surveillance program and we call it kind of know your supplier. And what we want to do is have visibility across the supply chain to make sure that we're working with high quality producers who have the capacity and capability to meet our quality expectations and our production expectations.

but also are going to abide by our supplier code of conduct and are going to share our values of things like having zero tolerance for forced labor. We have a couple advantages in this. One is we're a digital first company and we have a digitally empowered supply chain. So we have a high degree of visibility into where our suppliers are, who they are and what their capacities and capabilities are.

We also have a very comprehensive audit program where we're looking at suppliers and vetting them against a number of performance standards, but most importantly to me, to make sure they're not using forced labor, to make sure they're not using child labor, to make sure they're abiding by our environmental standards. The effect of that is to really drive change in the ecosystem.

If a large player like us is paying attention to these things, that helps the entire supplier network, the entire supplier ecosystem realize, hey, this is the new way of doing business. This is what it means to participate with a global brand like Shein. Is it fair to say that your sort of biggest consumer demographic is Gen Z? Like how old is the average Shein shopper?

So we don't actually collect age data, but from what we have studied in consumer measurements and consumer engagement studies that we've performed, we certainly have a core demographic of folks under 30, and we tend to skew female. But that doesn't always hold true. As we've launched more lines...

putting our motif line, which is more upmarket. We've seen strong demand signals from older millennials and professional women. We have seen great traction with our pet line, Petson, where people are purchasing pet apparel and pet accessories that we also sell. You know, it's really something that's evolving and our vision is to really reach everyone. So yes, we've been very successful with Gen Z and they're great customers, but really we want to go broader and bigger. So I'm excited about these new demand signals we're going to

I actually want to come back to you about and talk a little bit about business expansion. But first, I want to ask, you know, I feel like the thing that I think people get stuck on with Sheen, and I certainly have trouble putting it into context is like, on one hand, you hear so much about how consumers today care so much more about the environment, want to consume less, you know,

you know, criticize consumerism. On the other hand, a company like Shein, which is known for, you know, people posting Shein hauls on social media or whatever, you know, and buying a lot of product because it's so low cost is very popular. How do you think about those two factors? I think that as a business, you know, we're focused on demand. That's our model. And so if people are responding to these products and there is a demand for them, we will produce them. But we're not producing more than that.

And we're not forcing people to purchase things. I think as a broader question of policy, our view is that as we approach the problem of sustainability broadly, the key is going to be promoting concepts around circularity. So this would mean investing in recycling programs, investing in resale programs, investing in the longevity and durability of products globally.

but also developing the next generation of fabrics and materials that can be fully circular. And so I think that this is something that we play a role in and we have work to do in this area. But I also think it's going to take collective action with regulators,

with other brands in the industry and also with customers. So I do think, though, that there is a way in which self-expression and the ability to choose what you want to wear when you want to wear it can ultimately become compatible with a more sustainable business model. And I think that's where we see the industry headed. Do you use AI to design some of these clothes? Or how is AI integrated into the business?

So we don't use AI to generate any of our designs. We have a team of in-house designers and we also have Shein X designers. And these are 3000 independent designers, maybe new and independent voices who haven't found a platform with other fashion companies who can come and help design.

design clothes with us, they'll launch a collection and we will do the advertising, the shipment and the promotion of that good. They also get to maintain their intellectual property rights. So it's a great way to help launch a business if you're in the design space. So the combination of our in-house team and our ShanX designers are really the source of where we get our designs from. There isn't a AI system or algorithm that is going out and looking at designs. Now, we do use machine learning

on the back end to measure our audience engagement with the designs we do offer. So remember, we're making small batches, putting them up and seeing how people respond. That part of it, that does involve some machine learning, but it's not generative AI. We don't have a large language model sitting behind Sheehan. It's much more of a measurement tool. Sheehan started out as a place to buy wedding dresses originally, right? You've obviously expanded into...

so many different product categories. What can we look for next? So I think one of the things I'm really excited about in the U.S. is a deepening of our marketplace. I think as we continue to engage with brands and other potential marketplace participants,

I think the ability to offer our customers some really exciting options and some really attractive brands is only going to expand. So to me, that's very, very exciting. I think the other thing I'm really excited about is our deepening localization. We are really committed to building teams and capabilities, both from a logistics perspective and a contract manufacturing perspective, close

closer to some of our core markets. We're obviously continuing to expand our operations in the United States and elsewhere in the Americas. So to me, the combination of the launch of a marketplace and

and the localization efforts, which is very, very exciting. You know, you just talked about how maybe we need, you know, regulators to step in along with other companies to sort of figure out fashion sustainability problem. You obviously work across a bunch of different geographies. What are some of the regulations you would like to see? When I talk about regulations, I think I'm more interested in directional positioning. For example, the

pushing recycling products so that recycling capabilities are more available to customers. So if you wanted to recycle a garment that there was civic engagement to take that into your recycling bin the same way you would a plastic water bottle. I think also the idea of public-private partnership on funding some of these technical developments like...

How do we invest in chemical recycling? How do we invest in research and development to get new fabrics and new fibers available for production? I think those are ways in which we could really see some dramatic changes and benefits from a public-private partnership.

Are you a Shein shopper? Absolutely. What do you buy? This sweater is not from Shein, but I buy a lot of sweaters. We have pretty high quality sweaters. I wear a lot of Shein shirts. I like those in particular. My family wears a ton of Shein. So I have an almost two-year-old daughter and she is frequently wandering around in Shein clothing and having a great time.

a great time, but it's really high quality stuff and it's accessible and it's fashionable. It's really, I think, a great product mix. Do you think Shein is going to change the fortunes of like, you know, I'm thinking when I was growing up, we would shop when we wanted affordable clothes, we'd go to like an H&M, for example, right? Which has fairly inexpensive clothes and also big brick and mortar presents. Do you think Shein is changing the fate of those kinds of stores, if that makes sense?

I don't think so. I think that Shein is a new phenomenon. And I think that what you're seeing with Shein is something where customers can find products that they resonate with in the moment and engage with. That's the on-demand component. But I still think that there is a lot of room for physical retail, for the physical retail model itself to continue to thrive, even though that's not our model. I do think that there's room for that to thrive. I

I also think that the market is in a moment of dynamism. Some brands are succeeding, some brands are not doing as well. But I think as many brands embrace this concept of digital-first retail and really invest in being customer-centric, I think those brands will be successful, whether they're online or offline.

The thing with Sheen that is so interesting to me is the on-demand model makes so much sense. At the same time, because you're able to design things and produce things so quickly, you're like feeding people's want for new things constantly, if that makes sense. How do you kind of balance those two? I don't know if we're feeding a want for new things. I think that

People want to self-express. They want to have access to clothing that makes them feel good, that fits them, and that matches the occasion in which they choose to wear those garments. And that's all we're doing is we, like any other retail business, are offering products for sale. I think what sets us apart is our products are actually produced in response

to real measured demand. And so we don't have the same waste problem that traditional retail has been associated with. So I think we're sort of a new player in that regard. That makes a lot of sense. Well, I think that's a good place to end it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been wonderful to see you, Yasmin. Thank you for having us and look forward to talking to you again soon.

Okay, we are back with Liz and it's time to wrap up the show with Keeping Tabs. This is where each one of us shares a story, trend, or company that we are following right now. And Liz, since you're our guest, what are you keeping tabs on? Okay, so it's the holiday season and Hanukkah... It's the holiday season. Woo! Woo!

And that's as much of the song as I can sing. It was really good. And it really got me in the mood, Josh. Thanks for those bars. So we have like, we have a Hanukkah party this weekend. My husband's Jewish and it was my job to make the potato latkes, which is just something that I don't have time for. So a company that I,

love is Gold Belly. Love Gold Belly. Yeah. So you can order, you know, from any great New York restaurant, any famous restaurant in the world. We're ordering ours from Russ and Daughters in New York. Love that place. And they're shipping us 12 potato latkes. So that's going to be great. At the low, low price of $1,200.

Right. I mean, the cost of shipping was higher than the cost of the food. Every time. So that's kind of a bummer. But you know what? It means I don't have to go get the potatoes and shred them up

No, they do a great job with the I ordered some gumbo from New Orleans for my husband a couple years ago for his birthday. And it really like the containers they design are really innovative. Like I'm a fan. But I would say that it's like it's cheaper than, you know, like a meal out. Right. Like, I mean, I think when you when you like. I don't know. I'd say I would say it's worth it.

Like, I think that's the best way to put it. Fair enough. In certain cases, it can be worth it. So yes, anyway, that's my holiday hack for the season. It's just to like buy everything from Goldbelly, but then present it on a plate that makes it look like you made it. Exactly. And then you're golden. You know what I mean? Josh, what are you keeping tabs on? Well, truly on brand for me. I think we have to, and I won't belabor this point, but George Santos, first,

now former congressman and newest board member of OpenAI. Oh, yes! Claiming has been expelled from Congress. It's the end of an era that lasted a year. Truly the main character of 2023, George Santos. Some much needed levity in the apocalyptic hellscape that is Washington, D.C. politics and in the House of Representatives right now.

but just pour one out for George Santos. But just like the audacity of using donor money to like buy porn, basically. Oh yeah, OnlyFans, Botox. I only respect that shit.

I only have respect for that man. Wild. And then he started a cameo. And I nearly bought Yaz a cameo of George Santos. I'm so sad you didn't do this. It was $75. You could have expensed that shit. You could have expensed that shit.

It went up to $200, like $150, $200. I was like, oh, that's too much. $75 for a cameo from George Santos. Very cheap. Relative to like Kevin from The Office. Yeah. But in general, I'm not dropping $200 on a George Santos video. I mean, you will have that forever to show to your grandkids. Do you remember who this was? Guys, by then, George Santos will be our president. Right, right, right. Yes, what's your keeping tabs?

So I have two. The first one is just a sort of serious, like very cute recommendation. There's a YouTube kids series called Gee Happy that is related to kind of Diwali and Indian culture. And it's just like...

Like ghee? Like the oil? Yeah, like ghee, like the butter. Oh, I love it. Oh, yeah, that's awesome. They're like kids series. They're sort of full episodes, but they're pretty short. I just think the characters are really adorable. There's like a cute elephant and there's like a girl in a lenga. Anyway, it's just like awesome. If you want to teach your kids more about culture...

They're sort of bite-sized. As a mom of, you know, an eight-year-old and a two-year-old, there's really not a lot of stuff in either of those categories of those ages that represent South Asian culture. Absolutely not. So I'm way down into that. Yeah, so ghee happy. This sounds way better than Christian kids' television, like VeggieTales. Yeah.

Was VeggieTales Christian? Oh, hardcore. Yeah. Wait, really? You need to go back and watch VeggieTales. Wait, so what were they? So the vegetable, was a vegetable Jesus? I don't think a vegetable was Jesus. Although it raises the question, if Jesus was a vegetable, what would he be? He'd be a cucumber and then he'd be resurrected as a pickle. That's awesome. Easy. So good.

Wow. So good. So the other thing I wanted to recommend yesterday, a really great profile of Michael Stipe, the lead singer of REM dropped in the New York times and REM, one of my favorite bands of all time, Michael Stipe turns out is just rich me. So the article, the article follows the fact that like he keeps planning on recording new music for a solo album. And then like either life gets in the way or he procrastinates too hard. So he's like, ah,

man, I was supposed to record some songs, but then a tree fell on my Tesla. And like, and then there's a point where he keeps quoting from this book and then the writer reads the book to like talk to him about it. He's like, yeah, I never finished that book. So,

If he does release new music, can it just be flute music like Andre 3000? Oh my gosh, that album is so awesome. Have you heard the song? I actually haven't listened to it. Oh my gosh, okay, yeah. I started listening to it yesterday. It's kind of unlistenable at some points, but there's one where he's just purring like a panther, the whole song, like in the background. It's like...

It's like, ha ha. And it's so, I mean, I think he was actually on an ayahuasca trip when he started thinking that he was like a panther or jaguar or something. But he literally purrs through the whole song. I mean, that is a work of art. Like, let's just hope that this solo album is like anything close to that.

The content around reactions to the album is gold. It's great. And then him being like, I don't have anything to rap about. I'm 48. What would I rap about? Colonoscopies? Yes, I would. If you wrote a whole song, Andre 3000, about colonoscopies. Relatable King. I bet it would be a work of art. I mean, I bet it would be so awesome and make colonoscopies cool and we would all go out and get one. Get on it, Andre. Michael's type in Andre 3000.

Relatable King. Where is the collab? Where is the collab? I need the woodwind collab between Michael Stief. Anyway, that's it for Most Innovative Companies. Liz, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Our show is produced by Avery Miles and Blake Odom. Mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. And our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review. And we will see you next week.