Hacking into the wellness industry with Fast Company's 'Future Me' Docuseries
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Welcome to the Most Innovative Companies podcast. I'm your host, Yasmin Gagne, joined, as always, by my producer, Josh Christensen. Hey, Josh. Hey, Yas. Josh, what is the craziest thing you've done in the name of, quote-unquote, wellness? Oh, I feel like I'm incredibly un...

Unwell? Unwell? Geez, I don't know. Yes, this is a hard question. Now I'm just going back through my mind and realizing how like my diet is just like coffee. You're like, I ate a salad once. Yeah, I ate a salad once. I occasionally go to the gym. I don't think I just, does chemotherapy count? Oh my God. I think that is like the true definition of wellness. I should say I'm fine, everyone needs it.

I'm totally fine. It's just a while ago. And I'm totally cool. I was about to message you while we were talking, like, are you okay? Which is really not smart. No, no, I'm totally fine. But thank you for your thoughts and prayers. Yeah, so we'll go eat a salad in chemotherapy. Hey, I can make the jokes. What about you, Yas? What have I not done for wellness? And by wellness, I mean vanity. Okay.

I actually did something crazy yesterday. A friend of mine did this and then gifted it to me for her wedding. But I went to this facial place called Skin Laundry. Oh.

Where they basically burned the skin on my face. It was very painful. I know this is an audio medium, but for listeners, it's just completely like, you know, Red Skull from the Marvel movies. That's the answer. I'm going to be honest, what you actually can't see, Josh, is that it's really crusty. Oh, God. And that does relate to what we're talking about soon. But Josh, before we talk about that, tell us about housekeeping. Yeah, we have two pretty big things for Fast Company today. First of all, and most relating to this podcast,

Submissions are open for the 2024 most innovative companies list.

This year, there are more categories and there will be more honorees. And we've included that application link in our show notes. So if you're part of an innovative company or a leader of an innovative company, check that out and apply. And number two, we just launched Fast Company Premium, which is our home for exclusive reporting on trend analysis, technology, business innovation, future of work design, all the great things that you know and love.

of Fast Company just even bigger and better and exclusive. So subscribe to Fast Company Premium. We also included a link to that in the show notes. So check that out. Later on today's episode, I'll be talking with Fast Company senior staff writer Liz Segrin and senior editor Amy Farley about how the direct-to-consumer food startup Daily Harvest sickened its customers. But first, biohacking.

What is it and why are people trying it? Here to help us understand more is Fast Company video producer and host of the new docuseries, Future Me, Emma Whalen. Hey, Emma. Hey, how are you doing? So, Emma, your documentary series is about your biohacking journey, and it just premiered. Yes. Tell me what that journey is and why you were so inspired to try it. Biohacking, as it was once put to me and I really liked it, is the art and science of change.

changing the environment around you and the environment inside of you to gain full control of your own biology. That sounds very academic. Yes. One thing I've definitely learned on this journey is that biohacking is not a one-way street. It is different for every person. And it all starts with understanding your own genetic makeup, your gut biome, what's going on inside of your body, but also most importantly, what's going on with outside factors. I

wanted to go on this journey because I've been sick for over half of my life. I have fibromyalgia. I have anxiety, clinical depression, you know, just a litany of unhelpful things. You know, working for a fast company, we see all these companies that are innovating healthcare. I kept seeing that

they might be able to help with some of the symptoms I was experiencing. So I decided to go and speak to a bunch of these specialists in California to really understand how biohacking can help people with chronic conditions. So what are some of the treatments you tried or spoke to people about? The main treatments that I've been doing are lymphatic drainage with a machine called Balancer Pro, which was initially made for lymphedema patients. And it's to help stimulate your lymphatic drainage to get

that fluid out of your body to help with inflammation. In Europe, it's so commonplace. Yeah, I was gonna say, don't you get like lymphatic drainage massages? I once tried to do lymphatic drainage massages on my face with limited success. Wait, wait, wait, I need what? I'm gonna ask a dumb question. What is lymphatic drainage?

So we have a lymph system. And I went to like this like two hour seminar to learn about the lymphatic system. So I could understand why this machine, which is like $40,000, what it actually is doing to benefit me. The lymphatic system is a system of fluid in our body and just kind of like blood is.

But the heart pumps blood throughout our body. The lymphatic system relies on muscles to move. So if you're stationary, if you're not active, it's not draining properly. And the only place that drains is right under the clavicle. So you really have to be stimulating it in the proper way to get drainage. And Josh is like, what? Oh, no. Is that why my clavicles are so bloated? Yeah.

This is real. This is like a real medical thing because the problem is when you hear about it, you're like, this sounds really goopy. But it's not. And the reason this device is so expensive, it is a medical device, right? It is for medical purposes, but it is approved for over-the-counter use. And so you can buy it, but...

Like Lady Gaga has three of them. Lady Gaga, fellow fibromyalgia sufferer. Exactly. And that's one of the things like as someone with fibromyalgia, Lady Gaga is running around and I was like, how does she have fibromyalgia? How? I don't understand. I can't do that stuff. But then you step into a machine like Balancer Pro and you're like, oh, okay. Yeah.

Did it really, did it change the way you felt? I started, I cried halfway through my first treatment because it was the first time I hadn't experienced knee pain in years. Wow. Yeah. So there are some things where you're like, you cross your fingers and you commit to a few months and you're like, hopefully I'm going to see my results. Balancer Pro, it's like you see it instantly. Are there any treatments that you tried where you were like, I don't really think this works or it's not for me? Yeah.

There have been a few. And I don't want to like talk bad about because again, it's like it didn't work for me. Yeah, but it could work for other people. But it could work for other people. But there's a company that does like touch therapy and it's a wearable device. It's supposed to help you with anxiety or concentration and it did nothing for me. I was like, no.

I occasionally get something called a vestibular migraine. It's like a migraine, but you just feel really seasick because it affects your balance system. Oh, God. Sucks. And it only started like two, three years ago. I never had it beforehand. But I tried wearing a device like a wristband for sickness and that was bullshit. Yeah. That did not work. I felt so stupid for thinking it would.

I've met people that swear by those types of things. And I tried it and I was like, I got nothing. Isn't this part of the risks here? Not the health risks, but there's a lot of, just in general, across industries, snake oil salesmen, for lack of a better word. Oh, 100%.

I will say the amount of snake oil in the biohacking and wellness industry is like is through the roof. I think one of the most disturbing forms of snake oil that I saw was a service that you pay for monthly. That's going to it recharges your quantum energy. What? And yeah, it recharges your quantum energy, which you need for just like an

I spent maybe half an hour trying to figure out what the device was. I couldn't figure it out on their website. And then I realized it's no device. You sign up with your name and your address and they send you quantum energy every month.

And I was like... We found my latest career pivot. I was seeing it advertised by, like, well-known people in the biohacking industry. And I was like, this is purely a scam. And especially because they were like, well, also, you can do the Go plan where the quantum energy will follow you wherever you go. And I was like, but there's no tracker. Quantum energy Go. I'm like, I don't...

So there are some things where I just am absolutely flabbergasted. But for the most part, if you look for modalities and tools and companies that are science-backed, there is so much science behind a lot of the stuff. And so anything that I've been doing, I've tried to really make sure that there is science behind it. And I think the coolest things that I've done is like brain training with the Peak Brain Institute. It was like night and day for me. What did that brain training entail? Yeah. Oh.

I actually miss doing it. And once I have another $2,500, I'm going to do it again. Did they hand you a Nintendo DS? No, that old game. No.

They send you a computer and they send you all these wires and you have like 24-7 access to coaches. And you basically, three to four times a week, you're putting these like nodes on your brain and you hook them up to this device and you go on the computer and you watch basically these like game sessions.

based off of the parameters that they've set for you. Like if you are having insomnia, they'll set certain parameters. If you're feeling anxious, irritable. And as long as your brain is behaving the way that it wants you to, it gets a reward, an audio reward and a visual reward on the screen. And then those rewards will go away if your brain goes off course. And you get permanent lasting results after three to four months. Did you find that for yourself?

Yes, I can say this with ease. The greatest thing that I've experienced in this journey. So I want to talk about the issue of access. You know that you just mentioned that cost $2,500. It sounds like the lymphatic drainage stuff was also expensive. I mean, tell me about how much all this costs.

I feel very lucky that I was able to do this docuseries because I wouldn't have had access to any of this. I just, it's out of my price range. And I'm guessing health insurance doesn't cover this stuff, right? Health insurance doesn't cover it. There are a few companies I found that do work with health insurance. Sometimes I was able to use my CareCredit account that I have with PeakBrain. But for the most part, the field of biohacking currently is unattainable for most people.

Did you sort of talk about that with specialists in the field? What did they have to say about making it affordable? I did. And it's actually fascinating. I feel like Laird Hamilton... The surfer. The surfer, yeah. I trained with him in California and talking to him, he was very quick to be like, I know how lucky I am. I know that I can afford what most people cannot. Like, I understand that. And he talked about...

some of the free things that you can do. Wait, tell us the free things. Like breath work. You don't have access to cryotherapy. Do a cold shower. And like he kind of walked through like the basics. Absolutely never taking a cold shower. I would pay a lot of money to get in a cryotherapy tank and I would never take a cold shower.

I'm telling you, I started out because I was doing sauna into ice baths for two months. And now after doing that, I take cold showers. Like I took a cold shower this morning. I feel like it wakes me up better and my body is well adjusted.

I'm listening to you and I just go back to the issues in our health care system writ large. People dealing with chronic pain and autoimmune disorders like yourself. One in 10 people have an autoimmune disorder. One in 10 people. And there's a problem with chronic pain that is not being addressed by our current health care system in an effective way. Well, our current health care system is built around treating symptoms. There's no preventative care. Preventative care is not even covered.

Yeah.

preventing the additional harm that our current healthcare system can cause down the road by just treating the symptoms instead of actually preventing illness. Well, Emma, it sounds like you tried a lot of stuff. To round this out, can you give us a sneak peek of what we can expect in the rest of the series? We're going to cover my brain training experience, which I absolutely, obviously, I love. Underwater fitness training with Laird Hamilton and Gabby Reese, which was the greatest experience

Of my life to be able to lift weights and hold my breath underwater way longer than I ever anticipated. We're going to be learning about stem cell therapies for pain relief, performance enhancement. We're going to get to go to the biohacking conference and see some really crazy, weird

fun tech. And during this entire process, I realized that I had to move up my apartment like very quickly. I had to get out of the current environment I was in before I could start biohacking. And yes, that's all in there as well.

That sounds really rough. And before we take a quick break, Emma, can you tell us where we can find Future Me? Yeah. So Future Me is on Fast Company on the Fast Company website. You can see it in the video section. And then it's also going to be up on YouTube. And we also have a TikTok channel for Future Me, which is Future Me Series.

All right, cool. Well, we're going to take a quick break, followed by my interview with Fast Company senior staff writer Liz Segrin and senior editor Amy Farley about what Daily Harvest recall and lawsuits reveal about how unregulated food startups are. It's a little upsetting.

So before we get into what has gone on with Daily Harvest, I want to give this story a little bit of context. Liz, I guess I'll start with you. Can you just tell me what Daily Harvest is, when it was founded, who the CEO is, and just give us a little primer on the company? Yes, absolutely. Daily Harvest is a direct-to-consumer food brand that popped into our world in 2015. And

And like many brands that were popping up at the time, it was focused on wellness and trying to give us foods that would help us increase the number of fruits and vegetables that we had in our diet. So when it first launched, it had cool smoothies that it would send out. And there were also other healthy products like soups and mini pizzas, which I particularly liked as a customer of this company.

So I think it sort of made a splash in the direct-to-consumer food world because it was really catering to young millennial consumers who were trying to eat a little healthier. And so over the last eight years, the brand has done really well. It's received...

four rounds of funding. And two years ago, it was valued at $1.1 billion, which makes it a unicorn. And it was doing pretty well. And it was a very popular and well-liked and successful startup until this big recall happened.

It's so funny to hear you talk about a company like they're a person. Yeah. You know, like cool, popular, well-liked. But I actually want to touch on something you said. You used the past tense when you talked about liking their flatbreads. Did reporting this story just put you off their products? That's...

To be honest, I was ordering food from them for a while. But I think, you know, over time, the idea of just eating vegan plant-based food every day was what sort of turned me away from that. And yes, indeed, after writing this story, I'm...

now just very conscious, not just of Daily Harvest's meals, but anything in my fridge that comes from a company that may be introducing new ingredients. And so I'm just kind of hyper-conscious now about all foods. I have to say as a non-vegetarian living in a household of vegetarians, I did have like a little moment of schadenfreude because this is a vegan food company.

And, you know, I was like, listen, these problems are all over the place. Even a company that is positioning itself as the most healthy and nutritious company can get it wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I always think of stuff going wrong for like Chipotle when it came to E. coli. But Amy, I want to take it back to the beginning. Like give us a timeline of the recall. Sure. Well, last summer people started noticing because people were

People on social media started pointing this out. And it was kind of interesting because one of the ways that Daily Harvest grew its profile was because it had a very sophisticated social media marketing plan. And it worked with a lot of influencers. It was also just really popular and had a very passionate fan base and subscriber base.

And they talked a lot about the products on social media. And so that's when people first started noticing that there was a problem, that there was something going on where customers were getting really violently ill from something that they ate from Daily Harvest. Those customers started coalescing on social media and on Reddit and really sharing symptoms. They started contacting

lawyers. At that time, also, they were reporting problems to Daily Harvest, and Daily Harvest was doing a lot of investigation. And to their credit, reaching out to customers as best they could to tell them that people were getting sick, please throw out this product. They just didn't know what exactly was making them sick yet. I think that is one of the mysteries that was sort of driving a lot of the frustration that customers had at the time, but also what

What's so interesting and frustrating about all of their experiences, the companies included, because they were working with a novel ingredient that hadn't been used in North America or anywhere else around the world, apparently. This ingredient called terra flower that seemed like a really great protein-rich thing that Daily Harvest could introduce into a product. And that's actually what was making customers sick. We still don't know exactly what it is about the terra flower that makes customers sick,

But they did identify that it was taro flour. They pulled their products, told all their customers as a direct-to-consumer brand, they were able to do that pretty quickly is to get in touch with customers, tell them to stop eating this stuff.

And then customers kept having problems. I mean, this was something that we noticed in our reporting, that it wasn't just that people got sick immediately. They were sick for quite a while because this affected liver function. And so doctors really had a medical mystery on their hands where they tried to figure out what was affecting customers, how they could help them. 39 customers ended up having their gallbladders removed from this. 133 went to hospitals and some 400 got sick and are alive.

I think around 300 or so at least are suing the company right now. Yeah, terrifying. I'm going to just back up and explain the specific product that actually caused this all to happen. You know, besides the soups and the smoothies and the little flatbread pizzas that they were making, they wanted to create a meat kind of substitute product using plant-based ingredients. And so they went to the test kitchen and they came up with this new concept, which was called a crumble product.

And so they had one of these nut-based crumbles, but they were looking to create...

crumble for people who had nut allergies. And so they developed this very specific product, which was the French lentil and leek crumble. They went through and looked at their suppliers' catalogs, and their suppliers recommended this terra flower. Terra is this plant that is native to South America and is commonly eaten there.

But terra flour basically takes the husk of the pod of the terra bean and grinds it down into a flour that is high in protein. And that protein-heavy flour was what was put into these crumbles.

You know, I understand you spoke to some customers who obviously experienced issues related to the recall. Can you tell me about the woman you spoke to? Yeah, absolutely. So her name is Ashley, and she was starting a new job as a social worker on a Navajo reservation. And, you

You know, she was so excited about this new career move. And she was also in need of vegan food because she had a health condition. And there just wasn't anything like that available in the small town that she lived in. And so then she discovered Daily Harvest as like this amazing solution where food would get delivered to her door and she could make it easily in this busy new job she was doing.

She ate the crumbles over the course of a couple of days, and she got really, really sick. Almost every part of her body stopped functioning. She had really bad stomach pains. Her skin got so itchy that she was bleeding from scratching. She was, you know, very constipated. Like, her urine was bright orange.

Everything was just not working, right? And then again, you know, she was living in this Navajo reservation. There wasn't, you know, a very big hospital there. So she took herself to the ER and they couldn't address her quickly. And so she went back to Ohio, which is where she had family. At that point, she was doing so poorly. And the doctors decided that she had to have emergency gallbladder removal surgery, which

which is, you know, as you can imagine, a deeply invasive surgery, a very traumatic invasive surgery. And so she did that. She had six different operations because, you know, after the surgery, apparently her wound got infected. And so it was just a very traumatic experience.

And you know, what's crazy is that this happened a year ago and talking to her today, she is not the same person. She used to be very fit. She used to work out a lot every day. Now she can't be up for more than eight hours. She needs to lie down after that point because her body is so weakened. Her whole body has like atrophied from this experience. And so she's doing a lot of different treatments like acupuncture and various types of exercise just to try and get back

you know, into good health, but it's a very slow going process. In the middle of all of this, she had to stop working and that resulted in her being unhoused for a little while. So we're talking about an ingredient that destroyed some people's lives, right? This is not just like a casual like stomachache that happened. There are many people who may never be the same after eating this. I-

I also think it's worth pointing out some of the conversation last summer when this was blowing up on, you know, social media and stuff was like, oh, these Instagram fitness influencers, you know, have had some bad food from this company. But in looking through the court documents, it was really clear that a lot of the people who were affected were turning to Daily Harvest because they were actually pretty vulnerable.

Like they needed vegan food because they had an underlying health condition that required them. Also, there were women who were breastfeeding and who had newborn children and they wanted to eat vegan because they thought this would be better for their children. And so Daily Harvest didn't just hit this kind of like...

people like to make fun of them, but like, you know, that fitness influencer community. Yeah. A lot of the people who were sent to the hospital and had bad experiences were really vulnerable. And I think the company has to answer for that. And we don't have universal health insurance in this company. So, I mean, in this country. So that's...

I think we do at Fast Company. We do have health insurance here. We have a union that insures that. Yeah, but for many people, this was hundreds and thousands of dollars of health care fees that they've had to pay for. So, yeah, it was bad. Amy, talk me through what kind of regulation goes around using new ingredients like this. Some of the article touches on this.

Basically, when a company wants to introduce a new food ingredient into the marketplace, if it is an entirely novel ingredient, they need to get pre-market approval from the FDA. They need to submit all of their documentation that this ingredient is safe. That's something that, you know, a company like Impossible or Beyond Meat would do because they're inventing these new ingredients, right? So they get pre-market approval. But a lot of companies introduce ingredients to the marketplace and they can use this

special designation that the FDA has called generally recognized as safe. GRAS is the acronym there. And they can use a GRAS designation to introduce a new product into the marketplace. They just sort of say, listen, it is generally recognized as safe. We have science that says that this is safe, or we have science that says, or documentation that says that this

has been widely consumed somewhere else, maybe not in the U.S., but somewhere else. Nobody's gotten sick over many years of people eating this. And so we can introduce it in the marketplace. They can get this designation. They can send that paperwork, you know, that science, those reports, that documentation showing that it's widely eaten and nobody's getting sick. They can send that documentation to the FDA and the FDA can review it and come back to them with questions. Or they can just

tell people we have that documentation. They don't actually need to ever send anything to the FDA. And tons of companies do this. They take advantage of this. A lot of companies in the supplement space do this. So listeners, beware dietary supplements, like protein powders, like be very careful. But also food companies do this, like Daily Harvest. And that's basically, as far as we can tell, what happened here with this taro flour. Daily Harvest supplier told Daily Harvest,

This product is generally recognized as safe. And so Daily Harvest put it into their food and released it to consumers. That documentation that shows that the scientific evidence that might show that it is safe, that exists nowhere on a public site, not with the FDA. It is something that the supplier and Daily Harvest are probably, frankly, hashing out with their lawyers right now. Do you think that this whole crisis is going to have any meaningful effect

in terms of changing laws or changing regulations? Sounds like Daily Harvest is also, you know, making some changes, but will it have any impact beyond that?

In 2016, the FDA made steps to, quote unquote, strengthen this grass oversight. And in doing so, it basically said companies that are going to self-certify for grass need to meet the same safety standards as companies that actually send their ingredients to the FDA for approval. But then the best they could do was just like, I'm literally quoting the FDA here, strongly encourage companies to inform the agency of their grass

I mean, it's an encouragement. So there's no enforcement here. I want to stress that the food experts that we spoke to said that this is like the tip of the iceberg about what's coming because there's so many startups in the food space and also in the supplements space. Mm-hmm.

They don't have regulatory oversight. They're selling directly to consumers. Often retailers will provide a backstop for food safety. Like they will check on, you know, making sure that the companies that are putting food on their shelves are, you know, up to snuff because they don't want a lawsuit on their hands, right? Like this is a really novel case. It's very intriguing because it involved this ingredient that nobody was aware of and it was a medical mystery. It's novel, but it like, it probably won't be for long. Oh.

Yeah, strongly encourage is what I used to tell my residents when I was an RA. I'd be like, I strongly encourage you not to smoke weed. Never worked. I strongly encourage my son to clean his room every night. It never happened. Well, great. This was great. Thank you so much, Amy and Liz. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

Okay, we're back with Emma and it's time to wrap up the show with our segment, Keeping Tabs. This is where each of us shares a story, trend, or company we're following right now. And Emma, since you're our guest, we're going to start with you. What are you keeping tabs on?

So it might not be like the most flashy thing, but have you seen the TikTok trend around the Grimace shake? Yes. No. I love Grimace. I'm on TikTok all the time. How have I missed this? You need to look it up. So like McDonald's brought the Grimace shake. You know, it's this kind of like banking on nostalgia. Do you know who Grimace is, Josh? Yeah, I know who Grimace is. I'm not a caveman. Just checking. Well.

Well, picture just Grimace blended up into a shake because it's a violently purple shake. There's this trend where basically they like take a sip of the Grimace shake and then cut to them like dead with the shake like splashed everywhere. I don't know why. I've been

I've been finding it very entertaining. I love that. Josh, what are you keeping tabs on? Oh, God. So, everyone, this is going to be very upsetting. This is more of an anti-keeping tabs. It's something I hate with a burning passion. And it has to do with two really annoying tech founders. I knew. I thought this would be yours. Oh, my God. I just have to... Talk about a classic white bald guy thing to bring up. Yeah.

Yes, but no, this is a public service announcement. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, look at me right now, or listen to me right now. Look at me right now, he says on a podcast. They're notoriously listeners to this podcast, I'm sure. Huge fans. Stop it. Stop it.

Stop it right now. Well, didn't Elon's mom prevent him from doing it or something? I saw something like that, but then Dana White's like, no, it's happening. We're going to charge $100 on pay-per-view. It's going to be the biggest fight ever. I don't know why Dana White became like vaguely Donald Trump to me, but like,

I need to speak directly to Musk and Zuckerberg. When you say cage fight, you mean they're going to get in a cage and literally fight each other? Yeah, dude. Yeah. I think they mean the octagon. I think it's going to be because Dana White's involved, so I'm there. It's the stupidest thing. These are two of the most influential people in culture and in the economy right now. They literally move markets. Yeah.

No one thinks it's hot either. I hope you realize that, Elon and Mark. I don't want to see. You're still nerds. Why?

Why on earth is this a thing? And the problem is that they think they're so like, especially Elon Musk, thinks he's so like cool and funny and people validate that. And it's just pathetic. But this person literally has so much sway over our daily lives. And also, how terrible do you have to be for people to root for Mark Zuckerberg to fight against you? Yeah, I know.

That's ridiculous. I mean, I've always been a fan of robots, though. So I think I would root for Mark Zuckerberg, too. Anyways. Stop it. Josh.

What's your keeping tab? Okay, my keeping tabs is I'm sure if you haven't watched it, you have at least heard of The Idol on Max. Sorry. Oh, I've heard of it. Oh, yeah. My God, that show is bad. Yeah. It's bad, and most things that are bad are funny, but the show is also a little bit upsetting, so it's bad and upsetting. That's such a dangerous combination. Yeah. Literally, How Did This Get Made is one of the biggest podcasts.

Totally. Because it's making fun of bad, like, we all enjoy watching bad things. We all like watching The Room. Like, Hemlock Grove is, like, the worst best show ever made. Yeah. Yeah. Like, just, like, gauzy, like, bad, campy, inadvertently, stuff like that. But when something's absurd,

upsettingly bad or just either that or painfully boring. That's just such a disappointing place. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, guys, this girl needs help and the show is bad. So actually the reason I brought up The Idol and Keeping Tabs is because it was literally announced today that the series was supposed to be six episodes long and it went $10 million over budget and they are now ending it at five episodes. Oh my god.

And you're like, what is in that sixth episode? If you know, my DMs are open. Sam Levinson. That show has been convinced Sam Levinson has never had sex in his life. Anyway, Sam Levinson, my DMs are open for you to tell me what the hell you did in episode six. There was like a video like 10 years ago, a YouTube video called It's Not Porn, It's HBO. And it's.

So relevant today. So, so relevant. I think we'll end there. That's what I'm going to go watch after this. It's not porn. It's HBO. It's not porn. It's HBO. That's it for most innovative companies. Thanks, Emma, for being here. Check out future me on FastCompany.com.

Our show is produced by Avery Miles and Blake Odom with additional support by our intern, Mariam Kipoitse. Mix and sound design by Tad Wadhams and our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review and we'll see you next week.