It's time to ban right turns on red lights
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Welcome to the Most Innovative Companies podcast. I'm your host, Yasmin Ghaniay, joined by my producer, Josh Christensen. Hey, Josh. Hey, Yas. Josh, I made it this week. You made it? Yeah, I'm officially a New Yorker. So I'd freelance for New York Magazine a little bit, but...

This week, they actually asked me for my opinion for the Best of New York page in the issue. Wow. So it's my 13th year in New York. Isn't the rule of thumb 10 years in New York and you're officially a New Yorker? I think. I don't know. I've lived in several crappy apartments. I think that does it. Let's go through the things. Have you had a rat infestation in an apartment? Yeah.

Yes, rats, cockroaches. I lived through Sandy. You lived through Sandy. You lived through the pandemic in New York. You didn't leave during the pandemic. Didn't leave. Have you sobbed uncontrollably on a subway train? Like every line. Blue line, red line. Yeah, two, three got hit especially hard because those were my college years. I think you've been a New Yorker for a lot longer than that, at least three years. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm on 10 years right now. One year and a half.

I went to high school in London and then immediately moved to Manhattan for college. Yeah, I sound like A, the worst. That is so fancy. I sound like a fucking nightmare. Never meet me. But also, I don't know how to drive. Anyway, so that is actually related to a segment that we are going to have shortly. But before we go on with the show, any housekeeping, Josh?

I did want to take a moment for a shameless self-promotional plug. So as many people listening to this may know, our sister publication is Inc. Magazine. Mansueto Ventures is our parent company. And I run podcasts for both magazines, Inc. and Fast Company. Last week, we had an Inc. narrative podcast series I've been working on for the better part of a year that I'm incredibly proud of called Computer Freaks. It's about the...

of the internet, namely how the internet we have almost didn't happen. It's a really...

Interesting, fascinating. I can't stop talking about the history of the internet with people. So I finally am so happy that it's like out of my head and into the world on this podcast. So please go subscribe to Computer Freaks on Apple, on Spotify. It's a six-part series. It's really terrific. Hosted by Christine Hauny Dare-Brien. And yeah, so that's my shameless self-promotional plug. Please go listen to it because I'm really, really proud of it.

Later on today's episode, Fast Company executive editor Mike Hoffman will chat with Jason Del Rey about his latest book, Winner Takes All. But first, pedestrian and cyclist deaths have hit their highest levels in 40 years. I can, like, confidently say I am not involved in those deaths. But there's one major way we could bring those numbers down, and that's by using the numbers we have.

And that's if we got rid of the law that actually allows drivers to turn right on red. Here to explain more is Fast Company contributing writer David Zipper. David is a visiting fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School. He focuses on road safety, climate change, and the future of micromobility, among other things. Hey, David.

Hey, thanks for having me. You know how sometimes you write an article and you're just like, here are my feelings, like I need to say this? And sometimes you're doing research and it comes up. Like, how did you come to feel so strongly about turning right on red? Well, I live in Washington, D.C., and I do drive sometimes. But my main way of getting around is mainly by walking and biking. Right. And especially if you're biking, it can be rather traumatic sometimes.

If you are trying to obey a walk sign and you come across a car that is at a red light, especially in Maryland and Virginia, D.C. is pretty good about restricting red on red, but Maryland and Virginia are not. You know, they're supposed to stop, but the driver edges into the crosswalk. You have to navigate around it and they might not see you. And I've not actually gotten hit in that situation yet, but it's an ongoing annoyance and a stress issue.

So when I saw some statistics about Right on Red and read a little bit about the history, I did start to get kind of pissed off, to be honest. I thought, this is really stupid. You know, you talked about how in the past there were just a few states out west who had this law, and now it's like every state has it because of some weird idea that it would conserve gas. I mean, tell me more about that.

Yeah, you're totally right. It used to be called the Western Right Turn back in like 1970. It was just a few states. Great. And that side of the country. Yeah, totally. Great. Yeah, exactly. But during the oil crisis of the 70s, the federal government was searching for every possible way to conserve oil.

And there was this idea circulating that, well, if we could just keep cars moving at intersections, that would mean that they wouldn't be idling and using gas as they idle. So let's push all the states to default to allowing right on red. And actually, believe it or not, the Congress threatened to withhold federal dollars for

from states that did not adopt right turn on red. And everybody caved. By 1980, every single state defaulted to right on red unless there was a sign up on an intersection saying you can't turn here. The only really notable exception, Yasmin, was actually your city, New York City, has long banned right on red. So I literally have not noticed this as a phenomenon. Yeah, I'm just...

and delighted you invited me on the podcast given that this story has nothing to do with your lived experience. I'm curious, is there a lobby involved in this? You know what I mean?

I mean, as far as I can tell, there was really not much thought put into this back in the 70s in terms of like the potential safety risks. We only really learned about that later. There's a well-known study from 1982 that showed that pedestrian and cyclist deaths on right hand turns shot up in the aftermath as states changed the rules. So the oil crisis ended like in the 80s.

And states pretty much universally kept right on red since then. There was once in a while efforts to restrict it. And that's when the lobbying comes out. That's when you have groups like AAA that start testifying saying, well, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, let's not get ahead of ourselves. And they come up with really sort of convoluted reasons why supposedly it could actually be safer to let cars turn right at red. I don't even understand the logic there. So AAA is basically like, look, we make money when things go wrong. Yeah.

It's so dark. You can ask them that, but AAA represents motorists, and motorists like being able to go faster, and that's why there is now, you're right, some force behind maintaining this privilege for motorists, even though the reason for the policy is the oil crisis is long gone. This is like some really fucked up trolley problem where it's not...

like pull the lever to avoid hitting person. It's pull the lever to avoid having to like pay a little bit more in gas per year. Yeah, that's nice. But do we actually, do we even know that this whole thing of it saves gas? Is there any data behind that now? First of all, I've never found evidence of that.

And furthermore, like all the articles I found of the last several decades about Right on Red don't even mention the gas savings. It's like we've collectively forgotten why we ever adopted this policy in the first place. So I have no idea the answer to your question. It sure is interesting. Now I'm getting angry.

I want to step back and like you obviously mentioned it a little bit, but just to be clear, why is banning right on red so important? Like when you say obviously saving one life is probably worth it. But but what kind of numbers are we looking at when we talk about reducing pedestrian and cyclist death? Sure. So you mentioned in the intro, Yasmin, that that we're at a 40 year high in pedestrian and cyclist deaths.

in the United States. So this is like a real crisis. And Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg refers to it frequently. So we need to find ways to reduce deaths. This is a tangible way to do so. The scale of the problem is hard to say because we don't have reliable data.

The best estimate that I could find actually comes from Toronto, where like in Canada, as in the U.S., right on red is generally allowed outside of Montreal. That's the one big exception. But in Toronto, the estimate there from the city was that right turn on red was involved in about 2% of pedestrian deaths and 4% of cyclist deaths. So if you scale that across the United States, I crunched the numbers and you end up with just under 200 deaths per year.

But let me say, I think that underestimates the scale of the problem because you're going to have a lot more people injured than you will killed. We have no idea how many people are going to be injured. And this is something that you guys might have experienced yourselves when you're walking or biking outside of New York, is that it's just stressful because you never truly have...

The right-of-way, even when the walk sign is beckoning you forward, you'll have cars that are entering in to the crosswalk, and you always have to keep your guard up. So I think that there's actually a tremendous amount of well-being that we would gain from restricting right-on-red that goes beyond saving lives, as important as that is.

Right on red laws kind of differ throughout some U.S. cities. Obviously, New York is best. We don't do that. How does that inconsistency affect traffic safety? So I think it is confusing. You don't know from block to block without checking and looking up whether right on red is allowed or not in a given city. And those rules really can change on a block to block basis.

And there's really not rhyme or reason for whether red on red is allowed on a given intersection. And that can confuse really everybody. That's why when I talk to some city leaders in places like Cambridge, Massachusetts, who have

banned Right on Red recently, they said, you know, we just want to provide a simple, straightforward blanket approach so that everybody could just breathe easy, like knowing what the rules of the road are. So you just mentioned the city leaders in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I'm curious, you know, who are some other city leaders who are addressing this? And what do you think is the right approach here? I think the good news is that a growing number of

city leaders are starting to see the problems with the status quo. So in the last year alone, not just Cambridge, but Seattle and Washington, D.C., Ann Arbor, Michigan have taken steps, actually not even taken steps, they've passed bans right on red, at least in the downtown, if not across the entire city.

And you're seeing efforts in other cities as well. I hope that that continues. The fact of the matter is, given the polarization we have in Congress right now, I don't see the federal government taking this on as a cause as much as I wish that it would. Blue states are much more open to policies

Protecting the interests of cyclists and pedestrians, they're much more empathetic about the needs of cities or interests of cities. And then you get red states like Indiana, where the blue city, Indianapolis, is wanting to restrict right on red and actually passed an ordinance to do that.

And I'm not making this up. A Republican state legislator in Indiana introduced a bill that would restrict or actually ban Indianapolis and only Indianapolis among all cities in Indiana from touching right on red rules.

My husband is from Houston. He loves to drive. And I remember he was telling me that Houston was looking into installing more speed cameras and the people revolted. They were like, do not take away my freedom. I actually don't even know that it's legal to install speed cameras in Texas. Texas is one of the big examples. I've spoken to the head of transportation in Houston. But like that's a blue city, you know what I mean?

No, totally. It goes beyond transportation. It's actually a really serious problem that really is all about the cleavage of our society these days. There are so many cities in blue states that really could do this, where the state legislature isn't going to mess it up. And Maryland or Michigan or Minnesota or California or Massachusetts. So I really do think that there's a chance to do good here. In fact, after the story came out last week in

in Fast Company, I got a message from someone I know who works for the city of Boston who was like, "Yes, this is exactly right. We just update our rules to make Write on Red a lot more difficult throughout the city." And I think that's terrific. I feel like the word is getting out and I think that there's a lot of progress we still can make.

even if the red states do make it hard to provide safety benefits for urban residents there. I will say this. You can't overestimate the effect of a good, catchy slogan on either side. Like, right on red sounds really good, but... So you're saying we need a good slogan on the other side? Yeah, I'm saying you need some marketing help. Gosh. Ah.

All right. I will have to look further into that. You're asking the wrong person here. Josh, do you have thoughts on that? How about don't kill people on red? That sounds great. Too long. Too long. No alliteration. We're going to take a quick break, followed by an interview by Fast Company executive editor Mike Hoffman with Jason Del Rey. His new book, Winner Sells All, is about the rivalry between Amazon and Walmart and the traditional retail giant's attempts to reinvent itself.

So this is a really fascinating book about two behemoths, right? And how they've been on a collision course and they've been rivals for years. One of the things that I think is interesting is that you sort of trace this back to 2016 and that that was a pivotal year when Amazon and Walmart kind of realized that they were headed for each other. Can you talk about what was happening in that year and why that was such a meaningful moment for them?

Obviously, there's a longer history of their rivalry, but for a long time, Walmart sort of treated e-commerce as a side project. And the results said that. But in 2016, Walmart finally made a big, big bet by spending $3.3 billion to acquire a young company by the name of Jet.com. With that acquisition,

Walmart also installed Jet.com's CEO and his team, so the CEO, Mark Lurie, to run and revamp Walmart's U.S. e-commerce operation. And from that point forward, Walmart's metabolism in e-commerce sped up. And there was just more, for someone covering the two companies, more excitement in this battle because it felt like

Walmart was finally, finally taking this space seriously. It's interesting, right? Because you could imagine Amazon looking around the world and saying, yeah, our biggest rival is going to be Apple or it's going to be Google. But they didn't. They sort of found Walmart as their main rival. And part of it is because they're sort of in that battle for the wallets, as you described. Talk about how they view their customers. Do they have the same customers? Did they back then? Do they now? You know, depending on

what part of Amazon you're talking about and which executive you're speaking to, you know, they may cite other companies

rivals. But going back to the very early days of Amazon, first and foremost, they were concerned with Walmart. And that was because Walmart's huge store network and obvious experience in the space threatened what Amazon thought they were best at, which was delivering you products at a good cost and conveniently. And so Amazon executives for a long time were worried that Walmart would

someday take advantage of that store network to do same day delivery or same day pickup. And then after about 10, 15, 20 years, you know, Amazon stopped worrying a bit and

But this moment, this 2016 moment, caught the attention of a lot of people all the way up to the C-suite of Amazon and sort of renewed this rivalry. Again, I think Amazon was worrying about different parts of the business, different big companies, both in tech and beyond. But this was a turning point, and Amazon was forced to sort of pay attention again to this old rival. So what role did Jeff Bezos play in all this?

As we get into the late 2010s, Jeff's focus on Amazon sort of wandered a bit, right? You know, he's focusing a lot of time on his rocket company, Blue Origin, and

Later in that decade, he had a new love interest, which I think we all know too well by now. I think Jeff and the whole executive team, they knew Mark Lorry, this entrepreneur, well. He had sold Quidzy, the owner of diapers.com, to Amazon around 2010. And so when he

ended up at a rival company, I think everyone took notice. I think, you know, I don't know how many people remember jet.com and it's short, but wild life as an independent startup. But at the very beginning of that journey at jet.com, Mark Lorian team, they were showing Amazon's prices on their site and

And they were showing that they could match or beat them. And so I know 100% that Amazon's executive team were paying attention. I think Jeff Bezos was paying attention for sure when the Walmart jet deal happened. And I think, you know, I don't know that they were afraid, but I think they sat up in their chairs and thought,

This may be a more serious rivalry once again. Part of it was like there was this war for talent, right? There was like a war for logistics executives. There was a war certainly for digital e-commerce executives. And how did that play out? It sounds like at first people were cool with it. And then later on, they started to get much more, you know, much more aggressive with each other.

Yeah. So just to go back in history a bit, I mean, Amazon back in the late 90s, just as they're building their company, they start recruiting a host of Walmart executives. It leads to a lawsuit back in the late 90s by Walmart. At first, they were kind of cool with some of the people going and then they were like, oh, yeah.

Whoa, like what's happening here? And so they sued Amazon, alleging theft of trade secrets. That ended up settling, but we see at different points over the next couple of decades, periods of time when one would poach more from the other. And so in the late 2010s, while Mark Lorre and team are running Walmart e-commerce, they

they start poaching a whole slew of executives from Amazon and mainly across the business, but in the logistics and transportation part of the business, especially. Some of my most favorite anecdotes in this book are about sort of the culture clash of Amazon folks coming into Walmart. They're brilliant at what they do, which is grinding efficiency out of these warehouses and shipping and all of that.

They think the Amazon way can work in Walmart and some of them find out quite quickly it cannot. Another interesting point here is these jet executives, you know, they were used to competing with Amazon as an independent company. They find out a few years in at Walmart that,

man, we need some help on the e-commerce warehouse side. And where else are you going to look but Amazon? So again, for someone who loves rivalries and narratives about companies trying to adapt to new eras, there's a lot here about the challenges of

absorbing leaders from a successful company and then trying to build them into your own culture. So that was one thread in this book that I was excited about throughout. Well, speaking of culture, right, Walmart has a famous culture. You know, it's one of the most influential cultures in all of corporate America. And Amazon as well has this incredibly famous culture. You know, everything is written down. It's known to be a very aggressive culture. And

I'm curious, like having looked inside both companies, like how are they the same and how are they different? And how did people who might have gone from one to the other, how did they fare when they ended up in the new culture? I'll start with some similarities. So both companies share, and this started with Walmart, a real belief that frugality should be a core principle, core to how they operate.

And not necessarily frugality in terms of how they serve customers, but frugality in terms of how they run their own operations, right? That if we're spending exorbitant amounts of money on our employees or our offices, we

that cost is in some way being passed on to consumers. And that's just, especially at Walmart, that was a no-no. So frugality was one key one that Jeff Bezos borrowed from Walmart in the early days. Another similarity, a bias for action. So that's one of Amazon's leadership principles to this day. And it was something that Sam Walton at Walmart believed very much in. So that's basically the idea that

You can hem and haw for months over a decision, trying to get the perfect 100% correct decision. But...

especially in competitive markets, more times than not, moving quickly after you have a pretty good idea of the right decision is the best bet, right? If you're not moving, you're not making change. You're not innovating. So those are some of the similarities. Some of the differences, I think, and this one came through in conversations with Amazon execs who went over to Walmart. They

Bezos and other Amazon leaders to this day, Andy Jassy, the current CEO, they preach about being focused on customers and not competitors. So I think it's something along the lines of customer-obsessed, competitor-aware, something along... Do you buy that? At different times...

I do. I do mostly. And I'll tell you why. You know, I had a lot of conversations with these Amazon executives who were maybe not talking on the record and they are giving me candid, you know, candor. And they say they go into Walmart in different parts of that org and they're just blown away about how common it is for executives to talk about Amazon, like day to day, bringing up Amazon. Did you see this? Did you see that?

And there were some that really thought that harmed Walmart's efforts in some ways over the last, call it five, six years, that you should be aware of what Amazon is doing. But if you have this obsession, as some of them termed it, your focus is not where it needs to be. Now, you asked again, do I believe that at Amazon, customer obsessed? I don't.

I think it's still mostly there. Although in the past, you know, Andy Jassy, the current CEO, he used to run AWS, started that business with a team and then grew it into, you know, tens of billions of dollars a year in revenue. I always found it funny that at their big events, he would call out some competitors and it did feel a bit un-Amazonian. And so, yeah,

I think they really try hard to keep it that way. I think as they've grown in both industries they target and also employee size, it's become a little more difficult. The title of your book, obviously, Winner Sells All, implies that there might be a winner or that at least the two companies, each thinks that they have a path to winning. Knowing what you know and looking at the companies now, do you have a sense that either of them is gaining ground on the other or either of them is on their way or slipping?

Listen, I think if Walmart doesn't make a big move, and the move they made, at least in the U.S., was the JET acquisition, I personally think they're in a much worse position today than they are back then. That said...

Their current CEO, Doug McMillan, who I have a whole chapter about, which I really think for one of the most important business people in the world, most powerful, I still think he's pretty undercovered as both a person and as a leader. I think if the jet deal didn't happen, perhaps they make another big bet. But as I tell it in the story, their head of corp, Dev, the way she pushed for the jet deal was she said to Doug and others, if we don't do this, we're

What is our move to speed up and close ground? And so I'll just go back to, I think Walmart's in a much worse position today. Pre-Amazon layoffs, I probably would have said that Amazon has sort of expanded their lead, you know, both in consumer psyche and just in general over Walmart. And all that AWS profit, right? Like that's not so bad either. And listen, and we haven't even talked about that. You know, Walmart has...

really tried hard in the last year or two to expand into new businesses. So advertising is a big one. You know, I was just at an event recently for brands that want to advertise on Amazon and Walmart. And it's, it's a big growing space.

Healthcare is another. Logistics is another. And so Walmart is now, over the last couple of years, diversifying their business. But a lot of these things have now become table stakes. So just to try to round out and actually answer your question, I've been looking over the last decade for a space where Walmart is doing something that's digitally enabled, at least, future-looking, and it's not just following Amazon from behind. And

There was investment they were about to make a couple of years ago in TikTok. And a lot of people thought that was ridiculous, like this hot new video app and this old school retailer. And I actually, you know, as someone who likes business innovation stories, I was excited by it. It looked like one case where Walmart was trying to look ahead at social commerce or live video commerce and try to lead.

And that deal fell through when Trump lost and the Biden administration came in. But it could happen again as the future of TikTok is up in the air. I think they're both sort of still battling hard. I think, you know, Amazon may have

slightly less of a lead than they had years ago. But what really excites me or keeps me looking forward to future battles in this space is what upcoming company might someday upset, disrupt these two. And so I name a few at the end of my book, everything from Instacart to Shopify to Shein to

And it's hard to imagine one of them doing it now. But like Amazon came out of nowhere, you know, 25, 30 years ago. I'm hopeful for competition in this country, competition for labor, that 20 years from now we'd have this talk and we'd be talking about a new company. Cool, cool. Well, Jason Del Rey, thank you. It's the author of Winner Sells All, Amazon, Walmart, and the Bell for Our Wallets, which is due out June 20th. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. So much fun, Mike. I appreciate it.

All right, we're back with David Zipper, and it's time to wrap up the show with our game Keeping Tabs. This is where each one of us shares a story, a trend, or a company we are following right now. And David, since you are our guest, what are you keeping tabs on? Are you guys following the craziness with...

like self-driving cars in San Francisco and how the city is freaking out about it? A little bit. But you're just on a traffic bend. That's like your thing, yeah. It's a little bit my thing. I will say I am interested in self-driving cars as a non-driver. There you go. See?

It's all about mobility. Everyone wants mobility. No, so San Francisco, obviously, like, you know, the core city of the Bay Area where Silicon Valley is. So that's the place where that's the highest density of...

self-driving cars or robo taxis from companies like Waymo and Cruise that have been navigating the city streets and providing basically taxi rides that you can summon them from an app. So what's wild is that now these two companies, Waymo and Cruise, are asking the state to give them carte blanche to deploy as many cars as they want 24-7 throughout San Francisco and

And the city is extremely worried about this. And so they've basically shared some of the information about all the messes that are being created by the very limited number of self-driving robo-taxis in San Francisco so far. And it gets wild. Like, there are anecdotes of vehicles running over, like, fire hoses that are in use at emergencies. Sorry.

And there are, yeah, I know, yeah. A little bit funny. Well, you see some of these photos and videos where, like, you literally have, like, cops and firefighters yelling at the self-driving car to leave emergency scenes. I mean, it's not funny, but it's also really funny. I mean... It's a very serious thing of, like, putting out a fire and this Tesla just drives through. And it's just like, what...

What is happening? And there's just someone in the back. Like, I'm just trying to get home. No, I mean, it's just, it's totally absurd and surreal. I think we agree with that. And you're right. Like, some of it is sort of comical, but some of it gets really serious. Like, there's examples of where emergency response times were elongated because the fire trucks couldn't actually get to where they needed to go because of the self-driving cars. And so what I find interesting about this as a developing story is, you know, it's basically like right now is the state is deciding whether to give carte blanche

to whether self-driving cars will be allowed from Waymo and Cruise to be throughout the city 24-7. And it seems likely that they probably will be allowed. And based on the mayhem on those streets, from what I'm reading, I am quite curious to see what happens next and if we're going to be encountering issues like this, really, like across the whole country.

Josh, what are you keeping tabs on? I'm keeping tabs on the upcoming Supreme Court rulings that are probably going to be coming down, namely on student loan debt and affirmative action, which are both hugely important to particularly college goers. Well, obviously, the one most relevant to me now is my mountains of student loan debt after getting two degrees after that. But just to remind everyone, Biden's executive order is, oh, God, that was over a year ago now, I think.

It's been a while, but it was going to eliminate $400 billion in total student loan debt somewhere around that ballpark. And that is being decided whether that is constitutional or not. Repayments will restart in October. And I think a lot of people are panicking about that. And I think a...

Positive ruling, if I can editorialize in this, will assuage a lot of those fears from people. So that's what I'm keeping an eye on. And then the second one, I think we have a pretty good idea that affirmative action will be struck down.

down in the upcoming ruling. I do think I want to say, again, to editorialize everyone who's calling out that we shouldn't have race play a role in college admissions. Well, we have for a long time in favor of white people, and that's why affirmative action was in place to begin with.

Word, that makes sense. Now, I know that Trump University has really bankrupted you. Really has. Those student loans from... Those loans have been following you around. Yeah. And I get it, man. I majored in tax fraud and...

And wire transfer fraud. Those were my two key concentrates there. It's a minor in hair care products. It's a minor in hair care products. True. My keeping tabs is this submarine that was like...

looking for the Titanic that has just disappeared. It is so crazy. I know it's really upsetting for a lot of reasons, but the thing with this, and I was thinking about it this morning, is when you're a kid, you think something like the Bermuda Triangle is going to play a significantly bigger role in your life than it does as an adult. But I guess the submarine story is an example of the

stuff you read about when you're a kid actually happening. You know what I mean? And it's, you know, it's got all the elements that I love in a story, which is like,

And obviously, like, I hope these people are okay. I hope their families are, you know, doing okay. Like, I have empathy here. But, like, rich tourists getting lost is just, like, the best type of story out there. It's wild. Like, you paid $250,000 to get on a submarine and that submarine got lost? It's just crazy. I mean, you think about all of these, like, factors that went into this. And I think I was reading a story where, like, some of the navigation controls on the submarine were...

were like Logitech cheap, like off the rack controllers. This may not be completely true either, but it was like trending on Twitter yesterday that it was like a PlayStation controller being used in it. I hope that's not true, but it's a ridiculous story. Sounds like someone with my navigation skills was... Yeah, it's just... Anyway, that's it for...

What a great, weird place to end the episode. So strange, but that's okay. It's about mobility. It's like vaguely on theme. Stop turning right on red. Stop turning right on red. Make a stand. Submarines are actually kind of dangerous. Anyway, that is it for Most Innovative Companies. Thank you for joining us. Special thanks to David Zipper.

go read his article. It'll be in the show notes too. Our show is produced by Avery Miles, mix and sound design by Tad Wadhams, and our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review, and we'll see you next week.