Come Out, Come Out, Wherever You Are
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Listeners, we know that many of you, like the three of us, have been overwhelmed by the graphic and devastating images out of the Middle East this week that have broken our hearts. The ongoing crisis surrounding Israel and Palestine has entered a new phase, and it sadly appears that the conflict within the region will only intensify.

We at VibeCheck know that conversations related to Israel and Palestine always come with charged feelings, histories, and perspectives. And social media this week has been proof of that.

But today, as we continue to monitor the situation and figure out how to cover it here on Vibe Check, we want to hold space for the pain that so many families are dealing with due to the events over the weekend and the past 75 years. And we want to let each of you know that we love you and that our thoughts are with each and every one of you. Chicas. Senoritas.

Hola. Bon dia. Bon dia. Hi. Hi. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford, and you're listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

What a week. So many vibes. So much to talk about. Great show for y'all this week. It's National Coming Out Day. Hey. I like that. Hello. Nice to meet you. This week, we're going to talk about how the act of coming out has changed over time.

And then later, we will talk about someone who has got the exact opposite energy of all those warm, fuzzy feelings. Drake. He's out with a new album. It's called For All the Dogs, which, fitting...

And we've got to talk about Drake doing what he does really well, which is kind of being a brat and a misogynist. We'll talk about what's going on with Drake and what it says about the culture right now. But before all of that, as we always do, got to start out seeing how my sisters are feeling, how our vibes are. Zach, what's your vibe right now this week?

I'm, you know, all over the place. Beyond that, I'm great. Last night, I got to see a concert I've been waiting for all year.

And that was the Jesse Ware concert. You went? Oh my God. A friend hit me up and was like, you want some tickets? But I was busy. Was it good? It was great. A lot of people, I think, had tickets and didn't go because the venue wasn't very full. Oh, what venue was it? It was at the Palladium in Hollywood. Poor thing. Which is a beautiful, beautiful venue. I saw Robin there a few years ago, which he did Honey. And it was like life changing. Oh, I love that album.

But she was there. It wasn't a full house. She has another show tonight as we're taping. So hopefully tonight will be busier. But she's wonderful live. She sings like she sounds on the record. It was just a really phenomenal show. But what I do have to say is I have a note for our sisters that are going to the Jessie Ware show or any dance show these days. And that is if you went to the Beyonce Knowles-Carter show and you bought that silver outfit for that show and you wore it there and took the photos...

You don't have to recycle it for every other show because we look different. Why are you so mean? Wow. It just makes no sense to wear a cowboy hat. Isn't Jessie Ware also disco? Okay, maybe the cowboy hat. She's disco. She makes disco albums though. Jessie Ware makes disco albums. Jessie Ware is from South London. Why are y'all wearing cowboy hats?

- Look, people spent a lot of money on those. - They did. - Also, you know, I'm being like, I'm making a joke because I was proud to see, you know, people recycling, you know, in a moment in which fast fashion is extremely- - It's called an aesthetic crossover, Zach. - Yeah, it's really something. Well, Beyonce's reach has really gone far 'cause it's reached into South London, disco music. But it was fun to be dancing. I feel like people are now dancing more at shows

post-Beyonce. I think we can measure concerts pre-Beyonce, post-Beyonce. Post-Beyonce people are more alive in their bodies. So it was nice. But I was just like, I was there and I looked around and I was like, why do I feel like I'm in Club Renaissance? Judgy, catty, mean. Oh, these guys.

Wow. Let people wear their clothes. Let people wear their clothes. Fine, fine, fine, fine. You win this. But it just, I had to bring it up because it's the first show I've really been to since. Wait, Zach, you gave me one of the silver tops I wore to one of the Beyonce shows. Am I allowed to wear it again ever? Because I still have it. You can wear it. He's going to wear it to your wedding. Listen.

Oh, but that's my vibe. I guess I'm being judgy today with love. And, you know, I'll probably regret it tomorrow. But today I'm feeling that type of way. We accept it. We accept it. Saeed, what's your vibe?

My vibe is cute, comfortable, cozy. It is like 60 degrees here. The leaves are starting to change in Ohio. And so it just feels very autumnal. Over the weekend, I got to do an author talk at the Columbus Metropolitan Library. You stay author talk and I love it. I stay author talk and I'm an author and I love to talk.

I love to talk and if I get paid for it bam it was really fun but also yeah I haven't gotten to do an event in Columbus in a minute and so it's really fun when friends neighbors the girls the gals can like come out and like come see me and so that was cool but also a lot of vibe check listeners came that's awesome

Some of them gave fan mail. I think it's Misha. Misha, thank you for... Misha gave us like a postcard and a letter. Oh, that's really... That's so nice. I'll like send screenshots to the group text, I guess, to show you. But also some other folks were there and they gave me a Snickers bar. Just imagine you're like signing copies of Alive at the End of the World and then you see someone approaching you with a Snickers bar. And just like the way... Did you lose it? Before they even said anything, the way I just started...

laughing and then they're laughing and the woman was like look I tried to find a king sized bar stop so like now my laughter is like echoing throughout this beautiful library and she was like it seems like they don't actually make king sized bars they make share sized snickers share sized bars it's just that funny when

So that was just so fun. Thank you to everyone who came out to the event, especially the Vibe Check girls. Thank you for your notes and your love. So that's my vibe. Here's what I'll say is I think the thing I enjoy about autumn, about when it starts, is I feel this pull inward. I feel this sense of joy.

As for me and my house. And I enjoy... I enjoy summer. It's been fun to be out and about and all over. But it's also nice to value the interior, the privacy, and just like...

This is where I am. I'm here. I'm here with my neighbors. I'm here with my girls. I'm actually going to D.C. this weekend to celebrate a neighbor's birthday. You know what I mean? Love it. That's the vibe. We're cozy. We're comfortable with our people. Sam, how are you? I mean, right now my vibe is I'm so grateful for public services like Trash Pickup because the trash man is coming by right now. I didn't know. That's what I was looking at. It's always like, oh.

I like that my taxes are paying for that. Sanitation. I thought that was a metaphor for a second. Yeah. You were like, I got some people I need to get rid of. Garbage truck coming by. We love a social service. Wait, can I say something? I can't believe I'm saying this on the show. I realized lately that my recycling guy, because I see him at the Starbucks, I saw him at the CVS, but the guy that drives the recycling truck, fine. Fine.

Fine for no reason. It is wild. And I like stop every time and I just got to take a moment. Have you said hello? Thank you. Not yet. I'm working up the nerve, but it's just, it was like shocking because when I first saw him, I thought he worked at the Starbucks because he looked very like hipstery Starbucks guy. And then I saw him at the CVS. I was like, wait, no, he doesn't work here. He actually is a recycling guy. He works for the city. Okay. Come on tax dollars. So anyway, I agree. And look, people here, my neighbors, y'all know exactly who I'm talking about.

Our Neighborhood Postman is

That brother, he's a cat daddy. He is so... I haven't heard cat daddy in a while. When he finally saw me enough that I started to get like, it's always the what's up. Shivers. I guess I got to start going outside when the garbage people come. I need to start making... Shout out to our public employees. That wasn't even my vibe. I just saw the truck go by. I'm fully distracted. My vibe this week is trust no one.

My vibe is trust. No one. Because Doja Cat let me down. You know, I was just singing her praises. Speaking of trash. On this show and my other show, Into It. I was like, I love Doja. I love her energy. I love her look. I love her flow. But just a few days ago, she got in trouble because she was on Instagram posting a photo of her wearing a t-shirt featuring Sam Hyde on the front. Sam Hyde.

Sam Hyde is a comedian who was affiliated with the neo-Nazi website Daily Stormer. And I want to clarify here and point out that this is really, really strange for Doja to do because she is half black and half Jewish. All this to say, I've stopped streaming her music and I'm not going to be doing so until she explains this or apologizes for it. I'm sorry for recommending her and trust no one. That's it.

Okay, so this brings a lot of thoughts. I mean, one, you know, it's interesting because he's consistently called a comedian, comedian Sam Hyde. That is always how I see him referred to. But it's hate speech comedy. You know, I lightly Googled because, look, I know my FBI agents are alert and ready and on me.

Okay. So I'm not trying to get too deep in there. But I looked and I was like, where are the jokes? Because literally when I would try to find direct quotes from his, I guess, sets, it was just things like him saying homosexuals are deviant and disgusting. Even if it was offensive, there was no punchline. You know what I mean? She's in it deep. And I think, oh, Doja Cat, her mother is a white Ashkenazi Jew. Her father is a black man.

I can't support someone who hates themselves. Well, no. And I can't make excuses for adults. She's grown. You know, there was some stuff when she was really young where it's like, oh, she was doing this, doing that. She kind of apologized for it. You're fully grown. You're fully a celebrity. You know what you're doing. You know what you're doing. And no. And I think like for me, it's just like there are many other options. I can stream other music. Yeah.

1000%. And my thing, you know, I feel like today I'm going to have to answer for all of my mixed brothers and sisters. Yeah, because what the fuck is going on? We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that. But what I would say is that I think you were right, Saeed, that there is some self-hatred going on there. Mixed people, famously, we love to talk about that. That pain of being pulled between two identities and all this stuff. And in the midst of all that chaos, we become a contradiction into ourselves. And Doja Cat's acting like a contradiction because there's nothing about her lived experience that should...

validate her supporting a white supremacist comedian. So anyway, I'm sorry. I'm going to be calling a council meeting after the show. We're all going to get to the bottom of it. You don't have to carry her water, even if you are also mixed. Talk to your friends. So what I will say about Doja Cat is because, yeah, I've enjoyed her music and I've tried not to pay a lot of attention to her antics because I...

her music's what I've liked more than Doja herself, if that makes sense. And that seemed to be what she wanted. And that's kind of what we talked about last time. But her antics, like she's doing things that are directing attention away from the music herself, if that makes sense. So then I'm like, okay, well now I'm paying attention. Now I'm learning about things like your boyfriend and all that kind of stuff. So raising questions. And I think, I don't know, for me, I'm going to accept, you know, it's not up to me whether or not I need to pay attention to white supremacy or

I need to pay attention. And it can be inconvenient. It can be perhaps embarrassing, but like it is what it is. Don't ignore it. Can't ignore it. And it's not going to wait for your schedule. You know what I mean? So yeah, it really sucks. It was wholly unnecessary, but I know it's not healthy. And I know I don't want to participate in it. Same. Same. She is off the Spotify. I know Doja Cat will be on Hot Ones this Thursday. And it will be our first test on social media.

She's very clever. She's very witty. I'm sure that interview will be very fun. Don't give in. Like, if you're saying that you don't like the way the celebrity is acting, they are very good at using public appearances to kind of try to sway us. So I'm actually genuinely interested to see how that plays out in just 24 hours to see, like, if people go, oh, I have to admit she ate that or what.

It's hard to hate her. I'm like, we don't hate her. This is about accountability. And you can do a cute interview if you want to. You're still supporting white supremacy. Listeners, before we get into this episode, I want to thank all of you, per usual, for sending us fan mail, for reaching out to us on social media. We always love to hear from you. Keep writing us. We're at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. All right, let's jump in, shall we? Let's go. Let's do it.

All right, listeners, come out, come out, wherever you are. Oh, you planned that. I did, I did. Today is National Coming Out Day, which has been observed on October 11th every year since 1988. What's amazing about 1988 is that that was the height of the AIDS epidemic. So this day began as so many people were very much dying in public and losing loved ones. And that's interesting, right? Very different context. Very interesting, very different context.

Ever since that day, we've seen vast changes in the LGBTQ rights movement. Everything from queer people can now serve in the army. They can get married. There are more protections. You know, the AIDS epidemic looks very differently. So, you know, it's been a few decades, but things have changed really rapidly for us. And we have more representation than ever in elected offices, media, television, everything.

And it makes sense because over the years, we have seen the LGBTQ population in the U.S. double in terms of people who identify. So when this day first began, we were less than 4% that would openly identify. Now we're closer to 8%.

And that is only growing with Gen Z coming out as LGBTQ at higher and higher rates every year. What's interesting about this year's National Coming Out Day is we are, I would say, at the height of coming out, but we're also back at the height of a lot of violence. Many, many states around the country are passing

anti-LGBTQ bills, trans youth are under severe attack, trans women are still getting murdered on an average of one every two weeks, and LGBTQ people still report today that 28% of all of us have experienced being unhoused or housing instability in our lifetime.

So things are not perfect, but you know, you watch Love, Simon, it feels a bit perfect. So that's what we want to talk about today. It's kind of these contradictions of, you know, we're more out than ever, but things don't feel very great. And also coming out feels very different these days for when I talk to 20 year olds compared to us in our 30s. So sisters, what are we thinking? Let's start with our own coming out.

Sam, how did you approach this when you were thinking of coming out as an LGBTQ member? Was it stressful for you? Oh, God, it was stressful. And it took years. I was raised in a really not progressive Black evangelical church upbringing. So homophobia was the bottom line, you know? And in part, that's why I left home for graduate school to kind of be free of that, to go be gay. So I didn't really start coming out in earnest until I was maybe...

24. And then the process stretched over years because it's like you tell one friend, then you tell a few. And then it's like, well, I tell coworkers and then it's like, well, will I date someone and will I date them publicly? So I don't think I was like fully all the way out.

until like 30 or something. And then I don't think I talked about being gay on a microphone in my work until years after that. So my takeaway from that and my lesson from that to anyone who's listening and going through their journey is let it take as long as it needs to take. And I think we can sometimes be fooled into this idea, even with coming out day, that it's just one day and just one time.

A lot of us are always coming out and a lot of us have to do it on our own schedules. And that's fine. And don't hate yourself in the midst of that. It's going to be what it's going to be. I mean, I think in hindsight, it might have been better for me to pull the bandaid off a lot more quickly. But you do what you can do where you are. So that was my journey. That was my journey. I have to say, seriously.

Sam, I'm realizing that the first time I ever met you was I think 2015 and met you. I mean, I saw you in public at a live event for NPR and I tweeted and you tweeted me back and I was super excited. I was like, oh my God, Sam Sanders tweeted me and I don't know if you were out then, but I saw you on stage and I was a young journalist and I was like,

I know him. I see myself in him. And at that time, marriage had just passed, I think. So it wasn't weird. I was like, okay, if he's not open about it, it's not a big deal. But that feels like we live in a very different world today. Oh, yeah. And even in those eight years since then, so much has changed. What I find really fascinating about marriage

all of the data around coming out is a way in which Gen Z has totally changed the equation. You know, when I was coming out, when we were coming out, it felt a little more written in stone, a little more categorized. You're coming out as gay, you're coming out as bi, you're coming out as a lesbian, and you kind of walked into a box and

And I think so much of the energy around coming out with Gen Z is coming out into a certain kind of fluidity. There's more fluidity with gender. There's more fluidity with sexuality. And Gen Z is much more open to saying –

who I am is going to be an evolving journey. And the words I use to describe myself might change over time. That feels new, and I think it's promising and good for all of us, regardless of our age or where we are on these spectrums, because that gives us more freedom to be who we really are. Yeah, I mean, that's interesting because, I mean, one, I think that's true, that sense of fluidity, that sense of

something has changed, but it could keep changing. And that is natural and human. I feel like that is a way of, of communicating that I've really observed from Gen Z. And I very much appreciate because that's the thing, even as an out queer person who may be, you know, like we're all in our thirties at this point, like we're still learning and evolving as well. It's not static for any of us, but yeah, I feel like, you know, as a millennial, in some ways I feel like I had a very millennial coming out of

timeline, which is to say, I think for a lot of us, the idea was strategically stay in the closet until the end of high school, until you turn 18. Until your parents weren't paying your way. That was a big part of it too for a lot of people. Right. So you could, one, leave your school community, these peers that you had grown up with. The idea was, oh, you could go to college out of state or just move.

And then to, yeah, as Sam is saying, you know, also whatever was going on at home, you would also have distance. And I think, you know, that was just the beginning of social media. Social media wasn't something that I think we had to take into this calculus. But I think it does matter that as a lot of us were turning 18, going to college, going away, you know, the idea of your parents checking your Facebook or seeing a tweet about you at a drag show or you kissing a guy, like, wasn't really something in our mind.

It was like maybe there might be a game of telephone between your mama's church friends that you might have to deal with at some point. It wasn't quite the same. And so, yeah, I remember I knew I was attracted to boys from a very young age. And it just felt...

If not unsafe, inconvenient. I think I was aware that I would be ostracized, that I would lose opportunities. I remember being privately really convicted at one point in high school, for example. It's so funny when you're young, like things that you grow up and you're like, it wasn't that important. But at the time, it feels so important. I really wanted to be National Honor Society president at my school.

But it was my junior year. Yeah, it was junior year. And my feelings were getting really real. And I remember like being like straightened up tough. And I remember like actively trying to change my behavior in ways that I thought would make me more appealing to more people. And I won that election. I was National Honor Society president. Okay. But it's like so interesting to think that that was something privately related.

very much on my mind you know and now i want to like hug little saeed oh baby you know but but it's real you know and and so i'm grateful that when i see images now of queer kids with their parents you know celebrating high school and going to parades you know taking their boo to homecoming dances or prom i love that it feels really different yeah yeah

Said, what I love what you just said is strategic coming out because I never thought of it that way. And that is such a big part of our teenage years. You know, I...

I didn't really come out till I went to college and it's because I knew I was going to leave. Like I always knew I was going to leave Tennessee. I was going to run away. And then once I was gone, I could then start speaking about it. And I, I mean, I faced bullying and all this stuff, but it was never, my life never felt at risk. I didn't really think I'd end up, you know, homeless, but I just didn't want to have the conversation. And I remember thinking, well, what's the point of coming out if I don't have a boyfriend? Like what, like being gay is having a boyfriend and I don't have a boyfriend. So I just didn't do it. So I lived in this sort of glass closet and,

And it was always waiting to come out. And that's what we used to tell young people back then, like, hey, you know, can you just hold off a few years just so that you're in the clear? And now that seems like a foreign idea, but something that, you know, I've always, I think about this all the time, more than I would like to. And it's back to my high school days where,

I remember there was a guy, I'll say his first name, Daniel. He came out as bisexual eventually our senior year and he asked me on a date and it was before I ever came out. In high school? In high school. Okay. He asked me to have dinner with him because he knew and I knew, but you know, whatever. And I,

I remember being so excited and scared by this man asking me out because it was this one like, oh my God, someone sees me and they like me and they want to be with me. But then there was the other part of like, oh my God, now I have to be gay in Tennessee. And am I ready for that? And I never went on that date. And I think so much back.

now meeting young people who went to prom with a boy, who had boyfriends when they were 14, all this stuff. I'm like, what would my life look like if I had said yes my senior year and had a boyfriend and what would life have been like? And instead I was so focused on like running away. And now we're dealing with a generation where they get to stay and they're dealing with a lot of onslaught, which is why those anti-LGBTQ bills are rolling through.

You know, the data around how coming out has changed is really interesting. There's an article in Time magazine from May of this year. It's called How Gen Z Changed Its Views on Gender.

And there are some pretty crazy facts in here. So this article says that in late 2020 and in early 2021, Gen Z was the only U.S. generation in which a majority believed that there are more than two genders.

They're the only generation in which most of them feel this way. And the article goes on to say, quote, Gen Z speaks a whole language of gender often barely understood by their Gen X and even millennial parents or by most people just a few short years ago.

It's really rapid the way in which they're changing the conversation on gender and fluidity. And seeing that become a part of the coming out conversation, it's new and it wasn't happening for me 10 years ago, but I'm glad it's happening now. Yeah, and I want to acknowledge, you know, just as for the three of us and our journeys, there were moments.

mentors, elders, community members, and peers who created the conditions for however we look back and go, well, I maybe would have done things a little differently. We did something significant, but we didn't do it alone. I remember I came out to my high school speech coach before I came out to my mother because it was just easier to talk to her about that kind of thing. And just now,

Sam, as you were sharing that, for example, Gen Z's ideas about gender in contrast to other generations, I'm like, wow, shout out to the parents. Shout out to the teachers. Shout out to the booksellers, the librarians, the health teachers, the community members who have created the conditions. Like Gen Z, they're not Aphrodite being born fully formed from Zeus's head. You know, it's like, no, something has changed in terms of how we as adults are

talk about, behave, and live that has created this breakthrough for young people, which I think is really what the bills and stuff was about. It's like, so it's not just that this anti-queer youth legislation, just to focus on that, is just about the young people. I think it's also like a backlash against the adults that have created this sea change. Yeah, and these adults are our peers. I grew up in a place where people started having kids

right after graduation. Same. Meaning these kids are now in high school. So it is like, I haven't thought about that until you said that, Saeed, that the parents that are being more accepting to the trans kids in my hometown that are there were my classmates. And maybe I, through being myself, did help because progress isn't, you know, like a light switch. It doesn't turn on and off or whatever. It takes time. I am interested, just to throw a wrench in things, you know, we've talked so positively about how the trajectory of coming out has changed

Seemed to go in a positive direction the last several years, but for me it's been juxtaposed by a strange and creeping Sexual puritanism in some corners of the internet You know the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco happened a few weeks ago And there was a segment of younger queer people who basically said it's too much sex. It's too nasty I don't want to see that and keep it away from me and

And I kind of feel like that is antithetical to the liberation that we're talking about here. And I even think about some of the shows that have become popular in the last few years showing queer life and young queer life.

They're a lot less sexual than I think folks our age have been used to seeing. And I'm not sure how I feel about what seems like a blossoming of coming out, but also it's joined by a dampening of the actual expression of queer sexuality in certain spaces. Yeah.

You know, the idea of like, there's too much sex at Folsom, which I'm like, well, it's a, it's a literally a celebration of sexuality and kink. That's what, that's what it's for or pride or whatever, you know, these conversations they're confusing, you know, I'm not going to, I'm like, uh, not, it's confusing to me. Yeah. Not logically confusing, I guess. I think it's, it's technology. So, so, so,

So I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel that what we're seeing is, one, more people of different walks of life are feeling comfortable coming out at different points in their journey. One of those points may be age. But also, more people have access to public conversations because of technology. Yes.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 1993, if 14-year-olds were able to come out and have access to Twitter and found out about Fulsome,

They'd be like, what's that? Yeah. Yeah. I think they might be like, that's weird. Like, what do you, you know, I just want to like hold hands with my boyfriend in the hallway. Like I, to me, I think what we're seeing is like, just kind of like an understandable collision. Like that happens in kind of like the marketplace of ideas when more people feel comfortable speaking up in the marketplace. Yeah. What I will say is,

And I don't think this is actually on young people, something that I think we are collectively still struggling to catch up with. It's like we're making the conditions better for people to feel comfortable coming out and speaking in their truth as they perceive it. I don't think we're doing as good of a job in terms of explaining queer history to people.

Because when you understand the history of Folsom, when you understand the history of Pride and Pride parades and Stonewall, then I think that would help you contextualize how you feel, where you're able to go, oh, okay, interesting. Not for

Not for me, but I see why it's important to let those people celebrate their movement and their way. But if you don't have that, you're just like, gross. You know what I mean? Yeah. You don't have the context. Well, thank you both for having this brief. I could have talked about this with you guys for a long time. There's so much. There's so much to go into. And something that I want to share with listeners before we go to break is the writer Darnell Moore.

who we are friends with. - Love Darnell. - Darnell's amazing. He is the first person that said to me when I was like 21 or 22, he said, "I don't like to think of it as coming out. I like to think of it as a coming in or a letting in." And that we are allowing people to see our full selves and participate in the full version of ourselves.

And that kind of helped me at the time be like, wow, this isn't about always proclaiming, always having to take up space. But it's really about getting more intimate with everyone around me and being willing to share and feel safer with folks. So if there's someone in your life that you're wanting to have come out, maybe think of it as a coming in and let them do it on their own time. And that's essential and something I've really had to learn. It is up to you. If you are forced to...

to come out, if you are outed, I think that is an existential theft. It's a soul-level theft that I'm not sure can ever be recovered.

And so I think it is so important that people are made to feel, as Zach is saying, that like, okay, I'm ready to do this for myself. Yeah. As a note to all the allies who think they're being helpful, do not out people. Even your best friend, your sister, your cousin, don't out people.

It's their journey. It's their language. It's on their own time. I don't care how much you think you're helping. Don't do it. Yeah. On that note. Well, with that, let's take a quick break. Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more. Bye, Chuck. Bye.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

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Okay, to get this next conversation started, this is from The Politics of Reality, Essays in Feminist Theory by Marilyn Frye. This is just a short excerpt.

All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, who they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence, and love they desire, those are overwhelmingly other men. In their relations with women,

What passes for respect is kindness, generosity, or paternalism. What passes for honor is removal to a pedestal. From women, they want devotion, sex, and service. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic. It is male-loving. So let's talk about Drake. Ha ha ha!

Hey! Shots fired! Shots fired! There's the transition. So Drake's new album, For All the Dogs, which, as Sam pointed out, was like, sometimes you need to listen to people when they're talking. Yeah.

Well, this is what Pitchfork has to say about the new album. Drake may have started out as a puppy dog lover with a chip on his shoulder, but his attitude seems to deepen into a jaded fuckboy sneer more and more with every album. Dogs revels in that hedonistic flair, boiling the women in his stories down to bags he buys for them and their nieces. Oof. Oof.

And their nieces. That is a pretty cutting detail, Pitchfork. And the drugs they inhale in the bathroom. That's from Pitchfork. Before we get into some examples of Drake's

recent antagonism of Black women in particular? I would say, what is your relationship to Drake and his music? Let's start there. I would say I was a longtime Drake lover. I had a best friend in college, right out of college. We were roommates. He loved Drake. And then he would listen to Drake

all the time and I loved listening to Drake with him. Drake was like the, if I went to a straight club and Drake played, it made me feel good. But then over the years, and a lot of that had to do with his relation with Rihanna, Beyonce, all these other women I love. His collaborations with Rihanna are still some of his best songs. Yeah, and he did Beyonce's Lemonade. He was always seemingly supporting Black women and then I would say around 2014, 15, things shifted pretty radically and it began to fall apart for me. But on the surface, I'm supposed to love my fellow mixed brother from Toronto, but

Sadly, things are shifting for me. Sam, what about you? Yeah, I mean, I think the examples of misogyny are very clear and present.

Two biggest examples being the things he said about Megan Thee Stallion suggesting that she lied about being shot by Tory Lanez. And whatever the hell he did with Serena Williams, dissing her and her husband, he kind of has done the same to Rihanna as well. That misogyny speaks for itself, and we'll talk more about it. But I'm also intrigued about how Drake has seemed to devolve as an artist,

I remember those early mixtapes. He was really good and was trying to get better. The boy could rap. And the biggest and best names in the business co-signed him because he was such a good rapper. Lil Wayne signed him because he was that good, right? And what bothered me before the misogyny got out of hand was just how lazy the music got.

He started to take on these weird dumb personas like pretending to be Jamaican for a few years and he started to make these songs where it seemed like everybody else was doing the work for him. I actually wrote about Drake in 2018 for NPR Music and you'll remember when his song In My Feelings became a number one hit. Is that the one with Kiki? Kiki, do you love me? That one with the dance. The like Shiggy Challenge, the Shiggy Dance song.

That was the biggest example of Drake becoming the smallest part of his success. That song, the most winning parts were everything else.

It had a Trigger Man New Orleans bounce beat, which he didn't make. It's from New Orleans. It samples a Magnolia Shorty, this New Orleans rapper. It samples Lil Wayne. It has an appearance by the City Girls. And the viral dance was made by a comedian. Every part of that song that we loved was everything except Drake. And I think what we've seen with his career is that he pulls and bites and samples from other folks doing more interesting things that

to make his hits. But increasingly, the original work of it all, he's doing less and less of it. I think he's become a lazy artist on top of becoming a rampant misogynist. And it's kind of sad to see because at the top of his career, it was so promising because he actually is so talented. So talented. Yeah, it's been interesting. Over the weekend, there's a lot of conversation about some people feeling that Drake needs to make quote-unquote grown-up music. And...

One, I don't... I'm like, what does grown-up music even mean in hip-hop? Give me an example. But the more relevant issue is what you're going to, Sam. It feels like what we're witnessing is a regression. Yes. Both in terms of the music itself, but also the ideas. It feels like we're watching him time travel back into the worst parts of boyhood. You know, like the 12-year-old He-Man Women Haters Club, kind of. Yes. Yes. Which is so ironic because...

In his early days, black women rode for Drake. Like Issa Rae was one of his biggest fans and even talked about him on Insecure, right? Like he had a special relationship with women because he felt and the way he talked about romance accessible and like relatable.

And his discussion of romance turns to hatred. It just turned to hatred over the years. And let's talk about that misogyny because I think if, you know, like I realized I was like, damn, the last time I was really, really into a Drake song was probably Nice For What. And that's...

2017, 2018. It's been a minute. So I think for those of us, for listeners who may be like casual listeners who haven't been paying a lot of attention, they might be like, we need some examples. Like what's actually going on? So as we've mentioned, Serena Williams, in a recent song, there's also a, we would call it a sneak dis-

of Rihanna, which is to say you could make the case that... But it's like we're reading context. We're not fools. Megan Thee Stallion, another example of a sneak diss, and specifically, this is important, he accused Megan Thee Stallion of lying

about being shot by Tory Lanez. Come on. A court has found this man guilty. He is in the jail now. Yeah. And so one, I just want to point out, one, we know that she was shot by Tory Lanez. Two, Drake has not at least publicly apologized to her. And I think that's really significant. And three, could you imagine if Drake was shot by another rapper?

We'd never hear the end of it. That would be a five-album saga from this man. So the nerve, you know what I mean? But also just in the last few days with this new album, some of the songs coming out, here's one verse from the new album where he takes shots not just at Esperanza Spalding, to say that she's an accomplished jazz artist is an understatement, but also Michelle Obama. Quote, four Grammys to my name, a hundred nominations. Esperanza Spalding was getting all the praise.

I'm trying to keep it humble. What did I tell you about people saying they're humble? They're not humble. What did I tell you literally last week? I'm trying to keep it humble. I'm trying to keep it gracious. Who gives a fuck Michelle Obama put you on her playlist? Then we never hear from you again like you was taken. So we should clarify a few things here. He's referencing the year in which Esperanza Spalding won Best New Artist at the Grammys over him. 2011, over a decade ago. Get over it.

12 years ago. And then he's mad that after she won, Michelle Obama put her on a playlist. And then he says that she's nowhere to be found now. It's like, just because you're not following jazz doesn't mean she's not successful. She is the biggest, most bankable jazz artist on the planet right now.

Like, get over yourself, Drake? Just because the producers Drake cleans to for life to find samples better than his actual lyrics, just because they aren't interested in Esperanza's folding doesn't mean the rest of us don't love her music. But I think what we're getting at through all of this is really, I think, surmised in this one lyric that The Atlantic wrote about too a few years ago, which is, he wrote,

Or says, I blow a half a million on you hoes, I'm a feminist. And Drake is one of those rappers that likes to bring up feminism a lot in his work. He brings up sexuality a lot and women empowerment. But his ideas around feminism are directly tied to him as the patriarch and him as the financier of their life. And as long as they stay in line, you take the Birkin, you take the money, you come on his jet. As long as you are subservient to him, then you are fine. But if you do not find yourself subservient to him, a la Rihanna...

or all these other women, he will lash out and try to destroy you. And that is misogyny. It is a retrograde, dare I say, like pimp mentality. He sees these women as there for his sexual gratification. And if they give him that, he gives them nice things.

You've even seen on this last tour, he, in this really creepy way, has been collecting bras women throw on stage at the concerts, asking them for more. And then he displayed them. He had his staff lay them out and took a picture in front of hundreds of bras.

It looked like, I was like, why is Drake in an Amazon fulfillment center? Like, what's going? It's such a weird photo. It's like hundreds of bras neatly lined up. It's creepy. He is in equal parts disrespectful to women, but also incredibly immature. Like, are you 12?

Speaking of which, it's striking to me that the only high-profile example that has surfaced for me, and obviously I'm not deep in Drake world, so I'm sure there are examples that just aren't reaching me, but in terms of a high-profile woman celeb that he has a positive relationship with, let's

Let's go back to when Millie Bobby Brown, the actor from Stranger Things, was 14 years old and mentioned offhandedly during an interview, oh yeah, I met Drake backstage at one of his concerts and we text all the time. He's kind of like a mentor. He gives me dating advice. Hmm.

That's literally the only example I can think of. And it's like, why are you giving a 14-year-old at the time dating advice? That doesn't feel great. But also it speaks to Zach's point about it seems like there has to be this hierarchy, which is what Marilyn Frye is talking about, right? The only way a lot of heterosexual men who are deep in misogyny can interact warmly with women, there has to be this hierarchy maintained. Yeah.

And also, just to take it back to the, oh my God, Drake's so immature of it all. So Joe Budden, former successful rapper, now successful podcaster. He was the guy who mentioned the grown-up music comment. Yeah, he made the comment like, why is Drake still making music for quote-unquote kids? I don't care to litigate that comment.

Part of the debate but I will point out part of Drake's response which just speaks to how immature this band really is So the video of Joe Budden making this critique of Drake is posted to Instagram Drake hops in the comments has this like three paragraph long diatribe and he ends it by saying of Joe Budden if you need to put it in simpler terms, I own a 767

He owns a modest house in the 973 and flies first class on special occasions. What? First of all, I was like, 973? I'm like, why is Newark catching strays? Leave us alone. I have a 973 area code. Leave us alone. But this is a great example. This is actually great. And also, I just want to say, Joe Budden is trash too. I hope both teams lose. Yeah. But it is significant because then this is what I was actually talking about with Doja Cat. These people

are savvy. And so in the same way that Doja Cat's interview on Hot Ones is coming out this week at the specific point that she needs to redirect focus, and I think that's what she's going to use this interview to do, this felt like another example. Because, like,

His lines, like, you only fly first class on special occasions. Honestly, that's better than any Drake lyric I've heard in a minute. Yes, if he was making songs with this. So it's like, yeah, it's like, okay, you pick someone that everyone hates. Joe Budden is a jerk. And you were like, oh, this is a perfect example for me to kind of give people something else to talk about than all of this misogyny. I'm not new to the game. I see what you're doing, Drake. I see what you're doing. So I said, I'm not new to this. I'm true to this. Yeah.

I'm sick of it. This is just a question I want all of us, listeners included. Why is misogyny, why is misogynoir so profitable? There's a reason. If we know anything about Drake, we know he cares about money. If this was affecting his bottom line, he would have stopped doing it a long time ago. But in fact, he's increased it. And so I think it's a disturbing question if you try to answer it. Why does it make him more money to be so hateful towards women, but especially Black women? That's it.

While sampling black women in his music all the time. Hello. Yes. Like Lauryn Hill, City Girls, Scissors on the newest album. He loves to have black women on the mic with him or doing the work for him. Oh, another example, using that embarrassing photo of Halle Berry for Slime You Out, even after she was like, please don't do it. And he just did it anyway. It's just wow. Wow. Well, we're going to take another break. You know, it's hard for us, our pop girlies.

you know, we're holding on to a wing, a prayer, and a choice of on, you know? No, it is not hard. It is not hard if you stay true to the North Star that is Beyonce. So, you know, just stay there and you're fine. You know what, though? She was effing around with Tiffany's blood diamonds, so none of them are safe. None of them are perfect. Let's move on. Let's take a break and pray. Let's take a break and pray.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors everywhere.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

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Listeners, we're back. Before we end the show, as we always do, we're going to each share something that's helping us keep our vibes right. This week, I'll go last. Which of my sisters wants to go first? I'll go first. All right, do it, Zach. What you got? So what I got, I have a gift for listeners. I think it's a gift. So a dear friend of mine, his name's Grant Legan. He's a really fantastic photographer. Some of you may have already followed him on Instagram. He's been around for a minute and quite popular. He launched an underwear line.

And I typically don't love, you know, small business goals. Yeah. Like I know I was like, when he told me about it, I was like, brilliant. Cause he works a lot. His photos are very, you know, intimate and there's a lot of skin in them. They're very sensual. So him launching underwear made sense. And, um, he's been working on them forever. And then I finally got a pair and I was like, I will not talk about them unless I love them. And I put them on and let me tell you, have you seen those, um, Louisville,

leggings on TikTok that all the girls wear for their butts. Oh, yeah. They were really big like a year ago. Really big? Yeah. These, I'm going to say, are like the underwear version. They do wonders for your butt. And so if you're looking for new underwear... Zach walking around his apartment just bam, bam, boom, boom. I was like, look at this. Boom, boom. Gotta keep a man some way. So anyway...

They look nice. They're really nice. They just launched and they're pretty inclusive. You know, his campaign has all different gender identities and all these amazing people in it. But if you're interested, check it out. Wear Creo. So wear and then Creo is C-R-E-O dot com.

And if you're a VibeCheck listener, you get 15% off for free shipping if you use the promo code VibeCheck. And that wasn't a paid ad. That's just because I love it so much. So that's my VibeRack. Buy underwear. Underwear is wonderful. Invest in it. It makes you feel good. Underwear is wonderful. Underwear is wonderful. Saeed, what's your rec?

My recommendation this week is a poetry collection that just came out. The title is Pig by Sam Sachs. I'm holding up the cover. Well, Sam and Zach can see it, but it's a very cute cover. Sam is a lovely person, queer writer out of California. I've gotten to, particularly when I was living in San Francisco, I think that's how I got to know Sam and their work and just a huge fan. And so I'm going to read

One of my favorite poems from the new book, as you might imagine, a book called Pig. There are pigs throughout the book, and I have learned so much. And it's such an interesting muse for a poetry collection. This poem is titled Portrait of a Drag Queen with a Pig Nose, Oakland, California, 2019. Behind the gas station, the queen begins facing away from the crowd.

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You are the language we've been looking for when we say we need a new language. Darkness dragged, bathed in light. The song ends. She sniffs, collects her tips. Love it. That is from the book Pig by Sam Sachs. So good. Shout out to the drag queens. I was going to try to make a pig noise, but... How do they do it?

I wish people could see Sam's face. Yeah, the face really... Something I learned from Sam's book is that armies used to travel with their own stable of pigs so that they could cook and eat the pigs wherever they were. But pigs are such industrious and resilient animals, and so the pigs would often...

outlive and outbreed the war. And so the war would kind of move on, but these pigs, often brought by colonizing armies, would stay behind and kind of change the natural environment. Wow. It's a fascinating book. I like the idea of a poet who,

drilling into a specific idea. He's looking at the etymology. He's looking at the history. He draws from Babe, the movie and the story at one point. He's drawing from mythology. You know, it's really interesting. So you're like, oh, pig, that's cute. And of course, you know, from gay sex culture, there's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's really fun.

Layers of bacon. Layers of bacon. Triple cooked. Twice cooked pork. Okay. I love it. Sam, what's your recommendation? I want to recommend a novel that was recently sent to me from Riverhead Books. Family Meal. It's the latest from Brian Washington, who is the author of Memorial and Lot. And I like this book a lot. I'm holding it up right now. I usually read a lot more nonfiction than fiction.

But when I dig into fiction, I want it to feel succulent. I want it to feel full. And this book feels that way. It's really heavy. It's about death. It's about trauma. It's about coping. But it's written quite beautifully. And you can fall into this thing before you know it. And I'm thoroughly enjoying it. What's the plot? Can you give us a taste?

queer man who is in a loving wonderful relationship with a man named Kai Kai dies tragically and suddenly and the hero of the book then has to rebuild his life he moves away from where he was to go be in Houston with some friends of Kai and he's trying to get things back together but he cannot stop seeing Kai's ghost

And the ghost speaks to him. And it is sad and beautiful. Sad and beautiful. Brian Washington loves a family trauma that requires you to go somewhere else. Also, Brian Washington loves Houston. His first book, the short story collection, Lot.

One of my favorite books of the last few years. And it's all around different neighborhoods in Houston. And that's Memorial Begins in Houston as well. It's like a H-Town girl. And he references Houston so beautifully and specifically in this book. I recommend it. All right. All right. Listeners, let us know what's keeping your vibe right this week. Give us your recommendations. Email us at any time at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Also, reminder, we're having our very first Vibe Check Book Club episode very soon. We are reading Poverty by America by Matthew Desmond. Get the book. Read it.

Read the book. Join us. He'll be answering all of our questions very soon. And a note, don't get it on Amazon. Go to an independent bookstore or a library. How about that? Yeah, or bookshop.org is a great alternative to Amazon. Yeah, it's been really cool. People are already getting the book. They're getting it, yeah. One of our listeners and friends, Cortez, was texting me this morning. He was like, I was crying all of a sudden.

boy read it. Because it shook. I mean, it's such a smart book, but his examples really kind of hit home. Yeah. And those examples work because he spends time with these people in poverty. And they're not just sources for his book. He calls them friend, right? He embeds in their lives with them. And the detail that he can give of their lives in this book is really incredible. Get the book.

Thank you all for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend. And if you want to leave us rating and a review, that helps us out as well.

It does. And a huge thank you to our producer, Shanta Holder, engineer Sam Kiefer and Brandon Burns, and Marcus Hom for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Norvichi at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. We love you all. You get a Snickers. You get a Snickers. You get a Snickers. Ha!

And again, we want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram at The Ferocity, at Sam Sanders, and at Stackstaff. I love a cute blue sky moment. I've been meeting more blue sky users out in the open. And I love that for you. And I love that for you. I still can't go over there. Okay. But of course, we love it when you use the hashtag vibecheckpod. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Stitcher.

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