Say It With Your Chest
54:50 Share

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare. ♪

Ladies, ladies, ladies. Hello. We are gathered here today. Is this a wedding? To get through this thing called life. No, it's a Prince lyric. To get through this thing called life. To get through this thing called life. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And you are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

This week, besides talking about Prince, we are going to talk about the war in Israel and Palestine. We're taping this on Tuesday, November 7th. We want to check in, see what's going on, and talk about what's next. But before that, I've got to ask my sisters how they're feeling. Zach, what's your vibe this week?

My vibe this week is I'm feeling pretty full spiritually in a good way, in a very good way. And I'm also feeling really excited to be back with you all because this weekend I was upstate New York in Chappaqua, New York for a board retreat. I sit on the board of the American LGBTQ plus board, which is the museum that's opening in New York City in 2026.

Yeah. For queer people. It's going to be amazing. So we had our annual meeting. And when I got there, I was really like not looking forward to it just because I was like my weekends, I try to unplug and this required me to fly to New York again, go upstate and then spend, I think we're together 12 to 14 hours a day for like three weeks. That's a lot. A lot. And you're in a conference room. You're talking, talking, talking. But,

When I got there, I was reminded about how many amazing people are in our community across all different groups. And our board has been really great about being really intentional about inclusion as much as we can. So, you know, we have folks from the indigenous communities that are like leaders in their own tribes that are on our board. We have, you know, people of different disabilities that is. We have trans people. We have everything. And so it's the first time in my life I've sat at a table with, I would say, 30 people who all are different than me. Wow.

And we're all talking about one thing. And it was just so beautiful because something that came up this weekend was this tension and difference between intent and impact, which is what I'm thinking a lot about today. That feels very relevant. Is that like intent doesn't always equal impact. And so we spent the whole weekend diving deep

into that kind of framework because we have this intention of creating a queer museum, but like for who? Whose stories? How? 'Cause queer people make up every population in the world. And it was just such a beautiful place 'cause in moments of tension, we were able to acknowledge that someone had good intention

but the impact didn't always land in the way that they probably want it. And we were able to talk about it. So it was really modeling all weekend that in complicated conversations across difference, that there's always a way to meet in the middle and figure things out. And, and I just think it helped me put language to my private conversations, which we're kind of going to unfold today about like, you know, a lot of us are feeling really anxious about you want to voice a concern, voice a feeling about what's happening. Um,

And your intention is really good, but that other person responds in a way that makes you question your intention and questions the whole situation itself. So I'm finding grace today. I love that. Impact. It's also making me think of, you know, a turn of phrase we've all heard since we were kids. Message intended isn't always message received. Yeah. You must always be aware of that. You know, there's a lot of talking across difference happening right now or not happening right now based on where you are.

But we got to remember that just because you meant something doesn't mean that person heard that or felt that. Yeah. And if I could just add, what was amazing to see is in moments where things got, you know, tense in these meetings and people were able to voice what they were feeling. And there was the grace for all of us to hear them and,

figure out a way to move forward together. So it just, you know, I'm anxious about conflict. That's why I'm such a peacekeeper. So to see so much tension happen over and over again, but us two at the end be like, wow, we're building a museum through all this is pretty amazing. And I feel like we vibe check, you know, every week we have always the best intentions when we start these shows, but then the impact as we see throughout the week, as you all write to us, it's so varied. And, you know, I don't know. I think we have a good relationship with everyone to understand the nuances here. Yeah. And Sarah Schulman has a book whose title is,

feels very relevant. The title is Conflict Is Not Abuse. Say it again. Conflict Is Not Abuse by Sarah Schulman. And she uses several examples. And in fact, I believe there is a chapter on Israel and Palestine. Just because that you are in tension, just because there is a disagreement, just because everyone is passionate and not on the same page, that does not mean people are being abused.

And that is a really, it's a vital distinction. It's a vital distinction. Yeah. And you're right, Zach. It is incredibly uncomfortable. Many of us are understandably conflict avoidant for many reasons, collective and personal. But conflict can also be productive. So sometimes we have to learn to hold it, to deal with it. Saeed, what's your vibe this week? How are you feeling? Woo!

Well, okay, so it is election day in Ohio, as it is in many places across the country. And so I feel good because when this episode airs this Wednesday, hopefully we will know about two really important issues here in the state of Ohio regarding reproductive justice and weed legalization. I'm offering a strong yes to both of those issues. My hope is...

My prayer is not just that weed legalization and reproductive justice, and in that case, that's a constitutional issue here in the state, is not just that I want them. I want both of these issues to be so successful. I want voter turnout and support for reproductive justice and weed legalization in the state of Ohio to be so overwhelming this week.

that the powers that be across the country, certainly in organizations like the DNC, listen,

to what grassroots activists have been saying over and over again, that abortion in particular is a winning issue. It's also a vital issue, but that we should not be shy. We should be clear-throated, full volume, as my friend Ben Inaduo always used to say in college, say it with your chest, nigga. So I'm excited. And also because obviously these are two issues I really believe in. And certainly in the last month, and I know we're going to talk about it, I felt...

often helpless, but I can do this. So after we finish recording, I love that I get to just walk down the street to my community, the Thompson Community Center, and go see those old ladies that are always there and always sassy.

Do they give you stickers? They give you stickers. I always ask for extra stickers. I have like a hundred I voted stickers in my house. Where do you put them? Are they in a cabinet? You should make a poster. You should do something with those. Anywho.

And I guess the one other thing I want to say, I get much more excited about local and state elections lately than I do about presidential elections. That's for the real change happens. That's the real tea. So yeah, I'm excited. And if you're listening, I hope you got to vote this week on issues that matter to you. I think it feels good. It feels good to be able to act upon your beliefs, to have the opportunity and the right to vote and to be franchised. So that's my vibe. Sam, how are you?

I am processing a show I just whizzed through in the last week. I had been putting it off for a while, but I finally watched Yellow Jackets on Showtime. Oh. And a lot of what I wanted to like. Ten years later, Sam discovers a wonderful little television program called The Wire. Wonderful's not the word. I gotta say, this show...

was gratuitously disturbing for no good reason. It's pretty disturbing. There were many parts of the show that I liked. The acting was great. The cast was great. It's pretty disturbing. But the depictions of violence and cannibalism throughout the entire series were just so off-putting. And it's really shooken my vibe up. I'm still thinking about all I had to watch. Did you watch the second season as well? I sure did. Oh, yeah. I watched both seasons within a week. I loved the first season.

which I felt like was much stronger. And then I made it two episodes into the second season, and I said, oh. It's so violent. And it's got me thinking about this weird moment we are in when it comes to TV. You know, the last strike is supposed to be over soon, the actor's strike, but we're going to enter...

into this moment of the industry coming back post-strikes, but also contracting. Last year, there were about 600 scripted shows being made. There's going to be a lot less in the coming years because there's too much streaming, too much content, etc. And after watching Yellow Jackets, I found myself saying, yeah, too much. Too much.

damn too much violence he said not only did i not enjoy it yeah well it's like it's like this era of peak prestige tv let every streamer and their mother trying to make the prestigy drama high energy shows like yellow jackets with cast like christina ricci to get a claim it's a great cast it's a great it's a really good cast

I need fewer shows like this for the next few years. It's too much. What do you want? What do you want to say? I want a little less darkness. I think we've been like force fed these purposefully dystopian, disturbing, dark shows with great cinematography and a killer cast. And I'm tired. I'm tired of it. It's too much. I guess my thing is with Yellow Jackets is it's horror.

It is definitely a horror. It's a horror. But it's such a gratuitous horror. It's also like a mystery. Well, that's the thing. I'm like, well, when you see horror, it's a little bit like, you know, like I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I tried to watch Scream again and I was like, oh, I can't do it. To me, it doesn't feel like Drew Barrymore being murdered was gratuitous. I'm like, well, it's a murder horror, you know? I just feel like I have endured now at this point several years. Not endured. Endured. I've endured several years of...

of the prestigification of all streaming content, everything is elevated. Everything is highbrow. Everything is dark and moody and mysterious. And it's like, I would love...

a situational workplace comedy. I would love. You're like, bring back the office. Superstore. Yes. I want more sit. I want more. That's yes. So what I'm saying is basically after watching all of yellow jackets in one week, well, that'll do it to anyone. My vibe is bring back low stakes TV. That's my vibe. That said, I,

I did enjoy Yellow Jackets. I watched the whole thing in a week, but mama's tired. Mama's tired. Okay. Girl, you should turn on some Disney Plus. They got some wholesome. Like I got Disney Plus. I ain't got no kids. You don't got Disney Plus? I ain't got no kids. You don't got Disney Plus? I ain't got no kids.

There you go. And look at you being all sad. That's why. Sad and forlorn. You could be watching Loki, which is like fun and wild. I happily watched Hocus Pocus 2 again last night. Which, speaking of, someone told me over the weekend that when we begin the show, they always think we are Hocus Pocus, the three women. They think we're referencing the sisters. I love it. I love it. Sisters.

I don't disagree. Oh, yeah. Not wrong. All right, listeners, before we get into this episode, we want to thank all of you who have sent us fan mail or reached out to us on social media. We absolutely love reading your messages. Keep them coming at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And with that, shall we jump into today's episode? Let's do it. Let's do it.

We're going to talk for most of the rest of the show about what's going on in Israel and Palestine. As I said earlier, we're taping this episode on November 7th, which marks a month since Hamas led a deadly attack that killed more than 1,000 Israelis and led to the capture of more than 200 hostages from that country. This attack also marked the start of a new chapter in the Israel-Palestine conflict. And this new chapter has already claimed more than 10,000 Palestinian lives.

And now, a month into this conflict, whether or not most Americans realize it, there is a growing and global consensus for a ceasefire in Gaza. We're all seeing the images. Protests and marches calling for a ceasefire are happening all across the globe. D.C., S.F., L.A., Tulsa, Brussels, England, Tokyo, Jakarta, Toronto, Chile, South Africa, Australia, Brazil, Turkey, the list goes on.

multiple countries, including most recently South Africa and Chad and several others. They've removed their diplomats from Israel in protest of the nation's continued bombardment of Gaza. And recently, the head of the UN called Gaza a graveyard for children and more than a humanitarian crisis, as he continued to call for a ceasefire.

It's happening everywhere. We're seeing it domestically as well, even within the Biden White House. Some 50 DNC staffers recently signed an open letter urging Joe Biden to do more to push for a ceasefire. And USAID officials have also called for a ceasefire in an internal letter.

The UN Security Council as well has put forth measures to at least temporarily stop the fighting, but the UK and the US keep blocking these measures. I want to talk about all of this, but I got to start by asking you both, Zach and Saeed, why does it feel like if I only follow American news media that I'm not hearing about or seeing enough about this global consensus across the world?

You know, a lot of mainstream news outlets here in the U.S. make it seem if it's still kind of a 50-50 split. What do y'all feel about this as you watch news coverage of all of this from where you are? Thank you for, you know, just shouting out the different countries and cities in the United States and around the world where we saw hundreds of thousands of people dying.

for ceasefire this weekend. Jack Merkinson has a great sub stack. It's called the Discourse Blog, or he writes for the Discourse Blog. And he noted in a recent post that I might have referred to a few times that the pictures of the Palestine marches from this weekend alone run 39 pages in Getty Images. That's a lot of people. It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess I would say as someone who was in high school in the lead up to the war in Iraq after 9-11, the war on terror, you know, I remember those protests. I remember. Yeah. And it felt similar. It felt like...

I knew, and, you know, I was raised Buddhist. I was around pacifists 24-7, 365. So I certainly was around many, many people who were going to protests, who were talking about it, who were really, you know, raising their voices. And then you would, like, turn on, you know, at the time, you know, cable news and, like, nothing. Nothing. They were made to look like very small protests by some little weirdos. And that's just not the case. And that's certainly not the case now.

Yeah. So, yeah, I guess depending on where you get your news from, which is frankly, as we've talked about, increasingly difficult, increasingly difficult. Yeah, I guess maybe that can impact your perception. But I have felt like, whoa, look at all of these people coming together. That's what I felt like.

To piggyback off that, I feel similar. I feel like what we're seeing is kind of the machinations of how media is created because when I look at social media, my social media is filled with talking about ceasefire, sending uplifting content from Gaza, from journalists that are inside of Gaza, and also journalists in the area, and so on and so forth. But then when I watch CNN, read The Times, they're all talking about ceasefire.

they're so obsessed with quoting powerful people. And currently in the US, most leadership from Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden, to even Bernie Sanders are not coming out full-throated to support a ceasefire. So the media is not following that trail. - Well, this is what's been so interesting to me. There are hundreds of thousands of people marching across the world for a ceasefire. Yet here in LA, it seems so much of what I consume

this discourse is, well, this agent got fired for saying that, or Amy Schumer got into it with Dr. King's daughter. There's a lot of, it feels like in America, myopic coverage of what famous people are saying or aren't saying and who they're arguing with. And that, I think, is kind of clouding out the fact that

from the grassroots across the world, so many people want this war to end. Wow. That's, you know, when you said that, I'm not even going to talk about Amy Schumer. Yeah. Because why waste my time?

But when you said that, it is interesting that in terms of mainstream media coverage, one, if you look at the photos, it's clearly like hundreds of thousands of people come out for ceasefire. And then you watch CNN and they're like thousands of people, which thousands are still a lot of people, but their significance. But also I feel like

A lot of prestige media are focusing on examples of people experiencing career pushback, two examples. The editor-in-chief of Art Forum magazine was fired after that magazine published an open letter calling for ceasefire. And I felt like that got a lot of attention

from the institutions we're talking about. And then also last Friday, Jasmine Hughes, a wonderful journalist, cultural writer, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful journalist and writer, was forced to resign from the New York Times after signing a letter in support of ceasefire. Frankly, congratulations, Jasmine Hughes. You no longer have to work at an institution that will not support your stance on human rights. That sounds like freedom to me.

But it also feels significant that it's like in addition to closing the aperture of like people calling for ceasefire to make it look like smaller and few. It's also interesting that institutions are kind of making examples and kind of being like, look at this outlier. Look at that one outlier. So I think it's designed, frankly, to make people feel lonely or weird that they believe in ceasefire. But we're not lonely and we're not alone.

Yeah, yeah. I am interested in talking specifically about how this is affecting the Biden White House. The left is truly divided over this, truly divided. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, any democratic White House would not at all waver ever in its support of whatever Israel has done, will do, wants to do. And now we're seeing...

officials who work for the National Democratic Party, who work for USAID, who work for Joe Biden, going on the record in public to say, we don't support Joe Biden's stance on Israel. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. And we've seen the Biden White House recently announce the establishment of a first ever national strategy to counter Islamophobia.

For so many people in our nation, the past few days and weeks have brought about all too familiar fears. Fears that they will be targeted, profiled or attacked simply because of who they are, how they worship or how they look. And so today, I am proud to announce the Biden-Harris administration will develop our nation's first national strategy to counter Islamophobia.

This strategy will be a comprehensive and detailed plan to protect Muslims and those perceived to be Muslim from hate, bigotry, and violence, and to address the concern that some government policies may discriminate against Muslims. For example, the so-called Muslim ban, which President Biden revoked on our first day in office. So here's the bottom line. In America, no one should be made to fight hate alone.

And in this moment, then, let us all clearly say, a harm against any one of us is a harm against all of us.

That seems like something new, and some might say it's a sign the protests are working. What should we make of that? What do y'all make of that, seeing the Biden White House potentially squirm over this? I will just say bringing out Vice President Kamala Harris to suddenly, look, Islamophobia is real, as is anti-Semitism. But I will say in this context, in the timing, what it was giving me was,

was that photo of all those Democratic politicians, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. And weren't they wearing kente cloth? Weren't they literally wearing kente cloth? Because it's one of those things where it's like they would rather and obviously prefer to like put on kente cloth and like kneel, you know, in the Capitol or whatever, then actually defund the police. And so it feels a little, you know, not that countering Islamophobia isn't something that I think is important, but it's a little like, let's be real. We know why you're doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I do not want to limit what's happening, this crisis where we've already lost people.

10,000 people in a month in Gaza, 10,000 people. I do not want to make that about like what it means for Democrats in November of 2024. But, and regarding the counter Islamophobia campaign that we're seeing from the Biden administration, they're doing it because they're seeing that they're losing Arab and Muslim voters. That's why they're doing it. Yes.

And they need that to win states like Michigan. It's a large donor base as well. And they can read these tea leaves. There was a recent poll from Data for Progress conducted from October 18th through 19th.

It found that even then, a majority of Americans support a ceasefire. 80% of Democrats and 56% of Republicans support a ceasefire and de-escalation of violence in Gaza. This is the thing. The reality is most people want this to stop. They want it to stop. It is so interesting to talk about all of this and know that America is still, at the moment, sending weapons to Israel to help them fight.

We have seen national polling show that most Americans don't want this. They want to cease fire. We've seen protests across the country and bodies like the UN and other agencies across the world say they want this to end. What does it feel like to be an American seeing that and still knowing that our government is supporting the things that the world says that they want to stop? And I want to underscore the question, and I'm going to take it to you, Zach, first. Do you feel that the protests are working? Mm-hmm.

I don't think they're working in terms of... Actually, no. They're beginning. They're not working as quickly as I thought. I'm seeing incredible resistance from the Biden White House to try to look away, to try to not see what's in front of them, to not see what a lot of people want. And what's so shocking to me is what people are asking for. When we say ceasefire, what people are trying to communicate is...

I want these hostages released. I want children to stop dying. I want it all to stop so we can talk about it, 'cause we all wanna talk about it. We all wanna come together. And the continued bombing of this area of the world is not allowing anyone to come to the table. You have the royal family of Jordan not willing to talk until this stops. It's like, why can't we just stop? And I know that former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says the ceasefire will only let Hamas continue to bomb and continue the violence.

I haven't honestly seen the proof to stand that up. I don't know. I'm not a national security expert. But what I do know through my short time on this earth is that continued war, continued bombing doesn't allow people to ever come to a resolution. I also know that they're not just bombing. They're bombing hospitals. They're bombing refugee camps. Ambulances. It's hard to look at this and not say, stop it. I will say to answer your question, Saeed, I do think the protests are working.

I think about the way in which Americans and young people specifically are talking about Israel and its relationship to the region and to America. There are new conversations happening and there are questions being asked that were not being asked a decade ago. So yes, the work is slow, but it's steady. And I feel a change. I feel a change. And that's significant.

I think the protests are definitely working on us. Protests function in all kinds of ways. Like I mentioned, when you think you're the only person who supports a ceasefire, that's gonna impact you. But when you finally show up at a protest in London or in Cincinnati or Los Angeles, and you're surrounded by hundreds of thousands of other people clear-throated saying ceasefire, ceasefire, wow, that's powerful. It's an opportunity for education. You're gonna learn more about the history. You're gonna learn different ways to support.

For the government, for the Biden administration, I think they're nervous. I think they're scared, as they should be. And I'm totally okay with them being nervous and scared. Just because I vote for you doesn't mean I like you or that I want you to be happy. I want you to be scared of me so that you actually listen to me and my fellow constituents. And so I think that's what's happening. I want to see more, like until there's literally a ceasefire, I'm

I'm not satisfied. But again, going back to the beginning of the war on terror, to the beginning of the invasion of Iraq and contrasted those protests, as far as government went at the time, it was like those protests didn't even happen. It was like absolute erasure. And this is not being erased. Like people know, they know. Yeah. All right. Time for a break. When we come back more on Israel and Palestine and what happens next. This is Vibe Check. Stay tuned.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

We are back. You're listening to Vibe Check. We are talking about a growing global consensus for a ceasefire. And I think it's a good time to talk about what perhaps the most popular Democrat in America has been saying about all of this. I'm not talking about Joe Biden. I'm talking about Barack Obama. He has been making the rounds the past week to mark the 15 year anniversary of his election to the White House.

And he was recently on Pod Save America, and he talked about what's happening in Palestine, and he said it's unbearable. We're going to play here that Obama clip from Pod Save America where he talks about the conflict. And a warning, listeners, this cuts kind of long, but it's important to hear most of it for context. If there's any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity.

and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas, that what Hamas did was horrific and there's no justification for it. And what is also true is that the occupation and what's happening to Palestinians is unbearable. And what is also true is that there is a history...

of the Jewish people that may be dismissed unless your grandparents or your great-grandparents or your uncle or your aunt tell you stories about the madness of antisemitism. And what is true is that there are people right now who are dying

who have nothing to do with what Hamas did. I mean, we can go on for a while. And the problem with the social media and trying to TikTok activism and trying to debate this on that is you can't speak the truth. You can pretend to speak the truth. You can speak one side of the truth.

And in some cases, you can try to maintain your moral innocence, but that won't solve the problem. And so if you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody's hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree. But there's a part of me that's still saying, well, was there something else I could have done?

That's the conversation we should be having. And that can't happen if we are confining ourselves to our outrage. If you genuinely want to change this, then you've got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it. What do we make of this, if anything? Even Barack Obama seems to be moving left on Palestine.

I think what it's pointing towards and where I think Obama wants to go and Biden will eventually arrive is, you know, a return to what was really big for a while was a two-state solution. You know, creating a government where everyone is equal under the law. They have representation in the government. There's an expansion of the borders.

all of that, and I think Obama knows we can't get there unless there is a real conversation around the very complicated history of occupation in the region. And occupation meaning who has power there, who maintains power, who doesn't have as much power, how does it change, how does it shift it, but without that really being flushed out more and then formalized through a two-state solution, I don't think real peace is ever gonna arrive to the area, and I do think he is aware, similar to the Queen of Jordan,

who also won't meet with Biden right now, who's also echoing this, the same language of saying, you know, we have to talk about this being an occupation to move forward. Yeah. Well, and it feels as if there's finally an acknowledgement of the reality of

In the relationship between a region like Gaza and Israel, it's not a fair fight if one side fighting has the ability to cut off water and electricity to the other side. It's not a fair fight if one side controls all of the borders for the other side to flee. And so hearing Barack Obama call it an occupation is acknowledging the reality of the skewed nature of these relationships.

relationship. And that feels like progress. And it also points to the reality within Gaza with Hamas. You know, Hamas may have been elected once upon a time, but since coming into power, they have ripped away any semblance of a democracy, of any voting, of any power to the people. So that has been lost to people living in Gaza. And I think if we talk about occupation in

all the complications within the region. We also get to that part of it, that getting rid of Hamas is bringing back a government that the people actually have a voice in. That represents the people. That represents them, so they have some sort of power. Like these people, we have to be very clear. They're powerless. They're powerless. Like Hamas is literally underneath the people who are above ground and letting them die while they're hiding. So, you know, this is the focus here, and this is what we have to really talk about. Well, to be honest with y'all, okay, I have...

I've read and reread President Obama's comments in part because I didn't want to be so swayed by his excellent. I mean, what a public speaker. What an orator. He's a lawyer. He's good at the words. And I was like, set it aside, Saeed. Do not listen to the siren song because it's a feast of crumbs.

On one hand, to use his own rhetorical construction, I love he was trying to honor all of the nuances. On one hand, it is noteworthy and striking that a former U.S. president would use the word occupation to discuss what's happening in Israel and Palestine. In my experience, I don't think that's happened before. Right? Yeah. On the other hand, it's crumbs because ultimately what he does in that

He goes through all of these nuances and then he pivots and does two things. One, his solution is that we should talk to each other. We should talk to each other nicer. We should read more books and talk to each other nicer. And what he does before that, he starts criticizing young people, basically TikTok activism. Yeah.

And it's like, it's so funny how politicians feel. And this is also true, like politicians, like whether you're Obama or Bernie Sanders or John Fetterman. It's so funny their feelings about young people on social media when it helps them get elected as opposed to when they're in office and being called to account by those same young people. People change up real quick. I just feel that, and just here's some statistics. This is from...

Imani Jamal, she runs the Arab Barometer Project, which is a survey project. Their last survey actually was right before October 7th. So it's pretty striking. And they do things like interview people living in Gaza.

Sixty-seven percent of people living in Gaza at the time when all of this started in October said they had little or no trust in Hamas. Sixty percent of people living in Gaza at the time said they do not feel they have the right to freedom of expression under Hamas.

70% of people living in Gaza at the time said they feel that they do not have the right to peaceful protest in Gaza under Hamas. So what is striking and what I learned from listening to Amani Jamal's conversation with Ezra Klein on his podcast is that people in Gaza are living under – it's like a double consciousness in a way or triple consciousness. Yeah.

It's not just their relationship with Israeli government, right? Which already treats them as less than secondhand citizens. It doesn't treat them like citizens. But within Gaza as well, Hamas is also a dictatorial force, right? They haven't had elections. They haven't gotten to vote since 2006. These are people who have not been able to do what I'm gonna get to go do today, vote about the state of politics and affairs in which I live.

And so I just feel that when these people have so little power, even within Gaza, and 10,000 of them have been killed in a month.

And all a former Democratic president can say is people on TikTok need to chill out and we need to have nicer conversations? No, I'm not going to praise him for that. It's infuriating. And here's the thing. It's such a contrast to the language used by people who study this for a living. We have seen in the last few weeks since this conflict began, high ranking officials in the UN leaving,

In protest. High-ranking officials in the State Department leaving in protest. There was a director in the New York office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. His name was Craig McIver. And he resigned in protest over what's happening in Gaza. And he used the word genocide. And there are a lot of people who do this work for a living using that word.

And you compare that to the words being used by Biden or Obama, and it's night and day. I don't want to argue semantics right now, but I do want to say the words the world is using compared to the words that U.S. leaders are using, entirely different. Entirely different. What I feel comfortable saying is this is collective punishment.

And I'm going to read the definition of it. Collective punishment is a penalty that is imposed on a group of people without considering individual responsibility for actions that led to the punishment. It is considered unfair and is prohibited by the Geneva Convention. And so think about those statistics I just said. People who are like, we don't feel that we have freedom of expression, we don't get to vote, and we don't get to protest because of Hamas.

And those are the people being punished. And so the example that this law institute that I'm reading, they said, for example, a few individuals at a protest start throwing stones at police. Instead of identifying and punishing those individuals, the police decide to use tear gas on the entire crowd, including peaceful protesters. This is an example of collective punishment. That's what's happening in the example. And that's what's happening in Gaza. These people are being collectively punished, and that is wrong.

And collectively punished and also the way in which we're talking about them doesn't accept the realities they're facing. Israel is saying – others are saying, well, they should flee. They should flee. They should flee. Get out of the north. Go to the south. The borders are closed to them by the people who occupy them. They can't just leave. Even the language we're using to describe their plight doesn't accept and speak to how much these people are stoned.

literally, figuratively. To add to that, something I find so striking because I see it posted daily is you see this conversation around humanitarian aid and who should be giving it and why does Israel need to give it to or whoever need to give it to the citizens of Gaza. People always point to the fact that Hamas has

a lot of water, a lot of fuel, all of these things. And they're like, well, these people should look to Hamas for this, not us. But it goes back to what you're saying, Saeed, is that these people don't have anyone taking care of them at all. Even these officials, this leadership in their country or their region do not care about them at all. So no one is caring about them, but yet we are making them

Kind of the punching, not kind of, we are making them the punching bag for something Hamas did that was so brutal, so awful. There does need to be accountability towards. But these people who are living or trying to get treatment in the hospitals right now are not the people that signaled those attacks on October 7th. I mean, there have been several incidents in the last month of people from Gaza,

trying to evacuate, trying to go along, that when there have been these brief humanitarian pauses, which sometimes are just for a few hours or an afternoon, and they've been bombed, and then the people walking down these routes, and they have to walk because they don't even have enough fuel to drive, by the way. Where do you even know you can go if you don't have access to phones and internet? You can't communicate with your family members, for example, in the West Bank and say, we're coming. You don't know that they're walking by dead bodies on the road. I

I can't find it right now. I have too many links open in front of me. But listening to one man who lived in Gaza and he said, yeah, I know that they want us to leave. But he's like, I'm not leaving. I would rather die in my home than die on the road is what this man said. Well, and the fear is if they leave, will they ever get to come back? Will they ever have to come back?

And that plays, and I think on both sides, what we are seeing is, you know, ancient trauma that has been passed down from generation to generation. And I just have to acknowledge that on both sides that, you know, people are thinking about ancestral homes and what does that mean and how do I stay there? And, you know, I just have to recognize that, you know, folks who are saying, and I've seen this in their interviews, I don't want to leave my home because they look back, you know, 75 years ago and they saw what happened.

when they left the homes then and they were never allowed back. So, you know, we just have to understand the long histories and the trauma. And, you know, to quote Christina Sharp, you know, or to paraphrase her, the wake in which these people are living in from things that happened way before they were ever alive. And I want to use this moment to acknowledge yet again, you know, we are not trying to ignore trauma

anti-Semitism across the globe. We are not trying to ignore this attack brought by Hamas, the hostages still being held by Hamas. We oppose the hatred and the violence on all sides. Nearly a thousand innocent people were killed on October 7th by Hamas, 200 hostages. Very few of those hostages have been returned to safety. I'll tell you what I do know. War is not going to bring any of those people back.

War is not going to make anyone safer. Do you feel safer today a month now? I don't know 20 years after the beginning of the war on terror for example I can tell you the United States is not safer. I

In fact, I would argue war consistently makes things worse. Yeah. I want to, as we close, just ask, what are y'all doing in a situation like this? You know, we see so much collective action calling for one kind of response that we have not seen yet. How are you making peace with what you can do and what you can't do in this moment?

You know, for me, I'm feeling really overwhelmed by everything and I still have so much room to learn and understand what's happening. So I'm spending a lot of time not talking and just listening to those around me, reading what's coming out, really engaging with, you know, this history and these stories that just aren't mine. You know, I'm not from the region. I don't have an ancestral connection to it. And I want to respect those that do and kind of how they're moving through the situation. So I'm just, you know, paying witness to it all and leaning in.

Something I know I can do is resist the way war and politics turn human beings into numbers. I can't and I refuse to grieve statistics. I grieve people. So one thing I'm doing, and this is similar to what Zach is saying, I've just been thinking about

media war itself flattens human beings into statistics and how you know one in part because often literally their ability to communicate and have access to things like the internet is often being intentionally shut down by IDF Gazans are being silenced while they are being attacked and

And so I'm trying my best to find opportunities to listen to and read their narratives. And I just, if it's okay, I just want to read a little bit. This is from The New Yorker. Masab Abu Toha is a writer and poet who is living in one of the refugee camps that was bombed on October 31st. And the title of this piece is The Agony of Waiting for a Ceasefire That Never Comes. And I will just read two paragraphs, if that's okay.

On October 31st, we are at home when three big explosions shake us. The windows break. Rubble and dust fly into the living room. We all rush into the two bedrooms looking at the ceiling. A bomb has fallen 70 meters away. It wipes out the whole neighborhood. Later, when a CNN anchor asks an IDF spokesperson about the civilians, the spokesperson says, this is the tragedy of war. If not for war...

I would be playing soccer with my friends twice a week. I would be watching movies with my wife. I would be reading the books on my shelves. I would be taking my kids to the playground and to the beach. I'd be riding the bike with my son Yazan on the beach road. But now there are no books and no shelves and no beach road. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for that. What about you? Yeah. What are you doing? I am trying to use every moment I can to be a Google-able, teachable moment. I've had a lot of conversations about this with friends and new friends the last few weeks. I've done a lot of reading myself. But every time I get to a point in a conversation or reading something and I say, oh, what's that? I stop right there. I write it down. And I say, research this. Find out what the fuck it is.

This is an opportunity for us to all learn more. You know, my knowledge of this conflict has increased two or threefold in the last few weeks, and I hope it continues to do so.

All I can do right now is try to educate myself and know more. There's so much to know. There's so much we don't know. So whenever I get to a moment where I feel stuck in this conversation, I try to see it as a chance to learn something else, to learn a bit more about this thing. That's all I can do. That's all I'm trying to do right now. That's real. It feels like the theme here is just engage. Engage. Listeners, tell us how you're getting through this.

what you're reading, what you're feeling, what conversations you're having. This will not be the last time that we bring up this topic on Vibe Check, and we would love your insight and perspective as we keep this conversation going. All right, time for a break. When we come back, some recommendations to keep your vibe right. ♪

NetCredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and serviced by NetCredit. Applications subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com slash partner. NetCredit. Credit to the people.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

All right, listeners, we are back. And before we end the show, we'd each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes right this week. And to get us going, I'd love to throw to Sam Sanders and hear what's helping him over there. What's keeping my vibe right is a very smooth, easy-listening jazz album called Welcome Home by an artist named Gareth Duncan.

I had never heard of Gareth Duncan before. He looks to be about 12. But K-Star W played this young child on the radio a few weeks ago, and I said, I like it, I like it. It's a little white boy who was making some sultry, soulful R&B jazz. If you want to just chill...

If you want to just put on a candle and some incense and vibe, this is the album for you. The whole thing just feels classic. It feels like grown folks music. It feels like auntie music. Which we love. It's good shit. Gareth Duncan, D-O-N-K-I-N.

And the album's called Welcome Home. When you say R&B jazz, is it instrumental? Is he singing as well? He sings. He sings, but he is playing that sort of thing. A 12-year-old singing R&B is part of it. He's not 12. He's an adult. Oh, okay. I literally had an image of a little 12-year-old. He looks quite young. I'm going to show you the picture of him. He looks so young. This little twink singing R&B. I love it.

Anywho, it's good. It's good. It's one of those things where it's like every few years you discover that song you thought was sung by a black person was actually sung by a white person. Oh my God. This is that energy. Can we talk about this? Can we do it? Okay, wait. So on TikTok...

glad you mentioned this. So on TikTok, I can't remember her name, but there's a black woman who's doing a series of people she thought were black when she was a kid and now she's finding out they're white. And I was like, okay, interesting. And she mentions people like John B., which I was like, I remember that. Bobby Caldwell. I remember that. Bobby Caldwell is obviously a famous example. Jamiroquai. Yes. He's a little black though, right? No, he's not. He's a white British man. First of all, his...

First of all, Jamiroquai is the name of the group. I didn't even know that. He went by JK or something. White British man. I just figured he was like a light-skinned Jamaican dude. Girl, he got some ethnicity in him. No, he doesn't. Sam, he is a white British man. Wow. Girl. Sorry to distract from your recommendation, but I was like, ooh. We should do a whole segment on music.

Hell, even Jungle. I still like their music and it's a vibe. But I don't think there's a single black person up in there. Not a single POC, I don't think. Listen, that said, listeners, play that new Gareth Duncan album and write us in to tell us your favorite white folks who sound black. Gareth is like, wait a minute. Gareth is like, I'm just out of here. And look, album cover is his face. He ain't trying to do no, he ain't using sepia tones. Gareth is not faking the funk. Gareth is who he is. And I thank you for it, Gareth.

Zach, what's yours this week? Okay, I'll go to mine. So mine is a book called Reign of Terror, How the 9-11 Era Disstabilized America and Produced Donald Trump. And it's by Spencer Ackerman, who has been a mentor of mine for years. We worked at The Guardian together. We did a lot of really big stories, and he changed my life in more ways than he'll ever realize. But this book is his first big book, and it's based off his reporting over decades into the war that came after 9-11. And he argues that, you know,

our response to 9-11 is why Donald Trump's in office. And it's very, very interesting. But something he talks a lot about in the book that I just want to read a quick quote is kind of the racialization of terrorism and how we name things terrorists, depending on like the ethnicity of a person.

And he posits a lot of this in how we responded to the Oklahoma City bombing in the 90s, which was with Timothy McVeigh, which was the biggest, we called it the biggest terrorist attack ever on American ground for a while until 9-11. And even in the wake of that, even though he was a white supremacist, we were blaming Muslims and Muslims immigrating to America as creating the environment that created this moment.

And so when 9-11 happened, the machinery of war just changed overnight because America finally got its excuse to launch this project in the Middle East. And he writes, when terrorism was white, America sympathized with principled objections against unleashing the coercive, punitive, and violent powers of the state.

When terrorism was white, the prospect of criminalizing a large swath of Americans was unthinkable. And that book just helps you think about whiteness and how it is weaponized and how white folks who do acts of terror are never treated or dealt with in certain ways. But then people of color not only are dealt with with great severity by the state, but our entire community is also held accountable for it. So the book helps you kind of see the nuances. And some of it does lead us to what we're seeing in the Middle East now, which she writes about a bit. But it's a really wonderful book.

Okay. Love it. Saeed, your pick of the week. I know it's a poem, so I'm just really excited. It's a poem. It's a poem. And actually, first, I'm going to give you a bit of a setup. So the poem I'm going to read is, the title is An American Sonnet for My Past and Future Assassin.

by Terrence Hayes, an incredible, incredible poet. Someone I think of as a mentor of mine on the page. I've taken actually a couple of classes with him. So a sonnet, traditionally, a traditional sonnet is 14 lines long. It tends to be about love in some way and tends to have what's called a volta at the end, which is a turn. So you kind of like you're moving and then usually around line 12, there's some kind of turn that is often unexpected or pushes us toward change.

Oh, and it has a rhyme scheme. An American Sonnet is a looser version of it. And when President Trump was elected, I believe for a year, Terrence Hayes wrote an American Sonnet a day as he was kind of working through these feelings in American politics. So he has an entire book that's titled American Sonnets for My Past and Future Assassin. Yeah.

I would leave it to listeners to think about what the idea of a past and future assassin may be. Is it history? Is it white supremacy? You know, interesting idea. One other thing that you should know with this poem, when he says Jim in the poem, it's like the place, G-Y-M.

And I point that out because I do think it's supposed to be confusing because he says Jim, but you're also going to hear Crow. And so you think of Jim Crow. And I think part of what he's drawing attention to is the way in which a racist concept can become a place in which you are forced to live, which is to say we live within white supremacy. Okay. We, I'm so excited about this poem. American Sonnet for My Past and Future, Assassin by Terrence Hayes.

I lock you in an American sonnet that is part prison, part panic closet. A little room in a house set aflame. I lock you in a form that is part music box, part meat grinder to separate the song of the bird from the bone. I lock your persona in a dream-inducing sleeper hold while your better selves watch from the bleachers.

I make you both Jim and Crow here. As the Crow, you undergo a beautiful catharsis trapped one night in the shadows of the Jim. As the Jim, the feel of Crow shit dropping to your floors is not unlike the stars falling from the pep rally posters on your walls. I make you a box of darkness with a bird in its heart.

Voltas of acoustics, instinct, and metaphor. It is not enough to love you. It is not enough to want you destroyed.

That is American Sonnet for My Past and Future Assassin by Terrence Hayes. And I would highly recommend, and I do this every week, but I don't know if listeners do this, but when Saeed begins to read the poem, I read along as he reads. It's just such a beautiful experience because you also then see the nuances. Like the gym is really impactful when you're reading it and hearing it. It just, it's wonderful. I love that. Well,

With that, listeners, what are you feeling? What are you not feeling this week? What's your vibe? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. All right, listeners, thanks as always for listening, for checking out this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show, want to support the show, make sure to follow this show on your favorite podcast listening platform and literally tell a friend to their face IRL. Real words out of your mouth to another person. Do it.

Huge thank you to our producer, Chantal Holder, engineers, Veronica Simonetti and Sam Kiefer, and Marcus Hom for our theme music and sound design. Also, special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. Also, big thanks to our intern, Julia Russo, this week.

Listeners, we want to hear from you. Do not forget to email us whenever you want. We're vibecheckatstitcher.com. Vibecheckatstitcher.com. Also, stay in touch with us on Instagram at Sam Sanders, at Zach Staff, Zach with an H, and at The Ferocity. Use the hashtag VibeCheckPod if you post about us on social. And stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Till then...

Go watch Yellow Jackets if you do. Live your life. Go eat a Snickers. Go vote. Yeah. Go vote. Yes. Yes. Bye. Bye.

David taught himself how to make bread. Good bread. He wanted to get even better. So he asked Chet GPT on Expedia if there's such a thing as a bread vacation. Chet GPT said, sure. Do you want to go to Normandy, Morocco, Ireland, or Tuscany? And that's how David became a master pizzaiolo. You were made to learn new things. We were made to give you trip ideas with Chet GPT, right in our app. Expedia, made to travel.