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Hello, singular lady. I've been waiting for this because we can be like, hello, sister. Sister, it's just the two of us. I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And you, my sisters, are listening to Vibe Check. Vibe Check.

This is the first time ever it's just been the two of us. I know. And it was like a holiday weekend. I was like, ooh, a lot of change. A lot going on. Yeah. So our dearest Zach Stafford, he is currently across the pond. He's in Berlin for like a film festival and some other stuff. We're going to hear from him while he's away for just a bit, but mostly it is Saeed and I riding duo today. I'm excited about it.

I'm excited. And, you know, it's like, what, this is the beginning of Pisces season. It's also, I don't know what's been going on in California, but I don't know what's happening here in Columbus. But all month long, it's been incredibly windy. Like a friend's fence just got knocked down. It's like my dog is barking because he keeps hearing. It just like keeps happening. And I just feel like a lot of tumult, a lot of change and transformation, which honestly feels like it works with both of our topics today.

Oh, yeah. So this week we have two really, really interesting topics that are kind of connected because they both deal with emotion. The first is the news about Senator John Fetterman. He checked himself into the hospital last week.

to be treated for depression. And that's a big deal. I don't think I've ever seen a U.S. senator do that during their tenure. I think it's good. More power to him and lots to discuss there. Power to him and power to us for getting better about mental health, I think. Yeah, yeah. And then next, we will talk about a woman who loves to write about all kinds of emotions really, really well, SZA. She's broken a record. Her album, S.O.S., will not leave the top of the charts.

which makes us say it's a good time to talk about SZA. Shoot up that flare, baby. S-O-S. S-O-S. We're going to get there in just a bit, but first we're going to check on our emotional state, our vibes. Saeed, how are you doing? What's your vibe this week? Ooh.

Everything feels close to home in fun and not fun ways. The not fun way is, of course, I'm still thinking about the fallout of the disaster in East Palestine, Ohio. Thank you to readers who have written in. I'm glad, you know, our discussion last week resonated. It's really striking and disturbing to,

reading about cities like Louisville, Kentucky, and Cincinnati, Ohio, diverting their water sources out of concern about like, they're just like, it's an abundance of caution about how those chemicals might've impacted the Ohio River. But like Columbus is about a hundred miles from Cincinnati. You know what I mean? So like it is a national story in terms of significance, but obviously it feels very personal, but also in terms of like,

I guess, fun close to home. We're talking about SZA. And then I was like, oh my gosh, SZA's performing in Columbus tonight. Now, I won't see her because my bank account said, you must choose. Yeah. Yeah. My bank account was like, either you're sending up that SOS flair or you're taking your disco ball to Renaissance. And what's it going to be? And let me fact check here. I think you're going to Renaissance more than once. Yeah.

Mind your business. Mind your business.

Just saying. But then, okay, so the third thing where I was like, what's going on? I was like, it's Vibe Check My Life. This weekend I went to a drag show. It was a contest called The Battle of the Ballads. I'm like, okay. And it was like really fun. It was actually very diverse. There were like cis men doing, you know, their thing. There were cis women, obviously like gay drag queens, everything. And then one of the drag queens got up there and sang Bonnie Raitt's I'm

I Can't Make You Love Me. And I was like, wow. It's funny you mentioned that because every now and then I get together with a good podcaster friend of mine named Kevin Porter. He hosts a podcast called Good Christian Fun. And we just get together every two weeks and months and jam out. And we played Bonnie Raitt's I Can't Make You Love Me. I'll actually find the video and post it. It was good. I was jamming out to it this weekend. That song is in the air. I feel it. And it's funny that

to mention Bonnie again because there's a spiritual through line to what Bonnie was doing and what SZA is doing. Yes. We're going to talk about it. I'm really excited. So yeah, I just feel for better or worse, like in rhythm, like so many of the things that are on our hearts and minds that we're talking about, like it feels like everywhere I turn, I'm like, oh wow, there it is again, which is,

I guess a good thing, but a little startling maybe. You know? How are you? What's your vibe? My vibe... So we had a holiday weekend in general. I love those. It's good. The weather's starting to feel pretty good in LA. Like, there was a moment this weekend where I was outside hiking and broke a sweat. And I was like, oh, it's hot. I like. But there was one thing that happened to me while I was out and about Monday, President's Day. And...

That just has me thinking about how all of us in general need to be really careful about how we interact with strangers out in the world. Because even when you think you're doing right, you can ruin someone's day.

So I'm going to set it up really quick and just tell you what happened because I want to vent about it. I'm ready. So my partner has wanted to get a new electric bike for a while. They have some bikes now where like the battery is in the frame of the bike and they can power the bike up to like 20 miles an hour. It kind of gives you an extra push. Like one pedal will take you like half a block. Yeah. It ain't for me. That scares me. But he wanted to get it. So I drove him out to Santa Monica to test drive one.

And while he was going to test drive it riding through Santa Monica for like 10 or 15 minutes, I went to like grab some coffee.

So I'm walking back to the bike store while he's still out biking for his test drive. But I see him about to bike up to the store as I'm like walking up or like at a red light. So I start like teasingly like catcalling him. I'm like, oh, there's some fries come with that shake. You sure do look good on that bike. How's it going? Then he leans back and kind of interacts with me as well. It's funny. It's cute. It's a moment.

But then as I'm walking and he's pulling up with his bike back to the bike shop, this woman like grabs his shoulder and says, are you okay? Is he bothering you? And so I see it happen. He's like, what are you even talking about? Then she walks away like with her latte and yoga mat and

But when I see him, I was like, I think I know what happened. Tell me what happened. He tells me and I was like, you know, she only did that because I am black and you are not. He's biracial, but based on the time of day or year or length of his hair, he could be any number of things. But it was definitely an interaction where this woman who thought she was doing the right thing kind of ruined my day because of what she doesn't expect and

two people of a different race to be doing with each other. It's like throwing a pail of cold water on Michael. Yeah. It was like a really fun little moment. Yeah. The reminder for me in that moment was like,

check yourself and your assumptions and your biases. Do that. Because before you know it, you're ruining someone's day or worse, getting them in trouble. What if this woman was like, I should call the cops? Right. You know what I'm saying? Thinking that she didn't go take it there. Yeah. And so like, it's fine. I'm all right. But for a few hours, I was just like, F that. So my vibe right now is just like, in general to all people, mind your business.

It's like I'm trying to be generous of spirit, right? Yeah, yeah. People are being harassed and stuff like that. Sure, you don't want to be a bystander when something obviously bad is going on. But it's also kind of like maybe take one more beat and kind of read. It's like, is your partner looking distressed? No, he's fine. In fact, y'all are talking. He was talking back to me. Yeah, exactly. So it's a little, yeah.

You don't have to be the hero of this story. Exactly. With that, let's hear a little bit from our third sister who is not here in taping with us. As we told you, Zach is in Europe, but he left us a little update. Let's play it now.

Hey, ladies. It's me. It's Zach. I am not with you this week. And I'm really sad. This is actually quite weird because last week we had such a big week. We had Jennifer Hudson. We had a board in Times Square. And there's just so much else that was happening. It was just so wonderful. And now I'm in Berlin.

With like the cold and the films and all this other stuff. So I'm in Berlin, as some of you know, for the Berlin Film Festival. This year I am going to lots of festivals. It's been quite a journey and that's for like another day. I'll tell you why. But I have been seeing so many movies and I get to be in Germany and it's just been...

Been so wonderful so far. And that's kind of where my vibe's at this week. I'm back in a place that I love so much. I think Berlin is one of the most underrated European cities. It's just a really, really beautiful place. And maybe when I'm back, I'll give people like a rundown of where you should go. But what you should know is that in honor of Lydia Tarr being up for election,

And Lydia Tarr is obviously Cate Blanchett in the movie. I am channeling her in the good ways, not the terrible ways in the movie, but in the good ways of her being chic and fashionable and running around Berlin this week. So you may catch me at the Berlin Symphony or doing other bougie Lydia Tarr things because I'm very much that girl this week.

But I miss everyone. I hope everyone's great. I can't wait to listen to what y'all talk about. It's so exciting to be a fan sometimes. Like, I think life is really fun when you get to be a fan of people around you. And this week, I'm a fan of Vibe Check. So you guys enjoy and you're going to be brilliant. Oh my gosh. That was so cute. I love it. I've never been to Berlin. Have you? I have.

I have, but it's been a while. I was there for like a month in 2012. It was early when I was writing How We Fight For Our Lives, and I just pretended I was living in Berlin, and I wrote in cafes. It is. It's a great—I haven't been there in the winter. That's my thing. I was there in the summer, but it's really beautiful, and I could see why he would love it. We need to go back. Maybe we'll take a group trip.

I'm down. I mean, I will say if he's living that Lydia Tarr best life, I'm so jealous. Y'all gotta let Lydia Tarr go. I'm like, isn't the whole point of the movie that she's like not someone you necessarily want to emulate? But she's low-key aspirational, save for the bad parts. The clothes, the house, the style, the car.

But Zach, baby, have a great time. We miss you, Zach. Have fun. We do miss you. We do miss you. Okay, well, before we get into this week's episode, we want to thank all of you who sent us fan mail and reached out to us on social media. It was really great reading over the weekend your breakup playlist and just hearing how last week's episode resonated with you. And I mean, we had a good time on the Jennifer Hudson show, too, we should say. It was so fun. Yeah.

But it was also fun seeing like how excited y'all were. You know, it's a back and forth. It was really cool. And shout out to Jennifer. She's built a really welcoming, comforting, warm, like friendly, happy space on that show. Space, which is not an easy thing to do, but deeply needed. And so we loved getting to be a part of that. And again, you guys can always email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. We love, whoo, let me. Ah!

It stays. Chantel, it stays. Damn it. Stitcher.com. Oh, my God. The chaos. The chaos. All right. Let's jump in, shall we? The contradictions. I'm done. All right. So to kick things off...

On February 16th, Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania announced that he was checking into the Walter Reed Medical Center to treat a case of obdurate. And I had to look up this term. It basically means persistent, kind of stubborn depression. His aides say they expect him to return from inpatient care in a few weeks.

And as Sam noted, this is certainly the first time, at least in our recent memory, but I would also argue in recent history that a sitting US senator or in someone of that kind of scale of US politics has been so candid about their mental health.

You might recall that Fetterman had a stroke last May while he was campaigning for the U.S. Senate, and that was, of course, complicated. One-third of people who've experienced a stroke deal with depression afterward. But what I thought was interesting in an article for The Atlantic magazine titled John Fetterman and the Performance of Wellness by journalist Jennifer Senior, she made a great point. She said, Fetterman's office couldn't

have blamed his depression on his stroke, which of course is a common cause of depression. But instead the office made a point of saying that Fetterman had had depression in the past, right? So he could have kind of directed it in a different way and kind of said like this is a fluke. But there is something powerful to someone of his kind of political stature being like, no, I have depression, many people do. I'm not gonna pretend like it's not a part of my life.

And something else that Senior does in the article that I thought was helpful that I wanted to talk about is she cites the work of sociologist Irving Goffman, who drew a distinction between front stage and backstage selves.

Senior explains, in short, our front stage selves are controlled, formal, fit for public consumption. And she points out like it's hard to think of a role, a job role that's more public and front stage than being a senator. I mean, you're just kind of always expected to be on, right? And then she notes that our backstage selves are unvarnished.

less filtered, generally reserved for intimates, the people we are when we drop the facade, which is like the antithesis of being like a U.S. senator. And so when you think about depression, she says that basically this means every high-functioning depressed person has a self that they are trying very hard to conceal.

and that this concealment is work, right? You're performing your wellness. For some people, that can be more exhausting than their actual day job. - Yeah.

There's a lot here. There's a lot there. Yeah. You know, on top of first just saying I'm so proud of him and his team for being able to be candid and honest about mental health issues as someone we all deal with mental health issues in our family and our friends circles. And I've seen moments in my and others lives where there isn't enough candor and honesty. So to see this.

in front of the nation's politics. It's really brave, and I salute and commend all of them for doing this, one. But something that stands out when you were going through those points and this idea from the article of the front stage self and the backstage self, I think increasingly in this era of social media and internet and all the apps, we don't even know where those lines are anymore, which makes it even harder to navigate mental health.

When you live in the world but also live on five different apps and you're always kind of performing something, what is your front stage self? What is your backstage self? And how can you navigate mental health in that weird minefield? And when I think of that, it makes –

Perfect sense that the latest data on teenagers shows that they are struggling with their mental health, perhaps even more than adults right now. You've probably seen the data now. It came out last week. But the latest numbers, according to the CDC, show that nearly three in five teenage girls felt persistent sadness in 2021. That's double the rate of boys. And then one in three girls seriously considered attempting suicide.

You know, so what Fetterman is dealing with is highlighting what is actually a crisis for all of us across all age demos and race and background and gender. So it makes me even more proud of him to do this and own this and be open about it. But it also just speaks to this larger problem.

That a lot of us aren't doing what Fetterman has done in being open and honest about our mental health care. And it's hurting the youngest of us the most, which just breaks my heart. Gosh, yeah, you just lit up so much for me. You know, when I was in college, there was a classmate of mine who was really mean. She was not a nice person.

But what I always found interesting and what stays with me all these years later is that when she was about to be her most brutal, you know, and just callous to someone, she would preface it by saying, I'm just keeping it real. I'm just keeping it real. And then would just like totally kind of go for the gut. And I say that because...

Fetterman already has an incredible, obviously he's been in politics for over a decade in terms of local politics in Pennsylvania, right? So he's not doing the game, but he already has an incredible legacy of realness. And I think in this era, whether it's young people or politicians and Marjorie Taylor Greene is someone who comes to mind as someone who will be like, I'm just keeping it real. I'm the real, where authenticity as a brand is so false.

I'm really inspired by John Fetterman and the people who work to support him, right? It seems like there's a synergy there that, you know, both in terms of how he was dealing with the stroke, how he was dealing with the accommodations he needed, right? Like doing interviews and having the audio to text captioning and all of that. And then again, the candor here with like, no, this is not a fluke. This is something he's been dealing with for a while. That's really powerful because-

When someone you respect hides what they're going through, you know, or make, you know, you know what I mean? You, I think, internalize that too. Yeah. And I think what's really interesting about the tightrope that politicians on the national stage have to navigate is,

They have to perform superhuman-ness just to win. They have to basically make themselves into superheroes to win. For women, they have to be tough while also beautiful and in heels. For men, they've got to prove they're some kind of gladiator. I think of these GOP men running for Congress who show off their guns in the ads. There's this expectation of performance and a performance of hyper-masculinity, hyper-femininity,

or superhumanist, right? And so it would be hard in any job to say, I got to take some time off now for depression. But in that kind of job where there is such an expectation of performance, it makes it even that much more brave for him to do it

But my question with all of this is like, what does it change for all of us, for the rest of us? I don't think we're going to see any more American politicians at that level be more candid about their mental health. But I do hope that what happens is that he just sparks a conversation. I think the first thing that always has to happen before anyone –

deals with those kind of issues is to just say it out loud. I'm dealing with this. This is bugging me. Today, I feel X, Y, Z. And saying that to yourself in the mirror, saying it to friends and family, that's the first step. And my hope is that

this news from Fetterman's camp just prompts and sparks some conversations. But I don't think that this moment for him changes the dynamics of performance that politicians at his level face. Yeah. And I mean, I think there are some exceptions. I think of Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I remember her doing a series of Instagram lives after the January 6

attack on the Capitol. And I remember her speaking just really, and it was, there's always a balance because of literal national security and all these kind of, it's an ongoing investigation at that point. So there were limits to, I think, understandably the detail. But I remember being impressed by

Mm-hmm.

to see people kind of acknowledging that. But I love, I love that you are drawing a direct connection from, okay, these are some of the most powerful people in our country. What about some of the least powerful? And I think that goes to young people and children. And you're right. I mean, I remember

you know, I like TikTok. It's fun. I'm probably between the three of us, the one who's posting the most TikTok. I don't be on there. I don't be on there. Yeah. I'd be watching my TikToks on Instagram. Yeah. You're like, I'll wait until it shows up as a real three weeks later. I'm like, okay, it's fine. You know, we all move at our own paces. Yeah. But I

remember kind of having a, oh, wow moment early on when I got into TikTok because the kind of social media you and I kind of came up with, you know, primarily Facebook and then like Twitter, you know, TikTok often is like, what's your home like?

That's what I remember thinking about. We're in your home. We're watching you with your partner. We're watching you go to Starbucks. What kind of kitchen does your family have? What does your bedroom look like? What's your backyard? And as a kid who grew up kind of living paycheck to paycheck with a single mom, I remember only in retrospect do I have an appreciation for what you're kind of talking about. Home was the backstage. Yep.

Home was a private space. It wasn't always paradise, I want to be clear. But there is something about when it comes to whether you're talking about mental health or just kind of going through it, dealing with your sexual agenda, whatever.

Having a backstage where you can figure out your stuff and then you go to school, you know what I mean? Then you enter the social realm, I think is really important. And whether that's, you know, I was thinking of like

school students having to do Zoom early in the pandemic. And maybe some students don't feel comfortable having their family home situation. I think it's helpful to think about this distinction of the backstage and the front stage and what are the costs when those lines are blurred. And then what I find can be helpful but also be harmful, I see the rise of mental health TikTok and mental health social media. And in some regard, it's like, oh, you can share

Your problems with others dealing with the same thing and we can come together. But other times it feels like there is this pressure to perform the hilarity of your mental health issues online for all to see instead of just maybe putting the phone down and getting some other kinds of help that you need.

I think it can be a really – I don't want to speak out of turn here, but I do think that sometimes the promise of mental health TikTok or the promise of social media to connect with folks going through the same thing isn't always fulfilled. And we end up stuck in these feedback loops where we're on a device, still sad, and not doing real tangible things in the real world to work on these things.

And I don't want to at all discredit anybody who is using these spaces for their mental health. But I think that can't be it. That's a really great point. You know, as someone who teaches and writes but also teaches like nonfiction workshops, right, and often that people want to write like memoir kind of material, I try to point people to thinking about like, okay, this is a potent story, a potent situation. Are we still in it though?

Like are we still literally in the situation? And I guess you're right. I mean, let's imagine if Senator John Fetterman was giving

like hourly updates from the Walter Reed Medical Center. And like, so here's how my therapy is. I mean, and we would go, whoa, that's ludicrous. Why would you do that? But that's essentially what a lot of us are doing. And listen, it's not just young people. I sometimes do this on Twitter. You know, like there are different ways that you're right. We're so confessional about everything. The work in progress is like, well, no, it's literally in progress. It's in progress. It's called work for a reason. And I think thinking of that, what are some things that

deserve to be a part of our backstage? What are some processes that deserve to just need to play out? And maybe if you have a lesson, you can share the lesson later. Yes. Share the lesson. And like for me, the lesson from Fetterman's story and your comments, it's like...

Everyone, preserve your backstage. Preserve your backstage self. Make space for you to take care of you and know that sometimes a lot of that work has to happen away from the public eye, away from social media, and with close friends, family, and loved ones. And when it comes to preserving your backstage, this is really important. No one is going to help you do it.

There you go. You have to do it. And this is the problem, particularly like social media. There's always going to be some people who applaud. You know what I mean? Like if you're willing to put yourself out there, there are always going to be people. So I think it's, and this is a real challenge, but it has to come down to you, maybe a mentor, like your core circle, which can only be two or three people. Only you are going to be able to create that boundary. You can't depend on the public. Imagine if John Fetterman was like, let's take a poll.

Exactly. Do you think I should take some time off? Like that's not the way, but that's how so many of us live. Exactly. Yeah. So for those of you who are hearing this and might be in crisis or know someone who is in crisis, there's a number you can call. It's 1-800-662-HELP.

1-800-662-4357. That is a national helpline for the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. At that number, they can refer you to services and talk to you about what you're dealing with.

If you're in crisis, seriously, the first thing to do is reach out and be open about what you're dealing with. Also, if any of you are in a position listening where you are a mentor or close loved one to young people, check on your young people. You know, this study that I cited earlier, it's found that rates of mental health problems have gone up with

with every survey of young people since 2011. It's an ongoing crisis. I might have mentioned this on a recent episode, and this might be the same survey from the CDC. It pointed to, I believe it was one in five, which is about, I think they said it was like 22% of young people who identify as LGBTQIA had attempted suicide in the last year, not just congenital.

considered but attempted. And so, yeah, I mean, we talk so often on Vibe Check about the many kind of pressures and systemic collapses weighing down on us, but it's always going to fall hardest on young people, right? Because they're the least equipped. So we also want to draw attention to the National Suicide and Crisis Line. And this is great. It's kind of like instead of 911, you just call 988.

Again, that's 988. I'm so grateful that we have these resources. We need more. We always need more. Yeah. It's a good start. Yeah. Okay. It's time for us to take a quick break, but stay tuned. We'll be right back to get even deeper into our feelings. Yes.

what happens when Zach leaves us, actually. This is the problem. You leave Saeed and Sam alone and we're like, and we're going deep. We gonna get into it. Welcome to the deep end with Saeed and Sam. We'll be right back.

This message is brought to you by McDonald's. Did you know only 7.3% of American fashion designers are Black? Well, McDonald's 2024 Change Leaders Program is ready to change the face of fashion. The innovative program awards a monetary grant to five emerging Black American designers and pairs each with an industry professional to help them elevate their brands.

I know specifically and distinctly how McDonald's can support and empower not just black Gen Z, but black people. My first job was McDonald's. I learned a lot there about customer service and how to relate to people. I still love that place and go there very often. Look out for the change of fashion designers and mentors.

at events like the BET Awards and the Essence Festival of Culture. And follow the journey of the 2024 McDonald's Change Leaders on their Instagram page, We Are Golden.

Here's an HIV pill dilemma for you. Picture the scene. There's a rooftop sunset with fairy lights and you're vibing with friends. You remember you've got to take your HIV pill. Important, yes, but the fun moment is gone. Did you know there's a long-acting treatment option available? So catch the sunset and keep the party going. Visit pillfreehiv.com today to learn more. Brought to you by Veve Healthcare.

All right, we are back. You're listening to the Sad Sisters Express, Sam and Saeed. And to stay in our feels for this next segment, we're going to talk about the diva of the moment with all the feels, the one and only SZA. She's just doing the thing real big. If you didn't know already, her sophomore album, SOS, which came out in December of 2022, is a song that she wrote for her band,

It has broken a bunch of records. I want to talk about that, celebrate that, and then talk about why her music is hitting real hard right now. So SZA's album S.O.S. has been at the number one spot on the Billboard Top 200 album chart for a 10th week in a row. For 10 weeks, she has had the top-selling album in the country. This is her record. The last time a woman did this was Adele's 25th.

It's kind of wild because it took Adele about a decade to get to those Adele levels. This is SZA's second album. Right. Like, in the greater scheme of things, she just got here. But it's working. It's really working. Yeah, and I know we've both been reading Danielle Smith's incredible profile of SZA for the New York Times Magazine. And she kind of talks about some other records as well, but...

But depending on whether you're looking at like R&B charts and da-da-da, the scale of SZA's success with SOS at this point, some of it is taking us to records that were last achieved by people like Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey. And I mean, we're talking early 90s. That is incredible for a sophomore album.

Well, and her first album, which I even love more than SOS, Control, CTRL, it has been on the charts, on the Billboard Hot 200 chart for 294 weeks and counting. Wow.

That means her first album still won't go away. It never left. It never left. And so when I think about what makes an artist like SZA resonate in this moment, for me, it's simple. And I want to talk more about it with you, Saeed. I think that the beauty of SZA is

is that she allows us to celebrate the feelings that we would usually be ashamed of. SZA lives in honoring feelings of anger and regret and sadness. And she lets us live in those fields and say, this breakup hurt me. I hate my ex.

I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to be loud about it. And I'm allowed to feel this way. The extent to which SZA allows us to feel our feels has been freeing for so many of us. And I think that's why it works. But I mean, you're an even bigger fan of hers than I am. Why is it working for you? Well,

I mean, gosh, there's so many reasons, but to what you were just saying, I mean, think about our conversation about depression and, and John Fenderman, right. Front stage backstage, something I've appreciated in her commentary and her interviews about this album is she's like, listen, all of these relationships, this is like from five or six, seven years ago. And so I like, right. That she's drawing a distinction between like the present and the past because

Because I think if you think of a song like Kill Bill, right? Like I might kill my ex. You know, she's like, let me make it very clear. This is not an emotional state I'm in right now. And I think that's so smart because one, just like we were saying, she's no longer in the story. It's no longer unfolding, right? It's not like she's like on the couch talking to her therapist between concert performances. And so like she's allowed herself to get to a different place, which means you can look back and go like, damn, I was great.

I said, what? I mean, one of the lyrics on F2F, I hate me enough for the two of us. Wow. And so because she's being, I think, candid about the distance, I think that allows me in more because I'm not scared. I'm not taking it a little, not even too seriously, but I'm like, oh, this is someone reflecting with self-awareness. Exactly. Well, and what I love about SZA and

the ability for her to write a song like Kill Bill and we all get it. It's actually growth in the way we talk about and think about Black music and Black lyrics. I remember 10, 15 years ago when I was starting to cover music in public radio,

there was this inability for a lot of critics and writers about black music to suspend their disbelief and understand that like this black rappers lyrics weren't actually about doing all those things. Right. Whereas as long as there have been white guys with guitars, it's,

They can say whatever in a song and everyone's like, it's just a lyric. You know, we never hold death metal against the people that make death metal, right? Didn't the state of California like just pass a law that like rap lyrics can't be held against an artist in a court of law? Yeah, and New York still tries to use lyrics to prosecute people, right? But there's a long history of...

of black artists not being given the creative license to make lyrics like the ones in Kill Bill that are meant to kind of be a joke, but also you get it. And so to see SZA make this song, and this song is like number two in the country right now, to see it work, I'm happy about that. I also, what I love about SZA and her lyrics, and you see this in Kill Bill, she's also poking fun at herself. Yeah.

while living in these dark feelings. There's this refrain in Kill Bill where in between talking about I want to kill my ex, I hate it, I will go to jail to not be alone. She refrains over and over again, I'm so mature. I'm so mature. I'm so mature. And you're like, I get it. She's laughing at this character version of herself. It's some next level song right there. Yeah, I'm so glad you draw attention to the humor of a song like Kill Bill, which is heartbreaking. I mean, the last...

beat of the song is her saying, I'd rather be in hell than be alone. So no matter how self-aware this persona is trying to convince us of they are, by the end it's like, ooh, no, you are not in a good place. But the humor, and to me, I think...

A song like Kill Bill in particular, I love so much because it's really in line with a central legacy of country music in terms of storytelling. Like you notice the song has a plot, like the tense changes. So it goes from I might to I just. Yeah.

So I'm burying him now. Which, again, is pretty funny. You kind of want to hear where is this? How far is this going to go? Like, is this someone just kind of ruminating and venting or are they actually committed to it? Right. But also it's the blues tradition, which goes back to the 1920s, 1930s. I'm thinking of singers like Bessie Smith with the empty bed blues. One of my favorite lyrics, my bed might get empty, make me feel awful mean and blue.

my springs are getting rusty, sleeping single like I do. That kind of, like blues had such a sense of, and Ma Rainey did this as well, you know, saying the quiet part loud. And I just think it's really great, literally a century later, to hear a young,

Black woman saying the quiet part loud, the messiness. And Kill Bill, it's working on every level, right? Not just like the themes of the song, I'm so mad at my ex, I want to do something horrible. But also in terms of the... And you know this language better than I do, right? I didn't study music. But I love in the verse of the song, in the verses when particularly early on, she's trying to...

perform wellness, so to speak. She's trying to perform like, I'm okay. I'm so happy for you. When she said, I'm still a fan, but I was kind of salty. To me, the notes and the lyrics, it's fast. It's casual, and it feels kind of tight. It feels like someone trying to smile through their teeth, which is what you do when you know. And then when we get to the chorus, suddenly the notes are bigger. There's more range. Is that accurate? Oh, it's so true. And you allude to a thing that I actually love

in SZA's songwriting and what my colleagues over at the Vulture Podcast, Switched On Pop, have talked about. Love those guys. Switched On Pop is a wonderful pop music podcast. Go check it out. They have an episode about SZA's style of songwriting, which gets to some of this. But what I love the most about the way SZA writes songs is

Her songs play out and her lyrical delivery plays out, not as if she were sitting at the piano to craft the pop hit, but it sounds like she was just writing in her journal, free associating, and then began to kind of sing the words as she wrote them. Yes. Like, think about the way she delivers that first verse. It's like... All these unexpected runs. Yeah.

It's like she's free associating. You hear her almost think out the lyrics in real time. It sounds like that, right? That is a very hard thing to do, especially when you think about some of the like biggest hit makers of our day. I think about Taylor Swift, no shade to her, but when Taylor Swift makes a hit, she's making a hit that is meant to like bury itself into your brain. And it sounds like a chorus to be belted from the rafters. SZA makes these songs that become hits that,

that sounds like she was just free writing. Yeah. That is hard to do. Yeah. And I love the songwriting comparison between Taylor Swift and SZA because I think they're both geniuses. They're both geniuses, obviously, yeah. And what I think, my theory is that the reason Taylor has like a military, perfectly enunciated precision to her lyrics is that it's an act of transference.

It's an act of relatability, right? So, you know, me, I'm the problem, it's me. It's designed to be relatable and easy for us to sing and mimic so that Taylor kind of creates this narrative and then we're able to pick it up, inherit it, and use it as catharsis, which is great. Yes, yes. What SZA is doing, because you're right, it does, and it's so tricky. Like a lot of people think they can do this free association and whatever, but it's like a free association tone with the precision of the lyrics.

of the fiercest rapper you've ever come across. You know what I mean? And so to me, it's like, it's not so easy to mimic. I'm scared to sing along with SZA songs. - It's like, am I allowed to? - And there it is. Because to me, it's like, if Taylor Swift is like, here's the lyrics, I'm handing them to you. Now this is your story. SZA's writing and her singing style never allow you to go, this is Saeed's story. - SZA is just asking you to watch. SZA is asking you to watch.

The catharsis is watching someone else. And I loved you said this about Rihanna several times, like the full power of the self, the full power of being at ease with herself. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, and then it's like, you think about-

even the song structure of the hits that she's making. So months before the album came out, she had a teaser single from the album, this song called Good Days, which I loved. Good Days is this song where the verses flow into the chorus and you don't know what's which. People have talked about this. She told Danielle Smith about this in the Times profile. She's like, yeah, my sense of song structure is weird.

I'm not doing traditional, usually, you know, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, vamp. Like, it's weird. And like, parts of these songs will fall into each other and you don't know where you are, but it's like, that's the point. The beauty of a great SZA song is that in the middle of it,

you feel like you are in the middle of her brain. Right. You're like swimming in her words and it's just great. I can't speak highly enough about just like the way she crafts her songs. You know, Kill Bill is probably the most radio friendly song on the album and it's still kind of weird as fuck. It's incredible. I love it. It's weird. I wish I was teaching a poetry workshop right now because I think it's like comedic irony, understatement. The fact that the climax of the song is, I did it all for love, you know? Yeah.

Yeah.

You can see her screaming as the cops are leading her away. I did it all for us. It's just kind of like, oh my gosh. It's so brilliant. And I think going with the kind of theme of this episode of front stage to backstage, she's found a way to craft the illusion. This is an illusion. It's not real. This is artifice that we are fully in the backstage with SZA, right? Because when you're in the backstage with someone, you're right, there isn't coherent structure. It is going to be messy and free association. And it's just...

I think it is liberating to kind of get to witness and celebrate someone do that because it is still very well done. And at the end of the day, it's like you can never underestimate the craft. I mean, gosh, she's so good. She's so good. And just sophomore album. Sophomore album. And it's funny. So in the profile of her for the times that Danielle Smith wrote, there's a line that

in which she's getting ready for the release and someone's like, are you worried about the sophomore slump? And she was like, I don't know what that is. I've actually never heard the term. And you're like, yes, ma'am. This profile is so good. It is called SZA's Ruination Brought Her Everything by my friend Danielle Smith, one of the best music

music writers to ever do it. We love her so much. Listeners, if you aren't onto this album, get into it and write us and tell us what you like about it, if you like it, and what you like. Also, please go check out that first album, Control. Baby, that one slaps. With that, I'm going to take one more quick break. When we come back, some recommendations to keep your vibe right.

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All right, my loves. Welcome back to, I'm going to call this episode, you know, the contradiction front stage, backstage, you know, going deep with scientists. I love it. I love it.

With Saeed and Sam and SZA, the triple S's. Triple S, baby. Know us. You know, every week we like to end the show with some recommendations that are helping us keep our vibe right. Zach has a recommendation that we're going to hear in a second. But Sam, let's start with you.

You know, we've been talking about music, and I had been meaning to mention it the last few weeks on the show. It's a cover of a Harry Styles song that I think is phenomenal. Come on, Shane. Y'all know I have thoughts about Harry Styles, and y'all know I think Beyonce should have won album of the year. That said, my recommendation this week is this really fun, funky, soulful cover of the Harry Styles hit, As It Was. This cover is by this band called Prep, P-R-E-P. This is some grown folks R&B, baby. Okay. Yeah.

You throw this on at your next get-together, you're going to impress your friends. You're going to impress your friends. It's an impressive song. Anywho. I'm into it. That's a good recommendation. As it was. My recommendation. Okay. All right. Well, my recommendation for the week, I think I have one more.

mentioned this like a few weeks ago but I've really been in like America Ferreira era I love her we really do she's really great like a legend the moment like she is a sitcom legend and so I finished Ugly Betty which I gotta tell you I felt like I was in the trenches y'all you finished it you finished it it's long right how many seasons it was a lot

Four seasons. And this is early 2000. So four seasons. So 26 episodes. Yeah, 21, 22 episodes. I've been through a lot. Been through a lot. But I decided to like, I was like, okay, let me try Superstore, the show she did from 2015 to 2021. I think it's like five seasons. And it's really...

great. I think you know why part of it's resonating, like literally at one point in the season they have a strike, there's conversations about unions. I think later in the show's run, I'm excited to see how they played out, but I think the pandemic and what it, you know, because basically it's the superstore is essentially like a Wal-Mart.

And so it's about the lives of the people who make this place work for the customers who take them for granted. And it's really interesting to me that in two different shows, America Ferrer, and I believe she's a producer for Superstore. She's very interested in working class people, class tensions, what it means to be the people who are taken for granted, even though you kind of make everything else around you work. I think that's a common thread for both shows. And it's just...

Funny as hell. The comedy is a little darker and a little more sinister, actually, than Ugly Betty. So it's pretty naughty. I like it. No, good. I love it. Well, and I also love that, like, with Superstore, with Abbott, with other shows, like, the sitcom is having a moment, I think, for a while. And this push for prestige TV and the rise of streaming, there was this idea that, like, the sitcom was an outdated mode of making television. Yeah.

Still works, still slaps. I love a good sitcom. Yeah. I really do. And I'm glad you brought up Abbott Elementary, which I obviously love. So if you like Abbott Elementary but want a show – and I also love shows that you can binge that just have – like they've completed their run and you're like, oh, great. I have five seasons to get through. I think that's wonderful in winter in particular. If you want like Abbott but like a little saltier, a little –

a little messier. You know what I mean? Because Abbott, it's still an elementary school. So there's, you know, limits to how far they're going to go. Definitely check out Superstore. It'll crack you up. Love it, love it, love it. Then I think Zach has a recommendation. Yeah, I'm intrigued. Because just because we're long distance doesn't mean we're going to deny y'all some good vibes, you know? So let's hear what Zach has to say. My vibe rec this week is...

is an Apple hack. And as some of you all know, I've become obsessed with like the culture of dupes, which I'm gonna do an episode on dupes soon. I'm doing my research, all this stuff. But I was at the Apple store recently with my boyfriend who was getting a new phone and we were looking at all the accessories and I was like, "Girl, these accessories are so expensive." And I keep forgetting how expensive Apple accessories are. And a woman at a store, I'm not gonna say what store 'cause I'm not trying to get anybody fired, but she said to us, "Listen, go on Amazon and just get the others."

And we did that. And my rec this week on Amazon, it's one of those MagSafe wallets. I don't know if y'all have seen these before, but they're the wallets that are on the back of your phone.

And I, you know, I've never been one to like want to put everything on my phone because I don't want to like lose my phone and lose my life. But what's amazing is like there's times when I'm running out of the house and I just need like my ID and maybe a credit card or maybe just my ID, but I don't want to bring my wallet or cash. And if you get these little MagSafe wallet things that attach, those are perfect for those moments. And

have felt like a freedom this week of not having a ton of things on me. Like I literally go for a walk and I just have my phone and my ID. So my vibe rec this week is you go on Amazon, get the MagSafe wallet. Just try it. It's like 10 bucks, I think 14 bucks. They're really wonderful. And it's not like not too, too wild of a number if you don't like it. So that's my rec.

Would I ever do that wallet that Zach is talking about? Because I am always scared about losing the wallet and the phone at the same time. But I think with these MagSafes, you can have a little thing that can track them too, right? Yeah, maybe. So that's cool. I think, yeah, my thing, I was hesitant. But then I realized...

It's far more likely I would like lose my wallet than I would lose my phone because I use my phone so much. Like it's just like, even when I'm home, I'm like, okay, go into the living room. I take my phone with me. So I feel like the distance I would be allowed to walk before I realized I don't have my phone with me. You know what I mean? I get that.

I might try it out. I might try it out. And then if it goes wrong, I'll just blame Zach. Although, because I'm the elder of this group, y'all do know I have that old man otter box on my iPhone. I know you do. It's like eight feet thick. It works. It's so heavy. I used to have an even bigger otter box with like a holster for my waist. Why do you need that? Are you going to war? Okay. It feels like that sometimes. All right. All right. Anywho, listeners, let us know what you're vibing to. Yeah.

Yeah. What are you feeling or not feeling this week? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com. Thank you, as always, for tuning in to this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend.

As always, huge thank you to our producer, Chantel Holder, engineer Brendan Burns, and Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design. Special thanks to our executive producers, Nora Ritchie at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda Management and Production. And last but not least, thanks to Jared O'Connell and Imelda Skender for all of their help.

We want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram and Twitter at theferocity, at Sam Sanders, and at Zach Staff. Use the hashtag vibecheckpod so we can see it. Also, follow us on TikTok at vibecheckpod. Stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Bye. Bye, everybody. Stitcher.

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