RE-AIR: Conversations: So Are They Cousins Or Not?! The Love of Achilles & Patroclus w/ Charlotte Gregory
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Oh hi, hello there, happy Pride Month! This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I'm your host, Liv, here in June, as always, with as much LGBTQIA content as I can find! You all know this by now, but one of my favorite things to do is share these stories from the ancient world that affirm that a broad spectrum of gender and sexuality existed in the ancient world. Just as broad a spectrum as exists now. It's almost like it's just...

human nature not to fit into binaries. Weird, I know. I also know that sometimes people criticize that I only do this during June, Pride Month, and I just want to say again that I totally understand this criticism. It is valid in theory, but I'm not doing it just to appease or be another rainbow username only for the month of June. It's just simply that there are a finite number of these stories around.

because it's Greek myth. And it's nice to just put them all together in a big celebratory month. It's just, it's fun, honestly, for all of us. So I do it this way. But

But if and when I ever hear from experts who want to share their knowledge when it comes to LGBTQIA concepts or characters, I am always happy to have these people on any time of the year. In this case, it just happens that I spoke to Charlotte Gregory, today's amazing guest, so close to June that I thought it was just all too fun to be able to feature everyone's favorite couple, Achilles and Patroclus, right at the beginning of Pride.

Plus, it meant that I could air this episode right after my episode on Plato's Symposium and the notion of soulmates, because that episode itself was inspired by this conversation. So Charlotte Gregory is doing her PhD in basically Achilles and Patroclus. How fucking cool is that?

Okay, specifically, she's doing her PhD in modern reception of Achilles and Patroclus, and honestly, I'm just as here for that. Needless to say, I leapt at the chance to have this conversation, and Charlotte and I had so much fun. We talked about Song of Achilles, of course, and 2004's Troy, because, you know, cousins, and Troy, Fall of a City, and just Achilles and Patroclus, and everything surrounding their relationship and all its varied interpretations. Okay.

If I know my listeners at all, you all are going to fucking love this episode. So let's just get right into it, shall we? Conversations. So are they cousins or not? The Love of Achilles and Patroclus with Charlotte Gregory.

Well, then let's talk about Achilles and Patroclus. So that's, I mean, my listeners are going to die for this episode. I don't think I've ever had one where I officially talked to a guest. Yeah, like no pressure, I guess. I realize I'm starting it off with that. But yeah, I mean, they are it, especially because you're talking about them or you study them in a more modern context. So I want to hear kind of generally everything. But like, how did you come to this is your PhD is them in this context. I love that.

So it sort of started, it was during the last year of my undergrad. I was not sure if I wanted to pursue classics, like academia. I was kind of tired of it all, especially exams and all that. And I thought maybe I would go into perhaps film and TV I was really interested in for a while.

And then I found this module taught by a lecturer. I was at the University of St. Andrews and he taught this module on classics in the modern world. And it covered so many from education system and Black Athena, post-colonial receptions, and then classics in film and TV. And I went, oh, I can merge my interest areas. And then during my master's, I got him as my supervisor and we brainstormed what I was wanting to do a dissertation on.

And we kept coming back to queer, queer and film and TV. And it kind of came from this analysis of masculinity in antiquity and masculine sexualities and

and then their receptions. And then for the PhD, it's kind of a continuation, but with a greater focus on Achilles and Patroclus, well, specifically Achilles as a case study across different mediums. So I'm interested in how medium impacts these receptions. And so Patroclus, the amount I talk about him varies depending on what film, book, video game I'm looking at.

That's so fun and just makes me think of Troy, the movie, because I feel like that's got to be like your big thing of like, well, you can't talk about Patrick Lassalle that much in that. Exactly. I've just writing my chapter on Troy. So it's film and then Troy's the main case study. So there's a lot more about Briseis.

in that but I've done so much analysis of Brad Pitt and his sex image it's um I'm literally at one point I'm talking about the Angelina Jolie Jennifer Aniston drama I'm like I'm sat next to someone who's doing uh Greek linguistics in the common room and um then there's me basically like a tabloid journalist I'm wondering how I've got to this stage I'm loving it but

Yeah, I feel like it's very, yeah, not the norm, maybe in terms of studying comics. Exactly, yeah. But it's fun. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I connect with that very well. Just I do the fun stuff too, or it's just like, you know, deeply non-academic, but just like talking about the fun parts or it's kind of nice to have that sort of separation that when you, that you get when you talk about reception, because you don't have to stick to this like

of rigidity you know that obviously exists in terms of ancient sources and and the study of them whereas reception you get to kind of play around with everything um especially with these characters exactly and it's fun because I don't really then have to deal with you know questions of accuracy or anything I'm more interested in if something's inaccurate so to speak or varying I get to kind of just be like okay but why why have they made these decisions and try and

sort of explore that which I think is fun and interesting rather than being so stuck in the ancient texts themselves I do enjoy the ancient texts but it's been a while since I've read them vigorously

Yeah, it's nice to have like a little of both. And yeah, I mean, I like the kind of combo and I like reading the ancient texts and then kind of get considering beyond them or especially when it comes to Achilles and Patroclus, like they are so interesting because people have such strong feelings.

feelings and ideas about them and like I'm sure I mean so one of the reasons I even have you is that I I forget kind of which happened first but basically at some point since we planned this all I've seen on your Twitter is just like constant like reception of Achilles and Patrick listen it's it's fascinating to see that and I'm also good friends um internet friends with um with Ben who runs the classical studies memes account and so obviously he gets a lot of that too

And it's so fascinating. So, I mean, you're studying the queerness specifically. So is that kind of like the way you wanted to come at it is sort of emphasizing the queerness or just sort of studying all of it? It's sort of looking at... So the queerness, I think, comes through the most in receptions of them. But I'm also interested in, so Troy, the...

explicitly trying to position him as this very hyper heterosexual figure is how they do it. And I find that also interests me. I'm just kind of generally interested in all kinds of masculinity and their various sexualities that they entail. But there's definitely the queer definitely comes through

the most I would say. So even with Troy, I talk about a homoerotic reading of Troy and how they're clearly trying to suppress this queer reading, but they cannot. It still creeps through, which is fun to sort of

analyze. Yeah, I noticed that in a rewatch of 300 recently too, which is from the same time period and they do the same thing where it's like, you know, it's the mid-2000s. I feel like I also, like I was a teenager and I just have such a grasp on what it was like back then and you can kind of see, you can just like, you know, know exactly why and how everything happened the way that it did, especially compared to now, which is sort of fascinating. But both of them are these like

super heterosexual, like absolutely no queerness. They're just getting rid of it entirely. And then, yeah, like you said, they can't actually fully get rid of it because the gaze is like there really heavily. It is. It's exactly, it comes down to the gaze. So part of my thesis, I'm looking at the idea of the male gaze. And one of the issues of films like Troy is they are these masculine film genres aimed predominantly at male audiences and

but they have the male body on display. And that's inherently kind of, it causes these problems for the audience because you have men looking at the male body as this, because Brad Pitt in Troy is definitely meant to be an object of desire. I mean, it's Brad Pitt. He was a world's sexiest man twice. He's only like four celebrities have ever had that title. He is, that's what he's known for.

And so when you have a male audience watching this, they have to then come up with these techniques to try and suppress sort of the queerness of men watching other men and their bodies. And so that's why you get Briseis, you get those, the first scene where he's naked in bed with two women, not one, two. That's how like, he's so heterosexual and manly.

And it plays into this image of him almost as like a rock star figure, like sleeping around. He's so good at what he does. I just, I love it. But it still creeps through. They've got him in the shortest skirt possible. And yes, and the scenes with Patroclus, it still creeps through.

Like when he introduces Odysseus to Patroclus and the way he does it is he holds Patroclus by the wrists. So both wrists in one hand and he holds a sword to his back and pushes him. So Patroclus has kind of presented to Odysseus with his chest out. And firstly, I was like, OK, well, you know, kind of kinky holding him by...

The wrist, the sword at the back is obviously phallic. And the way he's positioned made me really think of these paintings of St. Sebastian, where he's bound with his wrist behind and he's always got his chest out. And then that St. Sebastian thing carries through to the end when Achilles is killed by multiple arrows. And St. Sebastian is, what was it, a friend said to me, he's the patron saint of twinks, is how he described him. So it's pretty queer, I think.

I love these I've never you know I've never like it's been a long time since I've watched Troy unfortunately I also do want to like kind of I might mention this in the introduction too but like obviously there's unfortunately a lot of shit around Brad Pitt now he seems like he's kind of a super problematic piece of garbage um so I just want to like recognize that that I know that but also you know we can we can still talk about Troy yeah

Yeah, it's one of those things I've been wondering about whether to sort of discuss that in the thesis, because I'm talking about his star image a lot and what that brought to the role and how that influences people's perceptions of Achilles and his masculinity and sexuality.

So I've been a bit umming and ahhing over whether to add a thing or a disclaimer, because it does sound like I'm praising him nonstop in my thesis being like, you know, world's sexiest man. He had two most beautiful women. He's in all these major roles and all this sort of stuff. And I kind of want to be like, I'm not saying he's a good person. I don't, you know, there's a lot going on, but it's, yeah, I'm not sure if it bears relevance to my thesis because it is from...

2004 and five I'm really talking about well and yeah and I mean 2004 and five Brad Pitt is such a different person like obviously he's still kind of got everything around him so and we won't you know I don't want to like dwell on that I just want to make sure I said it and didn't pretend like I didn't know um but like 2004 2005 Brad Pitt was like a time in itself like

I grew up watching Friends all of the time. And for the longest time, my favorite episode to rewatch is when he is on. It's the best episode. It's just like between him and Jennifer Aniston and then the Angelina Jolie of it all, which had to have been happening around that time. It is. So at the time that Troy came out, that was in May 2004. And that is when the rumors started about him and Angelina.

So it's very relevant to my sort of analysis of Achilles' masculinity and sexuality because it kind of plays into this whole him as this playboy figure, you know, seducing women, getting all these beautiful women. And that really then people are going to be, with their minds, going into them, watch Brad Pitt play Achilles. And they're going to have this in the back of their mind because I don't think you can watch him in Troy and not think that's Brad Pitt. You don't watch and go, Achilles, you think that's Brad Pitt. Right.

Yeah, I mean, it was like the height of his career and for him to play that role. Yeah. To bring it back to the Patrick list, because I've never registered how he's presented to Odysseus. That's fascinating. I need to rewatch this, not least because I love Odysseus and Sean Bean as Odysseus, I should say. I like to interchange the two. They're basically the same person. Yeah.

But yeah, the Patrick list of it all is also so interesting because of how they frame him. So like, I know there, there are arguments to be made that technically Patrick list can be seen as Achilles, his cousin in the mythology. I don't think that takes away from the fact that they were in a relationship. Like I, you know, it's Greek mythology. Everyone's related, but,

Persephone's uncle or Hades is Persephone's uncle on both sides is the thing I like to remind everyone. I didn't realize it was that bad. Yep. Like literally he's their uncle, mother and father. Great times. But so, you know, it doesn't matter that they were cousins, but in Troy, yeah.

the cousin is like emphasized so much and i've always taken that as that really strong like we're not gay he's my cousin he's also like considerably younger he's very like yeah that whole vibe and then positioning brad bit the two women thing i've never thought of it in that way of like just being like we're starting out with a bang this man is straight you guys

Exactly. Because it is the first time we see him. And then, yeah, Patroclus is his younger cousin. And again, like you said, and there's lots of people when I posted about, you know, were they cousins or not on Twitter, people very quick to say, does it even matter? And I'm like, no, I'm not saying it actually mattered for ancient people. But I'm saying that in Troy, it's not actually...

quite right and it now means that a lot of people now think that's what their relationship was like I was at dinner with friends last night and I mentioned I was going to do this podcast and talk about their relationship and one person immediately went oh well they were cousins and I was like oh my god it's happening

So I had to then kind of explain it varies according to the different genealogies, but it's only in Hesiod's Theogony that we have this, like, the genealogy has them as first cousins, usually they're sort of distant, which again, though, doesn't actually matter for an ancient, you know, Zeus and Hera. Like, no one really cared back then. But it's used in, it's clearly appealing to, like, modern tastes and sensibilities to be like, this is another preventative measure to sort of add this

barrier between them and a homoerotic reading and yeah and then the multiple women the younger having him younger as well is really interesting because in all mythological sort he's older he's the older of the two it's explicitly stated in the Iliad and later sources which then causes a whole load of issues for later Greek writers which I don't know whether to get into that now or

I mean, I've not mentioned that enough on the show because I don't know enough about it. Like I know basically that the great like argument that that a lot of people, a lot of people who know with deep knowledge of of ancient sources will say anytime the Internet starts debating about whether or not they were lovers is like, you know, the ancient Greeks didn't care whether whether they were lovers or not. They only cared who was the top and who was the bottom. And like that was their great debate.

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And I managed to keep what I was going to say, which so rarely happens when I have these issues. But yeah, it's so interesting too because that kind of comes down. It comes back to like one of my favorite things to talk about when it comes to the

the sort of the way everything changed over so many generations, like because I think, you know, people on the outside tend to forget just how many centuries are involved when it comes to talking about ancient Greece. And this is a great example of it because their relationship is this like Homeric tradition. So, you know, it's the like oldest sources that we have. It's this like very old tradition of oral storytelling. And then

It's these later people, I imagine probably in Athens because they almost always were, like trying to understand this Erastes-Romenos relationship. But like it didn't probably, it didn't apply in the Homeric tradition in which this was written. And so it's like they can't wrap their heads around who was who because there wasn't a who was who back then.

Exactly. So the Erastus-Romenes-Erominus dynamic, it's kind of traced back to sort of the 7th century BCE. To Crete, I think, is where they think it originated. But Homer is putting pen to paper, so to speak, in sort of the 8th century. It's, yeah, there's probably about a 50 to 100 year sort of difference between

And it just, so yeah, it just didn't exist in Homer's time. So there is completely beyond their understanding of,

yeah and then it's probably like just trying to wrap their heads around it but it's like it's just yeah it's so interesting I didn't know it came from Crete too or that it was that old that's fascinating too because I was kind of I mean I guess I associate it with the whole of the Greek world but I always think about it in terms of Athens because you know we that's what most of our sources are from and everything but yeah that's that's interesting but um it's the thing though with Homer is the way he talks about their relationship it's

It's been sort of viewed as fitting in with this epic tradition that already existed, especially in Middle Eastern texts. So this very intense male friendship we find in like the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance, or even the Book of Samuel in the Old Testament, the relationship between David and Jonathan.

is that very intense male friendship. And that's kind of, people have said that's perhaps more an applicable comparison than the pederastic relationships we have later. Yeah. Yeah. I'm only familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh, but it does, they absolutely fit that kind of thing where it's like, I think now we can kind of see it as like, yeah, they were super close. And like, I mean, whether they were officially lovers or whatever, like they were probably having sex regardless. They were just like, you know, because it just,

I mean, it seems to me that they certainly were in the Iliad, but I know it's not explicit. But it comes back to the way we have to understand these things now too, right? Like I have this new kind of theory only in my head that I have not even looked into. I'm sure it's talked about a lot, but I just love the idea that like there were probably a lot of women that were having sex with each other, but like nobody saw it as sex because sex in the ancient Greek world was penetrative. And so it's like,

they just didn't care probably. And they just didn't think about whether women were fucking all the time. And I just like to imagine that like women have this kind of extra level of freedom with each other because it just wasn't seen as anything. So there is some, I can't remember the exact term, but there was, so remember we mentioned the whole like active passive, like, you know, who's topping who basically and how that was important. There's a term for women who took on the penetrative role. And it was like,

triabes or something like that I've only got one year of beginners Greek and this is obviously a more obscure term but there were terms for women being the penetrator in the dominant role which indicates this obviously happened but because of the sources we get being predominantly male they're not really interested in women and they had that whole idea of the male male relationship being this pure honourable thing

Yeah. Yeah, because it was like a tradition, the male-male relationship. It was like, this is a thing that you did. And then you got older. When you were young, you had an older man. And then when you got older, you took on a younger man. It's just like an actual thing that was sort of practiced. It's dark and fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, it's by our standards horrifying, but it was just a part of their...

sort of elite culture it part of the coming of age was it was not always sexual as well it was this but it was that idea of a mentorship like a boy being put with an older mentor and then that relationship would be a very good social connection for later on in life and you would after the relationship as um in its pederastic form ended you would still have that very close political connection

So there's a lot of political and military sort of aspects to it as well.

That's interesting because even the way you phrased it, it sounds so much like what they try to emphasize in Troy when it comes to those two, just without the fact that it did often have a sexual connotation because like, like the way it's presented could very well be seen as pederasty without the sex. Like, cause Brad Pitt is clearly older. He's meant, I'm not even going to call him Achilles. This is exactly what you're talking about is the way that he is like, exactly. Yeah. He's Brad Pitt. Um,

like he's clearly older he's this mentor he he has all this like this type of relationship with patrick list but then they are so explicitly like no but we're not having sex we're very related in the like modern sensibilities of being related yeah no exactly right it's that um you have that teacher student relationship but in pederastic terms and especially considering the massive age difference between them

it does still very much work. So they were trying to obviously be like, no, he's like, you know, he's a father figure. He's teaching him, you know, it's like, well, okay. But that by ancient standards, that still works. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. So, okay. As much as I feel like I could talk about Troy forever because I was like 16 when it came out and it was so formative in my love of ancient Greece.

like we'll talk about them you know beyond this but so my other big frame of reference we've already mentioned it is the Song of Achilles like I have read that I do love it and I take your point about everything too I've never like I read it so long ago before I kind of had the knowledge of history that I do now and so it's it is interesting to see like it does kind of

gloss over all the more you know the issues surrounding all of that kind of tradition like what other kind of pieces of reception are you finding with them and like how are they treated

So for me specifically, I'm looking at the 21st century and popular culture. So each of my chapters in my thesis is a different medium. So I have film, which is Troy, TV, which is the TV show Troy, Fall of a City, which I could talk about for hours. I have so many thoughts on that.

The novel, so Song of Achilles. I've not reread it recently. It's been a few years, but I'm about to reread it because this is going to be my next chapter. And then I'm going to do video games. So Hades.

And the relationship. Because I'm very interested in the fan aspects. So not. And same with Song of Achilles. It's like it's not just these works themselves. But I'm also then going to look at fan art. And fanfic where applicable. And I'm also trying to incorporate memes into it. So like the memes that exist about Troy. And there are a lot. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's how I kind of I think got to know you. And Ben was my call for memes. Begging people to send me memes.

Send me memes. I can only imagine how many you would have gotten like once you had been kind of working with you on that. I was honestly, I was just in the pub after I run a seminar series and I was just in the pub afterwards after doing this. And I was, you know, I've not, I've only got maybe if not even 200 followers. And at that point I didn't even have a hundred and I'm just like, I had notifications on my phone for Twitter because I didn't have many people responding. So it didn't matter.

And I'm suddenly noticing my phone is blowing up. And I'm like, what is going on? And I look and I saw it was because he had replied and people were absolutely going wild and really engaging. And I was like, oh, this is a lot more than I had hoped for. Yeah, I mean, his audience is really active broadly. But when it comes to that couple, I can only imagine...

Because the memes are so good, especially about Troy. And one thing I'm interested in is, because unfortunately with memes, you can't pinpoint when they originated and their context necessarily, unless it's one that Ben has just made recently. And then we can look at and be like, oh, okay, yeah, context, I know now. But a lot of these, I'm like, especially mocking the cousins dynamic in Troy or that it's not, you know, two and a half stars, not gay enough.

I'm interested in the, so the memes, how much of it is sort of more general and how much of it is influenced by people who have then read Song of Achilles and now are going back to Troy and getting outraged. Because again, Troy was how most people got their knowledge of Achilles and Patroclus' relationship. And then Song of Achilles came along, which was another kind of simple sort of reception. So instead of just being their cousins, no homo, to...

They're lovers and they are boyfriends and they love each other. And it's very clear cut as well. And we kind of move from one to the other. Yeah, I can see how much. I mean, just from my position where I'm at, like the way Song of Achilles influences my listeners broadly and even me, like I am...

I do have my own like deep obsessions with the ancient sources. So I always try to like talk about reception, but then also talk about it in relation to what we know of from the ancient world. But yeah, I mean the, the way that my listeners are constantly seeking Achilles and Patroclus like content and, and content that is so specific to their relationship is,

It's why I know that they're going to love this episode and it's why I'm going to air it during Pride. And it's like, you know, all these different things, like they are such a kind of... It's almost like, yeah, the sort of fandom around them as a couple is, I would say, considerably more interesting than them in the ancient texts. Yeah, because the ancient texts...

I do find them really interesting, but if you want to find evidence for their relationship in Homer, it's not, you're not going to be satisfied if you've come from Song of Achilles. So in the Iliad, it is not, I think you can interpret them as lovers, but I know people who very strongly disagree with that interpretation, which I think is fair enough. It's not clear cut. So,

So then while I say they were never cousins in the Iliad, they were also never explicitly lovers. It was a haiteros, again, sorry for my butchering of ancient Greek, which is a companion or comrade in like a military sense.

that's how they're described or there's another word used which means like attendance or comrade again meaning lower rank usually to describe Patroclus so and but there is stuff you can read so there's actually a tangent um one of my bits that I like is there's um I think it's book nine Phoenix tells this story of Meliaga I think that's how you say that again Greek is not my forte um

And it's basically he is identifying Achilles with this great legendary mythological figure of Meliaga. And the whole story is that Meliaga withdrew from battle and they everyone needed him to return to battle, which is obviously very much what Achilles is doing. And then Meliaga's wife comes to him crying and begs him, please come back to battle, go back to fighting. And he does.

And that's going to be really echoed later when Patroclus crying goes to Achilles and beseeches him to return to battle. So you clearly have these moments where like Patroclus is fulfilling or sort of is portrayed as this wifely figure. Also just the general stuff where the ambassadors come to Achilles' tent and

It's kind of the equivalent of when someone comes over and the man would go to the wife and be like, oh, come on, let's put the kettle on. We've got guests on. And effectively, that's what Achilles does with Patroclus. And he has him pouring the wine and providing the food, which is what a wife would have done. So you can definitely read it that way. And then the way Achilles reacts to Patroclus' death is exactly the

The way he mourns Patroclus' death is he's tearing at his hair, he's covering himself in ash, he's beating his breast. It's exactly how a woman was expected to mourn. Yeah, I love the really specific, like it is such kind of clear evidence while being not clear. I didn't know the connection to that Melieger story though. That's interesting. And like, I was just thinking about that name in relation to Atalanta, but I think that there are

too and I was trying to kind of I think it might be the Atalanta one I'm not my Greek mythology is um a bit shabby because I've been so focused on reception I haven't looked so much at mythology when it's not explicitly engaging with something I'm looking at well it's funny because this is in relation to Jennifer Saint's new novel Atalanta uh which is so it's like I was thinking about a relation to reception but I do think they're two different

men of the same name, which of course happens. But I think that that is the case in this one, if I recall. But regardless, I love that connection. I didn't realize that there was that kind of like explicit to an extent, you know, idea of like him actually playing this role that has earlier been

played by a wife. That's great. And the, yeah, the put the kettle on idea. Like he does, he, they are very domestic together. Like they are very, yeah, they're very like comfortable and just like their relationship is so interesting because yeah, like you said, it's not explicit. Like you cannot read the Iliad and find the,

reference to them definitely being in any kind of romantic relationship. But at the same time, you can read all of these bits and pieces. And then, of course, yes, with the death of Patroclus, where he really does take on this pretty explicit feminine role in terms of how you handle the death of your...

husband or loved one like that is really fascinating. But yeah, so like all these different bits and pieces that when you put them all together and you kind of want to see that romance, like they're there, but then you can also put them all together and like explicitly be like, but they're still not romantic.

Yeah, you can still then pull the whole, well, it's not explicitly stated. I'm not convinced. But I mean, again, with the way he mourns Patroclus, there's a bit, I think, where he cradles Patroclus' head. And that exact action is repeated by Andromache with Hector. She's cradling the head in a similar way. It is, I personally am convinced that there is...

some it's more than just friendship but again perhaps that's my modern sensibility because for us it's very difficult to understand this idea of such an intense male platonic not in the play sense but you know non-sexual non-romantic relationship it just doesn't we can't compute but

Then, okay, so another tangent. There's a really interesting text called Achilles in Vietnam. And it's about, it's by Jonathan Shea, I think. And he talks about PTSD in soldiers from the Vietnam War. And he's sort of pushing for kind of maybe a classical, I might be butchering this entirely, kind of classical approach to mourning, this public mourning and how he thinks that would be very good, healthy for these soldiers.

With that and these other texts that look at Vietnam war vets, the way that they experience male friendship and comradeship is so intense. I read interviews from my masters from Vietnam war vets.

And they talk about how if something had happened to one of their friends, they would drop everything. Their wife, their kids drop it and they would go help this friend because and it was not sexual, not romantic. But it was this intensity that no one who hadn't experienced it would ever understand. So we do have these kind of more sort of modern relationships like that.

So it does exist, but for the majority of us who have never experienced that, we cannot understand that kind of friendship. So I think myself included, and because I loved Song of Achilles so much, read it when I was 17, and it definitely...

influences my and I think others' responses to the ancient texts themselves. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so hard. We can't like anyone kind of looking back on this stuff, like it's basically impossible to separate yourself completely. Like, you know, you can do your best and talk around it kind of like we are. But yeah, I mean, we still exist in our current world. And so I like to kind of phrase it like, you know, we're

what we would now call a relationship, a gay relationship or, or like, you know, when I talked to a lot about trans people in, in Greek myth and it's like, you know, we can't say that they were trans back then, but we, the type of person and their experiences we would now refer to as trans. And so, you know, like there's, there's all these different ways and it, it does add, I think so much to look at them in all, like in whatever kind of,

you know, like holistic kind of way that you can of sort of acknowledging all these different sort of possibilities, like what you're saying with the PTSD of it all, while also just being like, yeah, but you know, I see them as gay. Yeah, honestly, I completely agree. I don't like how sometimes in academia, you're meant to have this distance and take on this very objective voice. And I just think it's not possible to,

Like your experiences are going to completely shape how you approach and understand the sources. Yeah. And I think it's, I think that's, what's interesting. That's why I like doing reception because it, it adds something new to the ancient material. It becomes this two way dialogue and relationship.

where the ancient source obviously influences the later reception, but then you look back at the original source and you are influenced by the modern work. It's the same with the World War poems, where it's, it is sweet to die for one's country or something is one of those famous quotes. And that was a direct quote from, I want to say Ovid, but I probably got that wrong. And obviously at the time that would have been

read unironically but now after this world war one poem where it is definitely ironic and making fun of this idea and pointing out that it is not true and it's horrible you then can't help but look at the ancient poem now and think oh maybe maybe the original poet was actually being ironic maybe this was we took it at face value but maybe that's not actually the case

And I think that happens then with like Achilles and Patroclus, we can look at it and think differently about their relationship, which yeah, I think is very interesting. I also think what, particularly when it comes to relationships like these and, and the same applies for, like I was mentioning like trans characters as well. Like it's also important to look at it from our modern lens and like use it as a kind of reminder to people, like,

that, you know, loving relationships between men can and did exist in the ancient world, whether or not it's explicit or whether or not they've been interpreted that way in the, like, no, 2700 years since. Like, it's helpful, I think, for...

for modern people to understand that like so many of these things are not new and not fresh and like you know it's not like something that cropped up in the last however long it's like it's just we we see these things differently um but what you're saying too about like the the like you know whether ancient sources were being ironic or not like i think about that a lot

In relationship to kind of any of the sources, like, because we do so often have to go on face value. And I think a lot in return when it comes to Euripides, because I love him and like, I just always want to see the best in him, but I'm currently writing a series on arrest, the arrestees. And like, there's all these moments. Yes. Such a good play. It's wild. And there's all these moments where like, if you read it at face value, like Euripides is like, he's really shitting on women.

kind of in explicit words, but if you kind of really look at sort of what's going on and him as a whole, you can read the irony that is in there. And, but it's like, you can't, you know, be certain either way. And you kind of have to sort of make these guesses based on the rest of the writing and sort of what was going on and who knows. And like, it's all up for interpretation. We'll never know for certain anything about the ancient world. And that's what makes it so fun. Yeah.

Exactly. I kind of like that we'll never know for sure. So it's up to us to make these interpretations. As long as we're aware that, you know, what we say isn't gospel truth, then I think it's fine. It's enjoyable. But when you mentioned the Oresteia, that really made me think of another point of comparison for Achilles and Patroclus, which is the relationship between Orestes and

Pilates. How do you say it? I say Pilates, but it's probably Pilates or it could be either one. Yeah, it's the Canadian V English. Exactly. But so a lot of analysis of Achilles and Patroclus' relationship has been put not only into this, the context of the epic friendship, like Gilgamesh and the Bible, but also what

greek mythology more generally has these intense male friendships like oreses and pylades so that's like another sort of context as well um where you could argue that achilles and patroclus and the iliad are just sort of within this trope of mythology so i guess that's another point against perhaps a queer reading but also we're now looking at oreses and pylades and it's very much being reclaimed

by queer folk like the whole translation where it's like it's rotten work not for me not if it's you that's spoken to a lot of the LGBT community so again it kind of works both ways yeah yeah it's just using that example too I'm trying to think of like other other close male friendships in Greek myth like Heracles has a couple for sure and then there are of course like a number of

more explicit like romantic relationship between gods and mortals but they always end in death but like I think Heracles and and like Hylus is one though it ends in death and then he has his other you know quote-unquote good good friend as academics like to say um and then yeah and then Orestes and Pilates but I feel like there's not a ton otherwise there are kind of these like really specific ones that really stand out

So there's Daemon and Pythias is another, which is like meant to illustrate like the benefits of a Pythagorean approach to life. So it's the whole being willing to sort of face danger and death for each other is the idea. And then there's this like historical couple that's also been sort of cited like Harmonious and Aristogaton, I think. There's like some other precursors.

And then later we have, so this is obviously more of a reception of the Iliad versus a comparative myth, but the Nisus and Euryalus relationship in the Aeneid. And I am obsessed. I literally, I have a tattoo of the statue of them from the Louvre. And that's very much, I would argue, meant to replicate the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. And I think,

More so in the Aeneid, it's quite clearly, in my mind, a romantic relationship, but it uses a lot of the same sort of wording that we get from the Iliad. So the idea of them being dear companions, most beloved companion is how Patroclus is described here.

in the Iliad. And then you get similar sort of wording in the Aeneid. They were most beloved to each other, most dear to each other. And one's older, one's younger, which kind of has that pederastic element, which was discussed so much in ancient responses to the Iliad. I was just going to bring them up because I remember you mentioned it when we were first talking about chatting. Because like

I notoriously don't care for Roman sources all of that much, particularly Aeneid, except as fan fiction. I like it as fan fiction. I like to entertain it and look at it as... Okay, I'm going to talk around everything I just said. I do enjoy... I love Ovid. I love Ovid, Metamorphoses and Heroides specifically, but Ovid broadly. And I do like

The Aeneid for very specific reasons in that it is interesting to look at, like I said, kind of as fan fiction, but also I like because so little in terms of Greek mythology explicitly can be seen as having been like

written with an explicit intention in mind like there's so little of that there's the tragedy for sure but then there's like all these other elements about why they were writing tragedy that it doesn't totally fit in the same way so what i like about ovid and the aeneid is looking at it as something that was written for a purpose like we would write things now like writing down a story writing down a novel an epic poem versus like oral storytelling that eventually gets put

for us to keep today. And I do like it. Like I read through it and I was just like, wow, yeah, like the level of fan fiction. And I know there's a lot of debate about that, but it is interesting to read as fan fiction. But that was all to very not eloquently say, I do not know much about the Aeneid beyond. I did episodes on it ages ago now. It was at the beginning of the pandemic. I started it before

the pandemic and then immediately realized what a horrible mistake it was when we all went into lockdown and like the world was considerably more depressing and I was like trying to slog through Aeneas because I just think Aeneas

Someone described him, I think, in an episode with me as like a blank slate. And I think that's incredibly true. Like he just kind of takes on whatever kind of heroic moment is being imitated at any given time, almost from the Iliad and the Odyssey. And anyway, that's all to say, I would love to hear any of your thoughts about the Aeneid, but also specifically about Nyssa and Euryalus because they are interesting. So, yeah.

I think what you're saying is really interesting. I kind of do agree with the whole fan cast. I love the Aeneid, and my hot take is it's my favourite of the ancient epics, like the classical ones. I literally have it tattooed, the opening line, Arm of Romquicano. So I love it. But I think it also holds a special place. It's the kind of text I read at school that made me want to move beyond GCSEs, which is when you're like exams when you're 15, 16. It made me want to go beyond and continue doing classics.

So it has a very special place in my heart and I think it's very enjoyable, but it is absolutely, I like that description of Aeneas as a blank slate. Like, I think that's absolutely right. I just really enjoy, I think the other characters are what I enjoy in the Aeneid.

And especially Nisus and Uriah Arliss. I just, I love the way their relationships portrayed. It's so playful early on. There's this, at Ankaisi's funeral games, there's a whole foot race scene where Nisus, I believe is the older, Uriah Arliss is the younger. And Nisus is winning the foot race.

But he falls. And then there's a guy in second place. And then there's Uriah Arliss in third. So Nisus falls and he's like, oh, well, I've lost. So he then trips up the guy who's in second place so that Uriah Arliss can then win. And then there's like a whole thing after the race where the guy who should have won after Nisus is like, hang on, they cheated. Like, that's not fair. So Nisus has to come along and be like, no, no, no, you all get a prize now.

um stuff like that and then their death I find um quite heartbreaking because it's just these uh Uriana is clearly this young kind of immature they've I mean they've just committed some absolute atrocities on a um

enemy camp nearby but it's the fact Uriolus he's weighed down by all the armor and spoils he's wearing and it catches in the moonlight so that the enemy then see them and spot where they are so they can chase and then they have to run through the woods to escape and Nisus is running ahead he's running ahead he's looking behind it's all good and then he gets into a clearing after a while and he stops he can breathe looks

Uriah is nowhere to be seen. So immediately he's like, oh shit, goes running back and he finds Uriah because he'd been wearing all these spoils and armor being this young, foolish person.

he has been caught by the enemy. And so Nyssa arrives, he tries to, you know, fight off some of them, but he's too late. Uriah is killed in front of him. And then he goes on a bit of a murder rampage, trying to kill other people. And eventually he is killed himself. And it's described how he falls on top of Uriah's body. And that's what the statue in the Louvre is of. And so that's what I have tattooed. Cause I thought it was just a beautiful, very sad scene. Yeah.

And yeah, and then the line Virgil writes, which is, if my words have any power, memory shall never erase, time shall never erase you from memory, which I think is a really beautiful quote.

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But moving back to the actual text, it is just a beautiful scene. I think it is absolutely gorgeous. And it really struck me. And it's probably worth adding the context. I think the reason why that and Song of Achilles were such formative texts for me is it was a time when I was coming to terms with my own sexuality. So to see, it is that seeing something of yourself, this historic element to it, it gets you.

Yeah. And that's I mean, that's why I always make a point of talking about these relationships when they exist in mythology. And like I was saying earlier, like, you know, as much as these are sort of modern interpretations based on ancient things, like I think it's important to use modern words to to like to call Achilles and Patroclus gay and like, you know, to to explain the context around where that.

where that is coming from in terms of what we do and do not know from the ancient world, but to still say it and, and talk about these relationships for, for what we can like pretty clearly say that they are regardless of, you know, what, what the ancient sources did and did not tell us. Because yeah, I think like it, it is really beneficial to people who are figuring out their own sexualities, figuring out themselves broadly and like wanting to see,

That both in like the world around them generally, but also in the ancient world is so it's such a different thing because it is so like based in kind of how, especially in the West, like how we see ourselves as humans is so directly tied to ancient Greece and Rome and and so often has these like.

more problematic connotations that people want to emphasize this like they were the smartest they were the most creative they invented everything they were super straight in a lot of like these interpretations whereas seeing sort of the truth about it both the the problematic stuff and things like they were not super straight but

They were not, you know, and then you can go too far into the other side, which you were saying earlier, this idea that they were like really accepting. And it's like, that's not true either. But they did at least recognize that like people could love each

uh and did love people of the same sex you know yeah i think my impulse with achilles and patroclus is if i had to put any label to that modern label to them it would be bisexual or pansexual dependent because i know people have different definitions um but because they do have relationships with women in the ancient sources but also i would say especially the later so

As I've said in Iliad, you can definitely read it that way. But there's later sources where it is very explicit, like Aeschylus' Myrmidons. We only have fragments of this play, but there's a passage or fragment, it's a couple lines, where Achilles is saying to the corpse of Patroclus, you've shown no reverence for the holiness of your thighs, which for us, we're like,

But it was so clearly a reference to intercruel sex, which I don't know if I need to maybe describe that for your listeners. So as mentioned, there were very strict social rules for pederastic relationships. And because it was part of this sort of coming of age social ritual,

it's these young boys the erominus would later become the ruling elite um of whichever greek city state they're in and so if they were to have been penetrated that would be problematic because then that would put them on the level of like prostitutes and slaves and so they couldn't have that so they had to kind of come up with these alternative forms of sex that would be so would be acceptable

And one of them was intercruel, which is where the Orestes would, he would fuck the boy's thighs.

So intercurral between the thighs. And then the boy was not meant to show a great deal of pleasure. He was not meant to take too much, to enjoy it too much, because that would again be, he's enjoying the passive feminine role, which again, it's not, not great for the future, you know, politicians and leaders. So this comment about, you know, the holiness of Patroclus' thighs is very clearly,

referencing that and then it means that in Aeschylus's mind Achilles was the Erastes the older dominant one and Patroclus was the Arominus the passive partner I did not know that that is fascinating and wild and the Greeks were so weird like so weird like just bending over backwards to keep these like

just nonsensical things in check oh that's amazing I did not know that line from the myrmidons either I love fragmentary text and like the weird things that we do and do not know from them I'm just still taking that in that's wonderful

It's great. And then there's Plato's Symposium. He has the Speaker Phaedrus then say that Aeschylus was wrong in saying this and that clearly Patroclus was the Erastus because he was older and wiser.

and Achilles was more beautiful and younger so we see this direct engagement with older texts and disagreements although Aeschylus is writing a lot like 5th century and Plato's in the 4th so it's about maybe up to 100 years between them but it's interesting and then we have people like Xenophon who are like absolutely not that was not a pederastic relationship at all you were all wrong

I didn't know Xenophon felt that strongly about that. That's interesting, too. Like, I love the idea. I mean, these are the things I love about ancient sources broadly. But yeah, like looking at like their own reception of their own texts, because we have this like enormous timeframe to work with. And we get things like that. We're like, yeah, Aeschylus is writing in like...

yeah, you know, fifth century. And then Plato comes around later and he's got his own ideas. And then Xenophon's around the same time and he's got his own ideas. And like, everyone's just got all these different things to say. And we kind of just have to like figure it all out. And then of course they're all talking about a text that's like two to three, maybe 400 years older than Aeschylus even. And then he's one of our older sources. And it's just like, God, there's so many things happening and it's fascinating. And then, I mean, you know,

toss in something like the Aeneid, which is so directly working off of Homeric texts, but is so much later and in a whole other world. And like, I mean, I like the ancient sources, if that's not clear, like as if it's not my entire life. Yeah, I love it. Because also all of these ancient sources, they're all working for their own agenda as well. So like I read somewhere that Aeschylus in tragedy, it's that tragic Eros,

that tragic love. And so that's perhaps why he goes down this perhaps more explicit route because it fits the genre and then Plato, well, he's doing his own thing, symposium. That would be a whole podcast, I think series, um,

And then you have later this guy, Iskenes. Again, I've probably butchered that. And he uses them, Achilles and Patroclus, as an example of good homosexual relationship, following the societal rules. It's pure. It's good love. And because he's using it as...

an example of good love versus this political rival of his, Demarcus, who he's being like, the way you conduct yourself is inappropriate. You are taking on this passive role. You're being penetrated. That's inappropriate. You should not be in public life versus these great...

you know, ideals of homosexual love. So it really varies not only through time, but also what agenda they have with their writing. And again, that carries through, I mean, to today as well. Yeah. And I mean, and yeah, it makes me think. So I was also recently covering Aristophanes' Thesmophoria Dussai and

And he's got all these, like, he's got two different characters in there who are both, you know, I think we could term them gay or, and I also did want to mention when you said this earlier too, but you're quite right. Like, obviously Achilles and Patroclus would be termed more like bisexual or pansexual, not least because of all the enslaved women that are involved. But yeah, like Aristophanes has these characters who are both like the,

they're both clearly in relationships with men or, you know, have had relationships with men, but they are both being sort of made fun of in this play because they have taken on the passive role. They're basically women. He calls them like they dress like women, all these different things like,

it really does emphasize the way that like for all the Greeks had these like ideals that we can see as being kind of progressive in our eyes. They also had the exact opposite in spades. Like they, it's just sort of, you know, it, everything was just different. Like it's all the same bullshit that we have today. It was just different. Yeah, exactly. Right. I, okay. Okay.

there's so much to say about this couple but I'd love to hear more about like oh I mentioned this is ADHD so you mentioned Hades too and then oh and Troy Fall of a City I would love to hear more about Troy Fall of a City and Hades but both of them are things that my listeners more so Hades with like everyone and their dog wants me to play Hades and I'm sorry to say again I have not because I just don't really play video games that aren't Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Achilles is in that but

But it's the best. Oh my god. But Patrick was is not in that. That's fine. But like the Troy fall of a city. I remember when it started. I watched the first episode and I just for me, it was like so British that it just took me right out and I never kept watching and I don't really remember anything more than thinking like

It's really British. But I'm curious about how they handle it and what you think about it and everything. So Troy, Fall of the City, I find interesting. So I didn't watch it when it came out. I only watched it when I was writing my master's dissertation because I knew there was this threesome between Achilles, Patroclus and Briseis.

which is one of my favorite things to analyze and so I actually got to meet the executive producer and talk to him about this because I was like I wish I could just find out what was going on in their minds about some things so some stuff I can't I got told some stuff in confidence but I think that I can probably talk about but amazing

It was great. But I think Troy for the City is, it had a lot of potential and I think it does some things really well. It really finds itself at the end in the last few episodes and I'm disappointed. I was hoping for a second season, perhaps following Odysseus, but alas, not to be because the show, I mean, the show was absolutely review bombed and a

It's because they cast a black man as Achilles. And that's something I talk about a lot, the impact of race on the reception of his masculinity and sexuality, because I think it's very naive to think that didn't play a role in how people perceive the character. I mean, so I looked at IMDB reviews and apologies in advance to listeners because some of these reviews aren't very nice, but one reviewer called Achilles the average black

angry black dude. And I'm like, sir, have you read the Iliad or any other, like seen any other reception? Anger is literally the first word of the Greek text. That's the driving force of everything. But because it was a black man playing Achilles, it became this marker of race and

which was just awful. But it really adds this extra element. And there's a lot of stuff in the show that's very uncomfortable in terms of masculinity and sexuality. So he assaults Helen at one point, which is an entirely new creation. And when you have this man making comments about like, oh, I could have filled in for your husband if he wasn't satisfying you and then assaulting her. It's playing into all, and Helen is played by a light-skinned white actress. It's definitely playing into these ideas of,

of black men as sexually dangerous which is awful and really dangerous for not only black men but wider communities so I think there was there were some issues I think in the show about that but um the relationship between the caves and metropolis and that I I would have liked to have been a bit more explicit because that is the way they were going it feels at times perhaps they were a bit scared to take it that extra level

So we have this threesome between Achilles, Patroclus and Briseis in the fourth episode. So there's a scene where Patroclus is struck down by the plague of Apollo in Troy, Fall of a City. And so we have Achilles looking after him, nursing him back to health. And I really like that scene because it really brings to mind this like famous scene

Greek piece of pottery where it's Achilles, so a drinking vessel and it's got Achilles bandaging a wounded Patroclus

And which is, wait, side note, which is very interesting for its portrayal of them, because in that Killix, you have clearly younger Achilles beardless and then a bearded Patroclus. So again, the way and the beard, the way the beard looks and way Achilles looks, it very much falls into pottery that depicts pederastic couples.

So again, just bringing it back again, not only in literature do we see it, but we also see it in visual depictions of Achilles and Patroclus from ancient times. But yeah, so...

There's a scene where he's nursing him back to health. And it really, in my mind, I was like, oh, it's like that, you know, Killix. And then what else? Oh, and so eventually he recovers from the plague because they return Chryseis to her father. And there's a scene where they're wrestling on the beach, which wrestling is obviously quite a homoerotic activity anyway. And then...

Achilles manages to pin down Patroclus and then kisses him and it's a really interesting shot so I go very visual in my analysis it's a really interesting shot of them so throughout the show we see Achilles and Patroclus in silhouette like an astounding number of times like

Almost a bit problematic versus the white characters. But we see them kiss in silhouette and then their faces, only their faces then blur as they kiss. And it's worth noting, we never see them kiss again outside of this scene. And when we do see them kiss in the scene, it is in silhouettes.

And then with their faces blurred. And this is in comparison with the white pairings of the show. Even Odysseus gets a flashback farewell scene with his wife, and she's never seen again outside of this like less than a minute long scene. And they get a kiss, not in silhouette with their faces blurred. And if I was being, you know, kind, I think it could perhaps be meant to signify them kind of they're merging into one person perhaps. Yeah.

which I think maybe is what they were intending to do, which is like the Aristophanes speech in Plato's Symposium, that whole image of humans as being two halves of a whole and looking for your other half. And that's been talked about in Song of Achilles. There's the famous line, he is half of my soul, as the poets say. So...

Which is beautiful. I think it's meant to be that way, but then we never see them kiss again outside of this scene. And then Patroclus sort of shoves Achilles off and joins Briseis and she's all like, glad you didn't die, very eloquently. And then kisses Patroclus, Achilles joins, and then all three kiss and it kind of entered them all joining in silhouettes and blurring out of focus.

And then we never see the actual threesome itself. And then Briseis is taken from them. And Achilles doesn't actually seem that upset about it. He's more, the way he talked about it, it's like my girl got taken. He never calls her by name afterwards. It's my girl got taken. You know, he took my spoils, stuff like that, which sort of, in my mind, suggests that

there was no romantic connection. It was kind of more lust driven. And I remember I asked Derek Wax, the producer, I said, why? Why did you do this threesome? And he went, oh, it was quite simply that they had read the Iliad and they had interpreted Achilles and Patroclus in particular as being sort of bisexual or sexually fluid was how he termed it. And so they thought how best to reflect that threesome. Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. I, now I feel like I do need to watch Troy follow the city. We'll see if I make that happen. Um,

But like, okay, there's so many things happening there. Is Patroclus white, the actor? No, Patroclus is also played by a dark-skinned black actor. Okay. Which was, so when you read early reviews of the show, they're like, is this meant to be like their cousins again? They're related or what? But I'm like, just from a purely logistical point of view, you need Patroclus to look similar to Achilles to be able to put on the, because, you know, arms and legs are going to be on show.

So, logistically, you do need them to be the same race. So, yeah. But also in Troy, Fallen City, they play into that again. Achilles is the older of the two versus, again, the ancient sources where Patroclus is older. So, yeah.

It's not as big an age difference, I think, as in Troy between Achilles and Patroclus, but there's still that age difference. But they are quite similar looking. Okay. And I feel like it's interesting because that could also just be like they're saying they're from the same region. Like there's no reason to read it as relations. Yeah, it's interesting. That was where people's minds jumped. But again, I think people didn't quite know where Troy of Fall of a City was going to go with anything. Mm-hmm.

It's so interesting. Like, I mean, I remember hearing about all the backlash towards Achilles being black, which is just generally so sad. It reminds me, I just saw today on Twitter for like a split second, an older illustrator illustration somebody did of Athena as black and just like people being mad again. And it's just...

I mean, I feel like this is such a tired argument, but one that will never go away when it comes to the ancient world. This idea that everyone was fucking white is so bananas. And it's just like, do you know what the Mediterranean looked like? Do you know how big it was? Do you know how much they all like dealt with everyone all around the entire Mediterranean? Like where, where do people get? I mean, I know where they get it because they just get it from like racism and Western civilization as like a concept, but like it's mind boggling.

It's so interesting, the origins of race. Again, that's something I'm looking at in my thesis, like where these ideas come from in visual culture. And one thing I talk about is bodybuilding a lot. So bodybuilders used classical imagery early on, like the founder, Eugen Sando, and he would cover himself in white powder and then mimic these poses of classical statues. Oh, it's great. Look, it's, you know, it's a guy from the 1800s, like pretty much nude apart from like a fig leaf.

mimicking these statues and that definitely plays into it and then bodybuilding used a lot of classical imagery and then the bodybuilders were then cast in these Italian peplum films in the 60s and 50s which again kind of plays on sort of white supremacist ideas like you know

the ideal white man. So there's so much going on in visual culture and the co-option of the ancient world by modern Western societies that when you then cast a dark-skinned black actor as Achilles, everyone loses their mind. It's like, okay, but you don't have an issue about, for instance, what is it?

Brad Pitt, I guess, is a good example. Do you think this 40-year-old, blonde, blue-eyed American man is a good fit? But those inaccuracies are fine. Yeah, I mean, it makes me think of the one kind of memory I have of watching the first episode. And I think it was like, I remember watching The Judgment of Paris and I don't really remember anything else. I just remember thinking like,

They were also for the most part obviously not everybody but like very white and very British and it's like that has become the thing that signifies ancient Greece in terms of a lot of popular culture from Troy to to 300 to Troy fall of the city like that.

is this idea that like, it's like they're because they're in Europe and they're speaking English, they should have British accents, which then means that they're very British. And, and you just kind of this like whiteness as if enough whiteness hasn't already been like ascribed to the ancient world by modern Western society, like as if there isn't enough, which is there's so much, and there's the marble of it all. And, you know, the lack of polychromy and,

But then you get this like movies and things and we get this additional white Western British ideals put on this like Greek world, which like, you know, it makes me think of modern Greece, which doesn't even get the kind of, you know, respect for lack of a better word that like more Western countries get in the modern world. Like modern Greece kind of gets this sort of like

different sort of subset like they don't even get to be the same part of the western civilization that has co-opted their history like they're often treated as lesser they're not on the same level as their ancient counterparts and it's like it's just so bizarre and weird and like i don't feel like i have enough knowledge to talk about it you know in any kind of depth but but this idea yeah that like

Achilles can't be black it is so wild and it's I mean not least because also the place where Achilles comes from in the Iliad is like deeply mythical like it I don't even I feel like it barely even has like a modern locale even in the way that like there's a lot of debate about whether the Ithaca that Odysseus is from is the Ithaca that exists right like yeah Vidya I think like isn't even like it's not even like a place within many other myths it's like just Achilles and his family

And, yeah, it's just, it's so, I mean, I'll never understand it because the whole point of it is just, like, generally racism and white supremacy, but it is so wild to really think about in this idea that, like, the rest of Troy, Fall of the City that is super white is somehow more accurate than a black Achilles is, like.

bananas like all I remember really was like really regional British accents that took me out where it was like they weren't even all speaking at like you know the same kind of accent where I was like I mean it's bad enough that they all have to be British but then like it was really regional where I was like what is happening like it's you know we just really need we need a movie with Greek people would be super chill it's honestly the accent thing always kills me because you have um like so Patroclus is actually played by a South African actor

And Paris is played by an Australian actor. So, but they obviously that's become a default, I guess, is the British accent and it is BBC. So I guess it makes some sense. Yeah. But it's like that in Troy too. Like other than Brad Pitt, who doesn't really try, which I also find very funny, like,

I think he's one of the few that isn't putting on a British accent in Troy for the, like, cause not all of them are British. Like a lot of the actors are, but I feel like Eric Bana might, it's been a while, but like, yeah, I feel like if I recall thinking about it, Brad Pitt has got to be one of the few that isn't trying to sound very British. He's got some sort of accent. Yeah. I don't entirely know what it's meant to be, but it's not his actual voice. Definitely. He's doing some sort of,

epic voice. I feel like he's trying to make it sound like he's from an older time, and that's about it. Like, it's not so much an accent as it is just, like, almost like an inflection based on being like, this is the ancient world. I'm still speaking English, but, like, I'm gonna sound fancier or something. Yeah, he definitely spent more time with his personal trainer than with a dialect coach. Yeah, it's, I mean, oh god, that...

It's fascinating. I do want to watch Troy, Fall of the City now. You should. I recommend. Yeah, I feel like I need to after all this time. But the idea, just to go back to what you were talking about too, and the idea that we see somebody like Odysseus in a flashback kiss Penelope, whereas we don't fully see Achilles and Patroclus kiss, is really interesting. And I think

Like has the obvious race connotation, like you were saying. And I feel like even if they had this goal, like you were saying, like, you know, being kind, you can kind of see them have this, like the souls aspect. And it's like, sure. But I feel like still when you're in this position, you're making this thing, you have to look at it and be like, okay, maybe we have this intention, but.

Also, maybe if we have two black actors playing these really important mythological figures and we make this choice of like, not only are they, you know, two men kissing, but two black men kissing and to not show it is like, no, you've made a horrible mistake, regardless of your original intentions. Like, you've got to look at that and think like, this is going to look bad.

Yeah, I just spoke at a conference about the sort of, especially the use of silhouette in the show and the impact of race. And one of the things I said is that ultimately it just serves as censorship of Black queerness, which reflects, you know, mainstream attitudes. It also reflects racism in queer communities and also homophobia in Black communities in the UK and the USA. So on all these multiple levels, it's,

it is just censorship and reflecting contemporary attitudes from mainstream and marginalized communities. And again, I don't think they were going for it after speaking to Derek. He was genuinely loving, he was really trying to do something good with this, but I think they just, they were trying to employ colorblind casting, which I'm a little skeptical about because I think they deliberately cast black actors in these roles, which I don't have an issue with at all. I think it's a good thing to, you know, increase diversity on, on TV and,

But there was no consideration for how race would then impact people's responses to the characters. And then when you include scenes like the assault of Helen, which does not have any precedent, a black man assaulting a white woman, or the threesome where it's two black men, one white woman. And I talk quite a bit about porn, interracial pornography. And it definitely...

it doesn't present the most flattering portrayal of Achilles. And then we have this added level of his relationship with Patroclus is then not seen or shown. So in their sort of farewell scene, Patroclus is trying to get Achilles to fight. He's saying, fight with me, if not fight for me sort of thing. Um,

And Achilles is like, look, you're pushing your luck, basically. You better stop before I forget that I once held any affection for you. And Patroclus says, it's not affection, it's love. And I'm not afraid of it. So you're getting these declarations of love kind of thing. And throughout that farewell scene, Achilles is like clasping Patroclus kind of on the cheek neck.

And they've got very intense eye contact. And it's exactly like a scene in the 2004 Oliver Stone film, Alexander, which famously was very hesitant to depict the relationship between Alexander and Hephaestus explicitly. And there is a scene where they do the exact same thing, the declarations of love, cupping the cheek, eye contact.

And it was quite frustrating to see this return to 2004 kind of attitudes. I always like to sort of frame it as pre-Brokeback Mountain because that film kind of showed that you can get masculine queerness, which disrupted our... At that point, it was just queerness. Male homosexuality in particular was associated with campness and effeminacy. And we were seeing these traditionally masculine...

uh men who then were actually also queer um and i think after that it there's a shift then in media in representation mainstream media and it was quite it was it was yeah it was disappointing to see this return i would have liked to have seen it more explicitly depicted yeah it's too recent of a show for it for it to behave that way like

Yeah.

I mean, I think even like they could have and probably should have done better, especially in terms of like people from Troy being like Lily White is ridiculous. She's in Turkey. Yeah, it's in Turkey. I mean, give me a break. Like, and not to mention like the like ancient Turkey too. And like the influence that even further east and south had on that whole region. Like, come on.

come on I mean it's like when shows and things depict like somebody like Andromeda as white or like Dido I feel I can't think of an example for Dido but gods know like if she's depicted she's going to be white even though she's from Carthage but like yeah this it's good to do that but you have to also like be really aware of what you're doing and like oh yeah the idea that they also invented an assault of Helen after having cast a black actor as Achilles is like

I don't know what was going on with that scene. And it's so inconsistent with his later treatment of Briseis. And in episode five, Odysseus is trying to get him to come back to fighting. He's like, give me, you know, a reason, one that isn't rape or pillage. And he talks about higher callings. And it's like, sir, you almost raped Helen in episode two or three. Two. And it's frustrating as well that with the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, there is precedent here.

So the TV show Spartacus, the Starz show, had all kinds of sex scenes explicit. So there is this precedent for TV shows to have depicted this, especially TV shows of ancient settings. And in fact, they're known for always having these boundary pushing portrayals of sex.

So it suggests there was a last minute kind of fear of the repercussions, thinking maybe this is too far now, we're going to have to rein it in. That's completely hypothetical. Yeah, it's just fundamentally I find disappointing because there's some other stuff in the show I find really where they don't shy away from stuff that I think's

quite dark so they have spoiler alert for any no wait I don't know if I should say it because you're gonna maybe no no please please spoil away so the last episode they have the baby being thrown off the walls of Troy

They include that scene. And I remember watching it being like, there's no way. Like Odysseus is walking up the walls, the stairs with the bit. And I'm like, there's no way. And they do it. And I thought that was genuinely the best moment in the series because I went, oh, you went full mythological, like dark. And it was brilliant because I'd not seen...

something so dark before because it's, you know, it's murdering a baby. Yeah. Well, I think so often too, like the, Troy doesn't really do this, but they also like the thing that interests me so much in the Iliad is the way the Greeks are pretty objectively focused.

more villainous. Like, you know, I think the Iliad is really interesting in that like it's being written kind of from a Greek perspective, but at the same time, it's like very pro Troy. Like they're very kind to the Trojan characters. Like they seem to be really good people for the most part, like other than the Helen of it all. But like, you know, we appreciate them. They're not villains. They're sort of

at the very least, both sides are kind of equal in terms of morality in the Iliad. And I think Troy does that to an extent, but they also don't villainize the Greeks in the way that the Iliad does like something like, and not that, not that that's in the Iliad, but like in the ancient sources, I should say broadly, because obviously like that, the ending is not in the Iliad, but yeah,

But like the way the ancient sources do make the Greeks look bad, like Odysseus throwing Assynex off a wall or like the, the absolute complete destruction of Troy and like,

These different things where the Greeks do look bad, like a lot of shows don't do that. So it is sort of now I realize I'm talking around in circles, but that's great that they do emphasize like the absolute horrific nature of some of the things that the Greeks do to the Trojans. Yeah, I think the show had, I think it had got a second season.

perhaps following Odysseus because I think they were setting up the way it ends with like close on Odysseus. I think they're really setting up to follow him in the Odyssey. And I think they had really sort of found their feet by the end. So I would have loved to have seen something else. I mean, I just feel very fond of it. Even as I express my disappointment at some of the stuff, I find it such an interesting reception. Yeah.

of the ancient sources and the relationship of Achilles and Patroclus. It's given me a lot of fuel for my thesis. Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think it's so like...

it's so important that we can appreciate things and also criticize them. So like, that's awesome. Yeah. You can like a thing and then also be like, here's the things that that did wrong. You mentioned earlier star Spartacus. Well, actually, and like what I would not give for an odyssey retelling on screen. That's good. Like I cannot express because my epic of love and the thing that like got me obsessed is the odyssey. So like I'm very biased towards Odysseus and,

Less so with the Asunax issue. We don't throw babies off of walls. I might not like children, but like, we don't put that far. Yeah, that's going too far. It's too far. But yeah, I mean, generally I want that. But also I think Star Spartacus is a really good example. Not perfect, but a good example of showing that.

the actual nature of like what people would have looked like in the ancient Mediterranean due to the way everyone moved around and worked together and things like it's still fairly white. It's very Australian and New Zealand, obviously, but like they do make a real point of having more regional like ideas of people. Usually they're enslaved, but it is Rome. So like we get it. But yeah, it's interesting that,

Something like Troy Fall of a City could come after Star Spartacus and still make so many of those, like you were saying, like kind of pre-Brokeback Mountain movies.

ideas and use sort of those, those, what are now problematic things when it did, you know, come after a show like Spartacus, which is obviously not perfect, but like has a lot, it really did address, it addresses like the violence of the ancient world. Like it addresses the, the amount of assaults that would have taken place like enslavement broadly and, and like people of color just existing. If it's not clear, I'm

really like that show and of course like I obviously there's a huge part of it which is like the stars versus BBC of it all but it's still really interesting but like yeah that show came out in like 2012 and Troy followed the city had to have been like 2017 or 18 yeah I do sometimes wonder about the extent and that's something I kind of explore my thesis is the the role of the BBC so as part because it's funded mostly by TV license and then partially by taxpayers

There's a certain level. They have to reflect modern diversity and they have a royal charter with five aims and one of them is diversity reflecting the UK as it is today. But at the same time, because it's anyone who watches live TV or BBC iPlayer has to pay this licence fee, there's then that worry of if they go too far in terms of, for instance, I think

Black queerness would be quite, it's controversial, it shouldn't be, but it is controversial. And a lot of people who watch live TV are older generations, and they're going to be the ones who are most resistant. And I guess there's maybe a fear of backlash. Again, this is completely me just being hypothetical right now. But I think, yeah, the difference between that versus Starz

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. I mean, we have the Canadian equivalent as a Commonwealth country. We have the CBC and like, I couldn't see the CBC doing something like Star Spartacus. Like I get it. Yeah. I mean, stars is also like, it's not on HBO's level, but in terms of like being able to have violence and sex, like it's closer. So, I mean, yeah, the difference is there, but it, it does still speak to, like you're saying, like it's controversial, but it shouldn't be just this like very basic idea of,

Of like, if you're going to show a kiss between everyone else, like maybe you also show the kiss between two black men because it's exactly the same as all the other kisses that you're showing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I'm really glad we got to talk about Troy, follow the city because it was like a huge extra thing that I did not really know enough about at all.

But okay. Yeah, I mean, now I've kept you for a while. This has been absolutely fascinating. Are there any other like depictions that you want to mention or talk about at all? Yes, actually. So there's the TV show Hannibal. Okay, I've heard about it, never seen it.

I love it. So I'm quite into the fandom of it as well. So I love any excuse to kind of nerd out over the TV show. So for anyone who doesn't know, it's about Hannibal Lecter and his relationship with this FBI profiler, Will Graham. And it starts off, we're watching and because it's at the time where we were being queer based a lot on TV and watching and thinking, okay, this is just another example. But then it starts to

kind of become actual actual uh real relationship between the two um and there's one scene which I it's a very minor reference to Achilles and Patroclus but the fandom just jumps on it and seized it and it's um uh Hannibal Lecter is a very skilled artist and he's drawing uh a

painting of Achilles lamenting the death of Patroclus and it's by Nikolai Ghe it's a Russian painter the original and he's doing a copy of it and as Will comes in he explains the painting and Achilles and Patroclus relationship and he very much situates

himself as Achilles and Will as Patroclus due to Will's extreme empathy because that's a very defining feature of Patroclus in ancient sources and later and I thought it was really interesting because it's it was at a time where their relationship was still in the homoerotic realm but not

no one really knew whether where it was going whether we were just being baited again and it really it was clearly being used as this kind of marker of homoeroticism and the ambiguity of their relationship as well as kind of like how destructive their relationship is and again I thought it was very interesting as well to see this paint a real painting being uh copied because again Achilles and Patroclus especially Achilles lamenting the death of Patroclus is quite a

Not super popular, but it appears in quite a few paintings in the sort of 18th and 19th centuries. So it was a whole other sort of, it tapped into this whole other reception of Achilles and Patroclus in art, as well as the way in which they could be used as a couple as signifiers of a homoerotic relationship. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah.

Yeah, it sounds like it also just like, yeah, represents so many different things, like both in terms of the characters and the show and Achilles and Patroclus. I love that. I mean, classical reception in anything is very fun. It makes me happy. And then the fan, a lot of fanfic will quote that or make Achilles and Patroclus metaphors and similes.

And then there was some fan art where they would draw Hannibal Lecter as Achilles in the painting that he was copying. And then Will Graham as Patroclus. So people were then changing the artwork. So really this clear identification between the two characters in the mythology versus the show.

That must be so much fun sometimes to be able to like have it be part of your PhD to kind of look at stuff like fan art. And like you mentioned fan fiction at some point, I'm trying to decide whether the microphone was on or not, but like,

the idea that that's kind of like part of it and you kind of just get to go and dive into like how everyday people have taken these characters and run with them must be so interesting it really is and it's fun because we see it from even antiquity to today the whole alexander and hephaestion the way they characterize themselves as achilles and patroclus going to visit the tomb of achilles and laying a wreath or something um

So even from antiquity, we've seen people using them as sort of markers of their relationship. And it carries on today. And I just think it's, it is, it's utterly fascinating. I love it. I love what I'm studying.

Yeah, it's such a fun way of studying the ancient world. I mean, it just it feels like it connects so much to like what I do with my show, which is just being able to like study all of it or like look at everything or like kind of whatever you want at any given moment, which just makes it considerably more fun, I think. So, okay. I mean, God, this was crazy.

so much fun i knew this episode was going to be good but like absolutely even better than i i love talking about this stuff i mean i will talk about the ancient world in any way but like these characters are so interesting and there's so many things like i both did and did not know so yeah no uh thank you so much for doing this thank you for having me i've honestly had such a blast um

It's just, yeah, there's so much talk about we could talk for hours more because there's so many before any of the listeners say, well, you didn't talk about this or that. I know I've missed so many different receptions, but there's just... I mean, yeah, as it is, like...

We didn't even get to Troy, Fall of a City until it was close to an hour and a half. And I was like, shit, well, I'm glad you're able to keep talking because I really want to hear about this. Yeah, and I know there's so much. And we didn't even talk about Hades. I just admitted that I hadn't played it. I've not looked at it yet for my thesis. I played the game a while ago, but not all the way through. So I never actually completed there.

side quests so I don't actually have too much to say on but I'm going to be looking at sort of fan art as well as part of my chapter on that because I think the fandom is very interesting yeah yeah I mean I've just got this like taste of like whatever people send me which granted is a lot um because if Hades has done anything it's like opened people up to like Orphic tradition which was a whole thing for me for a while because it's and it's

it wild anyway I won't go into that because it's a mess um but yeah okay before I just keep going on and on thank you so much do you want my listeners to follow you anywhere do you like anywhere to learn more or what have you that you want to share anything oh yeah so um I have my twitter which is a cg underscore classics um I share memes or if you have memes please send them to me because

I might include them in my PhD thesis, especially if they're about Troy, Troy, Fall of a City, Hades or Song of Achilles. Those are the ones I'm all fan art. If you see any good fan art, please send it my way. If you can find the actual artist, just yeah, I want it all basically. I love that. I bet you're going to get some stuff because if I know my listeners, they feel strongly about Achilles and Patroclus and Hades.

Oh, nerds, nerds, nerds. This fucking couple. Am I right? I mean, I absolutely love the idea that for all modern people like to debate now, like whether or not they were in a romantic or sexual relationship or just like good pals, good friends. In the ancient world, they literally just wanted to know like who was the top and who was the bottom or rather who was the dominant one, who was the Erastes, who was the Euraminos.

Fucking fascinating. Also, now I might just have to watch Troy Fall of a City, you know, just like five years too late. Thank you all so much for listening, as always. And make sure you follow Charlotte on Twitter because gods, the memes, the memes, you guys. Her Twitter is linked in the episode's description, as always. And gods, this episode was so much fun. And how could it not be? Because we're talking not only Achilles and Patroclus, but how they appear in modern reception. They're just, they're fascinating.

Let's talk about Myths, baby. It's written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. She handles so many podcast-related things, gods, just everything, including so much research for that symposium episode. Michaela's the best. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. So amazing. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon.com slash mythsbaby or click the link in this episode's description.

Thank you all. You're super cool, just like Achilles and Patroclus. I am Liv, and I love this shit.

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