RE-AIR: Queering the Classical World w/ Yentl Love (the Queer Classicist)
01:21:46 Share

Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like, "Hey, we came to play"? Did you tip your tiara to a Creole princess or get goofy officially? Step up like a boss and save the day? Or see what life's like under the tree of life? Did you? If you could, would you? When we come through, it's true magic, 'cause we came to play. Bring the magic at Walt Disney World Resort.

This is your moment, your time to shine, your comeback.

You're ready for the next step in your career, and you want an education employers respect. So you're not just going back to school. You're coming back with Purdue Global. Backed by Purdue University, one of the nation's most respected public universities, Purdue Global is built for people who bring their life experience into the online classroom. Purdue Global, Purdue's online university for working adults. Start your comeback today at purdueglobal.edu.

This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Toyota has been building a legacy of excellence for years, from developing hybrid technology to upping the standards of safety and efficiency. Toyota is always innovating, always making progress. And with a superior lineup of in-stock SUVs, including the adventure-ready RAV4 and capable, affordable Corolla Cross, you can experience the legacy of Toyota for yourself. Visit

buyatoyota.com, the official website for deals to find out more. Toyota, let's go places. Hi, hello there. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I am your host, Liv, here with another wonderful conversation episodes because, gods, I love conversation episodes.

Today I have got returning guest Yentl Love. Yentl joined me on the podcast all the way back in 2021, like I honestly think she was one of the earliest guests I had, and true to Yentl's expertise and online persona back then, and now she is back to talk about queerness in ancient myth.

But now she's even fancier. So Yentl is teaching a course on queer theory in classics soon. And so join me to talk all about that. We talked about queer theory. That is the study of queerness broadly. But particularly how it applies to study in the ancient world and like what that means for modern people and those in the ancient world. It was generally all fascinating. But we also talked about Lil Nas X because, yeah, like he's deeply relevant when it comes to this topic.

No spoilies as to how and why, though. I'm going to let Yentl talk about that because I have never been so enthralled listening to someone talk about a music video. Honestly, just wait.

We had so much fun with this chat and it's really just generally so interesting, but also beneficial. It's important to talk about queerness, gender and sexuality in the ancient world because it really connects to the modern world. And so I am thrilled to not only have a returning guest, but someone whose knowledge has just grown so much since the last time that she was on. And we all get to learn so much more. And how fucking fun is that? Conversations, queering the classical world with Yentl Love, the queer classicist.

This is so exciting to have you back. It's wild because you were like one of my really earliest conversations. And I think it's been like two years, which is so bananas. Yeah. So it's so nice to have you back talking about queer things. But otherwise, I just kind of want to chat with you about like everything that you do, because I think.

just all the whole realm of like studying like queerness and relationship to in relation to the classical world is fascinating um so I know you kind of well let's remind my listeners that you were here last time to talk about I think it was just generally queerness as well but then we also talked about like was it like Harry Styles as Dionysus? Yeah exactly yeah yeah which I I absolutely love and I at the time I did not know really anything about him and then last year I listened to

to so much Harry Styles that like it went too far but then you know this time you suggested talking about Lil Nas X which is also fascinating but yeah I kind of just want to hear literally everything and anything when it comes to what you study and talk about and now what you're going to be teaching about because it's all amazing yeah well and I'm starting teaching about like queer theory and queerness in the ancient world so it's very relevant I

know I was so excited to have you want to come back because like it's always something I want to talk about but I don't know enough myself so having guests on to like just tell me everything is so perfect so like maybe like

do you want to talk a little bit about like kind of the queer theory broadly, like kind of how it applies, you know, to the world of what you study? Yeah. So queer theory is basically just a form of kind of literary theory. And the idea is that it branched off from like lesbian and gay theory because the practitioners thought that

obviously lesbian and gay theory is very very valuable but your sexuality is such a small part of the kind of broader spectrum of who you are that to just focus on your sexuality kind of misses out a lot of the other identities which come together and provide like privilege and things like that so for example

Myself as a white queer person is going to have a massively different experience or a white cis queer person, a massively different experience than a trans lesbian person of colour, even though we fall under the same LGBT hierarchy.

And so these other identities have a really big impact on who we are as a person. And so queer theory came about as kind of this intersectional approach to queerness.

primarily studying sexuality but also it became not just a way to think about alternative sexualities but to think about focusing on power and who has the power in a society and what is considered normal and then who is quote-unquote the outsider. So when it comes to sexuality you know things like heterosexuality is considered kind of the norm and it has been for

Hundreds, thousands of years. And so from that aspect, queer theory then looks at like, oh, OK, so these other sexualities are considered to be not normal or kind of deviant. But then one of the really valuable things about queer theory is that you can then bring in other sexualities.

other aspects of study that also focus on the disempowered people and the kind of minority experiences. So in classics, that can mean bringing in things like black classicism to look at classics through this kind of black scholarship and this, like in Lil Nas X, how does the use of ancient history, what does that mean for

like considering the fact that he is a black artist, let's look at this through this kind of lens. And what does that specifically mean in the, like the use of classics? That can be all kinds of things like looking at both like race in antiquity, but also the kind of reclaiming of figures in antiquity, like the whole debate over Cleopatra's race, ethnicity, that comes up a lot. And then also like the work of,

like incredible black classics researchers all across the world that are doing like really amazing work. People like, I think her name's Emily Greenwood. And so it brings in black studies and classics in this really interesting way. Also studies of disability and antiquity. You know, you can look at figures like Hephaestus, the god through the lens of disability,

And yeah, it's just, it opens up a very interesting kind of intersectional approach to studying people who were considered not normal, in quotes, by kind of general society, people who were on the outside and who didn't have that kind of like intrinsic power that society gave them. And that kind of brings us well into like another

kind of really important thing about queer theory and one of the reasons why I personally think it's so valuable is because whenever you say you're like talking about like

the queer experience in it, the ancient world, you're always going to get people that are like, oh, but you know, gay is a modern term and you're just like putting modern ideas on the ancient world. Like, I think that's one of the most common kind of like pushbacks. Oh, it is. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure that comes up in your comments that are, oh, different podcasts. Yeah. Yeah. That's not new to you. So, yeah. And so one of the,

With queer theory, because you're looking at kind of experiences, and so you can say, oh, the lived experiences of these people wasn't considered normal by society. So that doesn't have to mean that, oh, it was exactly the same

they would consider themselves a gay person. You're not saying that you're saying that these experiences were not the considered the normal or the rights or the proper kind of lived experiences for a person in antiquity. And yeah, so when we're using queer theory, we try to say things like homoeroticism or same sex attraction and that,

When I was first coming into Classics, I found that really annoying. I was like, why are you like shying away from just saying, oh, this is like a gay person. Yeah, I found that really, it really frustrated me.

But what I've come to kind of like learn throughout it, and I completely also I completely, completely get that people are frustrated that people say this person experienced same sex attraction, instead of just saying this person was probably gay. I get why that is annoying, especially when you're like looking for reflections of yourself in the past as we all do.

completely get that but I think one of the like potentially easiest ways to understand why it kind of makes a difference is for example now like I really like a sweet breakfast I'm a sweet breakfast kind of person if I see someone eating a savoury breakfast I don't then immediately read like put them in my head with the label savoury breakfast eater and I don't say oh I'm

Like this person, you won't ever imagine, but they eat a savoury breakfast. Couldn't believe it. I saw them eating a savoury breakfast because we in the modern world don't consider that an identity. Yeah. And so like in the same kind of way in the ancient world, things weren't, didn't necessarily, our identities don't necessarily match up with what ancient identities were.

In another culture, maybe what type of breakfast you eat will become a defining identity. And then people in the future looking back might say, oh, it looks like this person enjoyed a sweet breakfast from now on again. But it still wouldn't be correct to put that kind of label, which is why...

we use these terms like same-sex attraction and homoeroticism, which you absolutely can see all the way through history. And yeah, so that's just a slight, like, and I know I do appreciate that it can feel like you're just kind of scared to say these people were probably gay.

But it's just all because of that, because identities don't necessarily match up through cultures and through time. But experiences do and attraction does. Yeah, that's really interesting. I love that kind of explanation. And I think it's like, I mean, yeah, as much as people can be frustrated by that, explaining it is really helpful and like gets that across of the why thing.

That that is, you know, a good way of phrasing it. Like myself and, you know, obviously I'm in a different situation. I'm not in academia. I'm not studying. And I am working like my work is meant to be for literally everybody. So I'm not I don't go too deep into like phrases and, you know, all these different terms. But for me, I've taken to saying things like, you know, this this person is.

was probably or was maybe what we would now call gay and stuff which I think is like it's not as obviously specific and detailed as using those terms but it is kind of like another way of doing that where you're like I'm not putting that on them because they would not have seen it

But like in order for modern people to understand, you know, it's kind of like that. But I'm interested how that like or what kind of terminology you would use. Like one of the things that I really like to talk about is...

you know, the mythology that exists around trans people in the ancient world. And so like, is there a kind of phrasing in that respect when you're talking about, you know, those myths that we might see now as resembling trans stories? I mean, I think that with that, just that

Like, for example, when I've been writing papers about these early kind of conceptions of Aphrodite or Venus that you see on Cyprus, where you get this statue that is kind of shaped like a woman, has like breasts and kind of feminine hair and feminine clothes, but that has a beard and often like a

a dick, a penis, I don't know what you would say on the show. Whatever you want. It's the beauty of podcasting. Exactly. And was thought of as both male and female at the same time. We get this guy called Macrobius, who's ancient Roman in like 400 CE or AD, depending on what you want, who's writing about this. And figures like that, I think the term non-binary is...

incredibly useful and obviously it has even in the modern day people that are non-binary there's a massive kind of spectrum of you know the pronouns they might use the way that they outwardly present themselves the experiences that they have non-binary even now doesn't have like a set of

definition or a set kind of experience, it's still this broad spectrum of experiences that we put under the label of non-binary. And I think in that way, I personally will use non-binary in my writings because it's

just in the way that this isn't what the ancient world might have put in the category of male or female, like these two separate categories. But then even that in itself is kind of a flawed way to look at it because our

male female binary that we have now is kind of this direct result of western colonialist views and what we consider male and female now as two separate defined identities we can't just like we can't say oh there were necessarily these sexual identities in the ancient world we don't know that our

understanding of gender or our thoughts on gender match perfectly with the ancient world. We don't know whether that's the case or not. And, you know, there are a lot of these figures in antiquity that don't seem to fall in either category. So I would say personally, I use

non-binary when I'm talking about things that don't seem to be presenting in the kind of traditional masculine or feminine fashion um and then there are I think actually what you said about how you would describe how um

people in the ancient world who we might today call lesbian or whichever. I think that kind of works quite well because you get like

for example, the Roman emperor. Give me one sec, because I'm just going to make sure I'm saying this right, because there are so many syllables. Oh God, yeah. Yeah, so the Roman emperor Elagabalus. That was the one I was going to guess when you said so many syllables. Exactly. I'm always like, which ones come first? But

But, yeah, when we have, like, records of him... And obviously the records are potentially written by people who are trying to suggest that Elagabalus wasn't a great emperor and are trying to, like, slander him a bit. So we don't know, like, necessarily how absolutely accurate all of these are. But when they say things like, oh...

They wanted to be known by a female name. They acted like a wife to other figures. And even there's one record that suggests that they offered a massive amount of money to anyone who would give them a vagina. Wow. So things like that, I would say...

suggest that that emperor may have felt what we would call transgender may have been transgender but yeah so I think that yeah like you said that's a really good way of kind of talking about these things that these experiences how we might understand them today is through this lens I mean because even like

Like what ancient people considered to be marriage is very different to what we in the modern world, in modern society would consider to be marriage. And marriage as a concept is very different in different parts of the world. Like we do have these abstract concepts and we, you know, put them onto words.

the ancient world and put them onto different aspects of society as best we can to kind of say, hey, this might be a helpful way to understand this and this might be mirrored in this practice. But at the end of the day, none of it is perfect. None of it matches on. Yeah. Yeah, that's very... I didn't know. I mean, I'm just so deep into Greece that I didn't even know about a...

I'm not going to try to say their name. That emperor. I didn't know about that emperor. I knew the name, but I didn't even know the reference point. As soon as you said a bunch of syllables, I was like, is it that one? But I didn't know anything about them. But that's really interesting. And I always come back to, there's so many myths. A lot of times in somebody like Ovid with these transformations that we can read

as resembling transgender identities in, you know, in the modern world. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and I, I always like to talk about them, like not least they're interesting, but also, you know, they're, they're, I think really helpful for people who are identified that way now to like see themselves in the ancient world. And so, especially where I'm coming from, where like,

it's very much for a general audience you know it is so nice to have those kind of phrases where I can say like I think you know this person is what we would now see as trans it's nice because it's like it's very accessible and you get to use that same word that people identify with now and just sort of becomes beneficial in that respect yeah yeah

And especially like, you know, when we have this author, this Roman author, Lucian, who writes this, it's called the Dialogues of the Courtesans. It's not supposed to be factual. It's supposed to be like funny, but...

But he's writing between this kind of story and it's between two women. And one of them is saying to the other, like, oh, I've heard you're like sleeping with this woman now. Tell me all about it. I want to hear all the gossip about it. And we hear this story that she that they're telling each other of this character who's called Magilla.

but later says, no, call me McGillis, takes off this wig, has a shorn, like, bald head, and says, I'm a man. And this girl says, like, what do you mean? Do you mean, like, did a god intervene? Like, what, are you, like, a eunuch? And McGillis says, no, like, I was born like you, but I'm a man. And

very clearly and says like oh you'll see like I can pleasure you just like any man would and but it's very like adamant that no like he might have been been introduced as Megillah which is a female name and he but he is Megillus he's a man um and I don't really know how else someone could interpret that

That's pretty straightforward. Yeah. And people say, you know, oh, but, you know, this is a comedy. This is, you know, but even if it's a comedy, even if Lucian is like laughing at this character, even if this is some like transphobic joke, that doesn't mean that for a transphobic joke to happen, trans people need to have existed like before.

So regardless of whether Lucian is like making fun of Megillus, that doesn't undermine Megillus's existence. Like he still exists as a character that Lucian has written. Yeah. It's like, where would he have gotten the idea? Like it's like the same with all the myths that are like that, which I love because the myths are a lot less straightforward. So I love that there are these like very straightforward examples from real people. Like that's wonderful. I always forget that Rome can kind of give us that stuff when Greece can't always, but like,

The myths are, you know, are kind of, they have a similar vein, which is just sort of this idea that like, obviously these stories existed in some form. And so, yeah, whether or not the person writing them or telling the stories is

you know, approved or, or like believed whatever the, the story, like they're still telling the story and thus a person we can see as trans now still existed like regardless. So yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The argument that Lucian was making fun of them and thus like, it's not real. It's like bananas. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like, "Hey, we came to play"? Did you tip your tiara to a Creole princess or get goofy officially? Step up like a boss and save the day? Or see what life's like under the tree of life? Did you? If you could, would you? When we come through, it's true magic, 'cause we came to play. Bring the magic at Walt Disney World Resort.

This is it. Your moment. This is your time to make your comeback with Purdue Global. When you come back with a Purdue Global degree, you create opportunity for yourself, your family, and your future. It's a degree you can be proud of. A degree that employers will trust and respect. Purdue Global offers working adults like you over 175 flexible degree programs to meet your specific career goal.

goals. These include associate, bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees and certificates. Purdue Global degree programs range from nursing to business to communication and more. Whatever your interests, we have the degree that will move you forward.

You have the knowledge. You have the experience. Now it's time to get credit for the work you've done and earn the recognition you deserve with Purdue Global, Purdue's online university for working adults. You know you're worth it. We do too. So don't wait another second to get the degree that will take your career to the next level. Start your comeback today at purdueglobal.edu.

Have you made the switch to NYX? Millions of women have made the switch to the revolutionary period underwear from NYX. That's K-N-I-X. Period panties from NYX are like no other, making them the number one leak-proof underwear brand in North America. They're comfy, stylish, and absorbent, perfect for period protection from your lightest to your heaviest days. They

They look, feel, and machine wash just like regular underwear, but feature incognito protection that has you covered. You can shop sizes from extra small to 4XL. Choose from all kinds of colors, prints, and different styles, from bikinis to boy shorts, thongs to high-rise. You've got to try NYX. See why millions are ditching disposable, wasteful period products and have switched to NYX.

Go to knix.com and get 15% off with promo code TRY15. That's knix.com, promo code TRY15 for 15% off life-changing period underwear. That's knix.com.

Well, since we're on this and like I kind of want to jump around and talk about everything, but you brought up the statues of Aphrodite. And so, yeah, one of the other things that you kind of suggested we talk about was like trans Aphrodite. And that's something that I have not read.

looked into much but like I've always kind of known stories of and so I would love to hear more about these ideas of like a trans Aphrodite yeah so I love this idea and this concept of like a trans Aphrodite I think it's one of the most like one of my favorite kind of

interpretations of uh god or goddess from antiquity and actually uh bettany hughes wrote in her book venus and aphrodite which is an amazing amazing book she writes about how the kind of like birth story of venus or aphrodite is that you have uh this titan like og god uranus

And his son cuts his dick off and throws it into the sea. And then from this cut off dick. I call it castration foam. That's been my, I've kind of coined that term. Yeah. I love that. I love it. From the castration foam up comes Aphrodite. And so biologically Aphrodite just is a hundred percent male. There has been no female male,

influence in her creation she's 100 come out of a dick um and so bettany hughes talks about this and says that it's it could be this early recognition of a non-binary nature of sex and desire

Which I think is a really interesting starting point. Just, yeah, that she comes out of this kind of mythology in a really interesting way. And then, yeah, like I said, it's in Cyprus.

that you see these kind of sculptures of the goddess in like a traditional female form and dress, but then wearing a really thick beard. And you also, alongside these kind of depictions of the goddess in these sanctuaries across Cyprus, you see these non-binary figures who appear to have been

what we would call like transgender priests. So these figures don't fall into a typical category of male or female, and they're all kind of coming together in this worship of Aphrodite in this specific region. Mm-hmm.

And I'll just say too for the listeners, Cyprus is also mythologically where she was born, which I think also says a lot about that, like where that castration foam erupted was said to be off the coast of Cyprus. Yeah, exactly. And Aristophanes, this playwright, talks about

Aphrodite and says that she was brought to Athens from Cyprus and that on Cyprus people worshipped Aphrodite, Aphroditos. So that's an Aphrodite in both female and male form and that she had these massive celebrations where people cross-dressed in her honour. So yeah, all the way through

In loads of different sources, we find it all coming back to Cyprus. And then there being this kind of fluidity of the kind of gendered appearance and associations with the goddess, which I think is just so, yeah, it's just so interesting. Mm-hmm.

As I said before, this guy Macrobius, this Roman writer who then talked about this again, about this statue of Venus that, you know, had a beard, was dressed as a woman, but then was exposing the fact that she had this dick and they conceive of her as not just female, but also male and female.

He lists off a whole bunch of different authors. So also Aristophanes again, and he's this guy, Lavius and Philorcus is another one. And he has them all in a list, basically just like providing more evidence to the fact that, oh, like Philorcus also says that men sacrifice to her wearing women's dress and women in men's because she's held to be both male and female. So, yeah, so yeah,

reading that, there does seem to be this association. And it isn't found all over ancient Greece. Like, it is just, it seems to be very specifically located to Cyprus. But it's just a really fascinating kind of, like, mini celebration in the kind of broader scheme of celebrations of this goddess of, you know, effectively of Cyprus.

you know, love, beauty, sex, just like this pinnacle of like, at the time, what it meant to be this desirable woman. And then you get this just really interesting, like kind of focus in on this non-binary approach to, as Bettina Hughes said, this non-binary nature of sex and desire. And yeah, that's expressed through sculptures that,

it looks like what the priests might have worn and identified with and all of these like worshipers. And yeah, it just, it's just a really interesting kind of case study into the fact that ancient history wasn't just cisgender binary. This is male, this is female, but there's just this like massive colorful spectrum of experiences and

Yeah, it's really cool. Well, and it makes me think too about the fact that she is tied to the story of hermaphroditus, which is like this idea of an intersex person. And it feels like, I mean, that it's interesting that, that that story is sort of, and I don't know the regionality of that. I'm forgetting where I know a lot of it probably comes from Ovid, but I'm trying to think of like anything early earlier sources, but yeah,

It's interesting that like she has this nature tied to Cyprus, but even in the broader kind of sense, she still has these kind of, you know, fluidity of gender stories or this story of a person who is just inherently both, you know, biologically. And that's sort of interesting in itself or like sort of a connection to like the broader Greek world having these stories that tie in with Aphrodite. And even the like,

the Eros of it all too, because there's all these different kinds of stories about what level of like relation Eros has to Aphrodite. Like there's the idea of that kind of primordial Eros, but then also the Eros that is more directly born. Like sometimes it's like, he's born alongside her too. Like I feel like Hesiod is the one, or he also talks about the primordial Eros, but then he also has this Eros that is born like,

almost with Aphrodite from that foam. And that kind of feels like a similar thing where it's like, we still have these kind of like, unlike the rest of the gods, which kind of have their sort of one-off, uh,

thing that they're the god of and there's only one and they're gendered and whatever like love is the thing love and desire and sexuality is the thing that gets even in the most sort of conservative tellings you still get a female goddess and a male goddess of those things and then if you do look into it beyond that and and are looking at it more for that kind of

non-binary fluidity nature, like you will, you can sort of see how the two of them kind of act in tandem as this kind of like team so that there are,

you know, there is like a broader spectrum when it comes to really specifically sexuality and love and desire and everything. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. Yeah. Do you know, I'm curious, like, especially because of where Cyprus is like so far East, you know, there are all these ties with Aphrodite to goddesses of the East, like from,

for some reason astarte is the only one i can think of right now but oh and and like inanna and ishtar connection to aphrodite i'm questioning everything now but but basically do you know if those if those eastern forms that kind of lend themselves to aphrodite historically like whether they had any kind of trans nature as well yeah like they completely do like

So we've got like in Phoenicia, we have like Astarte and then like in different areas of the Near East, it's Ishtar. And then from Ishtar, you can go even further back to ancient Sumeria to Inanna. And I think it's Ishtar, but also it might crop up in some of the worship of Inanna as well. But they have, we have these texts that talk about how amazing their goddess is.

And they say, oh, and your ability to turn men to women. And there are these things that pop up about different priests and priestesses where these ancient goddesses were seen to have the ability to take someone who had...

you know, been identified male at birth and then through the worship of this goddess was then transformed into something else. Whether they were then considered to be like a woman or whether it was just like no longer a man. But yeah, we see this ability in these kind of this Near Eastern goddess worship with Ishtar and Inanna who are

it seems like they can transcend the normal like boundaries of gender and they have the ability to enable their worshippers to kind of transcend this typical binary, which is actually like a big part of when you're looking for evidence of, especially kind of like transgender experiences, it often comes through,

divine intervention. Like it's very much seen like, okay, this, that's why I think the example with Lucian and Megillus is a really interesting example because that's one of the only ones where there isn't any kind of God involved. But, you know, all the way throughout like Ovid's metamorphoses with the characters like Iphes and Cainus and people, they are all,

they all change gender through the intervention of a god or goddess. And yeah, it's very much seen like this is the ability of the divine to do this. And so, yeah, that's quite an interesting connection. I think that the divine have, yeah, that it's seen as something that can be

I wouldn't say necessarily a gift, but it's seen as like the, to change gender often requires a God involved in these stories, which isn't to say of course, that like that was the experience of lived people in ancient times, but just with the literature that we see, a lot of the literature attributes that to the gods being above nature and above the kind of limits of,

people and culture and all of this kind of thing the gods act outside of that and so they can change things that people might not be able to yeah I've always kind of seen it through those stories specifically and like and I do think mostly of the same ones you mentioned like if it's in Canis but

like the idea of Canis is a little bit different, different and weird because it's, there's like a trauma involved. Yeah. But if this is a good example where it's almost like the God was just kind of able to, to give them like what they wanted, you know, and sort of like fix what was seen as a problem. And it's kind of nice, you know, it's kind of like, it's almost, and I, you know, it's impossible to say what people's lived experiences were, like you said, but it's,

But it's kind of nice to imagine that it was seen like that, where a person who felt like they were born in the wrong body could have this example of like, oh, well, you know, at least somebody like me got changed by the God to be who they felt that they were or things like that. It's just kind of nice. Yeah, I know. I think you can really like...

Because the whole point of ancient stories, they're supposed to be entertaining. You're supposed to enjoy reading them, right? So I think there isn't anything wrong with trying to find affirmations and find good bits in them. So even this story of Canis, as you said... Am I saying that right? I haven't said that in so long. Canis, Canis... I was trying to remember... Well, it's both. And I think Canis is when they're a woman. And then Canius...

is when they're transformed into a man so that's what i know i questioned it i know i haven't i've read of it but not that story it's actually on my list of like i'm probably going to cover it around the time when this episode is coming but yeah but i think you had it right but okay so like even in uh this depiction of kenya so as you said it's the transformation comes from trauma it's not a nice position that we find

the this kind of change in gender we don't find that happening out of a for a good reason but at the end of the passage about like at the end of this kind of story we see this uh

big fight between the centaurs and the lapis and kaneus is in that fight and some centaurs are like chatting shit like oh like you were you're not even a real man you were born a woman like you're not a proper man and then kaneus like completely beats the shit out of them like wrecks them all and then at the end there's this kind of affirming like oh see like

he's a real guy. He did everything that you could do. Like, and the characters then really support Kamius and attack this kind of transphobic centaur, which is like a mad sentence. Transphobic centaur is a whole vibe. Exactly. So like, even in,

a story that begins with a massive amount of trauma and like pain you can still kind of take away these potentially like affirming aspects and I think that's like an important thing to remember that like stories are meant like you're meant to enjoy these stories they're not just things I don't think that classics should ever like remain just things to like

study and these kind of like dusty texts that you just have to think really critically about like at the end of the day these were stories designed to entertain people and I think it's important that they kind of remain like that like they should otherwise the whole field is just going to die if people don't feel like they can actually enjoy and relate to and

I mean, as you can see with all of the retellings that are happening at the moment, like I know that's like big about how many different kind of like stories we're seeing coming out there. And I just think it's so valuable. I'm like, yeah, we should all be like reading all of these different myths and all of these stories by these ancient authors. They're crazy entertaining. Some of them are unbelievably like awful, but in the best kind of way, like if,

I don't know, have you ever read any like of juveniles work? No. I'm sure you'll eventually like cover juvenile satires. Like, oh my days, that it's stuff that is like shocking to joke about now, but it's still like massively entertaining to read. And yeah, so I think that

There is something really valuable about finding the joy and the affirmation in these ancient myths and stories. And we shouldn't forget that these are stories. They're designed to be told and to be read and to be interpreted in whatever way you want, because these are fictional stories.

like things like of it and things like that and yeah I think a lot of the time especially and like as someone in the field I maybe at times I'm part of the problem but I think we can put this very kind of like clinical like you know we just analyze all of this stuff and forget that like its primary purpose is like it's a form of entertainment so yeah yeah

I mean, I say this all the time, but like I started the podcast specifically because I'd like I studied ancient Greece and mythology and then like didn't do anything with it for a while. And then I was like bored and sad one day and I was reading random things and came across

the story of Pasiphae conceiving the Minotaur. And I just remember looking at it again and being like, this is wild. Why do more people need to tell stories of Greek myth while emphasizing the fact that this is wild versus how they're so often covered where it's like, this is just the story from the ancient world. They were so brilliant and interesting, aren't they perfect? And meanwhile, you're like, they're wild.

The woman had a constructed fake cow created so that she could fuck a bull. Like, we need to talk about this as well. Yeah, exactly. Or like, you know, I mean, Lucian is a good example. The only Lucian I've read is the true history, which is one of the funniest, most absurd things that I've ever read in my life. Yeah.

It's just like nonsense. And I love the idea that ancient writers were just like writing nonsense because they felt like it and they thought it was funny. Like that's amazing. And it's not talked about enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

On the other side of it, one of the things I thought of while you were talking about all of these kinds of stories and sources and things is like one of the things that comes to me so often when I'm trying to tell queer stories from the ancient world is that like one, there are basically no explicit stories of women having sexual relationships, which I find fascinating and have my own like.

silly theories on that are not based in me having read anything. But also, every time there are stories of men having sexual relationships and romantic relationships with other men, they, like, always end badly. Like...

it's always a god with a mortal man and that mortal man always dies or like if they're not but a god then was just like the Achilles and Patroclus of it all and so I'm curious like if you've kind of looked at that or like what your thoughts are on how inherently tragic like 95% of those stories are yeah I think a lot of it comes from the idea that there was

a right and a wrong way to have relationships between men and so it kind of links back to this like idea of pederasty and that's like often like quite like a red flag idea like people get very like

Hurt up about it. But the idea was that in the ancient world, people were attracted to youth. And that's basically like the whole thing. They thought like a lot that people were ready for sex and relationships a lot younger than we might think. So like, but it's not just, and I think this is where people,

it can potentially be like a dangerous thing because people talk about how in pederasty, there's normally this older man that is called, give me one sec, because sometimes I mix up the... I had this conversation with somebody like two days ago. Yeah, great. The erastes is the older man, the eromenos is the younger man. And so the eromenos, the younger male, often is going to be around 15 years.

between like 14, 16, like before you can properly grow a beard. And then the Orestes is, you know, 30, a lot older. So obviously not in modern standards, not an okay relationship, like very bad, but also, um,

young girls were getting married at the same age. I was just going to say that because I feel like that is not mentioned enough in reference to it. Yeah, that occurs to me when you did it too. I think that is so important to compare because people then...

demonized this one relationship, which I absolutely think that it should be. I in no way think that this is at all okay. But it was also happening between men and girls as well. So this isn't just like a, oh, the gays were doing it this way. This is everyone of whichever, you know, sexuality, whatever,

preference these people may have had, they were all older men were having sex with young people. That's how it was across the board. And that was what was acceptable. But in a lot of these stories, what you see is

to these kind of tragic stories between men. It's often men that are a similar age or that seem to be a similar age that definitely don't necessarily fall into the Erastes, Eremenos,

categories, which is why like we have these records in the ancient world of people debating with Achilles and Patroclus. Okay. Who was the Erastes? Who was the Eremenos? You know, they're really trying to like nail it down because that is how a relationship with two men was supposed to work. One was supposed to be older. One was supposed to be younger in order for it to be like socially acceptable. So to me,

I think that is why a lot of these relationships, you know, you can see it between like Heracles and Hylus, or as you said, like Apollo with so many different men. All of the gods, like just with all of these different guys. And it always ends tragically. You never get like a happy ride off into the sunset moment. You know what though? Sorry. I, cause I, that's so true. Except, um,

Zeus and Ganymede do kind of come across as if it's a good thing. And that's specifically like the age gap. Yeah. So it's, yeah, that's interesting. That's one of the only ones. That is actually true. Yeah. And that's actually really interesting because Ganymede is a young Trojan prince. Like that is the whole thing that his youth has kind of emphasized that

And he doesn't die and everyone else dies. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that is really interesting. But like in a lot of these other ones where people do die, it seems to be that they're like kind of closer in age or that their ages aren't and their roles within the relationship aren't clearly marked out. And so potentially, I mean, this is like my interpretation, but I think that potentially these relationships aren't condoned

by society and so they have to end badly because you know society isn't ready for them to end well um you know it kind of like arguably just falls back into the kind of like bury your gaze trope that we even see on like tv now um but yeah I think that because they weren't necessarily

completely like socially acceptable because they didn't fall into this pattern that they were supposed to they weren't allowed to end well um yeah yeah that's really interesting i so i

around the time when this conversation will air, I also had one, which I only recorded two days ago. So it's like in my head and I'm thinking of when they're all coming out. But I talked to somebody about specifically Achilles and Patroclus, like primarily in relation to modern reception. But we talked a lot about that kind of Eromenos and Erastes situation, which is so interesting with them. And one thing that occurred to me in that conversation is also that like at first,

They, I mean, they don't fit it and they die tragically, like you were saying, but what's interesting about them is like the people who then debate that so heavily in later texts, like the thing, the big thing is,

That is sort of like glaring when we know it is that like when that story was being told, like the Iliad, when it was existing in its first iterations is probably at least based on our evidence for sure before the

the relationships of Erastus and Romanus and Paterasti broadly became popular. So it's kind of extra interesting on this other level that doesn't really explain... I mean, I think that they both had to die because that's just the way the Iliad had to go and it's kind of unrelated to their romantic relationship in a way that, yeah, Apollo and Hyacinthus, it's more related to what you're talking about. But

It is really interesting to kind of imagine them having all these debates and they're like so mad trying to figure out like who's the top and who's the bottom. Yeah. It's like, dudes, like this was before that was a thing. You can't understand it, which is why you're so annoyed trying to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like, "Hey, we came to play"? Did you tip your tiara to a Creole princess or get goofy officially? Step up like a boss and save the day? Or see what life's like under the tree of life? Did you? If you could, would you? When we come through, it's true magic, 'cause we came to play. Bring the magic at Walt Disney World Resort.

This is it. Your moment. This is your time to make your comeback with Purdue Global. When you come back with a Purdue Global degree, you create opportunity for yourself, your family, and your future. It's a degree you can be proud of. A degree that employers will trust and respect. Purdue Global offers working adults like you over 175 flexible degree programs to meet your specific career goals. These include associate, bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees and certificates.

Purdue Global degree programs range from nursing to business to communication and more. Whatever your interest, we have the degree that will move you forward.

You have the knowledge. You have the experience. Now it's time to get credit for the work you've done and earn the recognition you deserve with Purdue Global, Purdue's online university for working adults. You know you're worth it. We do too. So don't wait another second to get the degree that will take your career to the next level. Start your comeback today at purdueglobal.edu.

Have you made the switch to NYX? Millions of women have made the switch to the revolutionary period underwear from NYX. That's K-N-I-X. Period panties from NYX are like no other, making them the number one leak-proof underwear brand in North America.

They're comfy, stylish, and absorbent, perfect for period protection from your lightest to your heaviest days. They look, feel, and machine wash just like regular underwear, but feature incognito protection that has you covered. You can shop sizes from extra small to 4XL. Choose from all kinds of colors, prints, and different styles, from bikinis to boy shorts, thongs to high-rise. You've got to try NYX.

See why millions are ditching disposable, wasteful period products and have switched to NYX. Go to knix.com and get 15% off with promo code TRY15. That's nyx.com, promo code TRY15 for 15% off life-changing period underwear. That's knix.com. Yeah, but for them to be, you know...

this amazing work of literature, but you can't possibly have like a relationship between two men that doesn't fall into this like Erastes-Erimenov paradigm so quick. Like, how does it work? How can we make it fit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Oh, I love it. I mean, also it's all dark, but like that. But okay. So that one of the things I said earlier, and I would love to know if there's, if I'm wrong about this, but like the lack of, I,

to women who have romantic and sexual relationships in ancient Greece, I find or mythology specifically, but I'm like, if there's any from history to amazing, I want to hear it. But like, other than Sappho, but like,

And it's interesting to me because it like my little theory that, again, like I have not read anything about whether people have talked about this or debated it or what have you. But like my little theory is basically that like it's only a matter of who recorded the stories that we now have. And they probably especially because of their kind of obsession with penetration that comes along with the pederasty. Yeah.

that they basically just like if they were considering whether women were having sexual relationships with each other they didn't see whatever women did to each other as sexual and so they just like it's like it kind of went under the radar and I like to imagine that in a really good way of like women were kind of able to be more sexual with each other than they you know then we might think purely because nobody saw it as sex and so they didn't get into any trouble and like but then it also meant that it never made it into you know myths or anything like the closest we have obviously is like

stuff you can kind of imagine based on Artemis, but it's certainly never explicit. Yeah. Basically, all of this is kind of like really framed around male pleasure. Like, you know, one of the kind of things that people draw most often with Artemis is

her encounter with Callisto, right? And, you know, Jupiter or Zeus disguises himself as Artemis in order to assault Callisto, because that's the only way you can get close is by pretending to be Artemis. And so you can like draw from that, oh, well, then it would make sense if Artemis and Callisto would potentially sometimes have

like sex or have, they were in some form of like relationship. There was some attraction because that is how Zeus, Jupiter had to disguise himself. But even that is framed through,

male pleasure. Like it's a, it's an awful scene because of what we know is happening. Like it's obviously like incredibly tragic, but that is how people might like get that kind of like infer those things about the character of Artemis. Yeah. Even one of the places where you kind of see depictions of what might be

be women having sex with each other, double-ended dildos, things like that, is on this pottery that was normally used in symposiums. But again, these kind of banquets between men, where men are drunk and then have these, like, oh, look at these women having sex with each other. It's then not really about...

It's all, again, viewed through the lens of men. Like, oh, this is what they might have then found attractive to have seen. So yeah, like you said, I think it's all to do with where are the sources coming from? We don't actually hear, apart from people like Sappho, and we know there were other people like Gnosis, another female poet who said to Conall, done the same thing, but mainly like Sappho is the big one.

And even still people debate her. They debate whether or not she actually was like writing for somebody else about a woman or if she actually loved a woman. It's like, oh my God. Was she imagining how would I feel if I was a man? Like, just literally trying to write out any, any kind of like same sex attraction, anything. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah,

Yeah, ridiculous. The only other kind of thing that we do have is people like Juvenal that I mentioned before talking quite negatively about like certain women that he thought were like too masculine and they'll even like have sex with other women. Yeah, so he like talks quite negatively about, you know, like the tribus, which like in Latin like comes from like the word to rub.

And this idea of like these women that are like, oh, they're so like awful. They're even like having sex with other women now. And they like look so ugly and they look so manly. And again, like this is all coming from like a very, very male view who is like, oh, are these women going to be threats to me? These women aren't acting like women normally should. Yeah. Yeah. It's very limited. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting at all. Yeah. Like it's,

I mean, people ask me about those stories all the time. Like, why don't you talk about the stories between women? And I'm like, it's not my fault. Like, I would love to. Yeah. I promise I would. Like, it is entirely. I mean, it's all about like what it comes down to with like most of my podcast, which is like, it's all about the patriarchy. Yeah. But like, sure.

Yeah, I mean, there's a reason that we have the sources that we have. And it's not because that, like, you know, it's not because women weren't writing stuff down or women weren't telling stories or women weren't having these experiences. It's just that they don't survive for us today because of all the men who stood in their way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it's like the fact that we only have like, you know, we have so few of

Sappho's poems left, even though we know there were tons out there. But, you know, the men came in and they burnt them all and now we don't. Yeah, and even the ones we do have are like a fluke. Yeah. It's like, they're all like, we found this piece on like another thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's utterly fascinating. I also feel like I am...

just always required now to think about the time that I released an entire episode on Sappho and the island of Lesbos and then had somebody on Twitter tell me that I was using a slur and that I was no seriously did you miss that I missed that oh my god I yes it was a couple years ago and I did this entire episode dedicated to Sappho and the episode title was called the like lesbian from Lesbos was like in the title yeah

And I got a DM from somebody on Instagram and there, I don't know what their username was or whether it indicated anything about them, but like, I just remember really specifically that their image was a picture of Taylor Swift. And I think it just says a lot. Yeah. Basically they DM to me and they were like,

I was scrolling. I found your podcast and I was scrolling through the titles and that's key. They were, didn't say they were listening. Yeah. They were scrolling through the titles and they were like, and I saw that you use the word Lesbo. And I was, and they're like, and I just want you to know that that's a slur and you should take it down and never use it again. And then they were like,

If you're a lesbian, then I'm okay with it. But if you're not, then I'm not okay with it. And I just, I like, I mean, it was the funniest message I've ever gotten. And I like replied to them and I was like, that is the wildest thing I've ever read. Like,

The episode is about the origin of the word lesbian. Like you need to get a grip. Yeah. It's an Island. That's literally where the, I was like, I talk, I told you the history of the first official lesbian and you're mad at me. Cause I use the name of an Island. You read the titles of the podcast. Exactly. You didn't listen. I can tell you that. Anyway, the funny part was that I tweeted just a screenshot of,

of like the DM and some caption was something like, this is the wildest thing I've ever read. I was talking about Sappho and it was like my most viral tweet ever. And also the number of people who like still got mad at me. Or then I had the people who were like, it's pronounced Les Voss. And I was like, I know it is in modern Greek. It's fine. Like, just let's not, that's not the point. Like that's not the purpose of what's happening anyway. Yeah.

it was an incredible experience and I think about it every single time that I think about Sappho now. It's the funniest thing that's ever happened. But then they're actually really nice and they replied like, oh, thank you for teaching me. And I was like, maybe you should have just like even clicked to the description which literally says this episode is about Sappho, the origin of the word lesbian from the island of Lesbos. Like I made it really clear. Yeah. Like thank you for teaching me. Interestingly, what a podcast can actually do if you actually press play and you actually listen is it could actually teach you just itself. Or

literally Google one single thing before you think I'm using a slur. And then of course I had a lot of lesbians in my comments being like, I don't think that's a slur. Is that a slur? It was generally a great experience. Anyway, I don't know how we got there talking about Sappho, but it is so fascinating, this kind of complete lack of

of women's stories. And yeah, I mean, I think my like sort of happier way of seeing it is just the idea that they were all have been really sexually satisfied with each other at all times, but because they weren't necessarily using traditional modes of penetration, the men just like, didn't see it as sex and it never got written down or if it did, it just got lost because of, you know, Christian monks later. Yeah.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Okay, I mean, God's topics. Everything exists. But I do want to hear more about what you... Because you talked a little bit about Harry Styles' Dionysus last time. Tell me what you've kind of studied when it comes to Lil Nas X and queerness and classics and whatever. So I'm just absolutely... I'm just obsessed with Lil Nas X at the moment. I'll be in that top 0.1% forever. But yeah, so...

Lona's X it's specifically his music video I don't know if you watched the Montero Call Me By Your Name music video I did back when it came out yeah but it's been a while so this music video unbelievably amazing as everything that Lona's X does is that it basically the video itself is like

has a lot of ties with the ancient world, with antiquity. And it kind of like really emphasizes that at one point you see this inscription on a tree, which is from Plato's Symposium. And...

I don't know if you covered Plato's Symposium in other episodes. I did really early on and I think I did like a really, now I look back and I'm like, that was not a very good job. There's so much more to say. So actually it's funny you say that because I'm going to cover it again in better detail.

Around the same month, this is coming out. So maybe this will line up really well. Well, yeah, so it's specifically referring to this part where Plato has this character Aristophanes say, oh, humans originally were like made of two things.

two parts and then they were they were either like male male male female or female female and then zeus feared their power split them down the middle and now we all search for our original half and that's like where soulmates where our soulmates are that's how why we have soulmates but it's also kind of like this early explanation of that's why some men are attracted to other men that's why some women are attracted to other women and that's why

Some men are attracted to women. Some women are attracted to men. So it's kind of like this really early explanation mythology behind why soulmates exist for them and why people are attracted to different people. So yeah, there's this quote in ancient Greek written on a tree and it's referencing that.

such like a deep cut too like there's a really really specific type of person who is going to get that yeah exactly yeah yeah because it's not even like it's like written in english but yeah like it's actually in get it ancient greek no i literally paused it got out my like ancient greek dictionary and was like trying to um piece enough together that i could be like oh plato's sublime okay um

Yeah, so it's a very niche reference. And then right at the end of the video, this scene where he gives a lap dance to the devil. If you can tear your eyes away from the spectacle, you can see that there's this Latin inscription in front, which says, again, it's in Latin, but the translation is, they condemn what they do not understand.

So like super meaningful, absolutely amazing. But yeah, so you have right at the start, right at the end, these ancient Greek and Latin texts that kind of just emphasize the connection with antiquity and the ancient world. And yeah, you get this from the start, you go through a kind of ruined landscape where there's this broken down like Doric temple and there's

Doric temple is this style of temple that in ancient Rome particularly becomes like associated with masculinity oh I didn't know that

just for it just like straight blocky and they're like okay so that's male yeah yeah and then the curvy one is female um because everything has to be male or female here um but yeah so it becomes associated with masculinity and as well you have these like this broken down like aqueduct which again in kind of like roman thought in the kind of politics of

expanding their empire and conquering they were like okay we'll build these viaducts, transport water to where it was dry before and in that way we have conquered nature and we are above nature and so then

Lil Nas X comes in and these symbols of masculinity and like conquest and power are all like crumbling and decaying. It's kind of like this early idea of

what the music video is going to be and like this is going to be this kind of disruption of traditional masculinity and power and he just like moves on through to this like scene where he's seated looking very femme he's got like long pink hair he's got long hair pink guitar and um then there's this big like snake coming out from behind and immediately that's kind of like

biblical Eve serpent temptation kind of thing. But also like Apollo is often associated in antiquity with the snake. And then it starts like chasing Lil Nas X and he's running past this like figure made of stone, like this kind of half into a tree, which is like, to me, very symbolic of like Daphne who, you know, Apollo was turned into this tree to try and escape from.

Apollo and faces emerge from these purple flowers that look like hyacinths. And then essentially this is all kind of linked in. You have this like predator chasing, which I would argue Apollo pretty much always characterized as a predator, just an awful shitty God, like the worst predator.

Just truly awful. Poseidon is sometimes... Well, I stand by Poseidon as the absolute worst of the Olympians, but Apollo is really up there. The close second. The Theseus of the gods, if you will. Just the shittiest. Yeah. And yeah, and then...

You see Lil Nas X, he goes down into this kind of amphitheater and he's in this chained, like chained up. He's got this kind of like faux fur pink, like kind of cape across him that looks to me very kind of Hercules-esque. Even the hold, which the chains are on is like in purple.

weight lifting is like the Hercules kind of like hold yeah I think it's in an old movie I remember seeing people talking about it when that video came out yeah it's like yeah in an old movie about Hercules is he's like specifically standing just like exactly and Hercules is so seen as this kind of like

especially now we kind of look at him as this kind of heroic ideal. But he's also, in ancient texts, there's a lot to do with him kind of subverting gender norms. In one of his labours, he famously goes to the Queen of the Amazons and has to wear her clothes and act like a woman while she wears...

his and then he has this love of hylus which obviously ends tragically as all of these stories do but so yeah so he is hylus is taken by women that feels like yeah kind of means something too that's interesting sorry that just occurred to me no definitely yeah no i definitely think there's something there and my favorite kind of aspect of the video is the

where you see Lil Nas X go from his kind of like chained Hercules, Heracles, however you want to call him. He tries to go up to ascend to the heavens and he's like cut down, has the very famous like pole dance scene where he's like spiraling down, amazing, down into hell. And it forms what we know in ancient stories as the catabasis or the kind of descent into the underworld scene.

And we see it in like all of these stories of heroes, you know, Aeneas, Odysseus, like Heracles. Yeah, all of these characters have heroes

I don't actually know whether Heracles does. I don't think, I don't think Theseus definitely does. Theseus definitely does. But, okay, so. He does it badly. In the Leagues of Heroes, like. Oh no, of course Heracles does, because he goes and gets Cerberus. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Okay, just doubted myself, but no. No, so did I immediately. I was like, wait a second. Very obvious. I don't remember that in the Disney movie, but no, he does that too, in the Disney movie as well. He really does it in the Disney movie. He really does. Yeah, even more. Yeah.

Yeah, so it effectively like kind of places Lil Nas X in the ranks of these heroes and all of their kind of descents into the underworld form this massive part of their like narrative arc. And I think that's especially important with when we look at, okay, how is classics used now? And disappointingly, a lot of the time that we see classics used in like kind of

modern politics and culture is it's been really latched onto by white supremacists, right? Who see the ancient world as like that they are the inheritors of ancient Greece and ancient Rome. And they see this as this kind of like idealized white society, which it absolutely categorically wasn't like they are a hundred percent wrong and

But they see this and like it's when you see them with their like Molon Labe placards. And it's like all of this kind of like referencing to the ancient world, which on a side note, the stupidest thing. Like, why are you referencing ancient Sparta? Like Persia did beat them. Thank you. I say this all the time. Because Molon Labe means come and take them. And it's like Persia did. And they did.

Persia did. They took them. Like, they took them. I mean, I don't think any of these people with the placards are particularly keen on, you know, actual facts here. I think we can all agree that they are ridiculous. And anyway, yeah, that always goes for me. Yeah, same. But yeah, so, and especially Hercules or Heracles is often like,

these white supremacist websites, like really, really love him, really love all these heroes. So I think it is like massive and so important and incredible to see this like black artist, this black man who has been raised to the ranks of a hero, like a hero alongside Odysseus, Aeneas, like all of these ancient heroic figures. He's been raised alongside them and he completes his heroic narrative. So he fights the devil,

gives him this lap dance, amazing, then kills him, takes his crown, and then gets the wings that he would have needed at the start to ascend to heaven. So he's completely completed this heroic narrative, this katabasis, and

has brought himself into the ranks of like the Homeric hero, the ancient hero. And I think it's this like beautiful kind of reclaiming of antiquity from the hands of white supremacists who hold up these heroes, these kind of like pillars of like what they think is this like great, like white heterosexual heroism.

toxic masculine ideal and then Lil Nas X comes in with this like beautiful performance of like femininity black excellence black beauty and

like comes in with all of this and then puts himself alongside these heroes I think it's unbelievable it's so powerful works on so many levels and it just really challenges this toxic heteronormative white idea of what a man should be and I think it's it's just beautiful it's amazingly yeah

Yeah, it challenges that and it so explicitly challenges those those everything that you're just talking about this like white hetero narrative when it comes to ancient Greece and and like especially when it comes to like or ancient Greece and Rome I should say but when it comes to like classics broadly to like there's all these.

really, and I don't know enough about it. And so I won't pretend like I do, but I know that like, there's a real distinct lack of, of specifically black people and broadly, more broadly people of color who are like studying the ancient world and, and not for any lack of interest, I imagine, but more like all of the different systemic reasons. Yeah. Um,

And so like, it's kind of, it's nice on that level too, of having that, like, yeah, a black man putting himself in the classical world, which is like, absolutely. He would have had a place there, but like the modern world sees that he doesn't. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's so lovely. Also just sounds like an amazing video and I'm going to watch it again. Yeah, absolutely. You should. I, so I presented on this, at this, the annual meeting of,

post-graduates um in ancient history in malta and i presented on this and so i had to watch the video i would say i've contributed at least a thousand of the views that are on there i was going frame by frame and i still love it and it's still like just as amazing to me as it was that's wonderful yeah but yeah i think it's incredible and also very needed because like

I was trying to think, I can't remember what her account name is. I feel like on Twitter it's maybe like artistfully or something. Oh yeah, Britney. Yeah, Britney, right, who does the, and we've just seen again, she did like an amazing depiction of Athena who happened to be black and has got a massive amount of racist backlash over it. And it just shows that like how important it is to reclaim racism

classics back from this disgusting white supremacist narrative that has come along. And yeah, it's, you can see as well because like we had the Lil Nas X video and then I think it was just like months later, it wasn't a long time later than Lizzo did her Rumours video and again that drew really heavily from antiquity. And so I think we're seeing this really like beautiful pattern of like black artists and

like reclaiming this culture that has been used against them in a lot of ways. And, you know, people used ancient history to justify all sorts of like awful things, slavery, racism. It's been used in so many ways against black people, against people of color more broadly, against so many people. And so I think that it is,

powerful and amazing and so valuable and needed to see this kind of reclamation that we're seeing at the moment.

yeah it's really wonderful to watch and I think that that more positive note because I had another thing to add but we're going to end it on the positive note because that's absolutely fascinating and I just love it and I loved hearing about I also love how in detail you can describe that music video just like I'm assuming I could do frame by frame from memory at this point I'm very impressed I close my eyes at night and I just see it

Not so bad. That seems like a fine way to live. For sure. Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much.

Do you want to tell my listeners? Oh, God. Yeah. I'm so happy to have you back. I'm so glad you asked. Do you want to tell my listeners where they can like read more from you or follow for whatever you want or just literally anything and everything? Yes. So I am most active on Twitter, which my Twitter is just queer classicist. But then also I have a website called

thequeerclassicist.com which has taken a back seat in the last few months because I've had a lot of conferences and papers that I've been writing but it is everything that I've needed to do has now been done and so it's now at the front of my attention and so there will be like more coming up there but everything is shared on Twitter. Twitter is

the place I spend way too much of my time and so everything new that I'm doing goes on Twitter first so yeah I'd say that's the best way to find out more yeah great and I will link to everything in the episode's description too so everyone can click and find it easily nice um yeah

thank you for doing this. This was so much fun and so fascinating and it's so lovely to talk to you about all these wild and so entertaining and important topics. Yes, it's been so lovely talking to you too. It's been great. Won't leave it. Won't leave it two years before our next chat. Yeah, exactly. Good.

Oh, how fun. I love talking to you until again. We talked about roads because I'm going to roads. I think I put that off mic, but I'm so excited. And now it's all I can think about. And gods, I just loved learning the intricacies of these, just these more specifically academic ways of approaching the subject.

It's interesting, even if it isn't necessarily how I go about it on the podcast. It's so valuable anyway for me to know, for me to share. Plus, God, listening to Yentl describe basically every second of that Lil Nas X video

madness incredible i was enthralled like so fucking fun all of it so as always a huge thank you to yentl for joining me and make sure to follow her on twitter or check out her queer classicist website for more i have linked to both as always uh last time she and i talked about a dionysian harry styles too and this time lil nas x and queer theory

you get it all and if you haven't listened to that last episode with her oh my god please check it out because Harry Styles is Dionysus and

Oh, gods, did I make a, I made a real admission off mic when it comes to Harry Styles, too. I have listened to a lot in the past year. Let's Talk About Myths, baby, is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. Honestly, Michaela does so many things. She edited this episode. She's been editing so many conversation episodes so that I don't lose my mind and I love her to the ends of the earth for it.

Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron. Where you'll get bonus episodes and more, just visit patreon.com or click the link in this episode's description. I am Liv and gods do I love this shit.

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an

eye on what your kids are spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight risk-free today at greenlight.com slash iHeart.

This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Toyota has been building a legacy of excellence for years, from developing hybrid technology to upping the standards of safety and efficiency. Toyota is always innovating, always making progress. And with a superior lineup of in-stock SUVs, including the adventure-ready RAV4 and capable, affordable Corolla Cross, you can experience the legacy of Toyota for yourself. Visit

buyatoyota.com, the official website for deals to find out more. Toyota, let's go places. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Upgrade the whole team at lenovo.com. Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors, so you can work, create, and boost productivity all on one device.

Win the tech search for business PCs at Lenovo.com.