Toxic Boyfriends of Greek Mythology (feat. Historical Homos)
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Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, here with something a little different. Okay, so I teamed up with the fine people at Historical Homos to do an episode about, yes, you guessed it, Historical Homos, but specifically toxic boyfriends of Greek mythology. I spoke with Bash for this podcast, and I'm

And yeah, oh my god, we had so much fun. So basically, it's an episode that is branded as historical homos, but that was just because Bash was keen to do all the work for it. And I was like, I would love to just play that whole episode. But it is...

between the two of us. It's full-blown collaboration where we dive deep into these toxic boyfriends. So in some cases, there are characters I've talked about before, but we are getting to like an entirely different level because queer stories have existed always and fuck if they aren't the most fun and interesting part of

This is Toxic Boyfriends of Greek Mythology, featuring the historical homos podcast.

Welcome back to another installment of our award-seeking series, Toxic Boyfriends of Greek Mythology. Now, if you're a fan of Greek mythology, you probably know that the gods and goddesses love to act like humans. They laugh, they play sports, they have dinner parties, they love, they fuck, they fight. But one of their chief pastimes is, how do I put this, killings.

Killing us? Yes, us mortals, humans. We should be very scared if a god shows up on Earth, because chances are someone's going to get pregnant or dead real soon. Or both. And this pattern seems to hold when it comes to the gay Greek myths. Zeus, Apollo, Poseidon, Heracles, they can't seem to keep any of their younger boyfriends alive. Why is this?

You could argue that death makes for a tidy end to any story. Nothing more final than a one-way ticket across the river Styx.

But Greek myths took shape over hundreds of years. They were told and retold not just because they were good stories, but because they told the ancients something deeper about themselves. Is it possible that bottoms always die in Greek mythology to teach us something? To make us feel something? What's going on narratively, psychologically, historically, erotically, when gods and heroes love their beloveds, their eromenoi in the ancient Greek, a

A little too roughly. It's time we get to the bottom of all of these crucial, world-changing questions. So straff into your sluttiest sandals and absolutely nothing else. We are raw-dogging it, ancient Greek city style today. Because it's time to dive in. And the Aegean seawater is, ooh, yes, let me just dip a little toe. Human temperature. Human temperature.

So let's go back in time and take another read right through. Celebrate ourselves tonight and cover all the things that's new. Cause if you think you're with historical homies... I am so thrilled to introduce to your ear holes Liv Albert, who is the host of Let's Talk About Myths, baby.

resident Greek and Roman mythology nerd. Actually, all mythology nerd, I feel like. You straddle it all. Liv, first of all, thank you so much for being here. Who are you? What's inspiring you right now? Who am I? I am Liv.

I am deeply obsessed with Greek mythology to a point where some of the stuff that lives in my head, I don't even understand it anymore. And I consciously work to make Greek myth not my entire personality, but I'm failing at it. Yeah.

I would say that that's not coming through yet. Great, great. Well, and then to just really continue on with that vibe, what's inspiring me right now is that I am like knee deep in Odyssey research because I'm writing a children's retelling of the Odyssey. Yeah.

And that is consuming my entire life at this stage. Yes. Wow. What an exciting project. It's truly the most, one of the most exciting things that's happened to me in ages. And it's going to be so good and nerdy and honest and weird. Yeah. Yeah.

Coming next year. I love that. Move over, Stephen Fry. Dreams. That's awesome. That's so cool. And we need all of that today because we are delving back into the world of the toxic boyfriends of Greek mythology. Hell yeah. So this was the first episode that we ever did on this podcast. We did an episode all about Zeus and Ganymede, famously...

pretty toxic in the sense that, you know, being stolen from your family is not a great way to start a relationship. So check out that episode if you want more. But we also talked about the toxic boyfriends of the Roman Empire, Hadrian and Antonus, who are probably known to every gay worth his salt for being kind of the poster boys of homosexuality in the Roman Empire. To

To go back to our Greek myth boys, however, what I've always been interested in are the other kind of smaller stories that you hear. The minor tales, Heracles and Hylus, Apollo and Hyacinth, Pelops and Poseidon. Achilles and Patroclus is probably a big one now because, well, it was a big one in the ancient world as well. It was.

Yeah, but it's even bigger because of Lady Madeline Miller's service as well. So I think we need to dive into those stories a little bit deeper and ask what is going on. And one thing that I've noticed that tends to happen in all of them is that the younger one, the bottom, if you will, in modern parlance, tends to die.

And, you know, Apollo and Hyacinth, spoiler alert, he dies. Hyacinth dies. Achilles and Patroclus, they both die. Heracles and Hylus, Hylus dies. What is going on? Why so much death? Now, little content warning, as always, when we're talking about the ancient world of homosexuality. And this is what's interesting about these Greek myths is that they tend to be modeling different versions of homosexuality.

homosexuality or same-sex desire between men, right? Or males. So Zeus and Ganymede is kind of like the traditional image of the pederastic relationship. And

And even the ancients themselves talked about that story of Zeus and Ganymede as potentially an inappropriate way to excuse pederasty, right? So there was some anxiety around that. And Heracles and Hylus, who we're going to talk about, similar, but there's a different emphasis in the story. It's more about, I think, education and then having to let go of that younger lover. And then as they get older...

Apollo and Hyacinth, Apollo is famously not an adult man, right? Like he is kind of the eternal ephebe, which is the Greek word for the sort of in-between zone when you're like 18 to 20, early 20s. So and he's in love with a younger boy. So that's a different type of pederasty that they're kind of modeling there of the young man and the adolescent.

And then Achilles and Patroclus, what's being modeled there is a form of really intense, passionate, erotic devotion, right? That the Greeks believed existed between men at war and was actually helpful in some senses for men at war, right? Because it made you more loyal to one another. And indeed, Achilles and Patroclus die for one another.

So this is what we're going to be talking about today. Maybe I spoiler alerted. Maybe I should have spoiler alerted all of that. Yeah, we can end the episode now. It's all we've done. I mean, I have so much to say. Yeah. Okay, good. You know, that's it. I'm just revving you up right now, Liv.

But yeah, I do want to, you know, we just want to acknowledge we are talking about pederasty. It is a different type of homosexuality. I mean, mostly we're talking about pederasty. It is a different type of brand flavor of homosexuality than the modern term gay typically connotes.

But I would ask our listeners to remember that this was very much a socially approved institution back in the ancient world. It was a different kind of love, probably, than we're used to understanding. It was a combination of romance, of sex, well, erotic desire, of mentorship. So

we can't map our modern ideas onto it easily. Similarly, can I just add, like I do, I agree with all of that to a degree, but I think it's also important to reference that it wasn't

necessarily accepted all the way around as being like always an okay thing. And there's like, there's a lot of murky questionability on in terms of like consent and stuff. Like I think it's really interesting to talk about, but yeah, it's hard to, it's, it's also important not to map it onto modern homosexuality because there's also this added, like there's like a bit of a question of coercion and stuff like that, that,

Adds a weird level. Yeah. And also, you know, often what we're talking about is like the Athenian version of this institution. It existed everywhere in different ways and with different emphases. Right. Yeah. It was different. They had different words for the lover and the beloved institution.

I think one of them is one of them I always remember is Espnelos, which means the inspirer. That was the word instead of the lover. So and that was much more of an emphasis on I think that's at Sparta that that's what they call it. And that's much there's much more of an emphasis on the mentorship and educational function of pederasty.

But yes, I take your point. At the same time, I mean, you know, the definition of consent, even the definition of age, right, relative age shifts historically. So these things are all socially constructed and we have to I think it's easier for us to come at it from a place of trying to understand it on the Greek terms rather than just being like rather than writing it off as like this is creepy.

Yeah. It's a little in between. It's not to say it isn't creepy. No. And today it would be very creepy. But back then it was not always creepy. And also one thing, it's important to also remember because people love to like

harp on the issue of age when it comes to pederasty like how young the boys could have been but what they often don't include alongside that is that the girls were marrying at the same age so it wasn't like you yeah it was like it it was equal ick you know in terms of how we see it today like age-wise it wasn't like everyone is terrible please yeah equal opportunity ick

It was a problem all around. Yeah, it definitely wasn't a gay problem. It was a like power dynamic exploitation problem. Yeah. So I think that's something that's really important to keep in mind is that like this is just such a different world. And the last thing I'll say about pederasty and something that I think is always interesting just on that last point is that a lot of these myths were created for a society that was made out of really tightly knit city states, right? That are essentially little like

corporations, like many corporations governing themselves, going to war with one another. Like it's very tiny, tiny, tiny kingdoms. Pederasty to my mind is a way of building ties between men in these societies. Right. So if you're a tiny little society, that's always at war and has to govern itself the right way, you have to figure out how to make ties between

To as many people as possible in the community. So I think that's something to keep in mind also, like one way of doing that was obviously marriage. I was going to say, yeah, in that same way that marriage fits into that. Yeah, exactly. But this was another added layer. And the fact that pederasty was primarily an aristocratic concept institution, even though people from other classes were brought into it.

kind of gives you a hint that it was believed to have that function as well. They're not educating younger boys in these relationships for their health. Like it's because they need smart young men who are going to lead the city in the next generation, you know? So I think that's an interesting thing to keep in mind of like, why do people need this institution? It serves a sociological political function as well.

But let's get to the stories because that's why we're here. That's the fun part. So for each of the celebrity couples that I told you the stories of already kind of in brief, we're going to go through them. We're going to get to the death of the bottom or the beloved, however you prefer to say it, and ask, what the fuck is going on here? Act one, Heracles and Hylus are scared of girls.

So let's begin with, and I say Heracles on this podcast. You are damn right. Not Hercules. I'm not using no fucking Romanized spellings. I'm not using Roman names. We all know Heracles as Hercules. We all hopefully know the Disney film, which... Zero to hero, just like that. Every time I say the word Hercules, someone in my brain says, honey, you mean Hunkules. Yeah.

I just can never get that out of my brain. But Heracles is not the bumbling, gangly teenager of the Disney film in the ancient imagination. Even though, love that movie, it is one of the best movies ever written. I maintain, sorry, this is maybe not the time, but I say it at every possible opportunity. I maintain, and I have said this to some of the top scholars in the field, Disney's Hercules is the most mythologically accurate movie

piece of reception we have on film. Fucking obsessed with that. And I hope you've done an episode on that because I want to hear the full rant. You know what? I should do a full discussion. I haven't entirely and now I simply must. So thank you. Yeah. Invite me on that, please. So to the ancient Greeks, like I remember when I first read in college a play where Heracles features, my professor described him as like the Don Juan of the Greek kind of like demigods. Like he is almost

all man because he beds everyone he meets he's like always having sex both genders he's strong he fucks he eats like he is just the he wears girls clothes sometimes oh i guess you're going for the masculine side sorry no no but he's he's so he's so masked that he can wear girls clothes and no one looks twice no but i mean like he is the preeminent

model of maleness in the Greek mythological imagination in the same way that, you know, like Zeus kind of epitomizes a certain type of like male stature. Like Heracles is the guy who can fight, who can fuck, who can do it all. So in this story, what happens is he falls in love with this younger kid, teaches him everything he knows, and then they go away together.

And basically, we meet Heracles and his younger love, Hylus, in a not great situation where he's basically being taken as a hostage from his family. So Heracles, as he frequently does, is roaming around and meets a king who he doesn't like named Theodemus.

And he's kind of like a country bumpkin, you know, backwoods king. Says something catty that Heracles doesn't like. Heracles kills the shit out of him and takes his son in addition on as an apprentice. Except Heracles is very smitten with the young, beautiful Hylus. TBC on what Hylus thinks of being abducted by his father's murderer.

Maybe didn't love having to be the errand boy for some psychotic stranger. But he's hot. But he's hot. Like, that's the thing. I do often think of the Heracles statue in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which is just like...

Thick. Thick with two Cs. Rippling and thick. I think of the Farnese in Naples, which where his... Like, I have a close-up of his ass. Let me pull it up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think Farnese is like peak, like big...

big, hot Hercules. This is big, hunky Zadi. This is the kind of chaotic Zadi energy that I think Heracles was bringing to the tale of Hylas. So for whatever, you know, Hylas doesn't have much of a choice. They go on together. He can't help but be impressed by this paragon of male strength and skill. You know, Heracles knows how to do everything. He's great with the bow and arrow. He's great with

the club. He's great with everything he touches. And he gladly teaches Hylas everything that he knows, which is very much the role of the erastes, of the older lover in the pederastic relationship. You're meant to kind of guide them on becoming a man. And he's eventually very chuffed to see the young Hylas grow into a fine young man. And that is when Heracles and Hylas are

called along with every other major hero at the time in Greece to voyage with Jason on the Argo in search of the golden fleece. So, so Hylus has grown up a lot, but he's still in the flower of youth as the Greeks loves love to say, and they arrive in Missia in Northern Turkey and

They've got to rest for a while. So they find a beautiful field, take out the couches for a feast. And then Hylas runs off to get Heracles his water for the evening because twinks have to do everything. Unfortunately for Hylas, he stumbles upon a trio. Sometimes it's one nymph. Sometimes it's a trio dancing by the spring. And they are immediately infatuated with him because he's hot.

And so he dips his pitcher into the stream to get some water for Zadie. He dips his pitcher into the stream. Yeah, close reading analysis of that coming up. The nymphs reach out because they're so obsessed with him and pull him in. And Hylas is terrified and calls out to Heracles as loud as his little gay voice can carry. But he is in fact underwater and smothered in nymphs, river nymphs. So it all gets muffled.

Eventually, a few hours pass. Heracles is like, where's my fucking water and grabs his weapons, starts roving around, starts going a little insane looking for him. So he calls for him over and over, but he can't hear Hylas's cries because let's just be clear, Hylas has gone to live with the nymphs means he is now drowned and dead.

So Heracles goes crazy, wandering around, wandering around. And he actually misses the boat to get back onto the Argo to go sail for the Golden Fleece. Eventually, in this version, Hylus appears to him in a dream and says, don't worry, I'm actually kind of loving living with the ladies in the stream. And so Heracles is finally freed from his, you know, erotic madness and goes on his merry way. What does it all mean?

First reactions, Liv. I mean, Hylus is an interesting one because we really get a sense of Heracles' devotion, which I think is like kind of lacking from a lot of the other stories. I think it represents the most sort of obvious Athenian devotion.

pederastic relationship where like you say like he's like kind of got Hylas to that point in the mentorship where that relationship finds its you know supposedly natural end and he's supposed to just get over it and maybe he's an example of like how hard that sometimes was for you know either side in it

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Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com. But it's interesting too, because we don't have particularly ancient versions of that story in comparison to some of the others. I was just going to say, this is very much taken from a poem written by a third century BC poet named Theocritus, who's kind of

I mean, he writes a lot about pederasty. This is the 13th idyll where he tells the story of Hylus. And what's interesting is that it gets picked up by later writers in the Roman Empire. Propertius writes about Hylus and basically has a line in one of his poems where he's advising one of his friends on a relationship with a younger boy or adolescent or whatever. And he's like,

don't entrust that beautiful high list of yours to the nymphs. And basically what he's saying is like, you have to be careful about letting these young men around women, A, because young men are horny, and B, because I think what's also going on here is that there's like a fear of feminine sexuality, as there so often is in the ancient world. No! That's not like half my career at this point. Yes!

Yeah. Pointing that out is my day job. The women, the nymphs in this story are very much given that kind of sexual agency of like they want Hylas and they take him. But I think that's it's a really interesting kind of it's sort of smacks to me of the modern nymphs.

misogyny that we sometimes get from gay men, you know, of like, stay away from women. They're only, they're pulling focus. You know, there is this anxiety. I mean, we know also from other ancient sources that homosexual love and sex was very much compared to heterosexual love and, and sex with many writers writing in favor of pedophilia.

Because they were misogynist, because they thought that the love between men was like, you know, more sublime or whatever the fuck, whatever nonsense. So I also see that in this. I see a sort of like reflection of that contemporary. There's the sort of longstanding anxiety, I think, in this tradition of pederasty.

around, okay, these boys have to grow up at some stage. And that typically means going and getting married to a woman eventually. And so it's like, what do we do with that? These relationships have a built-in expiration date effectively. And then there's the other kind of more contemporary reflection, contemporary in their time of like this,

weird misogyny where they're basically afraid of female sexuality impinging on their relationships. It's hard to untie that from because, I mean, that's so much of Greek myth, right? Like, I mean, I don't want to say 90% is probably more than 90%. But let's be fair. So, so much of Greek myth revolves around fear of women's sexuality. And the

of like the reproductive power of a uterus as compared to men. And so it's really interesting to then see how that clashes with how they felt about same gender relationships, generally pederasty, but also just the broad idea of, of men loving other men. Like,

It's an interesting way that that clashes because, I mean, they were very afraid of women being sexually free regardless of the situation. And I think those nymphs really specifically, but the stories of nymphs more broadly too, like, I mean, I just can't unsee recently I've done, well, not recently, but over the last year, I did some digging into things that I just truly cannot unsee about this fear that the men had. And I say men in that case in that way of like,

the patriarchal powers at like they feared women and so you can kind of pick that out out of so many stories and having this one where heracles who is like so famously manly but also so famously fertile like the man has so many children and you know so having that story where he

Has his lover stolen by a woman? You know, there's a lot kind of happening there, I think, in terms of like, yeah, just how, what kind of part of the ancient Greek psyches we can dig out from a story like that. And I loved what you said also about like...

If you read this story, I think through ancient Greek eyes, it is kind of touching as well, how driven to madness Heracles is. I mean, the flip side of that is that, and this is a theme that we'll see in our next story, in both of our next stories, actually, is that

Eros is dangerous in the Greek imagination. In modern life, love is the best thing that can happen to you. In the ancient world, Eros is a tricky subject because while it can be the inspirer of a love of the good and the beautiful in Plato, for example...

And it can, you know, create these beautiful relationships. It also drives you mad. It drives you to do completely irrational things. And for the Greek man, for the Greek male, especially being in control of your rational self is what makes you a man. It's what makes you a Greek. So I also couldn't see like I see the touching side of it. And then I also see the kind of warning side of it of like, look at how Heracles is acting a fool running around, you know, driven to this level of madness.

over this young boy. I think we have to ask our ancient audiences meant to hear that and be like,

Is that normal? Methinks you might be a little too obsessed, me lord. Story of Heracles though, too, because it's like... Yeah, he does that a lot. Yeah, like this is not the only time that he is driven to madness in relation to a relationship, really. I think it's also interesting to think about the ways, like just the way you said Eros is dangerous. In that way, we mean Eros, the concept of love, but also Eros, the divinity, and Aphrodite is the divinity associated with that. But...

you know, it's kind of hard to wrap your head around how they understood this type of thing because love was something that was both natural and inflicted by the gods. But the implication there is actually that like all forms of love are divine, like

Like divinely inspired, good or bad. And I think it's interesting to kind of look at how they just understood those kinds of emotions. Like there is this element that you do control yourself, but simultaneously there is this element that the gods control it.

Yeah, no, that's such an interesting point. We need to keep that in mind, especially as we go on to this next one, because this is really another interesting story where we're sort of, I think, meant to be asking ourselves, is all this love always a good thing? Act two, Apollo and Hyacinth, or A Tale of Two Tops. Or a Frisbee tragedy, as I tell it in my episode.

Gay Frisbee gone wrong. So Apollo famously the god of prophecy music. Then this is what's confusing. He's the god of lots of great things. He's the god of prophecy, the god of music, healing, light. And we meet him kind of just, you know, minding his business for once doing God stuff at one of his shrines when he suddenly comes across this monster.

the most beautiful youth the world has ever seen. And just spoiler alert, this is like the 12th time that a god has come across the most beautiful youth in the world. So the youth happens to be in Sparta and he's just hanging out there minding his business. Apollo starts making inquiries. It turns out that the hottie's name is Hyacinth or Hyakynthos as it would be in Greek.

And he is the son of the Spartan king. Surprise. If you're hot, you're also rich and noble. So, oh, and the other thing about Hyacinth is he happens to be taken. He's already the beloved of a local renowned musician named Thamaris, which Apollo obviously thinks is a giant joke, given that he is literally the god of music.

So in most toxically gay fashion, Apollo sabotages Themis by reporting to the nine biggest divas in all of Greece, the muses, that Themis has been talking smack about them, saying he can sing and strum the lyre better than any of them. Now, because this is Greek mythology, they dream up a completely benign punishment for Themis, which is to strike him dumb and blind and erase all memory of music from his brain.

cool Apollo's a dick this is what I'm saying Apollo is such a dick Apollo is terrible

And what's ironic for Apollo in this story is that he then has to deal with yet another suitor. This time it's another god, the West Wind, Zephyrus, who challenges Apollo to a contest for the beautiful boy Hyacinth. Finally, the day of the contest comes. Zephyrus gets up, does something nifty with the wind and Hyacinth is like, not bad.

Then Apollo takes out his bow and arrow, famous for being the archer, and shoots an arrow that sings through the air. So he's really combining his specialties here. And it's like musical arrows. Hyacinth's panties drop at this. Obviously, there's nothing like a guy who's into music and who is also a god.

And so Apollo and Hyacinth spend all their time together. The god teaches Hyacinth all these things that boys need to know, like hunting and gymnastics and music. And actually, that's kind of it. That's all that a Greek boy needs to know. Hunting, gymnastics, and music. You're good. Wrestling. Toss in some wrestling. We love naked wrestling. Toss in some wrestling. Yeah. We love naked wrestling. And assorted track and field. Assorted track and field. As we'll see. Naked.

Because one day they decide to have a friendly naked game of discus, i.e. ancient metal frisbee. So they strip down, they lube their bodies up in olive oil to throw a metal disc around. Not really sure how being slathered in oil is conducive to throwing and catching a metal disc. And let's just...

The clarify here that like this is not this detail, not just myth. This is just how they competed in any athletic games. And I think it's important that people understand that that's real life. Naked, oiled up, wrestling, discus, sprinting, like whatever you want. It's got to be naked and you got to be oiled to shit.

It's just I mean, I guess in my mind, I'm sort of like sounds hot. But then I'm also like, how do you wrestle with your bits flying all over the place? Like, well, no. Oh, let me tell you. Oh, my God. You want to hear actually what happened? Because they had a string and they tied it. They had a string. It had a name. I forget the name of the string, but they took a little string and they tied it around their little dick and then they tied it and they tucked it under and then they tied it up in a nice little bow so it didn't fly around.

Wow. So it's kind of like a reverse drag queen tuck. Yeah.

But just like naked with a little bow. Naked with a scrotum bow. I did an episode on the ancient Olympics with a friend of mine who studies ancient spectacle. And oh my God, that part of the conversation, I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. It's an image seared into my brain. So they're slippery. They're slick. There's burning hot sunlight. Their sandy scrotums are tied up. Right?

And they're ready to throw around this big hunk of metal. Now, creepy little Zephyrus comes back into play. He's sort of sitting on the sidelines, unbeknownst to the two lovers, Apollo and Hyacinth. And Apollo decides to show off a bit. So he gathers all of his strength and he hurls the discus as far as he possibly can.

And Hyacinth runs out to catch it because, as we have already seen, the twink has to do everything in Greek mythology. Now, Zephyrus senses an opportunity here and he decides to blow, blow, blow the West Wind, a.k.a. himself, just right so that the discus slams into Hyacinth's temple and bashes his brain in.

Again, a totally reasonable response for getting turned down for a date. So Apollo is then unable. Apollo rushes to Hyacinth's side. But in a truly one of the biggest plot holes in Greek mythology is unable to fix his poor beloved's gushing brains, despite being the literal god of healing and can do nothing but hold him in his arms until he expires.

But don't worry. He then promises him a silver lining. Apollo is going to help Hyacinth live forever by A, singing his name, you know, and I guess we are still talking about him. So that did kind of work. And by turning him into the Hyacinth flower, which shoots up every spring, a symbol of beauty, a symbol of renewal, of youth. And Hyacinth is sort of like,

Okay, sounds good. And then dies. The end. Totally normal. Really sweet, sweet consolation prize. So what the hell does this one mean? Your thoughts, Liv. Over to you. Oh, this one's wild. I'm going to try not to just make this like...

live dislikes apollo hour but i do think it's interesting to talk about him and generally how like the gods kind of function in this way because this is a good example just the way you said like you know he was like holding him as he dies he's the god of healing he can't do anything um

And I think that I'll make you a flower. Truly his hands, his scrotum, they're all just like tied up. So the thing is with Apollo and why one of the other reasons I used to like make fun of him as a God is that he is the God of all of these things, right? He's the God of music and, and healing and art. He's like the God of all of these things, archery, all of this.

But almost every one of those things, he is like this, like he's like a mid, he's like the CEO of those things. He is the god of them, but he doesn't actually do the work. Because like Asclepius is his son. He's the true god of medicine. He's the one who actually does the healing. The muses are Apollo's like kind of, they're not his children. They're basically his aunts or cousins, I guess. Yeah.

Are they Zeus's children? They're Zeus and Mnemosyne. So he like kind of works through them, but they do actually the inspiring. And then the Oracle and prophecy, he's the god of prophecy, but all he does is give it to other people. He doesn't prophesy anything.

And he's the god of archery, but he's not even like the most famous archer in Greek mythology. You know, like that would maybe be his sister or even Eros. Like he just is this god of so many things that are like almost none of them does he actually do himself. Actually, is Plague the only one that I can think of him actually doing himself? Yeah.

He's like, oh, this plague? I could get behind this. Oh, yeah. I'm a plague god for sure. Leave this one with me. So I just think he's this god who takes credit for everything that other people do. And I just generally think that's an entertaining thing about him. But also, I think...

I mean, he is a god who is sort of famous for regularly, quote unquote, falling in love and, you know, becoming infatuated is more likely. Becoming infatuated, becoming obsessed with somebody and then causing their death in the pursuit of that obsession. He does it with women. He does it with men. And so I think a lot of what's happening here symbolically is he's a god associated with...

young deaths you know a young person who dies too soon who dies young he's associated with that so we have these kinds of stories about him you know kind of serving that role he's definitely like I mean yeah in a dark in a dark kind of way and

I mean, I don't want to just... He's obviously also a queer god, and I think that is interesting. I think he's like an equal opportunity defiler. That's maybe not the best way to follow up calling him a queer god, but I think it's true. But I just think it's indicative of him and maybe some of these things that he is the god of that he never loves permanently. He doesn't have any lovers who...

don't have terrible deaths or if he does i certainly can't think of any you know he he loves a lot of people who die terribly and it is interesting that it's you know people of all genders slash vegetally like a lot of people are being turned into plants and trees and animal you know coronis is another of his lovers she she died because he loved her and she got turned into like a

crow like there's you know there's there's a lot or maybe it was because of a crow I don't know but you know there's a lot of these kinds of transformations and so you know it also is like saying something about this you know the introduction of a hyacinth flower and it's saying a lot about the youthful nature of Spartans and kind of what they are interested in and you know it says a lot while also being like a depressing story about

someone who died in a frisbee tragedy i'm gonna i know it's not clever enough for me to keep saying it but i will anyway

No, but I love what you were saying about Apollo being a taker. Like he is kind of exploitative and manipulative in this story, in a lot of stories. But in this story, in a way that I think reflects, like almost models, again, kind of dangerous behavior. The reason I call it a tale of two tops is because, and actually it's a tale of three tops if you count Thamurus. Like this...

This level of competition for younger men's affections, attention is a source of strife, potentially, you know, if we're thinking about this from that kind of like sociological lens, like you have this institution where the prettiest women,

young men get chosen by the older men to be in these relationships, which are publicly known. They reflect on the young man. They reflect on the older lover as well. And it's almost like Apollo is modeling like really bad behavior of like strong arming his way in, you know, in a way, I wonder if like Hyacinth has to die in this in order to,

kind of pull on our heartstrings and show like, look, like the gods are fucking insane. And a love, love makes you do crazy things, including turning boys into flowers. But also this is like, this is part of the danger of love is that it can become so competitive.

Like, it's interesting that it's like the Greeks were obsessed with contests and competition. And it's interesting that there's both a romantic erotic competition going on here and an actual game, a Frisbee tragedy, as you as you put it, you know, there's this kind of there's there's a kind of poetic elegance to structure. Yeah.

Well, and you reminded me of something. I'm going to forget who first voiced this thought to me, but it wasn't my own. But there is also something to be said for, you know, you mentioned much earlier, I think, so I'll remind everyone, but that Apollo is not meant to be old. Apollo is meant to be perpetually youthful. And I think that's important, too. There's also something to be said for...

Apollo and Hyacinthus and Zephyr too. And there are versions, if I recall, where Zephyr and Apollo were kind of switched in terms of who seems to be more interested actually in Hyacinth's fate. But regardless, both of those gods are perpetually young. They're both always depicted as youthful.

And so I think there's something to be said for this story also representing the wrong way to do these types of relationships and why that ends up, you know, with a death because the, you know, for all that the Greeks, and we say this broadly, but like a lot of what we know does come from Athens in terms of these relationships. So,

like for all that we, you know, want to talk about, they were pretty open to having, you know, same gender lover. Well, as long as they were men, they didn't really care about women, but like they were very open to having, you know, men having these relationships, but it was really explicitly culturally acceptable when the other was younger. I think that a story where they are ostensibly of like a similar age range is

gets to this thing that they were navigating themselves, which is that they didn't have a way to culturally accept that type of relationship because they were still always like the, the pederastic relationships served as that mentorship as that, like they were kind of like this coming of age thing. And then the expectation was as soon as the younger one gets old enough, he goes off, he marries a woman cause he's got to have babies, you know? And so I think this is also, um,

telling a part of the story where it's like well if they're both young like this really doesn't work because we don't have a way to navigate that type of long term relationship we still are you

you know, going along with this, they had to make babies. And in Sparta too, actually, now that I'm reminded of that too, but in Sparta, making babies was the biggest thing because Sparta was a horrific slave state where they had such a small Spartan population because they were so, so xenophobic. And the structures around Spartan births were such that like they had a very small population and

making more was important because they had to keep their slave class in check, which their slave class was like three times the size of their actual populations. It was like not a good idea. They were terrible for that. Right.

But so there's also something to be said there about that Spartan thing coming in and how they were so concerned with making babies that like they can't have this kind of relationship thrive because that goes against that like propagandic nature. Yeah. No, but I hadn't thought about it from that vantage point of sort of like Apollo is also modeling...

kind of improper behavior for the, for the Effie, but you know, for the kind of the young man in the 18 to 20 ish range. Yeah. He's supposed to be the bottom and he's being the top. Well, yeah. But you're supposed to grow up. Like you're supposed to kind of move beyond that. These pederastic relationships where, which are appropriate when you're a younger adolescent, you know, age 13 to 17, let's say those ages kind of changed throughout antiquity. But yeah,

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I do think, I mean, the Greeks, like you think about the Warren Cup, you know, like they have the efib and the young boy on one side and then the kind of adolescent efibish and older man on the other side. Like, I think that these are two, that's obviously a later artifact from like, you know, I think it's first century AD. Oh my God. It's my favorite. I mean, I might know it. I just don't know the name of it, but...

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hold on. I got to show you this. Got to show you this. Thank you. So this is like older guy adolescent on one side and then on the other side. And this is like they're kind of in a brothel or something like that. But then on the other side, you have this. Oh, on the other side, you have much younger boy.

boy and kind of effie effie age you know he really maps on to the adolescent from the other side so anyway it's just to say like i i totally agree with what you're saying but then also i think there that the greeks acknowledge that this kind of relationship did happen you know and like

And that it was a kind of another natural form of pederasty. I'm not sure we can call it pederasty if it's like two pre 25 year olds, but like it's it was another form that they had to deal with and like work through. But it's interesting to think about that of like.

especially in the Spartan context of you are not doing the right thing when you are busying yourself with like pretty young things at the age, at the F-E age range. And I think also just to bring it back to Heracles, like this is tying into the theme of like,

Eros is a danger, a potentially dangerous force in that, you know, Zephyrus is also in love with Hyacinth. Like he, he's the one in who, who knocks the discus into his head and kills the, kills the, the kid. So,

This is also a demonstration of like even the gods are not impervious to the dangers of Eros, to the irrationality that it can lead you to. So in that way, I feel like this story is a lesson to like chill the fuck out. I feel like that's so much of Greek mythology. Like calm the fuck down maybe for a second before you kill someone else.

And they never do. And you know what? That is the perfect segue for our final act on Achilles and Patroclus. Are you telling me that they are not chilled the fuck out? Well, we will see. Achilles pretends he's chill for a little too long. In the underworld, they're chill together. Right, right, right, right. Sweet, sweet, sweet death brings some chill to them. Act three, Achilles and Patroclus, from comrades to comrades.

I was particularly proud of that. I just have to say. And you should be. I was really proud of that one occurring to me last night at 10 p.m. So everyone knows this story. This is the Iliad. This is the Song of Achilles. But just in case you missed it, just in case you've been living under a rock for 3,000 years. Go read that book first. And then the Iliad. Maybe the Iliad first. Yeah.

I would say read the Iliad first. It is actually, it's really good. Oh, yeah. I read it recently. And read Emily Wilson's. Yeah, yeah. No, it's good. I also read my most extra bitch thing that I ever, extra Greek mythology bitch thing that I ever did was go to Greece alone for two weeks and read the Odyssey on the beach. And it was...

One of the best two weeks of my life. I'm just going to tell you right now. I mean, I've spent two weeks in Greece alone and that's good enough. But yeah, adding the Odyssey, there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Yeah. Except it's so like, it's so basic in a way, but it was like, I had like the best time of my life. Back to the Iliad. So,

Paris is a prince of Troy. He comes to Sparta and selfishly absconds with Helen, the most beautiful mortal in all of the world. Yet again, another one. She is unfortunately, inconveniently the bride of Menelaus. And as many of us know, everyone in Greece goes over to Troy to fight for this one single woman. Amongst them is Achilles.

swift footed Achilles. He is the fiercest fighter in all of Greece. So halfway into the war, a debate about a Trojan woman, Briseis, who is kind of, you know, what's called a spear prize in this horrific patriarchal world where, you know, the Greeks are pillaging towns around Troy in the lead up to the siege. Well, during the siege of the city, because they need to feed their army.

And so Briseis is one of these captive women. Agamemnon tries to take her away from Achilles and that lands them in a spat. That is kind of where we start in the Iliad. So Achilles refuses to fight after his spoils are not properly allotted to him. Poor little Achilles. She just don't...

woman, the individual human being that he stole from her entire life and family. Somebody else stole her. Give her to me. She's mine. Achilles is of royal descent. He is famously the daughter of the son of a nymph, a sea nymph, Thetis. So that also gives- The biggest and baddest sea nymph. But there's also like, there's all of this hidden evidence that-

She like has so much on the gods that she is like ultimately like their biggest threat. And that's why they like marry her off to Peleus instead of anyone else. And why she also is like one of the neutralize her.

They neutralize her and but they can't even fully do it. And that's why she's the only goddess who is forced to marry a mortal and then leaves him. Yeah, it's also super interesting that Achilles is the son of a goddess. You know, I mean, not that that's unheard of, like Aeneas is is the son of Aphrodite. But it does tend to be that the Greek hero, male Greek hero is the son of a

male god. Also, I'm wondering if the kind of non-normative divine mortal relationship of Thetis and Peleus somehow carries down into Achilles in some way, being this recalcitrant, stubborn figure who doesn't fit into the mold, and kind of his relationship with Patroclus also doesn't fit into the mold.

So Achilles comes from, you know, this this weird relationship. He's also the lover or the beloved of Patroclus and leader of the fearsome Myrmidons. Or the podcast bros will tell you that they were just friends and absolutely they were just pals and they were just like they like to share a lady now and then. That's all.

And they were roommates. They were roommates. It's very that energy. And Patroclus goes along with him to the war. Obviously, Achilles says he's taking a break from the war because he can't have his spear prizes. And the Greeks begin to lose badly. So Patroclus eventually has enough of this because he's like, hey, buddy, you're

At least let me like pretend to be you and borrow your armor. And I can I can scare off the Trojans because they're also scared of you. They are actually burning our ships right now. Can we do this now, please? And Achilles is like, no, don't do that. But then, of course, tragedy. Poor Patroclus goes off and gets himself absolutely murdered because he does take the armor. He does charge. It does go well at first, but then Apollo sees him cutting down all of his favorite Trojans and takes him out.

Apollo's piece of shit. Apollo Apollo taking taking taking taking from everyone. And then this devastating loss for Achilles actually goads him into action. So no more Mr. Nice hanging out in my tent Achilles. He now joins the battle with nothing but vengeance for his lover on his mind.

And what's important just dramatically is like, we know, everyone knows that Achilles knows that he will die doing this. You know, his mother Thetis has told him he's fated to die and that specifically he's fated to die soon after Hector, the Trojan prince, who's the brother of Paris. And so Achilles kills Hector knowing that it's going to eventually mean his own death as well. He also kills Hector and then abuses his corpse for days, right?

presumably as some kind of you know sick gesture to his to the dead patrickless so then patrickless has to step in again because twinks have to do everything patrickless comes to him in a dream and says okay i love what you're doing a for effort but it's really kind of enough now please hurry up and die so that we can be together again which also kind of toxic to be like

Hurry up and die so I can love you. So Achilles joins the battle again, absolutely crushing it. Apollo sees him and guides an arrow from Paris's bow straight to the warrior's precious little heel. And this is famously something that we don't see in the Iliad, right? So that part is actually not really the dramatic climax of the Iliad. It's really more Patroclus's death and Achilles getting back into the action as a result of it.

Eventually Achilles and Patroclus are buried together on the shores of Troy, their bones in one urn, and both of their souls are whisked away to the Isles of the Blessed, where they can live in conjugal bliss for eternity. Roommates forever. Roommates, even in their urn. Roommates, even in the urn, I know. It's so nice. Yeah.

So what does all of this mean? I mean, I love that I'm ending this episode with what does the Iliad mean? But we're specifically asking, like, how is this story working in terms of our understanding of ancient Greek homosexuality and pederasty? I mean, one thing to just say, who is Patroclus? Is he the lover or is he the beloved? My understanding seems to be that in Homer, in the OG version, Achilles is the younger of the

Which kind of aligns with his spoiled brat behavior and his overall characterization as this like hotheaded youth. But later authors like Aeschylus in a fragmented play has Achilles being the older lover and talking to Patroclus's corpse about how much he loves his thighs. I wonder why.

Which roommates. And so, I mean, there's a little bit of I think the story, like the emphasis does kind of change depending on what we're what we're saying. You know, if it's like Patroclus being the responsible older lover who's like goes to battle and kind of like does what needs to be done. It kind of changes it from Achilles avenging his younger, hot headed pal.

Patricklis from going into battle and losing his life. But actually, I think they both die. So either way, we can read it any way we want. But I don't know, what's your view on that? Do you feel like it changes the story, like how we're meant to read it? So I mean, I think I'll say first, I don't think it matters which of them is older. I mean, generally, the

the question of that is a later construct that's coming from a time when people were trying to put these labels on them and that's interesting in itself when it comes to the iliad we're looking at this story that was being developed over hundreds of years and and workshopped and changed and adjusted until it was finally put into this form that we have right

So I think what's most interesting about them is this kind of debate about the debate, I guess, about whether they were, who was Erastos, who was a Romano's like, or Erastes and Romano's because that's the debate that they were having in the classical period. And, but they were also trying to, to map that relationship onto their classical period culture and,

Whereas it very much predated that. So, I mean, I think Achilles and Patrick was a better example of a much more human relationship. And by that, I mean, like, one that was coming about from natural love and affection and

rather than these kind of cultural norms that are then being ascribed later. I feel like in the Song of Achilles, it's been a long time since I read that, but it feels to me more like they're on the same kind of level. They're age mates, as we might say. They are, yeah. Yeah, and I think that that's so much more interesting because it feels to me like this is like a very real relationship that they developed just like anyone would today, you know, with that kind of...

I guess, freedom to be themselves and be together because it's also coming from this time period where we don't necessarily know the expectations or the, like, understanding around same-gender relationships and, like, whether those were, you know, ever, you know, acceptable or what have you. Like, and then also I wonder if there's something to be said for the fact that Achilles knows he's going to die and so...

Because of that, we kind of get this sense that the typical concerns of an adult man don't necessarily apply. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Right? And so then we have this question of like, well, is he allowed to be in this kind of relationship with Patroclus because there's no expectation of him to have a child in the more traditional sense? Like, he does, of course, have a child, you know, but that's sort of like this...

this sort of side quest story that happens before the events of the Iliad. And so instead, yeah, we just get this kind of, I think that what's most interesting about it is that it asks all of these questions. It has no answers. Yeah, I think it's just much more interesting to think of it as like this thing that kind of lives in a separate world from most of the other myths because it kind of does.

And I think that shows in the story itself. Yeah. No, it's interesting you say that of like Achilles by accepting his death is kind of like not an adult man. I think there is a trans historical thing here of like modeling the intense commitment of comrades at arms, which like would have existed in, you know, earlier archaic Greece and carried through to Greece.

the Hellenistic period, it gets that added layer of pederasty added to it maybe as we move into the classical age. Although it could also have been that in, you know, the Homeric kind of in that era when it's being, when it's being workshopped, as you said. In which case, like, I still think there are interesting questions to ask around, like, is Patroclus kind of like the responsible one

Is he the patriotic one versus Achilles? I mean, what's interesting, if it is a

a pederastic relationship is that Achilles is the talented one. He doesn't need Patroclus' sort of mentorship. That's also a different construct because that mentorship aspect doesn't really apply. Like Achilles is the son of a god, S, and is the fiercest fighter in all of Greece. But maybe what he does need is like some emotional maturity, you know? That's what I was going to say. I feel like they... I feel like... And this is like another...

I mean, sort of example towards like them being sort of on this similar level, which is that I think that they serve the role for each other. Like Patroclus is level headed in a way that Achilles is not. And Achilles is like, has the lust for war in a way that Patroclus does not. Like he's much more gentle and,

In a way that Achilles is not. And so I think they almost level each other out. Balance each other out in a way that again I think shows us a much more interesting example of...

Of this relationship that's, like, much more on, like, a level playing ground. But also, I think, you know, and just to keep in line with this idea that, like, yeah, when the Iliad was out there being workshopped, Pederasty very well could have, you know, been just as prominent. But I think maybe...

What's happening there is we're getting a sense, and this might be just this kind of like a hope and dream for me, but like we're getting a sense of maybe what non-Athenian relationships in that vein looked like because Athens in general in terms of

of power structure and sexual and relationship dynamics is like the most toxic of all of the Greek world. Right. Like for men and women. And so, but we know that pederasty started probably in Crete or like at least Crete had it like earlier, definitely in the archaic period. And so I think what's more interesting is to maybe imagine, um,

Yeah.

Where maybe the mentorship relationship was more equal, where these people were were developing relationships based on what I think is considerably more healthy, obviously, in a way where like the other person balances them out and kind of like, you know, keeps them grounded, whatever. Yeah. And so maybe that is still indicative of these non Athenian ways of having those kinds of relationships. Yeah.

It's so interesting because also Achilles is like not in some ways he's not a good Greek. Like he's he's not in control of himself. He's very motivated by his personal honor. He doesn't he doesn't work for the community. You know, like he abuses a corpse, which is one of the worst things that you can do. So that's interesting, too, of like Achilles.

I think this extreme character being tempered by this kind of more reasonable source of love in the Iliad. So yeah, really interesting and really different last one for us. Achilles goes too far. Patroclus...

also maybe, you know, is make some mistakes by stealing his armor and all of that. But I think we have to end it now by asking the question again, why do bottoms always die? I have one answer. I kind of think bottoms die to teach tops a lesson. It's I think like these are all different expressions of things that

can go wrong or can be dangerous or can be tricky about pederastic relationships and about love more broadly. So in all of these, we have heroes or gods who are kind of

of driven to irrational lengths by love. Heracles and Hylus, it's sort of like, it's okay to have a boyfriend, but they need to grow up and you need to be okay with that. You know, there are more underage fish in the sea for you to go after. For Apollo and Hyacinth, it's like,

okay, competing for boys is going to happen, but chill the fuck out. Otherwise you'll kill them. Or like it's harmful to them in some way. And Achilles and Patroclus is more complex, but I think it is again, posing this question of different types of love, like one that is very irrational and can drive you to terrible lengths. And then one that is more kind of level headed and can maybe actually make people better people, which is a very Socratic idea as well.

What do you think? Any other takeaways? I mean, I agree with so much of that. And I think that like...

I almost wonder whether, you know, Greek mythology generally has basically no healthy love stories. I put this call out to people back when Twitter was like a thing that I was capable of being on. And I asked that question of like, I would like to hear if anyone has suggestions for Greek love stories that don't end in tragedy or aren't like widely problematic. And

And there was no answer. But I think that the Greeks really were... I don't want to make this about women, but I'm going to just bring us in a tiny bit because I just think that the Greeks were so afraid of women. But I mean that in a way where I think that they were just baffled. They were baffled. And they, in terms of like men, which, you know, when we say Greeks, unfortunately, we'd have to kind of refer to men because they didn't really tell us anything about women other than their own biases. Right.

But I think that they were so concerned with holding on to the power in their whole world that they were generally incapable of understanding a healthy or like a loving man and woman relationship because they didn't really see it in that way. Like it was very much about control and just carrying on the family line and kind of like tucking her away. Yeah.

Household management at best is the ideal. And so I almost wonder whether they were more comfortable examining stories of love through male relationships.

And like what that kind of says. I mean, obviously we're still talking about like, why do they die? But because I think that there is still that thing coming in of them being like, we're more comfortable examining this kind of love and devotion between men. But we still recognize that in order for like us to maintain our power, we have to use the women to make more men. That's such a fascinating take, though, that like so much of this comes down to fundamental misogyny that underlay Greek homosexuality, Greek pederasty.

I mean, we've got to fall in love with the boys because the women are not real people is basically part of what goes into this institution's kind of rationale. I think what that comes with, though, too, which is kind of interesting and like harder, because I feel like the kind of reaction to that, that some people would have to what I said is this devaluing of homosexual relationships, which obviously I don't mean it to. But I also think that that is coming from this modern perspective.

Christian lens, right? Because it's coming from this pre-existing idea that there is something quote-unquote wrong with same-sex relationships, whereas the Greeks didn't have that. That didn't exist, and so there wasn't this existing bias. So it's like, the misogyny doesn't discount...

Any of the gayness, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Yes. Yes. Although, as we said at the top, we are talking about a different kind of gayness anyway. So it's like but it doesn't I think. Yeah, I agree with you. Like it doesn't invalidate the desire, the legitimacy of the love. And these are, you know, the reason we have myths exploring these themes is because these are.

This is real love to the Greeks. This isn't just their creepy institution of pederasty. Like it is a source of real romantic, passionate and spiritual desire and love. So they need these myths in some ways, I think, to to model different types of relationships and relationships.

maybe like Plato thinks justify them on some level, but also explore like, who do they benefit? How can they go awry? The fact that we have lots of kids dying in them, I think suggests an anxiety about what they do to the, the, these younger beloveds. But I think also for me, like just reading, I mean, these are not myths that are really taught in, in any detail. They kind of get relegated to like Zeus and Ganymede is kind of relegated

the origin story for the Trojan War. Hera goes and supports the Greeks because she's pissed off at her husband getting with a Trojan prince.

You don't learn that because these myths have been sanitized. They've been balderized. They've been removed from the canon. So I think for me, there's just, there is like kind of a rediscovery of the gay Greek myths that needs to happen. And I hope this episode has been that. These myths show that they were wrestling with really deep questions and challenges that these relationships posed. I think that this is all just so utterly interesting. And I do, I mean,

I mean, I love to break down the bullshit, and obviously I talk a lot about the patriarchy because it's there. But I think that one thing that's really difficult to understand when we're in this is to tear the Christianity out. Because I think so much of how people see...

the ancient greeks and all of their relationships is still through this like western christian lens this idea that any culture inherently believed that men and women should be the only ones together but i don't think that there is that inherent nature in any way like what's interesting is to look at the way the greeks understood these relationships as just being different and like

people love to tell you i mean i'm sure you hear it all the time i've certainly heard it on my show there are people who would be the first to say that like the iliad does not explicitly say that they were in a romantic relationship and it's like no but we can read it it's like right there yeah yeah and because there is this idea that like you know there is still an enormous group of people who were like the greeks were really straight and you're like what are you reading what do you mean and so i read the chapter on the scrotum time truly they were just not but

But I also think it's really interesting. Like the symposium is the thing that keeps sticking in my head because that's where, you know, we get this, this like debate about Achilles and Patroclus. And I think what's the thing that people don't get unless you're like really deep into that. But I think at the core is a piece of evidence that we have where like the, the classical Greeks. So like the ones we think of as these like perfect beacons of intelligence, like they were not debating, uh,

same-sex relationships being okay they that was not a question at all the question was like yeah who was the top and who was the bottom and what did that say about them and like

That's so foreign to us from this Western Christian lens. From a moral standpoint, yeah. Yeah, like there's no assumption that there's anything wrong with that. It's the question of how you do it and when. Whereas I think when people come to it now, it's this idea that like, oh, you know, but like God.

God made men and women to make babies together. And it's like, the Greeks were concerned about the baby making for sure. But that was it didn't come in to that. It was just about the physical ability to create a baby. Like it wasn't about that kind of like wrong or right or whatever.

And so I just, yeah, it's just really interesting to break that down and kind of like just tease out what we can find once we sort of attempt to like shove aside that Christian lens that is really hard to get out of because it's like the whole goddamn world. Yeah. And read it, like read these myths through their eyes or at least try to through the ancient, through the, through the prism of ancient sexuality, which is a fucking weird place. Yeah. It is different. Yeah. It's not the same. It's so different. Yeah.

And that, you know, doesn't make it wrong, but it is really different. So yeah, this has been so fascinating. I love doing this. I love chatting mythology with you. Thank you so much for all of your time and insight and patriarchal attack. Thank you. It's my utter pleasure. It was so much fun.

That's all for this week. Thank you so much for listening. And if it's your first time listening to a Historical Hormones episode, first of all, welcome. You are officially one of our little historical hormones. It's a growing community of beautiful geniuses who read a lot and care about queer history and also...

smell really good. If you want to keep a breast and a testicle, of all things historical homos, you can follow us on Instagram and TikTok or sign up for our weekly email on our website at www.historicalhomos.com. Love you!

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