Re-Air - Cheyenne Jackson: Depression, Identity, & Broadway
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Hey everyone, it's Mayim. Welcome to my breakdown, the place where we break things down so you don't have to. New Year's is tomorrow and I hope everyone's having a great holiday season thus far and also...

In case you're feeling maybe a little bit overwhelmed or anxious or maybe excited about what 2025 will hold, we want to share this early episode of MindBiolics Breakdown, which was one of the first episodes where Jonathan and I realized we were onto something special with this podcast that we hadn't originally intended.

Basically, we found out if you ask the right questions and provide the right conditions, people will open up and share about what it is ultimately to be human with others who are on a similar journey. You may know a lot about a person. You may know awards that people have won, success that they've had. You may know facts and figures about them. You might know a lot about someone's evolution as a person.

You might admire someone. Maybe you're even envious of their looks, their fame, the ease with which they seem to navigate the world. But we really don't know people until we look under the hood, as it were. And when we talked to Cheyenne Jackson, he revealed so many things about his story, his upbringing, his journey from...

Growing up in a religious cult of sorts to being a liberated and proud gay man who has starred in dozens of Broadway musicals, multiple award nominee, award winner. He forged a path through depression and through darkness that many of us never get to hear someone discuss the way Cheyenne discusses it.

That's why as we near the end of 2024, we're bringing you this very special interview with the immensely talented, deeply introspective and unbelievably honest Cheyenne Jackson. Enjoy. There is a certain group of people who think that gay people should only play gay people. I play Hades, Lord of the Underworld on the Disney Channel. I'm not really a Lord of the Underworld who steals souls, but I can pretend I am. I've had to learn that everybody's scared.

Everybody's scared. Okay, but some more than others. Some more than others, but... Wait till you go to a press event with me. You will see some more than others. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik, and welcome to My Breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so that you don't have to. It's Mayim Bialik's breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's gonna break down. It's a breakdown. She's gonna break it down.

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Accura. Precision. Crafted. Performance. Kevin, more boxes? You said you finished gift shopping weeks ago. I did. So I got myself some gifts as a reward. That's a lot of gifts. Plus, with Chase Freedom Unlimited, I cash back 1.5% on every purchase. So it's like a little gift on top of the gifts. Oh!

Today.

I'm very excited about today. Today we're going to break down another human. Sometimes we do that. We just break down the whole human. We're going to break down Cheyenne Jackson, who is my work husband. He plays my love interest on Call Me Kat, the show that I am working on. But he's like a really, he's like a very famous person. He's been in, I think, seven Broadway shows. For those of you who don't know, being in one Broadway show is an unbelievable feat. He also started...

quite late in the industry, 27. I mean, that's like, well, that's the age when many, many famous people OD. That's what that number is. But he started at 27 and like has an unbelievable story. He goes from like growing up for part of his childhood without electricity to

in a born-again Christian commune, essentially, knew he was gay from a very young age and got out of the 1,200-person town that he grew up in, finally got to go to public school and just has had an amazing, amazing journey. And he talks about his sobriety. He talks about some aspects of his mental health struggles, which he said he's never spoken about before. It's really a lovely... I forgot to introduce my co-pilot. If they were to give a...

Stanley Cup for awesomeness. This is the Canadian who'd get it. It's Jonathan Cohen. Hello, ma'am. Jonathan, why don't we do some housekeeping? Let's do it. Oh, that's on me. That's right. I was enthusiastic. If you're listening to the audio version of this podcast, subscribe. Give us a five-star review because it helps us make more and it helps us help other people. And that's what really we're here to do. And if you are listening to the audio version, check out the video.

You're going to listen back to this and be like, why do I sound like I'm making announcements at a funeral? I imagine that I'm actually a game show host. No. No? I mean, for a very, very morose game show. This is... In Canada. This is 300% excitement in Canadian. That's also true.

Jonathan, do we have a website? We have a website. You'll be able to find articles and related accoutrement there. That's a French word because he's Canadian. It's the only French I know. Bialikbreakdown.com. B-I-A. L-I-K breakdown dot com. Word of the day. We have two words of the day that I'm going to let you choose which one you want to answer. The first word is recovery. No. No.

related to the episode. The second word is empath. Okay, let's do recovery because it does relate to this episode. And I think that recovery obviously has a, you know, a basic definition, like to recover from something. Like you have a sickness and you recover from it. You get over it. But when we talk about kind of recovery with a capital R, what we're talking about is usually recovery from substance abuse, from alcohol abuse, from

Typically from ingesting something. Eating disorder? Yeah, meaning, yeah, something that's involved with an inability to regulate, you know, whether it's alcohol or food or drugs.

And so we talk about being in recovery as living a life typically of sobriety, not dryness. There's a difference between being sober and being dry. People tend to use these words in 12-step programs. If you're sober, you're working a program, which means you're attending meetings, typically have a sponsor. People who are dry simply refrain from ingesting but don't necessarily work a program of recovery.

So that's sort of the uppercase recovery definition. And people can be on a path of recovery. Yeah. People talk about being on a path of recovery. People talk about what the recovery includes. And that's not to say that there's an end destination. That's what I think is interesting. Like recovering from my foot injury is I can walk now and I'm better. Right. There's a beginning, middle, and end. But for recovery, when people talk about 12-step recovery or recovery from addiction, it's

it's typically a lifelong commitment to admit that you, well, the way that people in Alcoholics Anonymous tend to say it is that you, you'd like to believe you can drink like normal people, but you can't, or you'd like to believe that you can use like other people, you know, like, Oh, have a little of this on the weekend. Yeah. Usually people who are in recovery have committed to the fact that they will not be engaging in that kind of dance anymore. And that's their path of recovery.

And that's the word of the day. Nothing we say is going to be as interesting as Cheyenne Jackson. So let's bring on Cheyenne Jackson. I adore this man. I really do. I got to kiss him at work, which is weird. I'm just meaning like it's weird to kiss someone you're not dating, I think.

But I'm also conservative that way. Plenty of people kiss people they're not dating all the time. They call it dating. Just kidding. Before we bring on Cheyenne, I'm going to read a little bit about him for those of you who may not know. Cheyenne is a Grammy-nominated actor, singer, and songwriter. That's impressive. It's impressive. He was most recently seen starring in HBO Max's four-part LGBTQ plus docuseries Equal.

He was in Saved by the Bell. He actually posted that on Instagram, I think today. The reboot, not the original. The reboot. And Kenny Ortega's Netflix series, Julie and the Phantoms. He's also collaborated with Kenny Ortega, actually who I've worked with. I should talk to him about that. He was in Descendants 3. So many things. American Horror Story. I didn't even realize.

that he was in multiple seasons of American Horror Story. He's been on Watchmen, worked with Lisa Silverstone. He was on 30 Rock. He's been on Glee. Curb.

He's been on so many things. Law and order. Oh, I also didn't know this. He was in the 2006 Academy Award-nominated United 93, which I saw. I have to revisit it now. Behind the candelabra, that's the Liberace one. Amazing things. Really, really amazing. He's also going to be in an upcoming feature, Werewolves Within.

On and off Broadway, he has starred in The Performers, The Most Happy Fella, 8, Finian's Rainbow, which my father was in. I have pictures of my father in Finian's Rainbow when my dad was like 13 years old, for which he received a Drama Desk nomination. He's been in Damn Yankees, also got nominations for Xanadu, The Agony and the Agony, All Shook Up. That's the one where he played Elvis and was in the premier cast of Alter Boys, Aida, Thoroughly Modern Millie, On the 20th Century, and The 24-Hour Plays. I'm intimidated by him just based on his bio.

But we're going to talk to him anyway. Let's welcome Cheyenne Jackson. Break it down. So exciting. This is Cheyenne Jackson. Hi. Thank you so much for talking with me. I think that you're the person I've spent the most time with, really, in the last month for sure. Not only are we working together, but we're working together in a way that we don't really hang out with a lot of other people besides whoever lives in our home and then each other. So...

I think the other day we had a scene where we all got to hug and it was like we all held the hug a little too long because it's so bizarre to get to be with each other as much as we do get to when we're not really hanging out with other people. So thank you for letting us do a case study, as I call it, of all things Cheyenne. You're welcome. Thank you.

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Miami Bialik's Breakdown is supported by Rocket Money. Rocket Money, how I love thee. Rocket Money recently helped me find and cancel an extra subscription to a streaming platform that I managed to sign up for under two separate email accounts. I bet many of you out there are like me and are currently overpaying on subscriptions that you've just forgotten about. Thanks to Rocket Money, we don't have to remember every subscription because you can see it all laid out right in front of you. The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, and prioritize what matters most. Rocket Money is a great way to get started.

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cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash breakdown today. That's rocketmoney.com slash breakdown, rocketmoney.com slash break. Kevin, more boxes? You said you finished gift shopping weeks ago. I did. So I got myself some gifts as a reward. That's a lot of gifts. Plus, with Chase Freedom Unlimited, I cash back 1.5% on every purchase. So it's like a little gift on top of the gifts. Oh.

I get it. It's just like that saying. It's the gift that keeps on giving gifts for the gifts you give for giving gifts. And now you lost me. Chase, Freedom Unlimited. How do you cash back? Restrictions and limitations apply. Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Like, give us a little thumbnail sketch. Who was young Cheyenne? What were you like as you were growing up also?

Oh my gosh, where to start? I'm going to start at the beginning. I'm going to start at where it all began. I'm from a teeny little town, a mill town in northern Idaho called Old Town, Idaho. It's right on the border of Washington and Idaho. The Ponderay River runs through the two states. How tiny is tiny? 1,200 people. Oh, that's like you know everyone pretty much. You know everyone. There's one blinking red light. I think they got a McDonald's a few years back, I heard.

I'm sure it's wonderful for everyone. Very, very close to the Aryan Nation compound right outside of Coeur d'Alene. So it was a very white, very Christian, very Republican town. My parents were hippies.

And then became born again Christians. So it was a very strange pendulum swing, but they kind of straddled both worlds. And we lived on 20 acres in the woods with no running water. And I had an outhouse. We had two goats named Harmony and Melody that because I, because cow's milk, I couldn't process probably still can't, but that's another conversation. Yeah.

Um, and it was a really beautiful bucolic way of life. And I have, uh, an older brother and a little sister and an older half brother that didn't live with us. So it was really just the five of us, the Jackson five that lived on this little land. And, um, what was little Cheyenne like? Well, I think from the time I was seven, I knew that I was other, I knew that I was different.

In this little town, it was a football town, and that couldn't be further from who I am and what I was about. I loved going to yard sales, and I loved looking through other people's treasures. And I came upon a tape one day. It said, Billy, Ella, Lena, and Sarah. Billy Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne, Sarah Vaughan. I'd never heard of any of them, and my little brain exploded. It was a cassette tape. And...

I started listening to jazz music and I started listening to... My parents are very musical. I'll be jumping around because that's how my brain works these days. My mom was very musical, self-taught, beautiful singing voice, plays a little guitar. My dad, completely tone deaf, but loves all kinds of music. So

there was always music playing in the house. That's one of my biggest memories. And it was early on, I was kind of pegged at our church for having a good singing voice. And so I thought, oh, I think that'll be my thing. I was always a very...

Self-conscious kid. I was really tall, taller than everybody. Were you tall and thin? Like, were you a lanky, tall, lanky kid? Yeah, I was. I was always ahead above everybody else, but I was always very gentle. And so then people, somebody called me the gentle giant once. And I'm like, I don't like that. And so I just always had this feeling of standing out, but maybe not for the best reasons. I just always kind of, um,

had anxiety about being in big groups of people, but when I would sing, uh, kind of went away. So that would, that would manifest later in life in other ways, but cut to, I would say about 12 or so. I'm pretty sure I'm gay. Our French teacher, Mrs. Henry, she came into class one day and she said, you guys, there's this show called Les Miserables French teacher. And you're all going, it's in Spokane, Washington. I didn't know what it was. I'd never heard of

Broadway or Les Mis or anything but I just I was super excited because we had to sign parent-teacher consent form because there were prostitutes in the show and we were like and I remember sitting in the audience at 13 in Spokane Washington where I was born by the way it's about a 45 mile drive from where we where I was raised and it started and

you know, the, ah, ah, ah, I just thought I had just remember goosebumps over my body. And I saw these people up there and I thought, wait, what? That can be a job that you could do that for a living. That is what I want to do. I don't know how that's going to happen, but it was, it was, it was as if something went off inside me and I thought, oh, that's going to be my ticket out of this town. So that's how that all began. And there's,

a million things in between, but. That's such an amazing, I mean, it's an amazing story already. How, how did you get out? Did you get, I mean, you, you went, you were there through high school. Did you have running water at any point? Yeah. So we, my mom, my mom hates when I say that she's like, we only didn't really have running water for four years. I'm like,

That's still a long time. With three kids. Yeah, that's... Yeah. No, we lived off the land. We had chickens and we had goats and we grew potatoes. And it was really wonderful. And I remember a lot of really wonderful things about it. But as I started to feel so different and so other, I just knew that I needed to get out of this town. There was nobody queer. There was one family of color. It was just... It wasn't where I needed to be. And I knew I wanted to get out. So...

I went to a private Christian school called House of the Lord Christian Academy. Yeah. And it was very, it was a church slash school. So church and Jesus and church,

It was all wrapped up in school and all in the same building, one big building in the middle of this huge trailer park. I'm sorry, I'm going to say it, but it's true. There was just trailers all around in our church school. My whole life was there. I went to that till eighth grade. When I was in eighth grade, I had, there was only one other kid in my class and it was all independent study in the school. So you were sitting in cubicles and we had a blue flag,

a little flag to raise and put in a little hole if we wanted a boy teacher to help us and a little red flag to put in a little hole if we wanted a girl teacher to help us. The girl teachers were called monitors and the boy teachers were called supervisors. It's a whole thing. And at eighth grade, I just thought, I can't be in this little, I'm not, I was doing all of it. You only were supposed to do four pages in each subject a day and I would be done by 1030 in the morning.

And if you were on good privilege, which they would put like a little placard up, you're on, if you're on E privilege, it was this little red E they would put in your cubicle. That means you could go to the E privilege room, which was like a hangout room.

So we would just sit there and play foosball and I don't know, and just sit around all day. It was just not, I wasn't learning a lot. And also my brother, my older brother, Chris, who is now a pastor in here in California had shown a really, a real talent in sports. He was a great runner and he went to public school and really excelled. And, you know, there was 75 kids in the class rather than two. So my parents let me go to public school in eighth grade.

And then I started singing in the choir. I also got on the track team and had a, I was good at sports as well and started to find a little niche for myself, Jesus and church and mission trips. All of that was really my, my 15, 16 and 17 year in high school. When I was that age, it took up most of my time. I went on three different mission trips to Mexico and would help dig ditches and, and help in orphanages and, and,

go door to door passing out Bibles. And it was something that was really hard for me because deep in my heart, I didn't believe in the things that I was talking about. I didn't believe it to be true. And it didn't, it just didn't land for me. Like I did with my brother. My brother was always, always loved the Lord. I was always his path. He was always a great speaker and,

Always a great teacher. You know, my church was big in speaking in tongues. And I remember at a Christian summer camp we went to, there was speaking in tongues night.

And if you, it was, you were basically, you were screwed either way. This is how I look at it because I never had spoken in tongues before that this was the night. And if you had, you got in this line and you helped the kids that hadn't yet. Sorry, this sounds like a SNL sketch. It's crazy, but it is true. And I remember I was in the line where I hadn't yet spoken.

And I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do? I'm going to get to the front of the line and I'm going to, something's going to have to come out of my mouth. And the pastors, they're laying on your hands and like, oh, you know, and I'm like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to improv this and we'll see how this goes. Did you sing something from Les Mis? I mean, I should have. And I just made up something and

It was kind of in those, in that moment and around that time where I thought I'm going to have to really face the fact that I don't believe in Jesus like my family does. And I'm going to have to somehow that's, I'm going to have to come to terms with that. And it really did. When the, on my 18th birthday, I had just graduated high school and I turned 18. My birthday is July 12th, 1975. I was on my final mission trip and I was secretly in love with,

with or had a crush on my youth pastor, this guy with big feet and a big nose from Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. They got me a big blue birthday cake. I'm going to go deep here. Why not? They bought me a big birthday cake because it was my 18th birthday and I wasn't at home. It was one of those really cheap, gross ones that you make your teeth blue. There was a campfire

And all the kids were singing and praising Jesus and had their hands raised. And they were crying. I was looking at my friend Willow, who is one of my dear friends, actually named my daughter after her. She was crying. And I remember seeing the tears coming down her face. And she really, truly believed in this. I went out swimming. It was dark. The sun had already set. And this was like a strange beach in Mexico. You shouldn't be out beyond the reef.

I was kind of just figuring something out for myself. I was about to have some kind of major existential crisis. I didn't know it at the time, but I just felt the need to go swimming too far. And I've actually never talked about this except for my family. My heart's racing because I am remembering what it felt like. So I was out there and it was dangerous and I was getting further and further away from the beach and I could see everybody. And I just remember thinking,

I'm gay. I'm not a Christian. I want out. And the church is not going to accept me. And my brother is a perfect athlete pastor. My little sister is this, you know, a wonderful, yeah, I just, I felt so different and I felt so alone and I felt so scared.

And I made, I had like a weird little, I did a little dare to myself. I said, I'm just going to let myself sink right now in the water. And I don't know if it was as cognizant or aware as I'm saying now, but when I, as I look back as a 45 year old man, I look back at what was happening. I was just kind of giving myself an ultimatum. Like if I survive this night in this water,

I'm going to make some changes and I'm going to come out and I'm going to change my life. And if I, if I don't, then I, I don't. And I let myself sink in the water and it was cold and it was dark. And I was, I just kind of remember feeling calm. And then I felt as if two hands were

yanked onto my shoulders and lift me out of this water. So much so that I thought someone was swimming with me. I was looking around like, what the hell? And I, I came out into the, out into the air and I was gasping for breath. And I felt like I had been born again. Like they, you know, in, in Christianity, you get baptized and you're born again. And I was baptized and did the whole thing. This was for real. This was,

Oh, I'm now I'm supposed to be my authentic self. And from that second, I was never the same. And I came out to my family about six months later. The church kicked me out. It was devastating. My family and I had to really take a sabbatical from each other because I had to allow them to mourn.

the loss of who they thought I was going to be and what I was going to be. And also I just needed some space. So I went to Spokane, Washington. The big city. And the big city. I got into a gay youth group. I got on a gay volleyball team called Safe Sets. And it was then I started to find people like me and a tribe of people like me. And then I heard about a thing called Summer Stock.

And I had done some plays and I auditioned for this company in Coeur d'Alene. And I got in and the first production was Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. And I think I slept with five out of the seven brothers just to make sure. And it was as if like, ah, this is where I'm supposed to be. These are my people. These are my weird, queer, black people.

circus folk. I felt so connected and it was, and that set me on the path of really focusing on honing the talent that I had already been given. At Amica insurance, we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent, being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow today.

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Kevin, more boxes? You said you finished gift shopping weeks ago. I did. So I got myself some gifts as a reward. That's a lot of gifts. Plus, with Chase Freedom Unlimited, I cash back 1.5% on every purchase. So it's like a little gift on top of the gifts. Oh, I get it. It's just like that saying. It's the gift that keeps on giving gifts for the gifts you give for giving gifts. And now you lost me. Chase Freedom Unlimited. How do you cash back? Restrictions and limitations apply. Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC.

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Okay, so if we were to draw a line from that moment to here, we would have this kind of like perfect, polished, you know, story, right? Of Cheyenne Jackson, who is an incredibly diverse talent and has done how many Broadway shows? Yeah.

I think seven. Okay, seven. Like, that's unbelievable. And you have this singing presence. You have a family. You have a husband of our tribe. You have an Ashkenazi prince. And you have twins. And, you know, you're at 45, still youthful and handsome and all of those things. But there's a lot in between. Yeah.

which I had Leslie on, Leslie Jordan, who we're also working with. Having Leslie on made me realize how important it is to tell our stories. And the whole purpose of this podcast for me and Jonathan was instead of saying, let's remove the stigma, let's remove the stigma, we're actually trying to sort of clean up our little corner of removing the stigma by asking people to talk about those things

you know, those things that we're usually told to hide and those things that we often feel shame about. And what those things are, are just us being human. And it's different for everyone. And there's not like a better or worse about it. You know, I come from the school of like terminal uniqueness where like I suffered the most, I promise. I want everyone to know how I suffered and I'll talk about it all day and I'll, you know, I'll get to a book about it at some point.

There are some other significant things, you know, between 18 and now that you have chosen to be public about. Yeah. Being a sober person is one of them. And that's something that kind of keeps coming around for me and Jonathan, just with people that we speak to. You know, we'll think that we're speaking to someone about depression or we think we're speaking about this, but...

this other stuff surfaces. And I guess I would love to know when your dance with filling that God-shaped hole started. Sure. Well, thank you for giving me this opportunity. It actually helps to put it into words because it's been a minute since I've talked about what went down and how and why. So I started doing theater and I was...

such a good kid all through school. I didn't have a drink of alcohol. I made sure that all my girlfriends were Mormon so I wouldn't have to be pressured to have sex.

and anything above the blouse. I kept it kosher. I was a good kid, in quotes. I didn't experiment with anything because I wanted to make my parents proud, and at the time, I wanted to make myself proud. Then when I got into theater, obviously, what goes along with that is a bunch of partying and drinking. I remember the first time

I drank. So wait, hold on. Is that, let's stop you right there. Sure, sure. So I was not a theater kid. Like I, I missed out on this part because I was in school plays and then started professionally acting at 11 and a half. So I've heard of this. What is this? You mean, I mean like explain it for those of us who don't know. You're doing plays with people and it's just like, that's just the, the social world? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, it's like, I call them, it's like carnies. It's circus folk. It's, it's, it's these mishmash of, of self-described outcasts who come together to create these shows and you're in these, you know, disgusting little theaters, but to you, it's just incredible. And you can't wait to get to rehearsal and you run your lines all night and you just,

Everything is about the performance and running it and just being the best and challenging yourself and each other. And then what goes along with it is a huge social aspect because as soon as the curtain comes down, all the drinks come out and the shots come out. And I remember the first time I had a drink, I felt like I've always had anxiety. I can look back at home movies of myself at 13 and

A lot happened at 13. I grew seven inches in one summer. And all of a sudden, I was nearly the height I am now. I'm almost 6'4", and I was about 6'3". And I just...

was ahead above everybody. And so felt so awkward because it was a football town. Like I said, they asked me to go and, you know, come watch a football practice. And I remember taking my dad, I wrote a song about this once, you know, I hadn't told my dad, obviously this was, I was still in school. I hadn't told him I was gay. I didn't tell him until I was 19, but you know,

I came back after the break, the summer break, and I had grown so much. And the football coach clocks it. And he's like, Jackson, I mean, look at you. You're a linebacker. Come on, let's go. I'm like, I don't know. It's not really. He's like, just come watch a practice. Just come watch a practice and see. And bring your dad. My dad was a cop. He was the undersheriff of Pend Oreille County. Drove us to school in his cop car. He wasn't supposed to. So we would have to hide in the back when he drove through town. The coolest, like, Vietnam vet ever.

bodybuilding, like manly, manly man, man, a few words, but when he spoke, you definitely listened. And so my dad went to a practice with me and he thought it would be a good thing. Cause I didn't have a lot of guy friends. And I remember sitting on this bluff overlooking all the guys, you know, playing football and my dad and I aren't looking at each other, but we're feeling, you know, the same energy. And, and it was so violent. I mean, you know, they're just crashing into each other. And all I could think about was what about my face? And,

My mom always said, watch your face. But I was seriously grappling with how am I going to tell my dad that this is not for me? And my mouth was dry. It's dry right now thinking about it. And he put his hand on my knee without looking at me. And he said, shiny. He called me shiny. He said, shiny. Shiny.

It's okay. You don't have to. And in that moment, I knew my dad got it and he got me. And remarkably, when I came out at 19, he was the one that had the least problem with it. That was just a quick sidebar, but it, that is to indicate how much anxiety I had about feeling different. So when I took that first drink, I always describe it as my head being like

sharp, jagged mountain peaks. And when I took that drink, it's like somebody poured yellow cake batter into the peaks and it slowly went up and it evened everything off. And I felt like, oh, there Cheyenne is. Oh, he's not the guy in the corner that can't talk to anyone. He's the guy that will talk to anybody. And he is interesting and interested. And I felt really in my own skin. The problem was

Once I felt really in my skin, I wanted to keep feeling that feeling. And then I would start thinking about when can I feel that again? And I would go into a bar ahead of my friend. I got a fake ID at 19 in Spokane. A lot happened in Spokane. Dempsey's Brass Rail.

I was dating a guy who was straight and we kind of looked alike and he let me use his ID. And so I would go there and immediately go to the bar and ask for two shots because one was for my friend who was going to be there in a minute, but they were both for me just so I could feel like, okay, I can do this. I can do this. So from 19 on, I had the idea that I wasn't

And I wasn't definitely wasn't okay in a social situation without having something. So this went on for, you know, I was, I always wanted to move to New York and be on Broadway, but I didn't go to college and I didn't, wasn't trained.

And I couldn't just take the word of people that said like, oh, you should go to New York. So I just didn't. And I moved to Seattle for a boy and we were together for a few years and started working my way up into the Seattle theater scene. I became like the Seattle musical theater star and I was in all these productions and

I was 27 at the time and still was just, I worked at a magazine and in Seattle and I worked for as a bank teller for a little while, still doing theater at night. I would wait in line for your row of bank tellers. I was really fast. That's why in our show, I can count money really fast. But at 27, I still hadn't made it to New York. I still hadn't done anything. And two things happened. 9-11.

happened and just obviously changed the way all of our lives are forever. And, and the, just the idea that everything is so finite and something more sad. My brother, my pastor brother, he, his little girl died. She was three. And so it changed our family forever. And it was, there was so much grief and so much pain. And I just thought,

I do not want to be an old man thinking, why didn't I try? Why didn't I go to New York when I was young? Everybody says I should. Just do it. And also just for people who don't, for people who may not know this kind of world, like New York is sort of like the place you go when you have a certain level of ability because that is where Broadway is. Like that's like if you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere. That's right. Right. That's right.

And it was the ultimate. And those two things, 9-11 and Little Alexis, both of those just shook me to my core. And I thought, I'm going to make this happen. I was in a local production of The Prince and the Pauper. It was a new musical. It was terrible. I love The Prince and the Pauper. It's a great story, but this musical was not. And they would cast local stars, local theater names in the chorus, and they would cast the leads from New York.

And all the leads came from New York. And there was this guy named Mark Kudisch, who is a big Broadway star, still is. And I was cast as his understudy. And he said, he played Gaston in Les Mis or in Beauty and the Beast. And he's this big guy. He looked at me. He's like, dude, if you ever come to New York, I mean, I'll hook you up. And I got an agent. And there was something about him that was just so sincere and not creepy and new.

I knew he was straight and it was just something I thought, okay, I'll remember that. So once these two things happened and I wanted to make a decision, I had a boyfriend at the time. I said, listen, I want to move to New York. I want to give it a shot. And he said, go, um, I'll come when you get set up. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll figure it out and we'll, we'll work it out and be together. And, um, so I did, I moved to New York. I was staying in a shitty little apartment in Midtown Manhattan. I immediately called Mark Kudisch.

and said, hey, remember me? So I'm here. Don't have pictures or headshots, but I'm raring to go. And he was like, great. Here's my number for my agent. Go in. I'll tell him about you. And the next three weeks of my life, this is what happened. I went in and I read for these guys and they signed me. I read and sang. And my very first audition

I got headshots taken, but I hadn't gotten them back. I just had the proof sheet, you know. And my very first audition was for the first replacement and understudy in a show called Thoroughly Modern Millie. It had just won the Tony for Best Musical. And Sutton Foster had just won Best Actress. And they were looking for somebody who could be in the ensemble, tap dance, and also understudy, Mark Kudisch. Wow. Yeah.

who is a low baritone and this guy named Gavin Creel, who is a high tenor. From all of those years of listening to Elvis, Roy Orbison, but also Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne, the thing that has made my voice special is that I can sing really low and really high. There was also a patter song in it, and I've also been able to gesticulate and speak very clearly and quickly

one of my little talents and that there was a patter song in the show. It was just a perfect storm of all the stuff that I was good at. You kind of needed to look young and you kind of needed to look old. And that's always been me. When I auditioned, I auditioned for the sound of music at 16 and they said, are you here to play the captain? I'm like, Rolf, I'm 16. And

but I just have a big old cowboy man face. And I just, I'm a, you know, I'm like, I always look the way I look now, basically when I was, since I was 16. So I went into this audition and got the part. Didn't, didn't know how to tap dance, but I, I told them if you cast me, I will learn. Um, I had so much confidence and they, they thought my name was fake. They're like, I remember Michael Mayer said Cheyenne Jackson. Really? I'm like,

I'm like, yes, actually I'm named after a TV show in the fifties. I can sing, sing you the theme song if you need it.

I really manifested that show to happen. I believed it was going to happen. I just had to kind of convince everybody else. But within three weeks of moving to New York, I was in a Broadway show. Mark didn't even know that I had auditioned for that and gotten it. He walked down the theater one night as they were like presenting me to the cast. And he was like, oh my God. And he was gracious and wonderful. And then three months later, he got a job at the opera. And so I got to be bumped up and do his part.

And he'd been nominated for a Tony. So it was the universe, God, higher power, whatever, telling me that I was in the right place. And so I hit the ground running and I just did show after show and I did workshops and I did... Did the boy come? He did follow me. Yes, we were together for...

12 and a half years. You were happily drinking during this time. What was your life like, like in terms of also a performer's lifestyle? And I was super ambitious because I started late, you know, 27 is considered kind of late to begin acting professionally. Um, I wanted to hone my craft as much as I could. And I got, I immediately on every set, um,

on every, in every show I become friends and, and would, and would just gravitate toward the person with the most experience and just kind of get everything I could from them because I didn't go to school and I have this chip on my shoulder that I'm not smart enough and I'm not trained enough because I didn't go to school. But

It ended up not being true because here I was among the best of the best. My big break was I played Elvis in the Broadway musical, All Shook Up, and there's a billboard of my face in Times Square, five stories tall. Drinking began to be the thing that was my release. I would never drink during work, ever, and never by myself. It was always a social thing. It was always just something as soon as the show was over, you're on such a high, and it's New York City.

Everybody just goes out afterwards. As my life started to get bigger and bigger, I needed a bigger release. And then drugs came into the picture. And I got into the gay scene. You heard of like circuit parties, gay circuit parties, where it's like, yeah, a sea of like muscle guys with no shirt on. And the music's like for hours and hours and hours.

So we would do ecstasy and we would do all the party drugs. And that was just kind of my release from when I wasn't working. I did a play with Jane Krakowski and Sean Hayes. I did damn Yankees and Tina Fey came and saw the play to support Jane Krakowski. And she, she came backstage afterwards and she said, I like your big Midwestern face and your comic timing. I hadn't done television yet. And she said, I have this part on 30 rock. I'd like to gauge your interest. I'm like, okay.

It's high. My interest is high, Tina. And so my first TV was 30 Rock and they were at the height of their critical and commercial success. And I was well aware of what was just handed to me on a silver platter. So I just...

Went right... Luckily, most of my stuff was with Alec Baldwin, who was so scary. But he was brilliant, a wonderful technician. Intimidating, I think, more than scary. Intimidating. Intimidating because he is...

a master at his craft. He is effortless. Yeah. He's effortless. You can give, they would give him two paragraphs, not unlike yourself, Mayim. You haven't, you have the same thing. I watched it happen. You, you'll be given two new huge things to say. And he like, he would scan it and be like, okay,

And you do the same kind of thing. I don't know if it, do you have a photographic memory? I have a visual memory. I don't like to call it photographic. There's a chip in their brain. There's a chip in my brain. Well, whatever it is, it's amazing to see. I don't learn like that, but I would watch him and I learned so much from him. And so that was my first television that,

train, train started to chug along, but my drinking just started to get out of control. At one point I was doing 30 rock during the day. And then I was doing the revival of Finian's rainbow on Broadway at night. They worked it to where I could work and then immediately run to the theater. And it was a crazy time. I would get to the bar and I wouldn't even be able to be focused with my friends and have fun with them. I would just be thinking like,

When's the next round? Yep. Are we going to get more? Are you going to finish that? I mean, I would be watching someone's drink like, oh my God, she's not even drinking it. It's sitting right there. It's so delicious. And look, she's not even watching. Look at her. She's just like looking around the room, taking sips. Like I, it became an obsession. And I had a few scary instances where I blacked out. I had a couple of overdoses.

I ended up in the hospital. I've never talked about that, but I think it's important to be honest about. I started doing GHB, which is what a lot of people do. A lot of in the gay community at my, at my time, they were, there was a lot of that and you can't do any, you can't have alcohol at all with it. And it's nearly impossible to dose, but of course, you know, as an addict, we were like, I got this.

So, yeah, on two separate occasions, I woke up in the ER and my friends said, you just kind of fell asleep on the dance floor and you were asking about your dad and you didn't have a shirt on. And I'm like, oh, charming. So one too many instances like that. And then I actually met Sia, the Sia who we all know and love. I met her at we were at a photo shoot together and she was getting ready to go to rehab the next day.

And I was really taken with her and she with me. And we definitely had a great rapport. She had seen me in Xanadu, a play I did on Broadway. We kind of kept in touch and I watched her life explode. And then in the following like six to 10 months or so. And what we say in recovery is attraction rather than promotion. And you see something in someone else that you want to

And I wanted that. I wanted peace. She had a peace that she didn't have before. And I did not have peace. I was in a marriage that was not great. Not great communication and just not a great fit anymore. I got married. I'm talking about my ex-husband. It was just my life had become unmanageable. And I said to Sia one day, I think I might...

She's like, be an alcoholic. I'm like, yeah. She said, I was wondering when you were going to ask me about this. So she took me to my first meeting in New York, 52nd, I think. And I sat down.

And cried through the whole meeting. I was going to say, it's just, yeah. Cried the whole meeting. She held me the whole time. And that was the beginning of it for me. It landed hard for me. And I realized, oh, this is where I need to be. That was eight years ago. Actually, no, eight and a half. Because I had one slip up after my first six months of sobriety. I was shooting a movie in Europe. And just...

lost my marbles for a night and thought, oh, I can do one more night and then cut to that is how my road took me here. Here's a question. And this is a, you know, a scary one, I think. I mean, it's the question, whatever it is, whether it's alcohol or sex or food or work or weed or whatever it is, if that's what's like filling in those jagged edges, right? If that's the, you know, if that's the cake batter, it's not that different also from if you go on, you know, medication, right?

for suicidal depression or for anxiety. And you realize, oh, wait, there was something different in me and this makes it doable. So the scary question is, you know, who are we if we're not filling that, filling it with cake batter, right? Like, was Cheyenne supposed to be this anxious, you know, person when we find sobriety, you know, emotional sobriety or, you know, whatever kind of sobriety that

What we're saying is that we are learning something else besides that cake batter that allows us to both be who we're supposed to be while also being an acceptance of all the limitations we have that made us want to use in the first place, right? Right. The question is, you know, who is Cheyenne really? Right.

Because that feeling of like, oh, this is who I'm supposed to be. I just have to be loaded to feel it. So who is Cheyenne really? And what do you use now? Like, what is it? I mean, this is the million dollar question, right? Mayim, I mean, learning to love yourself. I have to do a quick callback to something because I just said learning to love yourself. In that same Christian church camp where we had the speaking in tongues camp,

They also spent a weird amount of time talking about how terrible the song, The Greatest Love of All. Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all. Right. And they said, no, no, no, it's not. It's Jesus. But I was thinking, I just remember, that just reminded me of that. And it's just, it all makes sense. I mean, God is another drug. That kind of God is another drug. 100%. And learning to love myself,

All with all of my imperfections and my insecurities has been my biggest, my life's work has been my biggest challenge. It's something I knew I would never until I learned how to be with myself, sober with myself.

Yeah. I was just going to say, what does it look? Do you look in the mirror and you say, Cheyenne, I love you. What does it look like? In, in early sobriety, it looked like as simple as your skin off and making you walk out in the world without. Oh yeah. With raw jagged edges. But it's, it, it, it first, it's just the baby steps of being in, uh, say like a press event, like for in our world where you have to be on display on display. And, um, it,

It's this constant juxtaposition because I'm also a vain person, somebody who wants to be looked at, but also I don't want to be looked at because I'm also self-conscious and I'm, you know, have, it's like this pull. So the big, the first big step for me was to be able to be in a public event at a charity event or whatever sober and to be okay with it. Small talk with strangers. I would rather not.

do anything else in the world. It just brings up so much of my own shit, but I've had to learn that everybody's scared. Everybody's scared. Okay. But some more than others, some more than others, but wait till you go to a press event with me. You will see some more than others.

I love it. Listen, I learned seeing myself in other people and seeing that, you know, I love to think about somebody as huge and powerful physically as like the rock Dwayne, the rock Johnson. I love to think of him not in a sexual way, but at night he's like a little bit. Right. I know. Well, okay. But him, I like to think of him a huge, powerful man, like sleeping like a little boy in the fetal position, because at the end of the day,

We're all the same and we all have fears and anxieties and worries. But some more than others still. But some more than others still. True. Some fetal positions are smaller. Some fetal positions are more pathetic than others. That's true. Some balls are more tightly wound. That's right. Oh my Lord. What I've had to embrace is, I mean, a daily practice of gratitude. You know, I work a program. I have outreach. I have people I speak to, but

For myself, I've had to learn to take care of myself. And that means eating right. That means exercising. That means meditation, although it's really hard for me. But it's something that I have to do every day, at least a little bit.

Is there God in your life? Is there a spiritual practice? Like, what's your higher power for you? I guess I'd be so curious. I mean, that's what you went through is its own kind of trauma, you know, that kind of religious, meaning being excluded from a community that even though you had conflict about was your home. My mother was raised Orthodox, you know, Jewish Orthodox. And

you know, was effectively excommunicated and that, you know, that, that happens and it's its own trauma. So I wonder if you have a, you know, just a distaste for that. I mean, you're, you're very, you're, you're an adjacent member of the tribe as far as I'm concerned. Right. Well, the, the, the God's honest truth is I am working on it right now. Literally two weeks ago was the first time I've had a really honest conversation with my brother, my pastor brother about, um,

The abuse, that's the only other word I have for it because it was abuse in the church, in the school. I mean, they spanked us. As a dad now, I can't even imagine letting someone punish my children, let alone hit them, bend them over a man's knee. I mean, it's just like...

It blows my mind. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I mean, the stuff in this, in the church and I know I don't blame my parents. They, they, at the time it's what they thought was the best thing for us. But I'm talking as a 10 year old, they were, you know, cause evangelicals and, and pro-life, um,

Oh, God.

But it's about the rapture. And I remember being so terrified that I'm going to go into the living room or the kitchen and see my mom gone. Because that's what happens in this movie. This little kid goes out and his mom's making cookies and then the blender is blending, but she's not there because she's been taken.

But I haven't because I'm the sinner. I mean, it was so much fear. Honestly, two hours ago, I was in therapy with Jason. We're in couples counseling that started a couple of years ago. And it's just, it's so wonderful to be able to talk your shit out. And I have a lot of trauma from the church that is still clearly, I mean, I'm getting triggered just talking about it. And I was also going to say, you know, this is not to say that

All churches. I'm just like general disclaimer. This is not to say all church. This is not to say all, you know, this is, um, this is a very, very, I mean, honestly, I didn't even know this about you. I was randomly guessing, but what I will say, and also something that Jonathan and I talk about a lot, you know, it takes two things to make trauma. It takes a genetic predisposition and it takes an experience and you can have two children, even from the same parents, right? So those are the most genetically alike people, um,

They can have the same exact experience, but because of any differences in their template, you can have a completely different set of coping mechanisms, reactions,

we've done an episode, you know, on homosexuality. There's different, you know, people have different wiring and different chemistry. It's going to react differently. And that's not to say that every person who's gay, if you put them in a religious traumatic situation, we're allowed to be as different as fingerprints and snowflakes and all those things. But especially for a child who is sensitive, you know, this is when people ask me like, well, can I just hit my children a little bit? Here's what I say to them.

You don't know what template you got. You can hope that they'll be okay and think that they deserved it and that it was for their greatest good, but it is never, ever comfortable for the person who loves and protects you to cause you fear, terror, and shame and pain. Right.

Some kids, you know, will come out of it fine and others will be devastated forever. So I think it's incredibly, you know, brave of you. Also, I try and talk as much as I can, you know, about therapy. My appointment is after I talk to you. I try and...

encourage that and also encourage us to be astounded by a system of healthcare that leaves this kind of mental healthcare to the elite and to the people, obviously, you know,

Suicide affects you no matter if you're wealthy or poor. Mental health affects you whether you're wealthy or poor. However, if resources are given preferentially, you know, to people who can afford it, we don't have an equal system. So it's very, very, you know, it's very brave. And I'm very grateful to you, you know, even for sharing that you're in couples therapy. It shouldn't be something that's seen as a trend, you know, or something for the Hollywood elite, which I consider you part of.

To me, those are all the things. Like for me, that's self-care. You know, that's part of my self-care. It is. For us, for Jason and I, it is paramount. It helps us. We've been together...

Coming up on eight years, married six, and we have four-year-old twins, a boy and a girl. I knew that I wasn't, back in the day, luckily my ex-husband never wanted to have kids. So I just kind of thought, well, I'm not going to be a dad. But I knew intrinsically that I wasn't ready to have kids until I dealt with a lot of this shit. And I felt like I was ready. And then I met the person that I wanted to create a family with and we are in it.

We are in it to win it, whatever that means. I want to just be conscious of everything. I'm going to make mistakes. He's going to make mistakes. But we just, I want to just get out of their way. And I want to, they're both so incredible and complicated and who they're going to be. They showed us right off the bat.

Like Willow came out screaming and Ethan, Ethan was born in call. You know, a lot of people don't know, but in call. Yeah, really? Yeah. It's very rare. And it was so beautiful in your body. I mean, seeing him, him come out for people that don't know what that means, but you know, you're born with the, with the sack still intact. The membrane. Yeah. And, and he was like, it was like, he was,

a little alien child. We could see him before, you know, and then they, he, the doctor gently tore it open and then the M it was just beautiful. So yeah, I mean, therapy has helped us so, so much and we have to be able to, there has to be no conversation that we, that is off the table. We have to be able to talk about everything. And do we get into it? Of course we do. And pandemic,

I mean, brought everything to the surface. I mean, isn't it funny how it did that? Oh my Lord. And so many of our friends, it really made them or broke them. And, and unfortunately a few have broken because it's just brought to the surface, all of the things that were like, and we could just go away. And, but now being stuck under our, well, and I think a lot of people, you know, not just couples. And that was sort of why this became my quarantine baby, this podcast, because I,

For those of us who already knew we had challenges to our mental health,

This was like, how about if we then put you in a house and you can't leave and you don't know what information to trust, even coming from the CDC, because it seems like when the White House speaks to them, they say completely the opposite 20 minutes later. And then for people who thought they were okay, but the rest of us were like, one day you'll find out how messed up you are. Then you put them in a house by themselves and it just like all, you know, came to a head. And that was literally when...

I sort of decided like, I think this is like, this is what I want to dedicate. I mean, you know what hours I work with you. Um, this is, this is the hours that I work when I'm not there. I did have a kind of two last questions. Yeah. You know, the first is, is something that, that came up when I spoke to Grace Helbig, um,

who is a very popular online presence and YouTube personality. And part of her reason for embracing an online presence, she calls it comedy from home, is because of social anxiety. And she found a way to still get to be creative, but she gets to do it without having to go out and interact with people. But one of the things she talked about was being an attractive person and how people sometimes have a hard time

understanding that attractive people struggle too. And you said something really interesting that you didn't want people to look at you like you did want people to look at you. And, you know, I have this fantasy that like if I was the female version of Cheyenne Jackson, like everything would be fine. Like I would be fine. I would feel great. I would not wake up and not want to look in the mirror. I'd want to be like, look at,

at what I look like. That's amazing. I can wear anything in any store. Everything looks great on me. I will be the envy of other people. Not that I want people to envy, but meaning I won't constantly be the one wishing.

So that's my, you know, 10 year old mind. You know, when I first realized that I have a prominent nose, prominent chin and didn't have, you know, wasn't going to get breasts when everybody else did. What is that? Like, what is it for you? Because, you know, it's not like, oh, pretty people hurt too. You know, it's, it's not even that that's so, you know, banal, but you know, the notion that it is so much more an inside job. Um, but I think a lot of, a lot of men would say like,

Oh, this is, and I've, I've actually joked with you about that and feel terrible about it. I constantly make amends to you. Like, I think I've already emailed you like twice since I've met you. You have, you're so great. No, but I, but I have like, I have made jokes about that when I've been like, oh, it's so hard to be six, three and male and white, you know? He's six, four. He's almost six, four. It feels like six, four. Cause I hunch all the time. Well, they also give me boots there too. If you notice, I'm about six, five. Because if I looked like you, I'd wear boots.

Okay, so just speak to that a little bit, you know, in terms of like...

the impact of what I looked like on people very early. My brother was voted most handsome in school. My mom would constantly tell us how beautiful we were, our beautiful bone structure, your beautiful eyes. You hear something enough to where you think like, oh, that's what I have. That's my thing. I learned quickly that that was not all I had to offer, but I became a little bit too focused on that

Because I felt like, well, number one, I knew that it would get me in the door of certain places. But I also felt like I had to be extra prepared, do my job extra great. So it wasn't just like, oh, he got in because of what he looks like. I had to be prepared.

to do all the stuff and be super on time. And I have a really good work ethic. And I think it was a lot from having to try to prove myself that I was more than a face. But I also have major, you know, we can talk about that another time, but I have major image issues and body issues. And I think a lot, so many people do. I'm talking to more and more men in particular. You know, I came out, I came out,

It sounds silly, but I came out about having had hair transplants about six months ago on my Instagram because during... That's right. It was right when... I think it was right after we hired you. Yeah. Yeah, it was. And I was like, I couldn't tell. I don't care. Well, it's so funny because it's so funny you say that because I thought, oh shit. Like I just... Like there's this image that people have of you, but part of me, I had so much fear and anxiety. My brother, he lost his hair and he just shaved it off and he looks...

like Kelly Slater, the surfer, like he's gorgeous and has, you know, great skin. And, but I was just, I was playing leading men and on Broadway and I needed in my mind, I needed hair. So I like had five hair transplants and it was painful and it was expensive and I hid them. And every new job I would go to immediately go to the hair and makeup trailer. And I would close the doors and be like, you guys, I have to tell you a secret. And I would always lay it out. Like, it's this big fucking thing. Like I'm going to need so much. Listen,

I have hair transplants and they're all, they're all like, you know, hair and makeup people. They're like, okay, so what do you need? Some, some topics. And we'll do a little, I'm like, it's, it was, it was always way of a way bigger deal for me. So yeah, during COVID, I, when everyone was giving themselves haircuts, I was like, you know what? I'm going to,

buzz my hair. And then I have this massive scar on the back of my head. And I just thought, I just want to be free of this. And so I posted about it. It can be kind of became a thing. And some of it was negative because it looked like you can't win. You can not win. My intentions were pure to like, like shine a light on something that, and I have heard from thousands. I am not exaggerating thousands of people, mostly men, many of whom we know, um,

who have been like, thank you for talking about it. No one talks about it. So I bring this up because it's part and parcel. Why are you imitating my voice, bro? I bring it up because it's all germane to the image and what you feel like you have to put out there and that you are not

That's actually what I really love about this character on the show that we're creating, Max. He sees people for what they really look like. And I have tried to embrace that in my own life to see people's true selves and true inner beauty. Because some of the ugliest people I know are technically the most beautiful. Thank you, Shane. You know, you ain't right. It's...

It's not simply attractiveness. There's a lot of people who other people think are attractive who I don't. There's something about your personality that when you opened your mouth and when you read these lines, I was like, we were literally, this character was written to be the perfect man. The perfect man.

Meaning, he's handsome, he's charming, he's sexy, he's funny, and he's quirky. And when you opened your mouth, I was like, we found Max. Like, we found this character. And then someone was like, he's gay. I was like, no, he's not. They were like...

Yes, he is. I said, if he is, it doesn't, it's like, it doesn't even matter. For me, there's, there is not confusion about your character and how you are able to present in this character. And there's been so much conversation about who can play what part.

And, you know, which which way can this go? And, you know, I've been asked to speak, you know, for I spoke at USC about this, like, why do non-Jews play Jews and can Jews play non-Jews? And as my kids say, every character I play is Jewish because it's me. But some people seem more Jewish than others. Right. You know, you have to wear so many hats. You have to wear even more hats.

because you have an entire identity that is you as a gay person. That's who you are. It's, I would argue, it's who you've always been. It's who you're supposed to be. But also you get to play this part. Like, what is, like, do you think about it? Does the gay community think? Okay. So I want to know what you think about it. I have a lot to unpack here and let's just do it. Okay. First of all, I don't know if you know this, but, um,

You're really not gay. You're in love with me. We're going to get married. Okay. Actually, I've actually never, I was talking to Leslie. So he's, he's been with a woman. I haven't. So that's how, that's how gay I am. First time for everything. I always knew what I liked, what I was, who I was. When this part came around, when the audition came around, I took myself out of the running. It came to me and I thought they're not going to cast me in that.

I mean, I would, that's my dream. My dream is to be on something well-written, a multicam. I was coming off of long hours on American Horror Story and I wanted something light and bright and joyful. And I opposite you, you know, you, I've told you privately what you've meant to me in my life. So like, it was, it was too much for my little brain. I was like, I don't want to put myself through this pain of being in, you know, like going testing and things if it's not,

So I initially, even though I loved it and thought, I just said, they're not going to cast me in this. And my agent was like, go on the audition. You're perfect for it. And I was like, okay, great. I will, yes, I will take a look at this again. I will get into this again. I will open my- So why do you think we wouldn't cast? Like, what was it? Like, was there one thing? In my experience, my friends and I who are openly gay in the industry, and people that aren't even in the industry, but just-

we all have an internalized homophobia. And the first time I noticed mine was when I would meet somebody in my early 20s and halfway through a conversation, they would say, oh, I didn't know you were gay. And something inside me would be like, it made me feel good. Passing. Like I passed. I got away with something. And then I started to think, what the hell is that about? Why would that be

a good thing. Whereas I am very attracted to feminine men. My husband loves me. He does drag sometimes. He's beautiful. He's himself. I love that. That's what I'm attracted to. But in myself,

I'm always super hypercritical. And as somebody who has often played leading men opposite women, when I made the transition to television, there weren't a lot of us. Jim hadn't come out yet. Jim Parsons, Neil Patrick Harris hadn't come out yet. It was slim pickings. And so I often, to save myself pain, would just be like, eh, less and less. But then when this came,

I just thought, I don't, you know, it wasn't, it was very early stages when I was like, they're not going to cast me in that. I mean, it's a huge major Fox show and it's a network and,

And then I was in Washington, D.C., singing, and my manager said, Darlene Hunt would like to talk to you. And that had never happened to me before, a show creator calling me prior to an initial read. And I thought, oh, they're seriously considering me for this. It was actually my former manager who first brought up your name. Oh, really? Yeah, who put your name in front of us.

So it was, that was the fire that was lit in me. And I thought, well, there, there's obviously some real interest. So this is,

is my ultimate, this is my dream scenario. So don't take yourself out of it. You've been brave before be brave again. So I, I worked so hard on this read. I was staying with my friends in New York and I, for hours, I wanted to kind of embody who this person was. I knew it. I felt it. It was like, ah, it's, and sometimes when things feel really good, it doesn't go the way you think it is, but I, because there's so much at stake, but I remember you were in LA. I

I was in New York. Right. We did it on a Zoom, I think, or some sort of video chat. This was before COVID. Yeah. And it was the initial read. And I felt prepared. I felt open. And I did the thing. And you were kind of in the background. And then I didn't see you. And then you came across. And you just did two thumbs up. And then you got out of frame. And then we had our...

Then we had the test. Again, I got butterflies when you walked by. Oh, I have to say, that was the most fun was...

getting to show you off, you know, to the executives because every woman in the room and a few of the men were like, what just happened? Who's that man? What was that? Like it's, but like I told you, like it's your energy, like it's your smile, it's your energy. And so many guys didn't know how to play this. It's like, they don't know how to be a man, like how to be a, you know, a funny and a gentle and like sexy, but also not like weird person.

It was just, you nailed it. It has been a dream. It truly has been a dream come true. And I felt the connection between you and I in the room. And I knew that I knew it was going to be the most fun. And it is. Interestingly, I've gotten some messages and such on social media from people in the gay community who have a problem with me playing this part. And yeah,

It's very fascinating to me. I understand it. There is a certain group of people who think that gay people should only play gay people. It's fascinating. A prominent gay actor just came out, Wentworth Miller, who said he only wants to play gay people. And great, if that's what you'd like to do. I have never put myself in a box.

And I am certainly not going to let anyone else put me in a box. I love that. I play Hades, Lord of the Underworld on the Disney Channel. I'm not really a Lord of the Underworld who steals souls, but I can pretend I am. And this is a bigger thing. This is actually a good thing that I'm playing this part. I would agree. This is an important thing. And the fact that you guys...

I'm sure there were discussions about it. I'm sure people were like, well, how gay is he? And then what is his, like, there is a definitely, uh,

it's a, it's a, it's a sensitive area and I, I respect it. I understand. And I just, I applaud. I mean, I just, I, I love our whole cast also because, you know, you and Leslie are both, you know, gay and fabulous. And, you know, we have Julian and Kyla who like, also we got to know them in the middle of Black Lives Matter and just learning about them and their lives. And, you know, I love that Swoozie as the white female, the wasp is the,

minority, you know? She is outnumbered by our queerness and our otherness, and it's really just super awesome, and

We do. We have a very good time, not just because we have to, because we have no one else to interact with. We're also making a show about really unusual people. These are people who are more like the people I hang out with, I think, even in The Big Bang Theory. So it's really, I don't want to take up more of your time, but I thank you so, so much. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Mayim, for having me here, letting me tell the story.

You know, you're only as sick as your secrets. And the more secrets I let out and the more I talk about my anxieties and my fears and my feeling weird, you know, it just it lessens that. Yeah. Super awesome. All right. Shabbat shalom. All right. See you guys. I like his big Midwestern face. I like his big Midwestern face. Cowboy face. That's what she said. Who?

play and then Tina Fey sees you and is like, here, you want to, like, that's an unbelievable story. I would like to gauge your interest. High. It's very high. Tina, it's very high. He's also, you know, it's funny because he does, he seems very confident. I mean, I can't imagine you being the only person that tall who doesn't always seem so confident. I'm shorter than he is. You feel about his height to me. I don't think feeling is how you measure height.

Yes, everyone's height is determined by how I feel. That's not, is that the clinical diagnosis of some sort? He looks so confident. Like he, you know, he's a big guy. Like he's a very, like he's got big hands. He's like, he's like a big guy. And he definitely has like a cowboy ranch kind of feel. Is it wrong to say that? Yes, whatever you're about to say is wrong. If Max was written as the perfect man for,

It doesn't seem incongruous that it takes a gay guy to play him properly. Wow. I think we should probably cut that out. When I said that we wanted this character to be a perfect man, I didn't mean that it's because he's gay and there's something about that. It is a woman's fantasy of a man who... He's not feminine. He's not overly chat. Like, he's a dude. He's a dude. But what I mean is that he's...

you don't have to choose with him. You know, you don't have to choose, do I want the guy who looks great and is that, you know, kind of like physical package of like being on his arm? Do I have to choose between that and smart and funny? As our culture has got

gotten in many ways more misogynistic. It's hurt men too, you know, and we've set up this kind of dichotomy also for men where there is this notion of like, are you this guy or are you that guy? Which, you know, had previously been reserved for women. Like, are you attractive or are you smart? So I think that that's really what Darlene wrote when she wrote Max. And we had so much trouble finding this guy. And I kept saying, I'm looking for someone rugged. There's a lot of very, very attractive men who are actors.

And they're very good actors. But I kept saying, I want someone rugged, like someone who looks like a Midwest, you know, cowboy.

We found him. Another thing that he was talking about is, and just felt so powerful, is that conflict between the family community beliefs and the personal and how you're wedged in between those seems like an impossible position. And to see his transition out of that to finding his place is so beautiful. Oh, I mean, that story in Mexico. And I mean, just also, you know, it takes someone who's been in a lot of therapy and a lot of recovery to be able to describe his experience the way he did. He had so many mind-body...

experiences that he described. He described feeling that like tension in his chest, even recounting the story. Honestly, I do think that is because he's a very specific kind of performer. And this is the thing. I am not that kind of performer. Like, you know, I can sing a little bit. I can dance a little bit. Like I'm an actor. This is a man who can hold a stage with hundreds of people

singing with a booming, beautiful voice. Also so humble to be like, oh, because of the music I listened to, I can sing baritone and tenor. No, honey, that's because you're born with a gift.

He was born with a gift. Even his speaking voice is well-trained. Like he said, he can't speak. I mean, he does all the things that I'm supposed to do that I don't. But the last episode we filmed, we had to be shouting over the rooftops of Louisville. You know, when I shouted, you could tell. Like, I could only do a couple takes before my ENT would be like, Mayim, I can feel across the city that you're going to blow out your vocal cords. And when he does his yelling, it's like,

It sounds like he could do that forever because he could because he has a trained voice and knows how to use it. And you two sing together actually on a few episodes. We do sing together. We do a karaoke episode and he also like also super humble like he also is a piano player and he let me play the piano for our karaoke numbers but

I mean, singing with someone like that, you know, and he's so sweet. Like, even when I clearly did a terrible take, he'd be like, it sounds great. I really think it was a good take. So he lied to you. He lies, yeah. Like a good husband. No, but what I mean... No, he's supportive of our process, you know, as a team. And we also got to do a special effects where we were flying on a green screen. We got to be in these harnesses and just, like, so much fun. And we just...

We've been really having a good time. And it's true. We definitely have a connection. We have a lot in common. We're very similar in some really sweet ways. And yeah, I just... I think he's a really inspiring person. He's also, you know, very public. I mean, not like super public with his kids, but like he posted a picture on Thanksgiving that like, I mean, just...

He's got like a makes your heart melt smile with his husband and their kids. It's just like, it's lovely. And he works his butt off for that. Like to say, like, I mean, just...

Sure, I want them to have that forever. But even to be eight years in, like, you know, that's, it's really powerful. Anyway, I have nothing else to say because he said it all and he's a lovely, lovely human. And that's, it's just, I'm so grateful that he and that Leslie shared and that we're going to have our other members of our cast come and share aspects of their experience. Before we go, let's do Ask Mayim Anything. Ask me anything, Jonathan. Hey.

Ask Mayim anything. Yeah. Jonathan, I think for today's Ask Mayim anything, we have, I believe, our first audio recording. We do have an audio recording. And she has an accent.

Very exciting, let's play it now and hear what Mayim has to say. Hi Mayim, Rose here. I have a question about ADD or Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. I was diagnosed late as an adult when seeking support for my anxiety. I was told my anxiety stemmed from issues with concentration caused by ADD and that as someone who is essentially high functioning all I needed was some meds to keep me focused. I left the doctor thinking that concentration issues were all ADD did

Surprise turns out was not the case. And that is so much more to ADD than I ever imagined. And it impacts not only anxiety, but many other delightful personality traits. My question is, why do you think adult ADD is so poorly understood and discussed? What are the ways in which can impact a person more broadly? And how can it be treated successfully? You know, adult ADD is one of those like unhappy surprises. It's like if you don't like a jelly donut.

and you bite into it, and you thought it wouldn't have jelly inside, it's like, oh, that's kind of what adult-diagnosed ADD is. I think in many cases it was there when we were younger. It's really only with our more modern and current understanding of what that diagnosis means that we can put it on people.

So I'm a person who many would never think I would meet this kind of diagnosis. But as I told you when we started, I've got just about everything there is in one way or another. The reason that it's so poorly misunderstood is that it's very hard to tell the difference between it and other things because we are a spectrum of chemicals and experiences.

I have a very difficult time going to the supermarket and it's gotten worse as I have gotten older. Definitely got worse after my significant car accident, which I, you know, had several years of recovery and multiple surgeries for. It definitely has gotten worse. I thought it was because, I mean, I'm kind of the opposite of Rose. I thought it was because I'm anxious. I'm socially anxious. I don't want to deal with people. I'm like, oh, and then I became famous and like that makes it harder. No, no.

With more examination and more working this through, specifically in talk therapy, I have a set of physical sensations that overcome me when I am in a situation where there's too much stimulus.

By definition, we put ADD on that because what it is is it's the inability to filter appropriately. So I am a person who has a doctorate. I'm a person who learns, you know, 50 pages of a script every week. I vaguely run a household. I do many things, but many things are hard for me. Filling out forms.

fascinatingly difficult for me. Does it mean I can't do it? No, but it means that it sometimes makes me cry and I never knew why. I didn't know why. And I only found out, I think after my father died, that he had the same thing.

And he would act like he knew a lot of things because he didn't want to have to read the form and the thing. And, you know, I dealt with a lot of paperwork after he died that I realized he was limited. Like it wasn't just that he was lazy or that he was incompetent or stupid. We have this thing. So improperly diagnosed, misdiagnosed because it does look like a lot of other things. And many of us compensate.

We do. We compensate. We get a friend to help or we've learned tricks. We've learned tools. Sometimes I have to pretend things are like a game and like it's literally just like a shift of the lens and then I can try and tackle it. I try to go to smaller grocery stores. So the way that I get around it, I go to smaller grocery stores or I only go to one grocery store where I always know everything that's going to happen there and I go at odd times. I mean my children know. Like we will sometimes go – like when they were younger and I couldn't leave them at home, it's like –

It's 7 a.m. Put your shoes on. You're going in your PJs. This is the only time I will go to the supermarket. If you'd like to eat, get in the car. So, yes, we compensate. So that's part of it. The second thing that Rose asked was how does it manifest? So, yeah, it'll look like that. I mean, I'm literally speaking from my experience. It'll look like I don't like malls. Certain lights will – I'm also light sensitive.

all the things. But for me, it's not necessarily related to ADD, but the sensations that I feel when I'm in a crowded place, like a flea market, something like that, it, I cannot filter. And if there's weird lights or a lot of music plant, forget it for get it. Fred had this, my little one, when we took him to New York for the first time, he was of walking age. And we, the first time we put him down to like across the street, he stopped the

The child stopped moving. And we're like, what is wrong with him? The amount of sound coming in. I don't know that this child has ADD. That's not what I'm saying. But there's a filtering thing that I clearly passed on to him. So it can look like those things. And what Rose was describing is certain things that she may have thought were ADD

Actually could come from... Anxiety. An anxiety diagnosis too. And anxiety and ADD can really represent two sides of a similar coin. Correct, but I never thought of it like that. I had an aunt who got diagnosed with adult ADD and she tried taking her...

ADD medication, which we are not recommending. No, no. But she was like, oh, wait a second. Yeah, so what people report, and people with more severe features of ADD do report that a little bit, it's a stimulant because it forces you to focus better. People do report things like, oh my God, is this what it's like for other people? It's kind of like, my father didn't know he needed glasses, I think, until he was like 18 or something. And he said it was like, what?

happening. Like...

I thought it was supposed to look like that. That's what people do report. However, it is a very strong drug. It is a drug with a lot of side effects, especially for little ones. It messes, which is also attractive to certain people, it messes with your appetite. It is not an insignificant drug. You should not take anyone else's medication. I'm just going to say that. What can be done? Yes, medication is one thing. Depending on the severity, many people do kind of

kind of live, you know, and it's just one, it becomes one of our, one of our quirks and one of our challenges. And there are other resources and we can list those on the website. There's medication, of course. There's also just coping mechanisms, like you said, where if you know that going to the grocery store at 12 is going to be horrible. Those aren't coping mechanisms. Those are workarounds, you know. The difference being?

A coping mechanism is a system that is put in place with a kind of set of compensatory behaviors as opposed to avoiding the issue altogether and just going when it's quiet. I don't know. To me, let's have a vote online on this one. Well, no, but what I'm saying is like,

There are not always options to not go. For sure. So for me, I need to have coping mechanisms for when I do need to go to Disneyland with my children. It is often painful. I have wept more than once at Disneyland simply from overwhelm. The things that I get to do are know that I need to take breaks.

know that I need to control what I can. Have a list of where you're going? Sometimes, but my ex-husband, he's like an expert. He's got like a thing and he's got all these clauses for what he does if something's not, that's not my thing. But- That's not the reason you're not together. That's not the reason we're not together. No, but for me, knowing that I don't need to participate in every single ride, every single experience. I have-

found myself sitting alone and it's a small world sometimes because there's a, there is a quiet little nook there before you get to Looney Tunes. And, um, I don't need to participate in everything because I get overwhelmed and that's okay. Rose, thank you for your question. Thank you so much, Rose. For anyone else who wants to ask Mayim anything, go to Bialikbreakdown.com. That's B-I-A-L-I-K. Breakdown.com. We do everything together. Even say the name of our website.

From my breakdown to the one that I hope you never have and to the one that you might think I'm going to have when I turn my back on this camera. We'll see you next time. It's my and Bialik's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or dictionary. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.

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