776. He Won’t Commit? Here’s the HARSH Truth About Avoidant Men with Mark Groves
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Hello.

You know, what's crazy is like, there's, I was actually thinking about this yesterday. There's so many things that I laugh about. And I would be like an example in Jenna Zoe's podcast that I did align. Jenna's one of our dear friends and she's just the best. So I was on a line podcast talking about her book.

And in it, I was like, I'm an alien. Like I just was saying, I'm like, I'm not from this planet. I'm an alien. And I laugh about it and I joke, but like, I'm like serious. You know, it's like, so sometimes you say stuff here that'd be like, Oh yeah. Like I'd be like, Oh, I'm an alien. They're like, ha ha. And I'm like, ha ha. And then I'm like, ha ha. But even like a good morning, like with word magic, I'm like, I do believe that words hold weight and power, but then there is the other side of it where you're like, okay,

Totally. It's both. It's both. It's totally both. It's both. It's both. Well, I think that with most like health, wellness, spirituality decisions I make day to day where I could like pull out and be like, okay. Yeah. But also I care about it. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. But it's funny because there's such a range of, you know, it kind of, you go down the scale. An example would be, you know, years ago you might be like, I'm going to sleep with my phone next to my head.

And then you kind of move further down. You're like, my phone's going in another room. Yes. And that just becomes grounded in like, this is not, it's not even like, you know, you're like, no, that's just, it is. Yep. So it's almost like you keep moving along where you're like, words are magic. You're like, ha ha. And then eventually you're like, words are magic. Dude, sleeping with your phone was crazy. I honestly, I know if people still do it, but like, I can feel it when it's close to me. You know what it was though?

Actually, when I was sleeping with my phone, it was my room phone. So it wasn't my cell phone. Your landline? I had a landline room phone when I was like... That's when I would... Like in high school, when I would talk to my boyfriend, I would talk to a friend like late at night. It would be my actual like cordless room phone, which...

I don't think as EMFs. It's not like a cell phone. It's not connecting to a cell tower. It's like connected to the cable. Maybe it has a little something, but it wasn't, I wasn't putting my cell phone underneath my pillow. Yeah. Cause I guess the wifi is what it's always picking up on and connecting with. So yeah, that's a good point. I didn't have a phone in my room. Did you? Yeah. At like spoiled.

16. Spoiled rotten brat. 16. Spoiled rotten slut brat. Yeah. Big, big slut. It was a privilege. I had rules around it, but I still remember the phone number to this day. What was the number? 215-321-4612. Hopefully it doesn't work. You know how we all knew each other's phone numbers? My phone number was 336-7222.

that's an easy one that's an angel number yeah i was actually young age actually i said i was 10 i said please angel numbers only i said i need my boyfriends to call my house with angel numbers oh dude it was funny you knew all your friends numbers i still know them oh yeah like yeah i know like two or three of them i mean the amount of time i just like wonder if our parents thought like

I'm worried about them being on the phone. Because I... Say less. If I had a teenager right now and they were on the phone talking to a friend for two hours at night, I would create a boundary. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. My parents let me do it. They had boundaries around time and stuff or how late. But I'm like...

I would kind of crack down. Yeah, me too. Like you need a hobby. Yeah. Like let's get creative at night. Like let's, or, or let's read. Yeah. Let's read. Want to stretch? Yeah. You're like, get it. You're like, get on my temp mat. I need you in front of a red light. Reading. Dude, reading like Joe Dispenza. Yeah. But it's funny to talk about it now. Cause you can, it's like,

Can you trust that that's something just developmentally they might need to realize is like staying up late at night, talking, talking that long, whatever. It's like not building anything in your brain. It's not helping you, but you don't realize it until this age. No, I mean, I agree. I know. I think what was interesting too, is I'm confused of what we were talking about.

How did we have that much? I have no idea. Because if you think about it in dating world, two hours a date is great. Me, my minimum's three, even if I hate them. I'm going to push it to the limit because I'm like, I cannot...

I'm uncomfortable if we go less than three. I like feel weird. Totally. You're like, I need you to like fall deeply in love with me, even though I don't want to see you again. Yes. I'm like, I will keep this going. Yeah. And, but so, but I'm like, okay, so if every night you were literally on a two hour date on the phone to our phone call and you must've known a lot about them. I also think like some of it was like not talking. It was like doing things. No, I completely, no, I remember that. Yeah. You'd be like cleaning your room or like,

painting your nails yeah and it's just they'd be there talking about the day at school your crushes other people i think a lot of mine was just gossip gossip gossip rings of like whoa did you hear she said this and she said this and did you see her like him doing this yeah wow it was like so stressful honestly the most stressful years of my life were seventh and eighth grade

Yeah, actually same. I've never been lower in life. Yeah. Eighth grade was the worst year of my life. Like developmentally, actually. We should look at that. I actually talked to someone, one of my clients the other day was like, Oh, I love seventh and eighth grade. I'm like, what? I feel like, I wonder what the average age of women getting their periods is. Oh, you did not just say, Oh, you're on your period. A lot of bitches running around. Yeah.

But seriously, the hormonal shift. Yeah, I know. For real. Are you kidding me? And then also a lot of like anxiety and shame around like bleeding to death in school. Yeah. Did you ever bleed in your stuff? Oh, yeah. Because I didn't wear a tampon for a couple of years. I was like, I couldn't put it in. I was scared. So I wore like... You would. I literally put pads on pads. I would wear two pairs of underwear. But I was in a uniform. So it wasn't like...

And it was all girls. It was all girls. But I mean, that was like horrendous. Like, but just that added to like girls just being, you know, savage and terrible. Yeah. I mean, for the most part. Yeah. I think that actually was, there had to have been a hormonal shift during that time. I think it was period time. Yeah. There was just so much triangulation and like,

Crazy. I remember I had this, my triangle was Tori and Chelsea, my girls who I love to this day idea, but we would just toss the ball of who's the, who's the villain. Who's the, yeah. Yeah. Who's the victim? One week I'm the villain and I've talked shit and they like each other more than me. And then the next week I've, I'm telling her about the one thing she said about her. So she's on my side. Did you ever lie about anything anyone ever said? Oh, and make it up? Yeah. That's a good question. Um, I don't know. I don't think, but I can't say that it didn't. Yeah.

What was my bag, though? I would say I was more the... I mean, I could talk some shit back then. Yeah. It was pretty unintegrated. I was like 10. Totally. You know. I just lost my voice completely. Oh, you did? I did not speak for like a whole year. Kind of. Yeah, I hear you. I did not speak in school. I would fight back. I wish I fought back. Like, I wish I could just... Like, if I could go back, I would definitely...

speak my truth. There was this girl who was like, we were in the parking lot in Ohio. This is like what would happen in Ohio. And I was like hanging out with her boyfriend. That was like my bag was like hanging out with everyone's boyfriends. And she like, we were in the parking lot and she was sitting on top of this truck and she goes, you have cellulite on the back of your legs to everybody. And I go, nice tits, Jess. She had no tits.

Didn't miss a fucking beat. Damn. And then I literally fasted for the next four years. And then my eating disorder began. Yeah, I mean... But it was actually crazy because I was wearing really short shorts and I did have cellulite. Not that cellulite's a problem, but I was like, I didn't know that there was a back of me that existed. I was like, I'm just in this mirror. Also, like...

The whole cellulite thing, we don't, you know, it's like people think it's because of one thing, but cellulite is so genetic. It's so dependent on your skin, the whole, the layers. I mean, I didn't have a pound of muscle on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I was just like a little gummy bear. So I didn't really know, but I would, I mean, the way that I fought back.

Yeah, that's a good, that's a quick one. Would freak people out. Yeah, I wish I had some shit in the bag. They wouldn't even be done. They'd be like, oh, Chris, I'm gonna go back. Dude, because it's so combative. I'm just taking out like all my anger from my house. Oh, yeah. So combative. I'm sure that felt good, though. Yeah, it did, actually. It always felt good to fight back. Yeah. I'd be looking for it. Talk shit, I'd be like, talk shit, get hit. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Oh, so you were violent. I never fought. I never fought, but I just, yeah. I could see you fighting. I could see you like taking your purse and like doing a big wound up circle. There was a girl that my first, my first of many boyfriends that have cheated on me, my first boyfriend that cheated on me with this girl, we met each other at the church fair and

And we were both in the church fair and we were both, we were talking shit to each other and we were like in a circle, like we were going to fight.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And everyone was gathering around. They were literally gathering around. Wow. And I didn't fight her. That's good. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't have known what to do. That would have been too much. Like put up your dukes. That was so. Put up your dukes. I was about to square up. And I was like, you're a gutter slut. A gutter slut? Isn't that crazy? That's the weirdest. It's all over. I had weird funds. I like don't know what shows I was watching where I was getting weird, weird.

Weird insult. One time with my grandma when I was younger, she was like, we were at the dinner table and my grandma was like,

talking shit to my dad about something with my parents and I was like how could you be so brash I was like 10 I like I was like dude this word's gonna be crazy like I just learned this one I was like get ready when I drop brash everyone's gonna be like oh she knows what she's talking about I just was like yeah I'm Ohio was a trip yeah man it was a trip

I'm glad I've grown. I love high schoolers. I don't think, I went to high school. Bullying is probably online now. Yeah, which is, I think, in some ways worse. I think worse, 100%. You know? I cannot imagine what that would be like. People have the balls to say what they wouldn't say in person online.

And then also there's just a way to make things viral very quickly, like viral in a school, you know what I mean? And anonymous. And anonymous. That's the biggest thing is I think when you're in person, you just are saying something to their face. So now if you're anonymous, you make anonymous profiles. I cannot, I mean, people made anonymous AIMs when we were younger. Yes. And now with AI and now with like, you know, you can erase anything. You can like

put text together and make it look like you said something. You know what I mean? Just like all that stuff. I don't know if people are really spending time on that, but that's possible. I think it's going to become easier and easier. I know. I agree. Speaking of AI, um, today we have Mark Groves on the podcast. Speaking of AI, Mark Groves on the podcast. Tell me more. Exactly. He's actually AI. So Mark Groves isn't a person. It's actually, no, this was my transition that is very loose and

But the transition was he talks about censorship and he's actually very interested in the impact of social media on creators, on influencers and on people. Yes. He recently took a break. Yeah. He took a break from social media for a while. And it is very interesting how, you know, social media has this specific reward system that makes us addicted. It's almost like this abusive relationship, which is what we talked about a little bit on the podcast. So Mark Rose is founder of Create the Love. He's a friend.

Um, he's an amazing speaker facilitator. Uh, and in this conversation, we talked about relationships. We talked about, um, you know, social media and its impact on people. And we just had like a really vulnerable, you know, friend conversation that I'm excited for you guys to listen to. It just feels like friends talking, but also very helpful. Yeah. The day we recorded that, it felt very special. I don't know. We recorded something for his podcast and then for ours, I was like, Oh, we really, we really went there. Like both of our pods in very different ways. Um,

Um, but a dear friend and someone I feel like that we've gone to for relationship advice recently too. Oh yeah. I did. I did once. Yeah. And then I stopped nothing about him, but then I was like, I don't trust anybody. But even just like to have someone like that, where it's like, if we have some, even if it's not personal where he knows the person, but it's like nice to just bounce some shit off of her. Sure. Oh yeah. We were even talking about my relationship here.

Um, a little bit too. Um, yeah, I just have recently decided, you know what? I've recently decided actually this week, I'm no longer sending screenshots of conversations to my friends. Why? Um, besides me, besides you when necessary is that that's not wife vibe. Oh yeah, totally. That's not a wife. Totally. I mean, my whole rule is

Me and Sean talk about shit well before I say anything to anyone. For sure. It's hard. Because you want to. Yeah. But it's like, just feels leaky. Yeah. And my other thing, I just don't, I've never have done this because I don't like anyone to tell me what to do, but I don't get relationship advice from people online. You don't know.

Look at her. You don't know me. Well, I think you just have to be discerning too. If you are like on Instagram or TikTok and you follow people that give great relationship advice, just know that not every piece of advice is going to be for you. That's what it is. I have to know you. Like Mark says so great because it's so integrated and he lives such a beautiful relationship and he's gone through so much and he's so honest. But I think...

I just, what I'm seeing, I guess that I'll say is so many women that I know just consuming TikTok and reels of relationship stuff from people that aren't actually living the advice that they're saying. They're like, he should be buying you everything. And you're like, um, is your man like even coming home at night? Yeah. Like, it's like, what are you talking about? Like if we're all living in the advice that you guys are all saying, then like every relationship is, you know what I mean? I'm like, how many of you are actually living the relationship you're talking about? Yeah. When people say that they're like, oh,

on that, you know, TikTok relationship tip, I'm like, oh, wow. Like, it's just so much, it's like a talk track over and over and over and you can easily get into like believing something about your dating experience that isn't true, whether it's like, there are no good men out there or like whatever it is. I think,

You should be talking to your therapist, giving them all the context in the world that you can so that you can get kind of a more integrated personal if you're going to seek relationship advice. Yeah. You know what I mean? Or someone who you can give specific details to so it's more contextual rather than trying to self-diagnose or whatever. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

I completely agree. I'm excited for you guys to listen. We were also on Mark's episode, Mark's podcast as well. So you can listen to our episode on Mark Groves, search Mark Groves, almost 30 and you'll find it. Um,

Um, and thank you, Mark. We love you so much. You can find Mark at create the love. Mark has coaching and programs, and he's an amazing relationship expert that has true embodied insight. And then also he speaks about censorship, you know, which is really fascinating. So we love you. Thank you for getting the book and writing reviews. It's been so fun to read the reviews. We had the most beautiful review I was reading today of someone that, um, wrote about the fact she was in her forties and she's like, I'm in my forties, but everything still applies. And just to see like how people, um,

are taking in the book and just recognizing how meaningful it is and helpful it is. And we just put so much love. So getting the book now it's available for you. And then morning microdose is our second channel. It's our clips channel. So it's ad free. You basically listen to clips of the best of the best of almost 30. So highly recommend that almost 30 podcast on Tik TOK on Instagram, more information, almost 30.com. You can find me on Instagram at it's Krista. And I'm at Lindsay. Some sick. All right. We love you all. Love you.

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You know, always follow that feeling. Yeah. Because we get so lost in the future. Is he going to be my king versus is he right now the right choice? And these other things are revealing themselves in the connection of the things that you're talking about that you desire. But sometimes we desire things from a safety perspective or perceived safety perspective rather than from an authentic place. So it's like wounds are trying to create guards.

And so if we can trust... I always thought if you're feeling like, I want to go on the next date, that's all you need to know. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I agree. What would you say to someone who's like, but I don't want to waste time with someone who's not my person? I feel like a lot of women feel that way. Well, you shouldn't waste time with someone who's not your person. But I guess you have to do the things in order to know whether they are? Well, I think if you're...

If you know they're not your person, that's different than being uncertain about if they are. That's what I mean. You know, so trusting that there's more to be revealed. And a lot of the times people date from this place that, oh, I met this person and they're the one. And so they then go tell other friends and they're excited. I had this dream. We got married and blah, blah, blah, blah. But what ends up happening is they've already left discernment. So they've left choice.

And so the way they're, and now they've got to go, we talked about that on my podcast. You then have to go walk back all the titles you gave to somebody. And that's humble pie. Oh my, that's a big dish of a shit sandwich. But you realize that someone needs to, over time, become a viable choice.

Do you know what I mean? Because more gets revealed about them. And isn't that really what discernment is all about? Because if you've been dating someone, I remember I used to think that if I was dating someone for three, four months and we were in a committed relationship, I'm like, I guess that's it. No, that's what it's scary. I think, or what do you guys feel about this? I think now that I'm older, I feel like the next person I call my boyfriend will be my husband and then my baby daddy. And I'm like, oh, that feels like such a title. Yeah.

Well, I think choose at the level that that importance is riding on it, but also not use it as a way to block. I know. Because now if you then I'm like, oh, he's my boyfriend. Fuck. Now I got to do all these things that I said I was going to do. So just have space in the way you define it. Yeah. And the way you dialogue. There's something about how the nervous system needs the certainty. Yes. But really what you're doing is bypassing that it's not certain. Yes.

And also, if you're someone who always presents uncertainty where there is actually choice, you're just trying to ease your nervous system so that it doesn't feel... Let's say an example of that. So where right now you're like, this guy is actually a great fit. Very great, yeah. Yeah. And then you go into all the details about why you might not be. That's a good one. Yeah, so what you're really doing is...

through telling us that, creating space for yourself so you don't feel stuck in a prison. Literally. Yeah. When you're not. And that's why Rumi's great quote, like, why do you stay in the prison when the door is right there? There's nothing that choice can't be made. Like, you have access to it. But when we witness parents stay together, when we witness society shame people who break up, you were married before. So when we witness those things, we think, well, once it starts and the train gets going, you're not allowed to get off.

Think about what it means for a woman, for a relationship to end. So much of a woman's values is obviously not in that, but is perceived to be in that. That's why women are the ones who caretake relationships more. They're more emotional. They're more relational. They're better barometers of relational health for survival. Makes sense. Yeah. It's not like I'm, I don't know if I'm like sunk cost fallacy with relationships, but I do am like, okay, if I'm investing a lot of time, it's, I need to be, I think I'm,

What I've done a lot in dating is what I've been getting out of it is like not equal where I'm like getting entertainment. It's like feeding a part of me, like a performative part of me. And only recently has it fed more of like my soul and like who I am and my growth. And so I just get nervous of...

Going too far in and yeah, not being able to get out or something. It's weird. It's like it matters now. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it matters. And cause I care about this person. That sounds great. Yeah. It's great. You're not allowed in that. Yeah. We're not going to let you. Yeah. No, she's scared. Where's the door? Yeah. Honestly, that's what's weird about me is I didn't know I was like this until recently. I was like, Oh, I didn't know. I was like, avoid it.

Well, your guys' relationship, does that trigger you, the avoidance that she has? It's funny, we've done both. Yeah, we've done both where there have been seasons of our relationship. Yeah, that's real. In the beginning of our relationship, when we were just starting the podcast and the business, I was very anxiously attached and she was very avoidant, would you say? And that showed up in...

You know, Krista was very adept with like creating a business and kind of knowing what to do, how to write the email. And I was like this like creative little bird flying around being like, well, how can I be valuable here? And I actually don't feel like I'm valuable. Do I even matter? Do you even need me here?

And so I was very anxious. She was, yeah, just kind of like, why are you being like this? I was kind of like, you have to earn... Because when people get into the anxious role with me, if I'm being avoidant, I kind of get like, you have to earn my love a little. And I kind of like get approving where I get a power in having people prove. But I definitely have been anxious with you for sure. Yeah. I think it's... I don't know when it's... I was kind of trying to track that because I remember periods of...

being in therapy or being doing work where I was just like so anxious about Lindsay and just probably, it's probably when in therapy, I worked on my anxious and natural with you and I became a little different. You became secure. And then I was like, fuck, where's she going? And it just, I remember this feeling of,

You know, I think at that point in time in my life, I had my anchors outside of me. I had my ex-husband, I had you, and I maybe had one other friend, that friend left, that friend left. And then all I had was Lindsay as my external anchor point. And so I just was like, oh my God, if this goes away, I don't know what's going to happen. If this changes or transforms, I don't know what's going to happen. And I remember the period when that shifted, when I was like, actually, I'm completely okay. And, and

And it was so beautiful because I did that with all my female relationships. I think after my marriage ended where I would take any power back that any of them had over me or anybody had over me in my life, over my happiness and created this really beautiful, secure with everyone. And I think our relationship was a huge part of that. But I think in romantic relationships, I've definitely flip-flopped. I don't think I was anxious. I've had anxious periods. I think

because I was in a situation with someone that was so avoidant, it almost trained me to be avoidant. And I now tend to be more avoidant than I think I've ever been. Like it was almost like I was maybe anxious at points of our relationship over the 10 years, but it was so deeply avoidant and other patterns that I couldn't have been anxious. I would have killed, like I would have died. And so I had to become avoidant of self. You had to disassociate. I had to disassociate really to survive. And so now that's more of my pattern. And I'll be honest, like,

I don't know how you feel about this, but like, I tell you what, this could be distorted and like, bless. Men love avoidant women so much more than they love anxious women. What do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, it creates... The trick with avoidance is that it creates the perception of high self-worth. Yeah. Even though it's really trying to avoid emotional enmeshment. That's a good one. So like my wife is more avoidant. Yeah. And what I noticed because I'm more prone to being anxious is that...

I can get hypervigilant about her facial expressions or the way she's... But also if I become emotionally needy, I can see that sometimes there's almost... Avoiding people really develops sometimes a sense of disgust, anxiety at emotional neediness. And it's not that they're actually disgusted by it. It's that the experience, the emotional experience of disgust creates distance, right? Because if you see that in my face, you're gonna be like, oh shit, what did I do? And...

then you might try to get more into the repair, repair, repair. But really what the avoidant person's not wanting to do is to be responsible for someone else's feelings. And so really, if you think about it, anxious and avoidant people are very similar. They just relate to insecurity in opposite ways. That's why all soulmates really...

match us so much in that. Like I think of the friends that I've most grown from, although the secure ones who have great conversations with you and create emotional safety are amazing. The ones who trigger your attachment style. Yes. Right. It's so good for you. It sounds so fucked up, but it is good for you if you're both willing to take responsibility for how you impact each other. And I think the reason people in general are attracted to avoidant people is because there is a

When someone is confident and is being sought by lots of mates, they don't have time for just one. So they don't act from a place of scarcity. So it's like that's what pickup artistry taught. Yeah. Is here's how to pretend that you have high self-worth and you're a high value mate. Yeah. By negging. Do you remember negging? No. It's so crazy. It's like you insult. You insult. Like you'll be like, wow, I love your hair. Like.

It looks a little too long. Mm-hmm.

So it's like the compliment and then the thing. So you're like, wait, so you lean in, but then you're also like, feel like you have to earn it. So you kind of want to earn the nice compliment. Especially for beautiful women, because really, if you think about it, this I know can trigger people, but it's true, is that beautiful women don't get as much negative social feedback. So when they get negative social feedback, they're so used to men not telling them the truth because the men are trying to get them that when a man tells them the truth, they're

there's a level, well, not the truth, but the nagging is the truth. The joke masquerading as the truth.

then they're like, wait, what? And that's actually what's really interesting about... I was working with this couple recently where the woman is more the anxious one, the man is more avoidant. And it's funny because whenever anyone reads our book, the men tend to identify with Kaimor and the women tend to identify with me. Way to go. But what's interesting is he is distancing and she is anxious about his choosing of the relationship. He's uncertain.

And I said, if you don't tell the truth about your own uncertainty, he can't trust you. And so really what goes on for more anxious people or people pleasers, codependents, is they're not honest. Yes. And what gets picked up in the other person's body is that feeling of, like, you don't tell me the truth, so I can't innately trust you. Yes. And I want to connect that because I actually...

I would be someone that falls for negging until I knew what negging was. And I always, the men that I like are usually the men that everyone, my, all my guy friends say it's like my kink when like guys are like, sit, tell me no. Or like,

I don't know, just like kind of come with a little bit of spice or friction. You want some zip. Because it feels like they're telling me the truth. And I've been with so many men that are just nice guys that go along with stuff, say yes, but they actually then resent you. And so it feels like for me more safe to be with a man that's like saying no, kind of going against what I want.

because I think there is a lack of safety that you feel when you are dating someone that's a people pleaser. And I think a lot of women almost want to beat the people pleaser into men and make them do whatever they want. But when you get into that point where the man is doing whatever you want or agreeing with you, it's so unsafe feeling. Well, it kills attraction. Oh, 100%. It's not because at the core of it, you've created more safety perceptionally because...

Because he's not going to leave you. But at the same time, you've created someone you don't respect. Yes. Yes. And then you'll blame him. Yep. 100%. And we're both responsible for that dynamic. Robert Glover wrote a book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. And in it, he has a great quote where he says, if you don't stand up to her...

she won't believe you'll stand up for her. Oh, 100%. Oh yeah. I love that. 100%. How do you do that? Okay. So if we were to drill down, how can women look for that in a man? Like what are ways in which they can find a man that they will believe will hold that frame, hold that power, hold that sort of energy?

Well, I think the first part is for, in that context, a woman to recognize within themselves how they become the tyrant, how they become the patriarchy, you know, that idea of internalized patriarchy. So that first part of how do you energetically go into a place where you desire to put a man into submission, really from an unconscious place of safety, which makes a lot of sense. So it's like, we're not shaming the patterns. They come from really beautiful places, but also for men,

Oh man, so many men don't have access to the word no. And I, when I was growing up, I, you think even Robert Glover talks about this in his book, like what creates a nice guy. Men spend the majority of their young life, especially in earlier generations where the mother was at home.

all their teachers or the majority are female. So they spend the majority of their young life trying to get approval from women and to be safe with women. And then they hear from the news that men are murderers, rapists, toxic masculinity. You have people saying that testosterone is a toxic hormone. All of this is so ridiculous because it doesn't actually teach men that we need them in their know. We need boundaries. So I grew up thinking that boundaries were controlling.

So then when I actually needed a boundary, I was not connected to my anger. I only expressed anger in sports. But with women, I wouldn't stand up for myself. And then of course I'd get betrayed. And I think about this a lot that,

Every single betrayal I ever experienced in my life externally from somebody else was always 100% of the time preceded by an internal betrayal of myself. Say more. So whenever anyone gets cheated on, lied to, any of that. And this is a hard truth to hold, but if you're willing to just explore it, you will find a really important ingredient to what led to it. And I'm not saying it's anyone's fault they got betrayed. No.

But of course, there's always medicine in all of this, which is to say that before the betrayal that occurred outside of you, you can always trace it back to a betrayal that you had with yourself. And like some of the most painful moments of my life were really being confronted by being cheated on, things like that.

But I realized that I only ended up in those moments because I didn't honor something earlier. Can you give an example? Yeah, so I dated this girl and this woman in university and she went away to play on a scholarship to the States. I grew up in Canada.

And we agreed. We'd been dating like a year, a year and a half, something like that. I loved her. I gave her the title. The one. She was the one. After I already gave that to someone else. But, you know, to the next one. She gave me back the token. She was the next one. Passed the baton. And we agreed that we would be able to see other people.

But we would tell each other about it. Exactly. That laughter is an essential part of this story. I love that stuff. So. It's so college. So college. Oh, my God. So she comes back for Canadian Thanksgiving, which is the same as U.S. Thanksgiving. We just do it a month ahead.

And she brings one of her best friends was also on this and they bring this friend of theirs back too. So I go over to her parents' house for Thanksgiving dinner and this guy's there and I'm sitting at this dinner and I'm like, something's going on here. And I remember thinking to myself,

How did I let it get to this point? And the only real memory I have from that night is I'm standing at the base of her stairs and I'm saying to her, is this how you tell me? And she's like, yeah.

And she's like, I didn't, but sure. She didn't, yeah. Yeah, it's like college communication too. This is how I tell you to tell me. You guys are both having like a full psychic conversation, but no words are said. You're like, is this how you tell me? She's like, yes, and no words were actually said. No one says anything. No one says anything. And you know, what made it so much harder, not that this detail, I think it's just important for the human part of this, is he was like the running back of the football team, built like Adonis. You know, he's a jack dude. And-

I remember after that, I drove away from her house and I remember driving fast because of course that's what you do when you're upset. Brilliant. But what I didn't realize is that unconsciously I complete, I became avoidant after that. And I unconsciously made it mean that monogamy led to betrayal. And it would mean that, um,

I would lose myself if I loved people. And I had witnessed most of my teen life. I was very much like girlfriend committed. And most of my buddies were like that. Most of the guys I played sports with, but you know, there were a few who were like womenizing. They weren't complaining about things. They weren't experiencing betrayals. So I was like, shit, I haven't done any of that. I got to get into that. That sounds way easier. Of course it's not. But that betrayal of that dinner,

occurred when I agreed to see other people when I didn't want to. So you don't even end up at the dinner if you honor yourself. Yeah. When I finally took responsibility for not telling the truth before the dinner. Yeah.

I had so much forgiveness for her because I did it. She made the choices. And of course she's taken responsibility for that. We've repaired and blah, blah. But I'm no longer a prisoner to the victimization of that story because I'm the one who chose to be there. And without the Thanksgiving dinner, I don't recognize that I betrayed myself. So I can't reclaim my soul much earlier in the process. So we have to be able to tell the truth at the earliest point of knowing that

So it's like when someone says, oh, I ended up in a relationship with a narcissist for a year. I go, when did you know? And they're like, well, you really knew at a year. And I'm like, no, but like first date, second date was your body going, ah, because you have to connect to the earliest part. Because if you don't connect to the earliest part, you can't integrate what your body was telling you. Does that make sense? I remember I have two things being in a relationship with a narcissist at one point. And I remember our first like huge blow up fight and like,

He had lied and gone to the strip club that night when we fought. And I looked at his phone the next day, found videos and like photos and like their conversations and stuff. And I remember...

Like literally seeing all this evidence and being told no, that I was crazy and that it wasn't real. And I was, and just being gaslit, like, but I didn't have the language for gaslighting. So I just remember sitting there and being like something so off here. And I don't know what it is. And I can't like grab my mind around it. But I was like, something is so off. Something is so wrong. But I didn't really, couldn't really understand like what it was. And I'd been gaslit so much in my life.

And then I remember, and I can relate to the story about cheating in college. I was dating someone of all of college who's an amazing man. And I remember I went abroad and I wanted to stay together in my mind, but I think I was afraid that I'd get cheated on. So I was like, let's not be together. Like, let's just...

And so the whole time I was expecting him to technically be with me and act like we were together and he didn't, he started to date other people or hook up with other people. And I remember being so upset at him and so mad and like, but I was not clear. Like I told him I didn't want to be together and to date other people. And then he did that. And I was like, thought I got cheated on. Like, but I wasn't being honest with myself, you know, in the situation and saying like, no, I actually do want to be together and I want to do these things. So I think,

That's very, very true. And I know you had your own situation. Well, I was just going to ask about that feeling in your body when someone feels something so early on. I think a lot of women who are dating are kind of doubting that feeling. I guess I want to speak to that because I think people know much earlier than they think and...

I also think sometimes we make assumptions too early that prevent us from finding out more true information, if that makes sense. So it's kind of an interesting both and. Yeah. But how would you talk to someone who's dating and really coaching them to feel into the body and what that really means when getting to know someone? Well, I think being able to recognize that

you really only are able to tease away the difference between, let's say, trauma and truth by making the wrong choice. So you have to be, you're being informed through the experience, but you have to be able to tell the truth about the experience. So whenever anyone's like, well, how do I learn how to trust someone? Or how do I learn how to trust my choices? Well, you have to be able to actually critically assess the choices you've made.

Because if you can't tell the truth about the choices you've made, then none of it will ever matter because you're not even learning about the things you've done. And when you could take ownership, like you're talking about that story with the guy from college, then all of a sudden you recognize that you prioritized the fear of being left or cheated on or disappointed that you then created, you said no to a relationship that was a yes.

And then you created the very circumstances that you feared. And so what a beautiful thing to recognize. But the grief of that is heavy, you know, because I think about the grief of, it's not even about the Thanksgiving dinner. It's about that there was a part of me that thought that connection to someone else and maintaining their quote unquote choice of me.

and agreeing to what they wanted. And I would imagine that she probably wanted to not date anymore, not to put that in her experience, but I'm guessing she was like, I'm going to the States. I want to be free. Sure. She's like, he's like 6'5". Yeah, exactly. There's Adonis out there. He's 5'8". But I think about that a lot of that, the onus and responsibility always falls on the person with the higher level of consciousness.

And that could be a really hard thing to hold because especially relationally. Especially as women. Yeah, my wife and I sort of play leapfrog with that, you know. But it's always so important that the person that is making the greater awareness brings the awareness to the relationship. So it almost like pulls forward the other person at the same level. And it's actually the requirement of relationship is that you have to be willing to declare hard truths about what you, and you both know this because you do it with each other.

And because I see the wisdom that my wife brings as wisdom, I see what she sees as informing. There's hard times when I don't like what she's saying, but I still recognize the innate value in it. I think when we prioritize that whatever one person is feeling, the other person is, but just might not be aware of it. So it was actually on me to say,

Oh, this actually doesn't make sense. Oh my God, I was so desperate for that to work 'cause I loved her. But I don't know that I had, I don't even wanna say that I didn't have the mentor

Because if I had brought that conundrum to someone like my dad, he probably would have said, hey, maybe it's best that based on what you're saying that you guys end the relationship so you can honor what you desire. Instead, I'm settling for, that sounds like I'm a victim of it, but really I'm agreeing to lower the standard of what I desire to accommodate what I have. Yeah. Oh my God. How many people do that? How many women do that? It's funny the thing about being honest because-

I've been in relationships where it was almost like I omitted truths to my friends and people in my life. And I'm even witnessing one of my really good friends leave a relationship. And now the truth is coming out of things that were like hidden to kind of keep the story afloat and like keep things afloat.

And it's so important to have the relationships in your life that can just hold the mirror or like hold the truth of things, not forcing you to be further along in your path, but just being able to kind of see things. And I remember even at the end of one relationship, talking to friends, you included, and man, my friend's faces told me everything I needed to know. You know what I mean? Like of like, and they never said anything that I wasn't saying, but it was just like being...

having the truth be in the air and be seen and witnessed by someone else was like, oh, this is like... To say it out loud. Especially when we have shame. Like I didn't tell a lot of my friends about what happened at that dinner because...

because I was so ashamed. I was so embarrassed. Like, what did it mean about my own value that I would be treated with such little reverence? And again, as you were, you know, make fun of, cause it's true is like you're young and you don't have the tools. And she probably really wanted to tell me, but at the same time was terrified of breaking my heart. So because of my fragility of heartbreak,

And she's actually tending to that instead of the truth. Yeah, so true. Oh my God. I was, I watched Laguna Beach one time when I was like sick too. They would come to lunch and they'd be like, so, and then-

So we think we're going to go. And he's like, yeah, like it was like half conversations, half sentences, half words, like also scripted, also scripted. But like no, no full dialogue was ever had about any relationship or any situation. So everything was just insinuated or like everything was like,

or unclear. And I was like, wow, the way that we lived in lack of clarity in so much of our lives and relationships. And what we were seeing in shows, like just as to like what a relationship might look like. Like I could look at Laguna Beach and be like, but they're cool. Yeah. That's what a relationship should be like. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Totally. And we put these people on pedestals. Yeah. But we really...

I just think the depth conversations are not really sexy when you're young. I even think the algorithm doesn't like things longer than 90 seconds. I know. So, you know, it's our attention span isn't even long. So how do we learn how to have long form conversations? Now, granted, there are obviously podcasts like this and

I think Joe Rogan's podcast, Hate It or Love It, offered this window into three-hour conversations of complexity, which we really need. But how many of us, especially I would imagine more young people, again, not throwing shade, but they grew up with short-form content. And then they're like, I'm neurodivergent and I have ADHD. And I'm like, no, you have fucking...

TikTok brain. Yeah, I do. Like we all do. And so like no Adderall might keep you a little more focused. It's also like a cousin of meth. So that's a problem. And we're not even seeing that the problems we're having, even from a mental health perspective are not

due to a problem we have. They're due to the fact that our bodies are having a hard time adapting to an environment that they're not meant to be in. And our nervous system is not meant to be surveying for social safety 24 hours a day. When you have a version of you that exists online all the time,

that person is available for social criticism. The one thing I wanted to say just about the relational thing that I think is important for all of us to recognize as young as we can, although, you know, for us it took longer. So if you're listening and you're younger, go for it. And if you're older and this resonates, do it now, which is that if any behavior you have or relationship you're engaged in makes it so you have to not believe that you're sacred,

then it's not for you. And that includes choices we make. And that took me a long time to really recognize is that any dynamic that I'm agreeing to be part of, I must become that dynamic. So if I'm entertaining toxicity, I must become toxic. If I'm entertaining ambivalence, I have to become someone who believes I'm actually meant to be, someone's meant to be uncertain about me.

And so there is always a cost to everything you choose and that cost can be great in a good way and that cost can be great in a bad way. I would argue, of course, the bad ways are usually the cosmic two by fours to the head. How do you feel then about... So if they're toxic, you become toxic. If they're ambivalent, you become ambivalent.

Do you feel like then if we're talking about attachment styles, this is me asking for myself undercover, are they avoidant and you're avoidant or is it they're avoidant and you're anxious? How does that work with attachment styles? Do you attract what attachment style you are or the opposite? Well, usually...

No two avoiding people will find each other because they're both like, I'm avoiding this. Like didn't text him back. We're done. Perfect. No, we usually unconsciously engage in relationship with people who activate us in a way that's familiar. That sucks. So, you know, it's Harville Hendricks and Helen Hunt who really framed this, that we

we're unconsciously drawn to a person who wounds us in the way that a parent wounded us the most. We used to think it was often said, it's your opposite sex parent. That's not true. I agree with that. And I think a lot about actually the father wound.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that lately. Yeah, because I listened to your guys' episode with Bethany Webster, which I loved. It was so good. And then I dove deep into it. And I noticed this thing with really high-functioning couples that I knew. And I was really assessing Kylie and I's relationship. But then I was noticing this in all these high-functioning couples I knew and if I was working with them, is that when the...

female partner, the father doesn't even have to be a bad dad. It could just be a dad who didn't meet the emotional needs of the daughter. What it shows up as, and it's eerie how often I see this in couples now, is that the wife or partner presents to the relationship energetically as nothing you do will ever be enough. And the

So male's wound is nothing I ever do will be enough. It's almost like the mother wound is masquerade is playing with the father wound, which of course makes a lot of sense. But what's really interesting is I started to look at this more from, okay, well, how does the father wound present then for that woman? Like what unconsciously is going on? Well, it's if I constantly keep you on the hook to always have to do more and earn more and

As soon as you do the thing I ask, I'm just gonna change it. There's gonna be something else. Then I'm constantly keeping you in a state of disappointment where you have to keep rallying for me. That way you can't leave me 'cause I'm keeping you busy. And my disappointment keeps you close.

But eventually both people will get tired of that because your nervous system will get tired of that. And what usually happens is, well, I think what really needs to happen is the man needs to stand for, I won't play this game anymore. And what that does for the woman in that dynamic is her system finally goes,

Yes, I've been seen. I've been called out on my shadow. And of course they're both shadow behaviors, but I'm just saying in that dynamic, much like we were talking about earlier, when the man stands in his truth, the woman's system goes at ease. When the man tells the truth, the system goes at ease. And that part is where the husband or partner finally says, there's something here in this dynamic that is actually yours too.

And I think a lot of the time, especially for anxious people, which that might present a little more, there's a lot of self-perception that they're the victim of an avoidant dynamic. And what that does is it makes it so you can't take responsibility. Because if you hear a lot of people who are anxious, people pleasers, whatever the word we're going to use, codependent, in relationship with addicts, whatever, is they'll say, I'm ready to fully choose this. You're not.

I'm the one who's doing the work. I'll read the books, listen to the podcast. I'm sober, you're not. But what happens in that dynamic is they're presenting as certain. They're presenting as having their poop in a group, but they're really not. That's why I said in that relationship dynamic with that couple I was working with, the one person is always uncertain.

And that creates the dynamic where the other one has to constantly convince them. Does that make sense? Yes, completely. But what's actually happening is this person isn't even in discernment. They can't even move towards. They're in freeze. This other person is actually bypassing discernment. So they present as certain so that the magnifying glass or the reflection doesn't have to go on them.

But in doing that, they're actually having to not honor the truth that their system says this person might not be a good choice. When you can bring that truth to the table, it's amazing what happens because the person who's more avoidant or uncertain about or ambivalent about the relationship goes, holy shit, I finally feel seen.

Like, how could you be certain about me? I'm not sure about you. Yes. Like that's such a load of bullshit. Yes. And it doesn't mean that it's like causing the dissolving of the relationship. It's bringing more truth. Yes. To the table. So their system eases and they can move towards it because the truth is now being acknowledged. Now the other person, they're actually now able to connect back into their bodies, but they also will likely grieve where they loved and depended on a parent

who wasn't reliable or they told a lie about who a parent was to lower the level of dissonance it created. Because if you think about it, and this I think is from Gabor Mate, where he says, when a parent lets down a child, the child has two choices, to believe the parent is flawed or to believe they are. And they always choose the second because the first is too confronting. Like it destroys the safety or perceived safety of their world.

Wow. Yeah. I've had so many experiences where I wanted to be seen as the one that was certain. To me, that equaled good. To me, that equaled something. I was so righteous in it. Yes. So righteous. And I just, yeah, I just love this offering of just bringing that truth to the table that you're not sure. And I just, I played into the dynamic of one person

engaging in like behavior that was just so subpar and me in contrast, because I'm right there with them, just being pristine, just so good. How could you, how could you not want someone like me? Right. Why wouldn't you get clean? Why wouldn't you become healthy? Yes. But really then what has to be internalized is I'm someone who is worthy of that behavior. Yes. So you're always training. Exactly.

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Yeah. And I think about that dynamic with my wife before we broke up when we were dating, it was that level of righteousness that was really, I wasn't certain much like when I agreed to see other people. I wasn't certain at all. I had tons of fears that that relationship was going to end up in a disaster and it did. And much like with my wife, when we were dating, I was like,

I'm presenting as I could choose this forever, but really I didn't want to. How could I choose somebody who was ambivalent? Like my nervous system would be fried my whole life. And recently I was working with this woman who said to me, I've been working on anxious attachment for years. I'm seeing a somatic therapist, I'm into therapy, but really focusing with my somatic therapist on this. And I said, okay, well, tell me about your anxiety. She tells me about it and I said, tell me about your relationship.

Well, we don't really have clear agreements. I think he messages with other women. He doesn't post about us on social media. And I'm like...

I don't care how many somatic therapists you see, you cannot resolve your anxiety in an environment that creates anxiety. Yeah. Like your anxiety is an exactly appropriate response to the relationships you're in. Yeah. And then she was like, holy fuck. Like, I didn't even think about that. What? Well, yeah, which I thought was really interesting because I'm like, well, how...

you can't "theraparize" or "somatize" which is probably not the right word. You can't green juice it, you can't cold plunge it. And that is actually how most of us see, let's say our "attachment style" or the way we relate as some sort of flaw.

As opposed to what happens if it's exactly the appropriate response, just how you're maybe approaching it is challenging. But when there's insecurity or uncertainty, the way you're behaving is actually appropriate to what you know. Yeah. If that makes sense. It does a hundred percent. And I think I kind of want to like double click on that a little bit because I think a woman we know a lot of times, and I think for me personally,

in the scenarios that I've been avoidant or whatever, it's like, it hasn't been, even in what I'm in right now, it's like, it's amazing, but it's not, I don't, I'm pretty sure it's not my person. So the appropriate level of my trepidation is because I know that there is another that will be for me. And I just know that in my soul, that the person that I meet, I will be like available for going all the way in for without thought. Yeah.

And I think for women, it's like we do have a sixth sense and we do have a knowing. But I think for a lot of women, the anxiousness, and I think this is a great point that both of you brought up, so many women are so obsessed with being good or being perfect or earning love or being better than, you know, like having that upper hand.

And creating that safety by having the upper hand. And I think when women are okay to let go of that earning love, earning approval, whatever, and really see the truth of like, okay, this is the ego identity they're attached to of, I cook him meals. I do all these things for him. And yet he still does this. You know, it's like that sort of addiction to like, I do all of this. And yet here we are. It's like,

I don't know what that is. Do you think it's like a little girl in them? That's like, what, what, what could that be?

Yeah, the desire to create safety, right? By becoming everything they need. And then they won't need anybody else. Yeah, that's a good one. Of course, it creates all these hooks. And then you're not really even free in the relationship. Because if you ever step out of that role, you're not safe anymore. Much like men who use money and power, what happens when they don't have money or power? You know, I think there's two really interesting things in there. The first one is that...

When a woman is engaged, when we think, okay, when I meet the person I'm going to know,

Okay, well, if you've never known and you've never met someone you knew, then maybe knowing will feel different than you think. Does that make sense? No. So if you've never known, but you have an idea of what knowing feels like, then how will you actually know? Maybe it's different than the romanticized idea. Yeah. I think with my husband, I knew, and he was the only person that I knew, and there's still, I believe...

Is the timeline and not like I'm attached to the relationship at all, but I do believe that there is a path where we could have worked in some ways. And so I think, I don't know, with him, I knew. I usually know things. I believe that. You know what I mean? Like, I just believe that I will know. So you're saying that the guy that you're currently with is not your guy? Not in this iteration. Okay.

Wait, so now you're adding a caveat to this. I like it. Okay, so not in the iteration of who he is. Is that what you're saying right now? In the way the dynamic currently is. But the way the dynamic currently is, you're not like fully in in the moment. Say that again a different way. So if you fully chose it now, would it change the dynamic? Yes, definitely.

And I don't know if I have capacity to fully choose it right now. Am I avoidant? Am I crazy? Well, you can not have capacity. And right now the priority of your life is to launch a book. So I get that. You know, it's like when we engage in that dynamic of, I know, I had this friend who said to me, when I meet my husband, he's just going to get me.

Oh. Like he's just gonna know me. Huh. And I said, well, that's a lot. Like how will he... First off, like you're a lot to know and that's not an insult, that's a compliment. Yeah.

Well, I think the opposite. I'm like, no one's ever going to know me. Well, I think of that quote from Marilyn Monroe. What is it? Where it's like, if you can't handle me at my worst, then you don't deserve me at my best. And I always think like, well, why would I want you at your worst? I know. That's so strange. Imagine if that was a man quote. Yes.

So true. Like it's such a different. So true. Cause it's like cute or like romanticize. I think women romanticize because we feel like we have to be so perfect. Yeah. The world has to see us as beautiful, as smart, as, you know, successful, as kind, as loving as all of these things. I think women have the fantasy of being loved just as they are.

in their messiness because they don't love themselves in their own messiness. So they desire for a man to just love them unconditionally in their messiness. So that's kind of where that quote comes from. Yeah, with hot conditions, right? Where they're like, because you think when someone finally says to someone else, actually, this is what I was thinking is,

Every woman who has a truth that they need to tell their partner needs to tell them it. Yeah. Because otherwise you don't trust he can hold it. And the only way he can become what you desire or what you see within him is through the information you have. Yes. Now, granted, I've dated women who have told me truths I wasn't ready for, but those truths woke up something within me that eventually those truths came full circle. And so what she said to me then became revealed later. Say an example. So I was dating this woman.

who said to me that I was unavailable and if I actually stayed a little longer...

We could actually build a relationship together, but I was avoidant and I was avoiding love and I was running from women. And I was like, I'm not running from women. Like, get out of here. You're going like gay? Yeah, exactly. I'm not running towards dong. But I remember being like, ugh. Bitch. Yeah. And I kept in my pattern for a couple of years. But...

When I finally had to confront that truth, the words she said to me rang in my ear. Yeah. And I realized that when she said it, it was seated. And my integrity was like... I remember showering one morning after having a... I had like a casual relationship every Wednesday with this woman. And I remember showering one Wednesday... No, Thursday morning. And I remember thinking...

I don't feel good. And then I remember thinking, I don't really feel good every Thursday. And I don't feel good choosing what I'm choosing. She was a great choice, but I was not in a good place. I was avoidant. And I was exactly what that woman said to me. And I remember thinking, why am I continuing to choose something that doesn't feel good for me? That doesn't make any sense. And I started to realize that I had so many things I knew that I wasn't living. Yeah.

And there was a lot of grief with that because why would I allow myself to stay in circumstances that create suffering? Yeah. Even though they feel good in the moment, like arousal. But I realized that I was using arousal to treat disconnection. Every dude. Yeah. I wasn't even using porn. I was just having sex or making out. Yeah. But then man, I remember when I was like, okay,

And when I said I was no longer gonna have casual sex and friends with benefits, it was like quitting a drug. Wow. I remember picking up my phone to text. Do you think friends with benefits works? What do we think about that? No, it definitely doesn't. Yeah, no. Because why do you feel like it doesn't work?

Because almost always, and I only say that because there'll be someone listening like, no, for me, one person develops relationships and one person is, which is of course what happens when you're intimate. And because there's no boundaries around it, you'll all of a sudden become vulnerable and open up. Totally. And so it creates a container for...

for vulnerability, but almost always one person and the other person is like, especially avoiding people. It's easy for avoiding people to be in that because it's more disassociative and you get to control the depth of intimacy. You always have a lever. I told you I wasn't ready. I told you I didn't want a relationship. And that's true. Yeah. Plus with women, the oxytocin, man.

Yeah, I mean, it lasts a shorter period of time. So that's why it's easier. When you get that oxytocin hits. And I feel like they can compartmentalize. So like they could have a night with you and then go to work and like be eight hours head down. And you're like, why the fuck haven't you texted me? You were inside me last night. You know what I mean? It's like I'm in my Excel spreadsheets today. Yes, yes, yes. That is interesting. You think about it too. Like a woman when she's intimate has to prepare for...

for 10 months, right? Because you think about the actual biological cost to it is quite large. Now, of course, people would say that birth control has suppressed that.

But I remember listening to Jordan Peterson and this actually goes along with the data on birth control, which is birth control impacts pheromones. And so women tend to pick men who have similar immune systems when they're on the birth control pill. But when they're ovulating, they actually pick men who have more broad and different immunity, which makes sense for offspring.

And Jordan Peterson was talking about how because of the birth control pill, we've now encouraged women to participate in more short-term sexual relationships. Sure, no judgment again on any of that, who cares? But he said the people who are more successful at short-term relationships are narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths.

He said, so when you choose to engage in short-term casual sex, you expose yourself to more of those types of people. Wow. And that makes a lot of sense. That makes so much sense. That is so crazy. Sarah Hill, Brain on Birth Control, she was on his show and I think they were talking about parts of that too, but...

Yeah, the fact that birth control changes who you would choose is also wild, but that is so crazy. And I do think women have been socialized to be like, casual sex is fine. It's okay. And I'm like, it could be for some people. For me, it's just, I've tried and I can't.

I'm too deep. It's amazing that we want to figure out a way to numb ourselves in order to participate in it. Like I used to have to drink essentially. Yes, exactly. And I thought, man, I'm doing...

If I can't do something sober, I shouldn't do it. 100%. That should just be a great rule. When I finally became sober, I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I've time traveled through so much beautiful connection. Yes. I always say drinking is time travel. Because you go out and then you don't know what happens. And the next morning you wake up and you kind of are regrouping and reconnecting. And I remember there was someone, you know, that I was trying to have a friends with benefits situation with. And I was talking to my therapist. Yeah.

And she was like, you guys were like talking about God after. She's like, you think that you can actually have friends with penance? She's like, you're hilarious. She's like, you can't do anything that's not deep. And I was like, that's so true. And just remembering that my specific frame is just not made for penance.

made for that. And I just think we also forget like the imprint that someone leaves. Oh God. You know, so I, if I think back to my twenties and just that period where I was like single for a while, like I was, I was working the streets. My girl was on the streets. Working the streets. She was. She was. And I'm just like, wow. And John Wineland told me this to my face during an interview. He's like,

do not let anyone in until they really see you, you know, like just that feeling of like being seen and,

And I was like, dang, John. Yeah, it's so true because I really started to feel the energetic imprint of people, whether it was like I would feel low and not know why or just kind of almost take on someone's like thoughts and feelings. And, you know, even there's like an energy that people bring to sex where you're like, whoa. 100%.

So this was not about me. You know, I know you're not like angry fucking me, but like what is, you know, it's just like, it's such a sensitive, open thing. And if I would try to like protect her or like close myself off even during it, like that creates something. Yeah, that's so real. Even that you have to close your own body in the reception of something. Yes. Which is how many of us are...

are trying to seek superficiality in a superficial world where we really desire depth. And again, it's never shade for any, you know, I learned years ago that not everyone wants to be happy. Not everyone wants fulfilling relationships. Some people just want to, you know, watch the game or do, again, this isn't a judgment of that. It's just to say that, like you were saying, you can't deny the desire for depth if you have it. Yeah. I think with the sensitivity, I had a situation where,

I had been intimate with someone who I trusted, like loved, saw me, but someone that was like anxious and like struggling. And I remember the next day I was on a flight and I was unwell. I was like, the thoughts that I have are not my thoughts. I do not feel, I felt kind of insane. And I was like,

If I don't think that someone inside me in my field in a very intimate and open way is going to impact me, I know that when I'm around people that I don't even... And when I'm around people having conversations that don't feel good, I don't feel good. So what was I thinking, thinking that I could let someone in like all of my...

in a way and not feel impacted. And I went into the bathroom on my flight and I was like, okay, I'm going to clear my womb space just to do some energy work. I started bawling my eyes out. Wow. Just clearing my womb. I was like, I just need to kind of clear this energy. And I was crying so hard. I felt so much better after. But I was like, babe, it's just... Coming out of that bathroom. It's just so... I know, honestly, whatever. Just so much more, not serious, but for me as a deep feeler, it's just so much...

Life is even more beautiful being someone that feels, but I need to be, it means I need to move through the world with more care. Yeah. If only we learned that so long. I was listening to Alan Watts yesterday and he was saying- The real one or AI? The real one. Thank God. The real one dropped some gems. The AI one's got something. Yeah. And he said, when I drink the wine, am I the wine or am I me? Yeah.

Like I become a mixture. And so I think a lot of just what you said, it made me think about that. Like when you're intimate with someone, there is no separation. And so you become one. And then how do we not believe that there's going to be some residual? And also what are the, I think about this from a social media perspective too, and podcasting, et cetera, is we are not taught the energetic practices to clear our spaces. Yeah. Yeah.

Like we're like, oh, Palo Santo? What are you? What are you, a wellness expert? Yeah, 100%. Have you been able to cultivate that like within your relationship, within your own self-practice, even with now like your child, just kind of like understanding when things need to be cleared? Yeah, I've had, I mean, I recently was listening to a podcast called, uh,

It was on Guardians and Protectors, it's a great podcast, I forget what the name of it is. But in the episode, he has a prayer where he says, it's about exploring and using social media. And the prayer essentially is saying, like, please remove what I have seen. Wow. And I listen to it almost every day now. Wow. Because I think about my son's experience, if I don't clear like a heavy session with a client or...

Something like that. To end, I did wanna touch on just your decision to leave Instagram and then to come back. And this could be a whole podcast, but I think a lot of people are just kind of looking at their relationship with social media

Especially with the rise of AI and everything, it just seems like it's very loud. And how do we retain our humanness and also just that soul part of us when everything just feels so distracting and intense? So I would love a couple of your takeaways from that experience and just what you learned.

Well, I had to leave. There was just such a deep soul calling. Like I couldn't pretend it anymore. You know, it's one of those, I had had it for a while. I didn't want to name it. You know, I didn't want to lay off. I didn't want to admit it, especially because I'd become from a business perspective. And I would say too, from an identity perspective, so dependent on it. And I started to see how it mirrored relationships like narcissistic abuse in that you're,

What I found so interesting is I'd talk to someone from Meta and I'd be like, oh, what is going on in the world of Instagram? And they'd say, well, you know, the algorithm, we think it likes this. And I'm like, you fucking work for the company. And I started to see, isn't it so fascinating? One, it makes you become dependent on it, which again, I'm not a victim of this. I consent to it, but you have to identify the story first so that you can rescue yourself from it. Nothing is ever enough.

They'll never tell you how to do it, how to win. Much like love bombing, you'll get a little bit, they'll take it away. If you try to monetize it, they'll often punish you for that if you put like a link in a bio or go buy this thing or get my book. And I started to see how my system was just feeling so fried in relationship to this thing. Also, I felt like

a lot of resentment that when I spoke about what was actually true going on in the world, it costs a lot of my reach. Like I was growing at 50 to 100,000 people a month in followers, crushing it. The moment I said natural immunity is real, done. The moment I said, that doesn't make sense. I was reading the clinical trial. You can't say that I was in pharma for 14 years.

I didn't change any behavior. I just kept asking questions, which I'd always done. I did it about relationship. I did it about everything. And so I had a lot of resentment because I personalized a lot of it. Now, what was interesting is when I finally left, I then had so much spaciousness because I wasn't in relationship with this dynamic that is abusive in the way that it extracts and uses people.

I talked to Stephen Porteous, who's the founder of Polyvagal Theory. And I was telling him about the nervous system, anxiety, et cetera. And he said, you know, Mark, what you're talking about is called, it's just hypervigilance. And he said, your nervous system is constantly surveying for safety. And he said, there's a version of you that lives on the internet that not only is available to criticism and social risk from people you do know, he said, but you actually have a million people that don't know you. And he said, so-

If him and I were having that conversation like we are, and there weren't microphones and phones and TV and all the things, TVs, there's no TVs. But if there wasn't all this stuff, we would all go to bed tonight and we would no longer be at social risk. But this conversation will live somewhere. And while it's living...

While I sleep, my system is still thinking about social risk of the post I did, the thing I said, right. So what's interesting is that the system can't differentiate a live version of you from a digital version of you. Your nervous system can't.

So we have to learn how to create tools to actually manage that. Now what's also interesting is the nervous system can't... If you check your Instagram here, you check it in the bathroom, you check it in the living room, your system will associate each one of those places with the amount of people that are available. So if you have 100,000 followers, there's 100,000 people in each room. So you should create spaces where you're actually doing that or practices.

I was sitting with my friend, Mike Elliott, and this is the last part of this. And he said to me, well, you clearly have something with Instagram because you're like fine with LinkedIn or TikTok or whatever. And I said, yeah, there's truth to that. And he said to me,

What is the thing that you like most wanted on Instagram? Like what would have been the best DM or the most dreamy outcome? And I said, you know, at the height of that stress about it, it would have been being validated for like my perspective that I was, what I said was okay. And he, he said to me, have you ever considered that the thing you most wanted from Instagram is the thing that you wanted most from your mom? And I was like,

We were in an Uber at the time. And I was thinking this Uber driver. Shut up, bro. Look at this meme. So I get to the house. He came over for dinner with Kai and her family. And I said to her, you wouldn't imagine what this fucking guy said to me in an Uber. And I tell her and she's like, yeah. Yeah. Like, why don't you tell me that?

And it led to this really beautiful conversation where my mom and I have had different perspectives during COVID. We have different perspectives on a lot of things. And Kai had said to me, have you ever considered that for the first time in your life, you having a different perspective with your mother and her need for you to align with her perspectives was for her and not for you?

Like her need for you to get vaccinated was actually for you to be aligned with her, not for your safety or whatever it might be. Although it might present perceptually as that. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah, it was like differentiation. And I was projecting my wounds with my mom and the need for strangers to validate my perspective to create safety. Now there is a truth to that. If you had a opposing view, you actually,

might not have had social safety, right? Even literal safety for some people. And that could go down each side of that. That's not important. So there is validity to that. But I started to realize that

I needed to leave so that I could access choice. Just like we all need to know we can leave relationships, that allows us to choose relationships. Because if you can't leave them, you can't choose them. And in coming back, what was really powerful from a growth perspective is there was an egoic part of me that was like, what will people think now?

I was going to leave. I didn't leave. I'm coming back. It's like getting back together with your ex, which I've done that. So that's great. Now we're married and have a kid. So, but what I realized was like, it doesn't matter what people think. And so there was a, there's a sense of peace in coming back because I'm no longer indebted to it. I miss days of posting, you

You know, it's no longer like I get lots of troll comments, all that kind of stuff. I don't care anymore. I used to care. And I don't think you can operate at the level of communication that you guys operate at or I do and anyone is capable of without differentiating your worth from what someone says.

Yeah, it's not easy. No. It's like I go through seasons and waves of that where I like absolutely don't care. And then I'm like, wait, I'm in a moment where I care. What is that? But I think it's interesting just to think about kind of what's happening or what happened, you know, whether it's in our family, between our parents, et cetera. Because yes, it can be that deep in my...

You know, I might feel corny to some people like, no, it's not my mom. Everything. To me, everything's like deep. Everything. You know, I agree because otherwise everything would be simple. Like healing would be just an intellectual step. Yeah. Right. Everything. Yeah. Creating the podcast, saying the thing. All of it would happen. Yeah. Yes. But most of it doesn't happen because there's a deeper story that's. Yeah. There's an upper limit. You know, there's fears. Yeah.

Beautiful. I mean, that was thinking about it as an abusive relationship and that narcissistic abuse is crazy. Like that is absolutely crazy. Well, most people are burnt out, you know? And I mean, there's, if I put out, if I put out the question to an entrepreneur's conference, like, or business people, I'm like, who here is on social media for business? Almost a hundred percent. Who here has tension or stress or anxiety about their relationship to social media? Yeah.

It's almost 100%. And now I'm saying, I'm like, oh, that's where my work lies now is like working with people who actually need to create

who want to create because this isn't about throwing it all away. Yeah. But it is actually about getting really real about your true relationship, how it's impacting you. Everything we talked about, you know, the, the, where am I betraying myself? Yes. Yes. Yes. So many of us are because we're thinking, I have to post this thing. I have to do that. I was talking to a friend who's a creator who's like, Oh, I'm, I have greater burnout. And I was like,

Yeah, it's just called burnout. It's not creative. It's just burnout. And of course you're burnt out. You fucking record 20 things a week. Like, you know, and now we're running through chat GBT. Yeah, we're losing it a little bit. Yeah, the chat GBT thing, which is making people even just put out more. You're getting chat GBT therapists. I know. I'm even noticing like when I...

while I'm creating something that like is like ripe and present, I'm like, oh yeah, this is easy. Let me flow. And then I put it out and then I'm seeing that it's either not being seen, not being received, whatever. And then I feel differently about the thing I created. And I'm like, actually no. Like I, I just, I love, I love when creativity hits me and I act and I follow through and that's the purpose of it. So the fact that I'm running it through Instagram is annoying me at the moment. So like I need to

watch the charge on that, but it's so important. Yeah. Like Stephen Porges said, uh, there's a non-human entity assessing the value of your work and algorithm. And you know, it's like, uh, Stephen Pressfield who wrote the war of art, he talks about how he shares this quote where he talks about the hack and he said, the hack is someone who, um,

creates what the audience wants, not what his own heart wants to create. And I think there's this balance again, you know, between strategy and authenticity. So is what I wanna write about or speak about actually coming from an authentic place? And it's easy to abandon that for metrics.

Yeah, I think whenever we're looking at something being deduced down to numbers, we know we're off the right path. Whether it's weight, whether it's money, whether it's followers, like when we're being deduced to matrix things, it's like we're off. You know what I mean? We forget the trust and the magic. Yeah. It's so easy to do, I think, especially right now. Yeah, yeah.

You're the best. You're the best. I know. I'm so grateful. We just spent three hours with Mark Groves. I know. What a pleasure. I'm so fine. I finally get to sit in person with you ladies. I love you. We got to, but now we get to. Yeah. And I'll see you tomorrow. Yeah. I can't wait. I know. I'm going to. Coming for the event. Yeah. So I'm going to fly.

Okay, what can people expect from you right now? Where can they find you? All that. You can find me at markgroves.com or createthelove.com. I have a community that's all about healing through relationship and that's all there. So breakups, dating, whatever, use it as a way to awaken. And all my personal stuff, like if you want to work with me one-on-one, you can just go to markgroves.com and there's a space there. A lot of it is, I really am starting to think a lot about people who are

creating exceptional business in their life, but are they exceptional relationally? Because to me, it's all... You can't... You must have... You can't have it all and you must. And so there's an opportunity for exceptionalism everywhere. And I think a lot about... And I'm thinking this is a really big storm that's coming, which is...

really healing ourselves and technology and actually returning back to the earth, to nature. And so that involves how do you create boundaries with technology, which I think is huge. I think that is going to be so powerful for you. Okay, guys, we love you. We'll see you later. Bye.

Thank you, Mark Groves. We appreciate you so, so, so much. Again, Mark Groves is at Create the Love. We were also on his show. He's also been on our show before, so you can search Mark Groves Almost 30. There are 800 other episodes that you can subscribe and listen to on Almost 30. Share this with a friend. It's so meaningful to have conversations and deepen your relationships with people by sharing them a podcast that makes you think of them. Get our book anywhere books are sold online or in person. We appreciate your love there and the reviews have been amazing. So if you've read it,

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