An Evening with Adam Buxton and Caitlin Moran (Part Two)
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Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. This is part two of our recent live event with Adam Buxton and Catlin Moran. If you missed part one, just jump back an episode to hear Adam on creativity, David Bowie, and the making of his very own podcast. Now, let's rejoin the conversation.

But writing about it, though, did it make you reflect on... I mean, I guess it must have made you reflect on how you parent, because it seems that you've really tried very hard to not parent like your parents. You have not sent your children away to school. Would you buy them a Fortnum's hamper if you felt that you owed them an apology, or would you just give them a hug and say sorry? I would do... Well, the hug is cheaper, so you do that first, and if that's not working, then you start going on the Fortnum's website. But, no, I mean, the...

I'm always caught between, you know, because I don't want to dismiss my parents completely out of hand. They didn't get some things right in my estimation, but I think they got other things right and they behaved in some ways that I admire and that I sort of wish I had a little bit more of myself, a certain kind of stoicism that maybe I lack. I don't know. So I'm not, I'm not

parenting in a radically different way. There are boundaries. I'm quite sort of Victorian dad sometimes when it needs to happen. But most of the time I'm wandering around, not in the queen costume, but in shorts. I'm very much always the same sort of person. I have the best time when I talk to the children about music and things like that and TV and films. That's my main thing.

Is there a big disjunction between what you thought being a parent would be like and what it actually is like? Because I remember before I had children, I just basically imagined a series of scenes where I was being incredibly wise and delivering these beautiful sermons, which would be multi-referenced and full of great quotes. Possibly there would be a song involved and they would listen raptly.

To me, the preacher man telling them all the wisdoms of the world. And of course you realise when you've got children that every time you give one of these speeches, they are not listening to it at all. Like they are, they never want to listen to your wisdoms. They have no interest in your big speeches. And 90% of parenting is they're just watching what you are like and copying it. But you only realise that once they're grown up and they're fucked off. Yeah. Oh shit, I didn't realise. And they're watching all the worst aspects of you and copying those it seems. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, not that bit. Don't do that fucking bit. Yeah.

What about the nice, wise bit? Do that. Can I read a little bit? Yes, please. From a, there's a chapter about... That looks like, just so you know, it looks like you're pushing that book into the Queen's mouth, which I think is good promo. That's a good picture. Nice book, I love it book. It's so nice to have a nice little book munch. I write about going on a cinema trip just after the lockdown.

And then, and it's very downbeat, like it's sort of relentlessly angsty, which is often my, I mean, it definitely was my mode around that time. I think that was the main thing from my point of view about being a parent

for a good chunk of time was just a constant feeling of like, I am fucking this up badly. And I'm fucking up actual human beings, which I didn't realize. I genuinely thought it was gonna be as simple as like, I'm gonna show you Star Wars tonight. You're gonna love it. I'm a great dad. Honestly, I thought that's what it was gonna be like. And then, you know, like drive them around a little bit, but as little as possible. Yeah. Two or three lifts a year. Yeah. Yeah.

instead it's much more complicated and then you know you get waves of angst about the domestic dynamics especially in the screens and internet age when everyone is so quickly siloed and it just you know there was a point where I was writing this book and I was going through the endless process of going through my parents belongings looking through photographs that they'd left behind scanning negatives kind of

just searching for answers in the past while my family were in the house. Like, I was in my nutty room across the way, and they're in the house, and they're all in their individual rooms looking at, I don't know, alt-right propaganda, whatever they like. And I just thought, this is madness. This is no life. And so I said, come on, let's all go to the cinema. So we went off to...

the cinema to see Free Guy. Did you see Free Guy? No. Is that the Ryan Gosling film? Yeah. Gosling, yes. Is it Gosling? Or Reynolds? It's a Ryan. It's one of the Reynolds. One of a Ryan. It's the fun Ryan. Yes. Anyway, it was fine, but it was a very tetchy expedition, really. And then when I got back from it, I just thought...

"Oh, this is no good. "I'm just doing this all wrong. "I'm becoming the grumpy asshole "that I always resented my dad being." You know what I mean? Just nonstop grumpiness about the film and the ads before the film and the price of the snacks at the cinema and the fact that I wasn't allowed to order what I wanted because I had to order within the parameters of the deal that they were offering.

All I wanted was a large popcorn so that I could split it between the children. Classic. And just, you know, nick a few spare tubs, split it between them, and I wanted a medium Coke. That's all I wanted. They said, no, you have to get a large Coke. It's part of the deal. I said, just give me a medium one's fine. No, so we had a, it wasn't a row, but it was a long conversation about like, am I being punished for wanting less Coke? Yeah.

And she was like, ah, just fucking get the coke. I was like, could you maybe not fill it up all the way? What about that? And she looked at me like, did it anyway. So it was that kind of trip. But then when I got back a few days later, we had a family supper that just flipped it all around. It was like one of those magical Richard Courtesy family suppers.

A few weeks after the Free Guy mission, the whole family was sitting down to a meal prepared by Frank, my eldest son, who had become quite a good cook during the lockdown, finding and embellishing recipes from Instagram. That night, he had made his signature dish, special egg fried rice with mystery hotness. He'd also written a song that day, not a comedy song or a jingle, but an actual angry punk folk song.

I had some slight reservations about the subject matter, the agony of being on a plane near a crying baby and realizing you've left your noise-canceling headphones in the Uber. I thought it could possibly be accused of being a bit one-percentric.

But it was a whole song, and Frank performed it for us on his guitar, something I had neither the skill nor the guts to do when I was his age. Hope, my daughter, was buoyant after being selected for a prestigious local netball team, and she and Sarah, my wife, exchanged...

Info about the politics and personalities involved as I struggled to keep my pride from being overwhelmed by my strong indifference to sport. Nat, my other son, meanwhile, seemed at last to be emerging from the Kevin the Teenager hole that he had spent much of the previous few years moodily barricaded within.

He had started to perk up the morning he discovered that, due to the pandemic, his GCSEs had been cancelled, an event that had adverse consequences for thousands of teenagers but was for Nat, quotes, "the best day of my life". Whereas once a family meal would have been an opportunity to catch up on some sleep, his head either thrown back in stupefied boredom or rested on the table,

These days, Nat was more likely to chat and laugh with the rest of us. He was becoming more curious about the world and seemed especially delighted by words and phrases that were new to him. When I described a cornfield as undulating in the wind a few nights before, he'd snorted undulating. Like that's a word.

He also was indignant to discover that the idiom "as the crow flies" cannot arbitrarily be attached to the end of any sentence as decoration. Something we pointed out after he'd said, "I think we should go to the pub for lunch as the crow flies." That night, he told us he'd visited grandma in the afternoon and had been surprised when she mentioned that grandpa had once been a high-powered lawyer like Sarah.

"You never told me Grandpa was a lawyer," declared Nat at the supper table. Sarah pointed out that in her study next to the piano that Nat had started playing nearly every day, there was a large portrait of Grandpa in his barrister's robes and wig. And hanging in the downstairs toilet was Grandpa's obituary, which appeared in the local paper. "Haven't you ever read Grandpa's obituary?" asked Sarah. "His what?"

said Nat and she repeated obituary Nat stared back flummoxed then said Grandpa had obituary I don't know what he thinks of what happens in obituary What's your children's relationship to your fame? Do they find it mortifying? What's their take on your career? They were only they're only dimly aware of it

I was on Bake Off. I was just about to come to this. Not least because I just realized this is the scene from Alien that you've recreated here. This is... That's right. The queen busting out. That's another pie that I could make. But... So they were... I mean, they weren't bowled over. They're not really Bake Off watchers. My daughter was excited. And she said, it was fine, Dad. You did fine. And then...

She was very impressed when I said that I was going to interview Loyal Karner on my podcast. And she loves Loyal Karner. She's got good taste. And she's liked him for a long time. So it was exciting to be able to say to her. It would have been like my dad saying, oh, I'm going to be hanging with David Bowie on the weekend. Back when I was a teenager, you know.

And so I got to introduce her to him. She came all the way to London to shake his hand, get a selfie, and then went back to Norwich. But it was absolute, like, massive respect. And was that the first time there had been respect? No, no. They're really nice. They're nice about it. And I think Nat's confused because every now and again he'll see something like,

Maybe he'll see a picture of me with one of Radiohead or something. He's like, what's this? What's this? How do you know them? What are you doing there? I was like, I worked with them. I've known them. We're pals. Me and Radiohead, we're like this. He's like, really? Oh, yeah. So he's just very confused.

What was it like doing Bake Off? Does that feel... Because you don't usually do stuff like that, do you? No. So what was the thing that made you... The only reason I did it was because I had a good idea. What I thought was a good idea. Yeah.

which was to, there was a round where you have to, you had to bake a pie as a tribute to a celebrity. They suggested Bowie. I thought, ah, it's a bit Route 1. And I was walking with Rosie one day, and I suddenly from nowhere got this vision of what I should do. The only time I've ever had a vision.

It really was. It was like I could see it in the sky. And it was a pie, a cherry pie, and bursting from the center was a baby xenomorph. Like in the film Alien, when it bursts out of Kane's stomach. Everything about it was a good idea because the recipe I was gonna use was the Paul Hollywood recipe for a cherry pie.

So I ticked that box and then I knew I could sculpt the alien really well, or rather I didn't, but I figured out a way to do it around an unripe banana so that it would stand up in the oven rather than disintegrate. I practiced. I wish I... I mean, there is a picture of the pie that I baked, the successful version, on my website, but...

I mean, it was so good. It was great. It looked amazing. It looked really good, all spattered with cherry juice and the, oh, it was great. Standing up, the flaps exploded. I was like, fuck, I'm going to win Bake Off. It was really like, this is Buckles 2.0. No more of this kind of amiable loser persona. He always fucks up at the last minute. Oh, but he's nice. You know, it's been, fuck that. I'm going to win Bake Off.

And then I didn't win Bake Off. And you looked genuinely traumatized and upset. Oh, man. I was honestly, I was like, I can't believe this isn't working at all. If you didn't see it, they didn't give me the correct ripeness of banana. The banana they gave me was...

shit and the alien that I sculpted just sort of disintegrated. It fell off. I went off to the loo at one point after putting it in the oven thinking, I think I'm going to win Bake Off still. And then when I came out, the crew, the story crew were gathered around the oven and they were all excited. Adam, can you come over here? Can you come over here? Can you tell us, can you have a look in the oven for us?

"How do you feel? Can you tell us how you're feeling?" And I genuinely, genuinely wanted to cry. - You looked broken. - I really was. It was just like, "Ah, fucking hell!" And then I was panicked because I was thinking, "Can I save it? How do I save it?" I was getting angry with the crew and I didn't want to show... I was like, "Remember, this is a fun show."

"The main thing is you're raising money for Stand Up To Cancer. Fun show, fun guy, nice guy. Don't show that you're angry and upset." And so it was hard, it was really hard. Noel Fielding came over at one point and tried to do some bants and then just went, "Oh no, no, he's gone. He's in the Herzog zone." And he backed the crew away from me.

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Some of my favourite stuff in the book is you talking about, because in the last book you'd taken us up to the point where Adam and Jo's show had just sort of started. Yes. And you go into much more detail now of what those early years were like. A lot more. A lot more detail. But I loved all of that. Okay. Because I remember watching it at the time. My husband was the first person to review the show for Time Out. And I remember him coming back from the office with the cassette and we put it in. We were very stoned. And he said,

And we were like, this is the greatest show ever made. It was unlike anything else that was happening. It was just like your mate had made a show for you. So reading all the details about how you did it, even though obviously it looks very DIY and it was very clear that you'd made it yourselves, I didn't realise that you'd done everything yourselves. There's a bit at one point where for one of the stunts you break onto the set of ER, which was your favourite show at the time, with a secret camera, and you manage to blag your way in. You're talking to all the staff. This is in Los Angeles. Yeah.

And then you come out and you go to look at the tape and just because you've been taping it yourself, you just realized the cable wasn't in and you haven't filmed any of it. There is no crew, there is no backup. You did everything yourself. - Yes. I know we paid the price. It wasn't sustainable. It wasn't a sustainable way of doing anything. It wasn't sustainable for our friendship. It wasn't sustainable for the show. And despite that fact, we made four series.

four series on Channel 4. You were so very honest about what your relationship was like with Joe Cornish. Yeah. And like, there's a bit where you just talk about how whenever things would get emotional and there was kind of like worries about status and stuff, that you would start talking in wobbly voices. Oh, yeah. Which I recognised. Just like, oh, we're going to cry. This has become too... Yeah, you know, the breathing goes weird and trying to talk like this. Listen, man, the thing is that...

You know, I come into the office a lot and I'm working on all these things the whole time. It just seems that sometimes you're, you know, not doing quite as much. That's all I'm saying. So it was a lot of that. Or it would be disagreements channeled through conversations about pop culture. And we had our biggest row was...

basically framed by a discussion about which is the most popular gaming console. And Joe, I think I was PlayStation and Joe was N64. And we had this big fucking angry, upset, wobbly voice row about me saying, "Everyone knows who Lara Croft is."

Everyone does. That is literally the center of modern culture at the moment. And you're telling me we should do a thing about Mario Kart. Who plays Mario Kart? That's for kids. It's for kids. Laura. Anyway, so it was all like that. But underlying it was all this jockeying for status and insecurity about who was doing what, who was more popular, who was funnier, all those kinds of things, which...

I think tortured both of us, but we showed it in different ways. And I spoke to Joe recently for the audio book and he sort of admitted to me that he felt like that too, but he covered it up totally. And he would sort of,

He didn't want to start dealing with it. Whereas I was always, can we talk about it? Can we talk about it? And if we can't talk about it, then let's, I don't know, have another fucking conversation about gaming consoles or whatever. Anything. I would always rather address the...

elephant in the room, you know what I mean? You, I mean, it's some of my favorite bits because again, it's really unusual to have someone who's worked in a partnership, a creative partnership, be so honest about the insecurities and jealousies that you've got. And you're very, very funny and very honest about how insecure you felt when Joe was whisked off to Hollywood and started working with Steven Spielberg and he's making all these movies and he's even making Tintin and he didn't even cast you as Captain Haddock even though that was the role that you were born to play. Yeah.

I had a sailor hat and a beard for crying out loud. What more do you want?

But all the way through, I really wanted to email you and just go, the thing is that I know that that seems like the bigger career, but if I had the choice between those two careers, I think yours is the better. Because if you're making movies, you've constantly got to go and get money. You've constantly got to talk to assholes. It's a collaborative thing, and collaborating with people is horrible. And you've just made your little world, and you're completely in control of it, and people come into it only by invitation. And I was just like, I just wanted to email you and go, I think you won.

I just want to tell you 30 years later. Good, it is about winning at the end of the day. And I'll tell Joe what you said and I'll dance around wearing this, going, I won. No, I mean, I know you're right and this is possible. LAUGHTER

And I have, I did win. Yes. No, especially when, you know, when you watch The Studio with Seth Rogen. Do you ever watch that show? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God, it's amazing. It is good. And I think it's a fairly, the people I know who are in the film industry say, yeah, it's exactly like that. Yeah.

And it looks awful. And I know from friends who have made films that it is a living nightmare. And I couldn't do it. But the fact is that when we were young, that's how our friendship formed, was dreaming about doing it. And seeing Joe actually getting it together was so painful. Because I always felt like the person I didn't want to be was one of those nearly there guys, could have been guys. Like, I don't... I think...

I didn't want to go and see Backbeat because I knew that it was about Pete Best a lot of it. And I just didn't even want to be around the story of the Nearly Beetle guy. - Yeah, yeah. - You know what I mean? - Two on the nose. - Yeah, because it was like, "Ah, I'm gonna be one of... I don't want to be one of those." 'Cause I definitely felt like, "Well, that'll probably happen to me because I know people like Joe and because I know people like Louis who always had an aura around them." You meet people like that and you're like, "Oh yeah, you're fine. You're gonna be fine."

And I never, ever felt like that, you know. And Joe was my only possible way that I could access that world. That's how it felt in my insecure moments. How does it feel now? It feels good. It feels nice and relaxed. And I'm so grateful that I didn't blow up our friendship, you know, and that I never went fully crazy with my insecurity. Yeah.

And that actually, I think that he does cringe a little bit when I talk in these terms, but he's fine with it. And I've noticed that there's a little, maybe not fully at the same level as me oversharing and over emoting. He's definitely more open.

open to that kind of thing now and Yeah, like he gave a really amazing little monologue on on our audio book podcast about having a kid You know, he's got a five-year-old daughter and he is brilliant at describing those moments, you know, he's a good writer Joe and Yeah, he went off on an amazing little speech that totally flummoxed me and

And it took me by surprise, not flummoxed me. A speech about what? About how amazing it is to have a daughter or to watch a child grow up, basically. And, you know, like he had a kid fairly late on. For a long time, I thought he never would because I thought, well, he's probably going to go for the career rather than the family. Men get to have both. Well, that's a good point. That is a good point.

When you were writing the book and you were looking at that, you were babies when you had that show and the pressure was so mad. Sort of. We were in our late 20s. Mentally still babies. Yeah, mentally definitely, yeah. Was there anything you wanted to go back and say to yourself then? Because you're so honest about how insecure you were and how difficult it was and the pressure was insane. Did you want to just go back? If there was one thing you could have gone back and said to little baby 26-year-old Adam, what would it have been?

I just don't know because I knew what I should be doing, which is relax, enjoy it. It's not that important. Calm down. This stuff will all be way better if you try less hard. And I quote Carl Pilkington in the book.

because when we went to XFM to take over from Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant in the sort of early 2000s when they were doing The Office and they had a show on there, and me and Joe got to fill in for them, but Carl Pilkington, who was their producer, wanted just to check out what we were thinking as far as what were we going to do.

And we had loads of ideas. Oh, we're going to do jingles. We're going to do this little skit. We're going to do stuff about this and that. And he's like, right, you don't try too hard. People can see, they can hear it when you're trying too hard and they don't like it. Makes them uncomfortable. And that's all he said on the subject, really. Yeah, I mean, he wasn't trying hard there. No, exactly. So that's proof of the pudding. But of course he was right. And I didn't want to hear it.

Because I felt like, well, that's all I've got. All I've got is preparing and over-preparing. And I don't know what just relaxing and enjoying yourself looks like. So I don't know what I would have told the younger version of myself because I wouldn't have been able to take the advice. You know what to do, but how do you do it? How do you relax? How do you look like you don't give a fuck if you really, really do? Yeah.

You know what I mean? And at that stage in your career, obviously you have to give a fuck or you wouldn't go anywhere. So yeah, you can't relax at that stage. How do you think, like sidebar, I always remember the person who made that, I watched this person do that. Like they started off, Stuart Lee I'm talking about. Yes, okay. And...

Stuart Lee, in my mind, when he was a younger comedian, I always thought that he was incredibly self-conscious and kind of vain. And I didn't like him for that reason because I felt like I'm like that too. And I don't want to watch another guy like that. And then at a certain point, it's like he just shed that.

and he sort of didn't give a fuck. And it sort of happened over a period of a couple of years in the early 2000s or something. And then suddenly he was this different entity. And I just thought, how do you do that? I have no idea how you do that. What?

Well, I think you have done that. This is my last question, so we must go to the audience questions. But you end the book on a really hopeful note. Because you've now written two books about your past, you've gone through all the things that your mother left behind or your father left behind. And you end the book with just this sudden kind of look to the future, just going, I've been stuck in the past too long. I don't have a problem with the past anymore. I think of it as a place where something wonderful hasn't yet happened.

And you describe yourself as being a deluded hopefulist. And I interviewed Melvin Bragg recently, and he was saying that people think it's more intellectual to be anxious and depressed, and it's not. It's actually smarter and harder to be cheerful and see the good in the world. And it seems like that's where you are now. It's this very sudden kind of like, it feels like having written these two books...

You feel like you're kind of there now? You're in your life? You're kind of... I don't know, almost like your life is starting now, having dealt with all this stuff? Is that where you are? Are you hopeful about the future now? Do you feel ready to be you? No, I'm in agony and I just want to die. Any questions? No, I do. I do. I feel, you know... My darkest moments are when I'm embarrassed about how sweet my life is. I feel like I don't really deserve it and there are other people...

much more deserving and I feel embarrassed and a bit of a fraud but I

Those are the dark moments. Most of all, mainly I just feel like, yeah, it's great. And I feel very happy to be able to do what I love doing. And it seems like people respond to it in a way that I really appreciate. So, yeah, I can't complain at all. So if I ask you the biggest question of all, are you happy? What is your answer? No, I do think so, yeah. Around the time I started writing this book, I wasn't at all happy.

I was really unhappy and I felt mad and I got therapy and I did all the things you're supposed to do. I don't know how much the therapy helped. I think it helped a bit. What I think, I think you just recalibrate, you just wait it out and things lift and things soften. And you know, if you're lucky, um, it's okay. Everything is a phase that passes after a while. And, uh,

That's what my experience was, really, that things improved. And everything that was excruciatingly painful about five years ago is now not. And things that really, really were terrifying to me are slightly less so. And that's why it is such a beautiful book. It sounds un-Adam Buxton-like to say that you go on a journey in that book. A journey? In your way, yes.

you go on a journey in that book. It's such a beautiful book. You must buy a copy. I'm sure that's why you're here tonight. That's the end of my questions now. Thank you, Catlin. That was so nice of you. Thank you for all that prep and research. Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Leila Ismail and edited by Mark Roberts. Visit intelligencesquared.com slash attend to find out about everything we've got coming up.