Sam McAlister on Scandals, Scoops, and the Prince Andrew Interview (Part Two)
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Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode, we're rejoining for part two of our conversation with Sam McAllister.

the BAFTA and Emmy-nominated producer and author of Scoops: Behind the Scenes of the BBC's Most Shocking Interviews. This is the second part of our two-part episode, Sam McAllister on Scandals, Scoops and the Prince Andrew interview. If you haven't heard part one, do just jump back an episode and get up to speed. But now it's time to rejoin the conversation, recorded recently at the Kiln Theatre in London.

Here's our host for the evening, journalist and broadcaster Jenny Cleman with more. You're not just all about Prince Andrew. You have booked many other really big names, big interviews of the past decade have been down to you. Who was the hardest to secure, Prince Andrew aside? I think probably the one that I didn't manage to secure, which was Sir Philip Green.

So I spent maybe two years talking to SPG as he's affectionately known or they tried to turn him into PG. And usually with Sir Philip, it goes a little bit like this and I won't use foul language, but just picture the scene.

So you ring up your journalist, he goes, "Yeah, all right, what do you want?" And then you say that you're a journalist and then basically tells you to go F yourself. But he and I managed to create a kind of friendship on the phone. I spent about a year trying to persuade him to do the interview. I mean, I spoke to his son, I think I spoke to his daughter. I bumped into him in Topshop one day. I kind of like followed him down the street, but not in a sinister way, just to be clear. Just to, you know, "I'm from Newsnight, we've emailed." He must have thought, "Psychopath."

But he then gave the interview to Robert Peston. And I remember being like coming out of the district line, you know, on the tube on the way home, offer a cheeky kebab, no doubt, or to go to Sainsbury's to get some pasta or something. And I saw, you know, the tweet from Robert Peston. So Philip Green gives first exclusive interview to Robert Peston. And I just remember going, boo!

so amazing conversations and uh fascinating insights but oh holy hell a year and then robert peston got the interview sad face that's very annoying do you know why that happened

I think it was a safer bet. There's a certain structure that certain presenters and certain programmes follow. And I suspect that SPG felt that he would be able to make the most of Robert's style. It would have been harder with Emily.

it would have been riskier for her and riskier for him. So the pattern that Robert follows, he's an excellent presenter, obviously, but it's a much more conservative way. With Newsnight, there's always that big risk that's just something, some curveball by some annoying producer who's found some little knot about you that will suddenly come out live on air. I think there's less risk on other programmes. And if you were still working in the job today, who would be top of your list? It's got to be President Trump.

Not Elon Musk. So we did Elon. I negotiated an interview with Elon, so I've met Elon. But I haven't met President Trump yet. I don't work at the BBC anymore. But there was a time when I tried to persuade my editor to let me go to Scotland. I offered to pay myself, just to be clear, for any licence fee payers out there. But do you remember when he had that golf place and everyone was talking about the golf? And I said to my editor, just let me go. I don't know anything about golf. I'll be in high heels. I'll probably end up dead. But...

just let me go to Scotland if I can meet him I'm 100% sure I can convince him to do the first interview and there are structures and editorial guidelines and things like that that were quite tiresome for doing things like that and they understandably and rightly said that I couldn't go um

But, yeah, it's just because you just don't know what he's going to say. And most political figures, you know absolutely to the most boring second exactly what they're going to say. So for the magic of live television and for the magic of news, he would be at the moment the most interesting person to have in front of, well, it would be Victoria Derbyshire nowadays. So how do you avoid...

over promising when you're trying to get somebody to give an interview how do you avoid first of all you avoid making concessions you avoid saying okay we won't talk about the thing you're uncomfortable with but how do you avoid saying this will clear your name this will be a great opportunity surely it's very tempting to do that

- Yeah, I think because telling the truth has always been a problem that I've had. And so in a sense, I think I was beset by just always telling the truth to the people that were coming on. And in a sense, I think that's probably what set me apart. So it is very easy just to try and close a deal. I mean, I teach negotiation now at London School of Economics, and it's so easy just to go in for the kill because you want to win. But often the win doesn't look the way you think it does. You know, the Prince Andrew one is a classic example.

13 months, turned it down twice, everything that could go wrong in theory went wrong. So I would just tell the absolute stellar truth. This will not be easy.

You don't get the questions beforehand. And if you've seen the movie, you will not be surprised to hear, now that you've spent some time with me, that I did say to him, the only things I know about you are Air Mars Andy and Randy Andy. And that does not speak well to your current predicament and to what the public think of you. So I found it really easy not to overpromise because overpromising is lying. And if you overpromise once and you don't deliver...

then your integrity, it's over. So I knew if I ever misled anyone once, they would never, ever trust me or want to work with me again. And trust is everything in this trade because you're asking someone important to take a massive risk. So why do they do it? A combination of reasons. So sometimes it is they have something to sell. Yeah.

No comment. It could be that they have the misfortune to be in government and they literally draw the short straw and have to come on Newsnight because they run some government department. Democracy can be such a bore for them. It could be that they have a product or a movie. It could be that they're announcing some huge geopolitical thing. You know, they're a head of state.

It could be ego. And some people just like being on telly. And, you know, ultimately, any of those combination of factors means that you have a chance of persuading people to do it. But I would say probably most of the time it's against their best interest. So it has to be one of those factors that will get them over the line to risk it all in front of Emily Mailers.

Going back to Elon Musk, who you booked, but at a time when he perhaps was less antagonistic to media. Nobody knew who he was. He didn't have this axe to grind. He also didn't have his own platform. Everybody's got a multitude of ways now of getting their message out. How would you...

How would you make a case for someone like that, that they should give a proper interview to legacy media now? Well, he still does. I mean, the thing about Elon is when you do negotiation or when you're doing any type of this kind of work, you just have to make yourself like zero ego and you just have to kind of put yourself into the shoes. So if I were in Elon Musk's shoes, which are probably more expensive than mine because these are 30 quid off ASOS.

But other brands are available, to be clear. They're actually Topshop, anyway. That's unfortunate. But in any event, if you put yourself in Elon's very expensive shoes, no doubt, although I bet he wears the same outfit every day. I mean, so do I, so I'm not judging. But in his world, it is an avalanche of requests.

So the only way really I expect to get his attention is not the way that I did it the last time, which was the formal channels, you know, the head of comms at Tesla, get together, put together a pitch, make some suggestions of interesting questions. Now it would probably be, you know, a tweet. It would be...

be that I would expect that the only thing that might catch his interest is who do I know in common with Elon? Well, I know Piers Morgan. Piers Morgan knows Trump. Trump knows Elon. So what I do is I probably would say to Piers, I'm going to do a cheeky tweet for Elon. Would you mind retweeting it for me? I think that's probably my best chance of getting a cheeky interview with Elon Musk. But he would probably say, as he did to one of the poor BBC correspondents called James Clayton some time ago,

Yeah, sure, in 45 minutes. So that for me is quite challenging in being in Kilburn right now. But maybe if you give it 48 minutes, we might be able to make it. But I feel cheekiness and being a maverick would be my best chance with Elon.

every person has a different answer to that question. And I think the mistake most people make is they make the same answer to the question. They go through the same procedure, the same bland email, the same bland pitch, the same lack of character or energy or kind of like resilience

They don't like rejection. I'm not bothered by any of that. I just keep going. And yeah, maybe I might do that little tweet later and see how it goes. Maybe we could have him here at the Kiln. Would anyone come? You'd all come, right? Yeah, I know. I'll come too, but I get a comp. Yeah, sure thing.

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To what extent then do you put loads of time into researching people before you even approach them? I never meet anyone without having researched them. How much research? Five minutes max. I mean, look, I used to do criminal defense, so I'd receive a brief and then someone's life would be in my hands the next day. You know, I was...

so so under qualified in comparison to the importance for them and similarly I would have to call complete strangers about whom I knew nothing or their briefs I knew nothing about geopolitical figures economic figures and I remember actually one of the first calls I made was to a guy called Joe Stiglitz who's obviously a Nobel Prize winning economist I mean at that stage I knew about as much about economics as I could put on the back of a stamp

So I remember having to call this Nobel Prize winner and I said, look, I'm so sorry just to let you know, you know, I'm not stupid, but I know nothing about your field. So I do apologise if I ask questions that are basically insulting. And he was like, there are no such things as insulting questions. There are only insulting answers. And I thought I was lucky to have that conversation with him. But...

I researched to the best of my abilities for five minutes that any reasonably well-educated person can kind of work out what's an opening question that will keep their attention. What are the three things they've spoken about most recently or written about? What do they show on their social media? Do we have someone in common? Do we have an educational place in column? Do we have an experience in column? So,

catchy opening question, show that I've actually had the time to look into them and I haven't insulted them by treating them the same as everyone else, and then a point of connection of some kind that I've managed to work out in that five minutes. I feel like I should be taking notes. This is brilliant stuff. Given that...

people are contactable now in a way that they weren't 10 years ago. Do you think booking people is easier or harder nowadays? I think it's easier because of the contact, because sometimes it would take me like six months to find someone. I mean, I was looking for Reverend Paul Flowers. Do you guys remember him? It was the Crystal Methodist, basically. He was like the chair of co-op. And then very unfortunately for him, he was like caught in some sting where he may or may not have had a penchant for crystal meth, hence the name, and Rent Boys.

So slightly socially awkward, given he was a Methodist minister, and he was like all over the front pages, and I was given the task to find him. I mean, it took me months, but now there is an ease to find, but the problem...

problem is there are a thousand other people. It's not just the BBC and Sky, it's a thousand podcasts, a thousand influencers, a thousand YouTube channels. So the volume of requests is much bigger, but the accessibility is definitely a lot easier than the way I found Reverend Flowers. We don't need to go into that. And also there is the whole world of long form podcasts where people feel that if they talk to

joe rogan or any of those kinds well we're gonna hire you now because you spoke to joe i did speak to joe i have joe rogan envy right now yeah i have spoken to joe rogan it is it's you know with a podcast like that if you agree to do something like that you know you're going to speak for two and a half hours and so you can sort of do a manifesto for yourself i imagine that it is much harder to book people for those kinds of accountability interviews that are going to be shorter and more um

more difficult to handle. Well, that's interesting you say that. I mean, I would think that you're exposed to a lot more risk in two and a half hours than you are in seven minutes. Yes. Well, especially if you're Prince Andrew. Particularly if you're Prince Andrew. I can't imagine. Well, you should never have agreed to 48. But there we are. They never set a time, so I didn't mention it, you know. I mean, usually with those kinds of situations, you have a handler, okay? So let's say you're Justin Trudeau, who we interviewed, or Julian Assange, whoever it was. There's someone there literally with a timer, right?

giving you the daggers, kind of like counting down the seconds, and then they just literally drag them away. So if you go over seven minutes, it's seven minutes, one second, whoever it is, Emmanuel Macron or Trudeau, they're dragged out by a handler and you're kind of like chastised. So I think actually not saying very much for seven minutes is quite simple in comparison to not exposing yourself to massive risk for two and a half hours. So I would always choose seven minutes.

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Your path to the BBC was not the conventional one. You were a criminal barrister beforehand, as you said. Do you think...

Today, it is easier or harder to break into this kind of work than it was when you were trying to break into it. I mean, I think it's impossible. I mean, I was just like an anti-meritocratic accident, for which I apologise, because I now talk a lot about social mobility and all those kinds of class issues. I come from a background that my parents, my mum and dad left school at 14, were East End market people, cross me and you'll hear it. You know, and my nana left school at 13, and...

and lots of my family could barely read or write. I'm the only person in my family that's ever gone to university. And so to end up...

working as a barrister was just so completely insane. I'd never met a lawyer until I became one. And then I gave that up because I hated it with a visceral passion. It was miserable as sin. And I had nothing to do. So I had to find something. And I had three friends with interesting jobs. And I asked each of them if I could go and spend a day at their jobs.

and one of them was at the BBC. And in a moment of, you know, anti-meritocratic generosity, they allowed me to spend a day on a legal programme called Law in Action on Radio 4...

Had that legal grounding so they think you know the law I knew about like rape alleged but I didn't know about housing or anything But I kind of gave the impression that I kind of you know understood stuff and then did that crazy research So I got there by pure luck Don't let this worry, but I have no journalistic trading whatsoever. That's fine Didn't I never got sued so far, but I don't know how you would get in now It's very hard

It's very expensive to work in the media. It's very expensive to get the training. The salaries are pretty low, particularly in somewhere like London. So if you don't come from a background in which you can receive financial support or maybe live with your folks or have access to that expensive education,

I couldn't in good conscience probably tell most people you should chase this dream to the end because you have to feed yourself, you know? And it's very, very hard. 8% working class backgrounds in the media. It's one of the worst stats. It's worse than law or banking or, you know, medicine. It's the worst out there. So sadly...

Very hard to get into, but boy, does it need mavericks. So if you're out there and you're a maverick and you need to get into the media, please keep on trying because we really need you. Is that what you say to people when they ask you for advice? Then people who come from these non-traditional backgrounds that are not represented in the media, do you say...

you shouldn't really do it because it's not going to be great for you or do you say we need people like you in the media well it's both though isn't it but you have to be honest you know the honest truth is that if you are trying to get into one of these fields and you're not going to be able to afford your rent then that really that really matters you know i can't in good conscience say that this is going to be an easy field to get into even if you're very established with the current crisis for freelancers and everything that happened after the you know

Well, the strikes that went on, there are people I know who've had 20 years of career in the media who now struggle to pay the bills. So I'm all about chasing the dream. The optimistic side of me, who is a dream chaser still and will be until the day I die, says chase the dream, but only if you can afford to eat.

I'm going to come to you for your questions in a moment. So I'm sure you've got many of them, but formulate them into coherent, pithy sentences. I'm sure you had coherent, pithy sentences already. Jenny, don't insult the audience. I know, I know, it's true. I want to ask about what you're doing now. You're a visiting fellow at LSE teaching negotiation. Yeah, it sounds so posh, doesn't it? It sounds great. Thank you. How have you found...

and connecting with this new generation of people who are going to do broadly the kind of thing that you've done. Yeah, I've really loved it. I think it's... I really like doing things in reality rather than theorising about them. So there's a lot of conversation about, you know, the difference in...

in the generations and the way we relate to each other. And obviously we did a lot of coverage about that on Newsnight and we talk about it in theory, but being in the room with a group of 18 and 19 year olds and the kind of culture clash moments that we have that are either humorous or possibly career ending, um, are fascinating. So, um,

I found that we've come to a sort of like a beautiful understanding because when they arrive, everybody gets their laptop out, right? So they put the laptop up, they get the mobile phone out, they make no eye contact with the strange older woman sitting in the room who's going to lecture them. And then they just kind of, you know, they keep their eyes down and wait for me to speak.

So I do this horrific thing, which I'll probably get sacked for at some stage, where I ask them to raise their hand if they said hello to me when they arrived. Oh, God. Tumbleweed. I then ask them to raise their hand if they came and shook my hand or introduced themselves. Double tumbleweed. Hatred is high. People are looking for the exit. But then I say, look, you guys, you only get one chance to make a first impression, except for today.

"Everyone please leave, put your laptops away, put your phones away, go outside, come back in, introduce yourself to me, smile at me, shake my hand." I said, "Because that's what old people like me expect." And old people like me are going to be interviewing you for your job at the shiny law firm that you want to go to. And we expect to be smiled at, we expect to have our names asked, we expect firm handshakes, not limp handshakes, and we expect eye contact.

So they hate on me for possibly those first 10 minutes, but just such a valuable lesson. And they teach me a million things too. Our cultural references are very different.

And our politics, which I try not to share because I'm impartial and I don't want to stoke things up. But we have honest conversations about that. So I'm very lucky to spend time with them. And they are sometimes a bit unlucky to spend time with me. But it's been fascinating and it's given me a real insight into, you know, that cohort. My son's 18, but I don't have experience of, you know, that group of brilliant young minds. And yeah, I really enjoy it.

sounds like a really excellent class slightly terrifying yeah well i would like to thank you sam for such a warm and engaging and fascinating genuinely enlightening conversation uh and also to all of you for all of your questions really really great questions you can pick up a copy of uh scoops in the foyer sam is going to be signing books

And so you can have a chat to her there if you buy a book. I even brought a posh pen. I did an interview the other day and I had a teddy bear pen and it didn't go well. So I brought a posh pen today. Thanks again to Intelligence Squared for organising this event, for having us both. Please join me for a round of applause for Sam. Thank you for coming. Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This was produced by myself, Mia Sorrenti, and it was edited by Bea Duncan.

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