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Managing up, with Melody Wilding

2025/5/7
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Melody Wilding: 向上管理并非一味讨好上司,而是为了自身职业发展创造有利条件。它包含了管理自身情绪和影响他人心理状态的双重策略。有效的向上管理,需要在工作中找到平衡点,既能积极合作,又能维护自身利益。我提出的十个关键对话,涵盖了目标对齐、风格匹配、边界设定、以及应对阻力等多个方面,旨在帮助职场人士在与上司的互动中获得成功。 首先,与上司达成目标一致至关重要。这并非简单地询问上司的优先事项,而是深入了解上司的工作目标、衡量指标,以及对优秀表现的定义,从而确保自身工作与组织目标相符。缺乏深入沟通可能导致工作被边缘化甚至裁撤,我自身经历就是一个例子。 其次,要了解上司的沟通风格。人们常将冲突归因于个人性格,但实际上很多冲突源于沟通风格差异。我将沟通风格分为四类,并建议根据上司的风格调整自身沟通方式,例如,对于结果导向型上司,应直接表达核心观点;对于注重和谐型上司,则应提供充分的背景信息。 设定边界也是向上管理的关键。职场人士常在团队合作与自我保护之间难以平衡。我建议通过提问、寻求信息,以及运用‘权衡取舍’的方法来设定边界,既能维护自身利益,又能展现团队合作精神。 最后,要学会应对阻力。当遇到上司的阻力时,不要简单地妥协或对抗,而是尝试从团队合作的角度出发,解释自身行为,并寻求解决方案。 总而言之,向上管理是一个持续学习和调整的过程,需要不断反思和改进。 Laura Vanderkam: 作为一名播客主持人,我从Melody Wilding的分享中受益匪浅。她的向上管理技巧,不仅适用于职场,也适用于人际交往的方方面面。通过了解自身和对方的沟通风格,设定清晰的边界,并积极寻求共识,我们可以更好地与他人合作,实现个人和团队的目标。Melody Wilding的观点为我提供了新的视角,帮助我更好地理解和处理职场关系。

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You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hey, listeners. We know you're all about making the most of your time. So why not turn your lunch break into a growth break with Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman. Every Tuesday, Ken sits down with top experts to explore the real questions that help you thrive at work and in life. Questions like, what are the 10 best foods for your memory? Or how can you ask for the raise you want and actually get it?

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My dad works in B2B marketing, but I never really knew what he was doing.

I never really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for career day and told everyone in my class he was a big ROAS man. Then he just kept saying things like, "The bigger the ROAS, the better," over and over. My friends still laugh at me to this day. I think it means calculating a return on ad spend. One thing's for sure, I'll be known as the ROAS man's kid for the rest of my days. Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer?

Why?

You ruined my life, Dad. Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people who do. And with ads on LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry, likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high-quality leads today. We'll even give you $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com slash customer to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. ♪

Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's episode is going to be a longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.

So today I am delighted to welcome Melody Wilding to the show. Melody is the author of the brand new book, Managing Up, How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge. So Melody, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have you. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Yeah, my background is as a therapist, and that's how I started my career. I teach human behavior at the graduate level and am an executive coach. And all of my work is really about helping people find what I call your professional power position, where you are able to manage your own psychology at work, your own insecurities, doubts, hang-ups, but you're also...

Tackling the other side of the equation, which is influencing other people's psychology. And that's where managing up comes in. Yeah. Well, I have to say, I get a lot of career books, leadership books, et cetera, crossing my desk. There are not that many that go in that direction, right? That are about managing up. And so I wonder how you came to this topic and why it was interesting to you. Yeah. Well, yeah.

A big thing is because my first book, Trust Yourself, came out in 2021. And that was really the managing yourself side of the equation. And what I kept hearing from people over and over, regardless of what level they were at, whether they were more junior, but most of my clients are mid to senior level. And there was this theme of...

Where all of my confidence breaks down is when I have to deal with people that feel more intimidating to me, or I'm in those rooms or those conversations that feel higher stakes. And there was this consistent theme about managing up, dealing with people in authority, navigating politics and power dynamics. And so I think for so many of us, especially those who are recovering people pleasers, this is not a skill you're really...

taught. Yet, so much of it comes down to being able to leverage your empathy, your emotional intelligence, just channel it in a different way. Yeah. And one of the things you say in the book is, I mean, this is not about...

you know, flattering your boss. Like managing up is not purely about making sure your boss thinks he or she is the most awesome person in the world. And by reflection, you are too, I guess. Maybe you can talk a little bit more about what it truly means and why this might be a benefit to someone beyond just, you know, getting in good with the people in charge. Yeah.

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because that is most of the time we hear managing up and we think sucking up, right? We equate those two things together. And it makes sense because traditionally for decades, that's how it was portrayed. If you think about like Wolf of Wall Street or any of those old movies, the person who's managing up is the person who's running behind the boss with the coffee order and just the yes person. And the workplace has changed, but

Also, what people want out of work has changed. And so rather than having that subordinate order taker mentality where it's just I managing up is me pleasing my boss, what I am advocating for. And when I see people do this successfully, they realize that managing up is something you actually do for yourself.

It's something you do to create the conditions for your success, whether that is pushing back, giving feedback up the chain of command, being able to set limits and expectations around the work, getting clarity around what success does look like in your role so you can track against that, advocating for your own advancement. Those are all things that put you in the best position to get what you need from the people who are in charge.

Absolutely. So you have 10 conversations in this book that you want people to have with their managers as part of managing this relationship. We're not going to be able to talk through all 10, unfortunately, but I do want to talk about a few of them. Why don't we start with the alignment conversation? I guess we truly want to know what the person sees as good, right? Yeah.

That's right. We have to start there because if we don't know what we're trying to work towards, we're going to be spinning our wheels, right? And that's where when we fail to have the alignment conversation, we feel frustrated. We feel like we're sidelined because unbeknownst to us, we may not be working on what our boss or the organization actually sees as important or promotable work.

And so that's why it is the first conversation in the book. It is the most foundational. It also tends to be a easy entry point because so much of it is about observation, noticing what is important to your manager, but also asking good questions. So this is not having to come right out and advocate for yourself. It's mostly being a good listener.

Yeah, we're not starting with promote me. We're going first in with being like, well, you can tell me what are some good questions I should be asking a manager in order to make sure that our visions of success are aligned. Correct. Yeah. Ask a better question, you get a better answer. And so instead of just saying, well, what are your priorities? You might get a surface level answer from that. A few of my favorites from that chapter, one of them is what are the metrics your boss is discussing with you?

Because that gives you almost a very instant shortcut into what your manager is being evaluated against. And guess what? They're going to care a lot and give a lot of attention to that. So that's one of them. Another one is, what does good performance look like in this role to you? And then pause, let your manager answer and say, great, what does great performance look like now? And you may put a timeframe around that over the next three or six months or by the end of the year.

But that one's really useful because that comparison between good and great, it helps get under the hood of maybe some of the unspoken or abstract, the intangible qualities that your manager or the organization sees make someone a high performer that may not come out in a road mapping or KPI exercise.

Yeah. And you mentioned that earlier in your career at one point, like sometimes all these alignment conversations or sensei will surface some things like you learn that your role is expendable. And I guess that's good to know. I mean, you went through that in your career at one point, right? I did. I talk about that in that first chapter. It was really something I kept hidden for many years because I was embarrassed by it. And yeah,

Yes, I had failed to have the alignment conversation deep enough. I had surface level alignment with my manager. What are we accomplishing day to day, week to week? But I really failed to push further and say, why is what I'm working on

important to the business? And how is that being reported? And what budget is going into this? I did not dig deeper. I didn't have the courage to do it, frankly. I think maybe I was afraid of the answer now as I reflect on it further. But yes, you know, when time came for cuts, that my role was eliminated because it wasn't core. It was seen as a money pit.

And this is where, yes, we're not going to get to all 10 conversations today, but where some of the other ones could save you. For example, if I had been...

on top of having more of the visibility or the networking conversation, then I might have had other advocates behind my boss who knew about my skills beyond just what I was doing on this one project who may have been willing to pull me over to their teams, but I didn't. So it's an extreme example of what can happen. Absolutely. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Melody Wilding.

Hey, Before Breakfast listeners. We know you're all about making the most of your time. So here's a question. What if your lunch break could actually help you level up? Check out Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman. Every Tuesday, Ken sits down with top experts to unpack the real questions that help you thrive at work, at home, and in your own head. We're talking questions like, what are the 10 best foods for your memory?

How can you ask for the raise you want and actually get it? What's the key to finally changing your life? If you love thoughtful advice and practical strategies, just like you get here, Front Row Seat will give you the clarity and confidence to get better, move up, and lead well, personally and professionally. So take a smart step forward today. Search Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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Well, I am back with Melody Wilding, who is talking about her brand new book, Managing Up. We're learning how to deal with the people in charge, not just to flatter them, but in order to make sure that we get what we want out of our careers. So we were talking about aligning and making sure that what success looks like for our managers is informing what we are doing with our time at work. Another one

Another one of these important conversations, though, is the style one. And I wonder how much of clashes or people perceive as trouble and like I have a terrible boss or something like that is a different style and how we can sort of suss out what this person is.

A lot. To answer your question, a lot of what I see conflict tension in the workplace does come down to a difference in styles. Because what we often perceive as someone being difficult, you know, they're hard to work with is actually a, we're talking past each other in terms of our preferences, our approaches, our values around the work.

And so how can we suss this out? You said we need to really focus on decoding the people around us because when we can understand that, when we can put their behavior in context and see this is a product of how this person's lens and this is not them trying to talk over me, railroad me, we stop taking the work so personally and we can make thoughtful adjustments to how we do that. So

So in the book, I talk about how if you look at a lot of the psychological research, communication styles really break down into two dimensions. We have dominance, how assertive and how much control does someone like, and we have sociability, how much connection and rapport building, interaction with other people does the person want.

So high or low, you plot that and we get, again, broadly speaking, four different communication styles. There are lots of different models for this. In the book, I call them the four C's. And let's just take a classic example. You may be working for someone who in the book I would call a commander. This is someone who is highly dominant and lower on sociability.

These people are very results oriented. They get to the point fast. They move quickly. They really don't care as much about people's feelings and consensus. And so sometimes they can seem a bit dismissive and dominant, frankly.

Now, you may be someone who is what I would call a caretaker, the exact opposite, someone who is low on dominance and high on sociability. You value stability, harmony. You do value relationships. You want everyone to be happy and on board. You care about morale.

And a classic clash between these two people is that the caretaker is someone who likes to think before they act, who may need questions in advance, who want to deliberate before they make a decision. Whereas the commander is someone who just wants you to get right to the point.

And so if you as a caretaker employee are approaching your manager and you're leading with all of the context and background and the theory and how we got here, your manager is likely going to cut you off and say, that's great. I don't really care. Can you tell me the main point of what you need from me right now? And that's when you feel dismissed, right? You feel like I put so much time into this and you're just, you're just cutting me off here. And so,

Not only, again, we can put that into context and not take it personally that my boss hates me and I should just leave, but we can also just make little tweaks. I call it flexing in the book, flexing your style. You don't have to change who you are and what you value. You just change how you package and present it.

So instead of leading with all the context, you give your executive summary or a few bullet points. And at the end of the day, that benefits you because you eliminate a lot of stress for yourself. Your message actually lands. And again, you're not...

You're not not being true to yourself. You are still getting what's important to you across, but in a way they're actually going to hear. And I suppose that goes in the other direction, too. I mean, you can envision the opposite where you have more of a caretaker boss and you are very kind of to the point kind of person. You're walking in and saying, I want this. And the person's like, whoa, can't do that right now. And because they want the whole context, they want you to lead up to it. Like, why or why am I asking for this? Like, what's the background? Who else has done this? They want all that sort of information first.

That's exactly right. Yeah. And you can make that thoughtful adjustment pretty easily, right? Just come with a little bit of the background and that's it. Yeah. Really quick story. Gets them all at ease. It'll all be good.

And part of this, though, of course, is you have to know yourself then, because I'm sure there's plenty of people like, well, I don't know which C I am. So how are we how do we how do we go about figuring that out? Yes. Well, in the book, there's there's a much deeper kind of diagnostic that it that it walks through all of the different values, the strengths, the weaknesses of all of the different types. But in that chapter, there's one exercise that actually is my favorite in the entire book.

I call it the me manual, which is you creating a guide to yourself as a professional.

This is something you do first and foremost for yourself because most of us never slow down to think about our own preferences. It's just the water we swim in. So we've never taken the time to articulate, actually, how do I make decisions? How do I like to receive feedback? What are some of the maybe unspoken expectations I have about how quickly work should be done or when my hours on or off are?

And so your Mew manual actually forces you to get that down on paper. It's almost like your operation manual to you.

It can absolutely be something you share with your manager. I have people who are in workplace cultures where they bring this to their boss and they say, listen, I want to give you the cheat sheet for getting the best performance out of me. And we can talk through some highlights here. And I have had people who say their boss is like, this is pretty cool. Can I do this too? Because I want to give this to my leader. So you never know the reaction you might get. But

But at the very least, it gives you a way to be able to assert your preferences and your style when you need to. So an example is, let's say that a new project team is coming together. And I'm using this example intentionally because managing up, especially in today's workplace...

It doesn't always look like, or rather I should say, it has to look like extending beyond just our direct supervisor because we're dealing with other people in power beyond our boss. And so let's say you have a new project team coming together and there's other folks from cross-functional divisions who have more authority than you.

What I always suggest is that people at the beginning of those types of relationships, you are the one to say, we are not always going to see eye to eye. And when we have those situations where we have to work through some sort of conflict or tension or prioritization, how do you want to approach that? What are the sorts of things you weigh or that are important to you that I could bring to that conversation?

And you let that person respond and you say, that's so helpful for me. Here's what I would really value. Here's how I tend to think through these things. So it becomes more of a two-way street rather than you just becoming a chameleon who's adapting to everybody else. Absolutely. One of the other conversations is about boundaries. And, you know, this is a podcast about time management. And so one of the things that obviously...

you know, keeps people from managing their time in the way that they want is that their manager is making demands that are perhaps not helping in that regard. So let's say that your boss is making demands that is making your life bad. How can you approach them to get to a better place? Yes. Well, let's start with the fact that...

why is this so hard for us? And because most of us were trying to straddle this tightrope of wanting to be a team player, right? We need to create that perception that we're collaborative. We step up when it matters. But at the same time, we don't want to be a pushover. And I always say you teach people how to treat you. And so having those boundaries, we want to make sure we're teaching people to respect our time and our bandwidth.

And so start by asking questions because so often when yet another thing is dumped on our plate, yet another task is given to us, we go to one extreme or the other. We go to the extreme of the people pleaser, passive, sure, I'll get it done. I'll figure out how to fit it in. Or we are already at our limit and we snap back. And even if it's our manager, we might say, I can't believe you're

you're giving this to us, we're already underwater. So rather than those two extremes, ask questions first. Buy yourself a little bit of time to calm down and get more details about what's involved because you may not always know on the face of it, is this something I want to say yes to or no?

You can ask things like, what's driving the urgency here? What's the real deadline? Who else is this visible to or who else is going to be involved? Why did myself or my team come to mind for this at first? And that can give you a lot of good details to decide maybe this is a good exposure opportunity or a skill building opportunity for me or somebody else on my team.

It can also give you information about maybe I can redirect this to somebody else. Maybe you find actually this is a process that sits with operations or HR, not with us. And it gives you a leg to stand on to redirect it. That's one thing is to ask questions first so you know what's involved.

In that chapter, I give a number of other different frameworks you can use for setting boundaries. My favorite of those is the trade-off approach, which is essentially saying, I hear that you want both X and Y done. In order to do that, then we need to delegate or deprioritize something else. Are you okay with that?

When you do that, you're setting up a... Actually, what's in research is called forced choice, right? You are setting up the illusion of control that someone can only choose from A or B. And...

you're just highlighting the reality that both of these things cannot be done. But you're also approaching it from a problem-solving perspective. You're not just shutting the request down and saying, we can't do that. You're approaching it to say, okay, I understand I want to make both of these things happen, but something has to give. And subtly, especially if this is someone who is maybe a level or two above you,

It's important to also signal that you do have some recognition of the hierarchy. You are putting it back in the other person's court to say, you make the call. I can make a recommendation to say based on from where I sit, I think we should prioritize A and then pick up B in a couple of weeks. But at the end of the day, it's your call. You tell us what to do and then we'll execute that. Yeah, I love it. It's like what we do with toddlers. You can wear the red pants or the blue pants. It's like, I don't want to wear them.

panty pants. Well, that's not really a choice. Do you know what is so funny? As I have been talking about the book, that example has been brought up over, I would say a dozen times now. It's so interesting. Yeah, that's how we do forced choice with everyone. All right. Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then we'll be back with more from Melody Wilding. Hey, Before Breakfast listeners, we know you're all about making the most of your time. So here's a question.

What if your lunch break could actually help you level up? Check out Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman. Every Tuesday, Ken sits down with top experts to unpack the real questions that help you thrive at work, at home, and in your own head. We're talking questions like, what are the 10 best foods for your memory? How can you ask for the raise you want and actually get it? What's the key to finally changing your life?

If you love thoughtful advice and practical strategies, just like you get here, Front Row Seat will give you the clarity and confidence to get better, move up, and lead well, personally and professionally. So take a smart step forward today. Search Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman and listen wherever you get your podcasts. My dad works in B2B marketing, but I never really...

I never really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for career day and told everyone in my class he was a big ROAS man. Then he just kept saying things like, "The bigger the ROAS, the better," over and over. My friends still laugh at me to this day. I think it means calculating a return on ad spend. One thing's for sure, I'll be known as the ROAS man's kid for the rest of my days. Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer?

Why? You ruined my life, Dad. Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people who do. And with ads on LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry, likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high-quality leads today. We'll even give you $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash customer to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be.

Thank you.

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Vehicles projected resale value is specific to the 2025 model year. For more information, visit kellybluebookskbb.com. Kelly Blue Book is a registered trademark of Kelly Blue Book Co. Inc. Toyota, let's go places. Well, I am back with Melody Wilding, who is the author of the new book, Managing Up, about getting what we want from the people in charge. Let's talk about if it doesn't happen the first time, though. Maybe you ask for something.

You try to have a conversation about boundaries or even about, you know, future promotions or anything like that. And you get a lot of resistance. Is this just the way it is or are the things we can do to kind of work through the resistance over time?

I would say there's always things you can do. Everyone has their threshold of how much they are willing to do. But in the book, I took a lot of care to make sure that there was a lot of tips and strategies for what do I do when this happens, or I get this objection, or this type of resistance. So a moment ago, we were talking about boundaries.

And a common form of resistance you may get there is when someone tries to guilt trip you to say, oh, but I thought you were a team player. I really expected more from you. When that happens, you can actually turn that assumption around and say, I'm bringing this up because I am a team player, because I do care about us being successful. And because of that, I want to make sure our deadline is realistic here.

And so that's a really good strategy there when that happens. Excellent. Excellent. Well, one of the things I always ask people with the show is about your own personal productivity. Do you have any routines in your daily life that help you be more effective?

Yes, I am. Discipline is my top strength finder strength, if you're familiar with that. And the way that ends up manifesting for me is I try to eliminate so much decision fatigue from my life. And so I am one of those boring people who eats the same thing every day, because I want to remove the decision fatigue of worrying about what I have to eat.

And I have processes for things I need to do in my business. I'm always looking for ways, how do I remove little choices and decisions so that I have brainpower for all of the other things? I start all of my days the same way with a workout and that really helps just work.

wake my brain up in the morning. But yes, routine is huge for me because I forget who said it, but that idea of discipline equals freedom, for me, that's absolutely true.

I'm curious when you say there are certain things you do with your business to like, do you devote certain times each week to certain aspects of your business? Is it like time blocked that way? What's the what does that look like? Great question. So I do time block. But what I have found works for me is I do almost like themed days when I can. So I have sort of offshores.

on days and then content creation days. My on days are podcasting, speaking, meetings, clients. And then I have days where I don't have to be on camera. I don't really have to be speaking out loud and I'm heads down and creating emails or writing podcasts and things like that. So for me, I kind of think about what mode do I need to be in? And I try to

you know, thankfully I do have more control over my schedule than the average person. I try to batch those things together. It's not always possible, but it definitely helps me eliminate some of that context switching. Excellent. Excellent. And then I also ask guests, what is something you've done recently to take a day from great to awesome?

oh, what is something I've done to take a day from great to awesome? I have really been making an effort to get outside more because someone who works from home, it's very easy to just sit at your desk for eight hours a day. And finally, the weather is starting to get better. And it just, it just shifts your whole perspective. There's something just about getting outside that

And also just changing modes. Like I was saying, context switching a moment ago. Sometimes you need those breaks in the day as almost a reset moment. And I'm always telling my clients because they are people who will beat themselves up and say, oh, well, I wasted today. The day is gone. Don't get into that all or nothing thinking. Every moment, every hour is another chance to reset. And just taking that break to go outside can be that opportunity to say,

all right, now this is the second half of the day. How do I want to make this successful? Even if the first half didn't quite turn out just as I wanted it to. Absolutely. You can always seize any sort of fresh start. What are you looking forward to these days?

Oh, I am looking forward to we are actually now that the book is out, we're in the process of completely revamping a lot of my programs. And we just went through a huge rebrand. So it's been very fun and exciting to shift everything to be around this idea I was talking about before of the professional power position, kind of the

the combination of mastering yourself and also influencing others. So that's been a lot of fun. And it's also been intellectually challenging. Let's put it that way. That's so exciting. It's always good to shake things up in a, in a good way. Melody, where can people find you? You,

You can head to melodywilding.com. All the information about my books, speaking, everything's there. Awesome. Well, Melody, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for everyone for listening. If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening. And here's to making the most of our time.

Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, listeners. We know you're all about making the most of your time.

So why not turn your lunch break into a growth break with Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman. Every Tuesday, Ken sits down with top experts to explore the real questions that help you thrive at work and in life. Questions like, what are the 10 best foods for your memory? Or how can you ask for the raise you want and actually get it? If you love thoughtful advice and smart strategies, check out Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman.

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She's seen Encanto more times than she can count. And she can count to ten. She mentioned Mirabel in every conversation. But the moment she actually met Mirabel, she was speechless. That's pura magia. Find yours at Walt Disney World Resort.

Five years, ten months, and two days. That's how long it took to grow the 38 inches to ride on Cali River Rapids. But the moment the wait finally ended, that was Pura Magia. Discover it at Walt Disney World Resort. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. ♪