In Conversation: Critical Race Theory and Black Lives Matter
43:25 Share

Enjoying your podcast? We'll be brief. If you're looking for the perfect holiday gift, gift scratchers from the California Lottery. With so many to choose from, you're sure to find the right gift for anyone on your list. Now that your holiday shopping list is figured out, enjoy this bird singing jingle bells.

Give the gift of Scratchers from the California Lottery. A little play can make your day. Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

Hi everyone, this is Caleb Zakarin, one of the editors at the NewBooks Network. We've just launched discussion forums for every single episode, powered by Disqus. These forums are thoughtful, engaging spaces where you can explore ideas, ask questions, and connect with other listeners.

Thanks to Discuss, all comments will be filtered for spam and hate speech, ensuring a respectful and focused environment for serious discussions about important books. So join the conversation today at newbooksnetwork.com. We really can't wait to hear your thoughts. We think this is going to be a really amazing place for people to talk about books. Welcome to the New Books Network.

Salaam and welcome to another episode of In Conversation in association with Reorient Journal and the Critical Muslim Studies Project. In this episode, I am in conversation with Mohamed Outhal on critical race theory and the Black Lives Matter movement. Assalamualaikum, dear listeners, and welcome to another episode of Network Reorient. Today we have with us Mohamed Outhal, a student at Al-Azhar Mosque.

Uh, Mohamed, do you want to introduce yourself a bit better? Yeah, no problem. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Um, yes, my name is Mohamed Utal. Um, I'm a British law graduate and then I moved to Egypt to pursue Islamic studies where I studied Arabic and I'm memorizing Quran. Alongside this, I joined Al-Azhar's mosque, uh, Sharia program, which is like a three and a half year program, which teaches all the kind of fundamental, uh, rudimentary sciences of Islam. Alongside this, I study in Islam,

Marquez Imam Malik. Yeah, so that's my background. Okay, really interesting. So how are you finding it, Alazar? How is it? Yeah, very interesting, actually. I mean, ASHA has two routes. You have a route where you can go to university and get a degree, which is somewhat, it's more in line with like a university structure where you have modules and terms. And the ASHA mosque program is much more of a traditional way. Like you sit with teachers, you know, read books kind of cover to cover and it's a bit more of a traditional setting.

Okay, that's interesting. I'm sure some of our listeners who may be thinking of going to a lesson themselves could, if they have any questions. So what I wanted to talk to you today about is two things, but let's see if we can create a nice segue between the two of them. So my first question to you is, why should Muslims care about critical race theory?

Oh, yeah, you've thrown me right into the deep end. Oh, yeah. I feel like even before on, I feel like to understand the world we live in today, especially in the American context, but not exclusively to the American context, critical race theory is

was birthed out of the era of Jim Crow or post Jim Crow to how can we understand racism? That's what the essence is about. How do you understand racism? How do we understand how racism works in institutions and the intersectionality between racism in different various structures, for example, and different how, you know, what does it mean to

racism against black people and that specific racism against black women for example and the specific examples that exist in that how racism permeate our housing decisions we know for example in America we had redlining for example where people in in

and the result of redlining is that ghettos were created and suburbs were created. So for example, how does racism permeate the justice system? Why is it, how does race, for example, we know, how do we know, for example, black people are more likely to be stopped and searched and that's in the UK as well. How black people are more likely to go to jail. We have something in America called the school to prison pipeline. For example, it's almost like, you know, black people in schools in America, for example,

especially black and male it's almost like they're almost being geared and pushed towards going to prison for example we know a good example is the language around reporting of incidents in America how does racism permeate that so for another example would be we know that black and white people in America use marijuana about the same but however black people are overrepresented in the justice system for for

marijuana crimes we know for example when when the crack epidemic plagued the black community we know it was talking like you know the whole war on drugs and we have to get rid of these these criminals who are bringing drugs in but we know recently we have an opioid epidemic which is affecting more of white more white people this language being called like you know mental health and it's a mental health issue so again critical race theory aims to deal with

all these factors inside and how racism permits almost every institution and structure that we live in.

So now, of course, we can go from the history of how many black Muslims are in America. We know America's history is obviously born on birth racism, not birth racism, but is a racist foundation. So critical race theory is dealing with this. We know that the majority, people forget this, but the majority of people

Muslims in America are actually black people. And, you know, people ask me, oh, but are you black or are you Muslim? And I say, well, I'm a black Muslim. Well, yes, of course, it has no biological reality, me being black, but it has a definite sociological reality. When I go out into the world, like it or not, people encounter me first as a black man before as a Muslim.

So naturally I'm affected like me being a black Muslim, a black atheist, black Christian in the streets. We're seen as black people and that's our reality. So CRT, you know, to kind of shorten it, is used to how do we understand this? How can we understand it? How can we how can we approach it in a way that seeks to understand it and seeks to address it?

Naturally, some of the founders of CRT had either non-Muslims, many of them were non-Muslims, some of them were Marxist, and whatever it may be, they had different kind of epistemologies.

But the problem is now, so now, this is the issue. And I feel like every Muslim should be out there trying to fight for justice. I believe that the Quranic command for justice is an imperative that Muslims fight for justice. And CRT seeks to understand the problem. You cannot go and fight a fire blindly. But the issue we have, we have some people who, for whatever reason it may be, I mean, we can guess why, we had some Muslim thinkers who said that, come out with saying CRT is kuffa.

CRT is because of some of the founders or some of the people some of the kind of proponents of CRT and the thinkers who kind of developed the theory were even non-Muslim which I find preposterous

Okay, this was actually, I'm sorry. Yeah, you covered a lot in that. And I'm trying to keep up with my follow-up questions. So I want to take one at a time because there's quite a lot. Like I said, there's quite a lot there. And I want to unpack each one individually as far as we can, as far as time allows us. So you mentioned that when you're seen in the street,

Yeah. You're seen as a black person primarily. Yeah. And you also mentioned that there are some Muslims who basically ask you, are you black or are you Muslim? Yeah. Now I want to ask you,

Why has that occurred? Both things. Why are you first seen as black before you're seen as Muslim? Well, in both instances, actually. Why are you seen as black before you're seen as Muslim? Or even why are the identities seen as mutually exclusive in the example that you gave of Muslims saying, you know, are you black or are you Muslim? I wanted to get your thoughts as to why you think that is. Why has this occurred? Why has this happened? I mean...

The problem is definitely ignorance. Because, for example, we know historically Islam reached Africa before it reached many other places of the world, which is now majority Muslim places. So it's ignorance. But at the end of the day, it's like people have set up this dichotomy that if you're an Arab or you're from a Desi background, your Islam is just seen as a given. Of course he's a Muslim.

Whereas if you're black, it's almost that you must therefore be a convert. You must therefore not have a lineage of Muslims. And I think it's to do with ignorance because we just don't know the rich history of Islam and in Africa and how Islam wasn't even conquered. I mean, Islam did not conquer Africa by the sword.

it was literally the tribesmen and the clan men of various African tribes after through trade, through the Arab merchants came to embrace Islam at their own will. So when I have people ask me like, you know, are you black or are you Muslim? It definitely comes from a place of ignorance. And

And then now culturally, what you have now, you have that the cultural expressions of Pakistani and the cultural expressions of subcontinent and the cultural expressions of Arab are therefore sanctioned and given the green light.

by Islam that no one would ever question a thobe even though the Prophet didn't wear a thobe but we see it as Islamic garb, Islamic dress no one will question for example some people have maybe some people will but Qawwali is promoted but now what we have is that the cultural expressions of black people or African cultural expression is met with like oh this is a bit gharib, this is a bit strange and I think that's why it ultimately comes from a place of ignorance and not knowing

Okay. I would then want to suggest, why don't we know as much as, for example, I don't know, the Songhai Empire? Yeah. Or to use the other, I think there's two main...

black men that Muslims always come to is Bilal and Mansa Musa. But the thing is, when I ask people, like, so who was Mansa Musa? The only thing that they can say to me is, oh, he was the person who went on Hajj with the massive caravan. And that's about it. So I want to kind of go a bit deeper. I know. So it is ignorance. I agree with you. But then that ignorance is born out of something. Yes. Ignorance doesn't just spring out.

exactly from nowhere so i want to kind of mine that a bit deeper why do you think then that everyone knows about the abbasids everyone knows about the umayyads everyone knows about the umayyad part two in spain yeah i guess you could call it that um so why does no one look a bit uh deeper south than spain yeah and draw upon those um resources why do you think that is that's a tough question um

I feel like it's very controversial, but I feel like we have to approach and understand that within our traditional text, it's been rife with anti-Blackness. So, for example, I've always made this example, I've said it several times, I find I've read fiqh books that say Black women don't have to wear the hijab because they're undesirable in society.

Or you'll find fiqh books that write black women don't have to have a wali to get married because they're undesirable in society.

Or you have things that say, you know, you have Ibn Khaldun, who I respect a lot of his insights, says that black people are likened to animals. You know, and this is just some examples. We know the Zan rebellion against the Abbasids was a black slave rebellion against the ruling Muslims. We have Fatawa that say black men ought to be castrated.

And also that is not just, these are just few examples that exist in the context of Arab supremacy. So, for example, we know we have many Ahadith that state that, you know, the best people are Arabs. But of course, even with the, it doesn't mean that, oh, like, for example, the Khalifa ought to be from the Quraysh and all these Ahadith that speak about the virtue of the Arabs. So I feel like we come from a history of,

where we have had Arab supremacy and Arab reigning supreme and that's been, that has permeated our books. Okay. And then that obviously leads to then when people read those books, they think that actually there's nothing to be taken from these empires. Yeah. Okay. I see. Okay. Now the second thing that I want to unpack, and it may help us actually understand

expand upon the answer that you've just given as well, is you mentioned briefly that some Muslim thinkers had recently come out against CRT. That it contained elements that are against Islam or I've seen that it would damage Islamicate unity. What are your views regarding these? What would you say? So say somebody came up to you and repeated these views, what would your response to them be?

I'll just say that being nice, I would say that you just need to do your research and just do your and have a more nuanced approach. What I find amongst many of these people who claim scholarship or who belong to the so-called scholarly class, which I call the clergymen of Islam, they just don't, they just lack so much nuance.

Like, I don't understand. Do we not come from a legacy where we've taken from a tradition that has taken from different empires or different people? We've taken from the Greeks. We've taken from, you know, we've kind of incorporated. Like, I mean, I've studied Ashari Aqeeda, yeah? Ashari Aqeeda is obviously what people consider to be, well, whatever side of the spectrum you are, you consider Ashari Aqeeda to be, some people will say it's Ahlus Sunnah. Yeah.

If you look at Ahlul Sunnah, and if you look at the fiqh books, I mean the Aqidah books, sorry, on belief and establishing the hujjah, the evidences for Allah being real and Allah being in existence, it's just the arguments that existed in Aristotle's time. It's just Aristotelian logic. So my point is that we clearly have a legacy of taking things from other people. And these people were not, you know, Muslims. They did not profess Tawheed in the same way that we understand it.

So my issue is that why is it we can come from a tradition that takes things and can see it for what it is? If there's khair in it, if there's good in it, we can take it. If there's no good in it, and the things that we disagree with, we leave. But again, for me, it's very suspect. It's very suspect that people are not ignorant to the fact that we've taken from other traditions and taken from other kind of people.

But when it comes down to saying we want to understand how racism affects people, especially the people who seem to be the recipients of the harshest racism in modern day, are black people, that people come out with articles and saying that, oh my God, this is kufr. Oh my God, we can't accept this. For me, it's been very suspect. Okay, suspect in what way do you mean? It speaks to me of the anti-black sentiment.

Because what we have to understand is that, I mean, viewers will know this as well as I do, there has been a push, not even so an overt push now, to kind of say or prove or align Islam with the right of politics.

and saying, okay, Islam is somehow more aligned to the right wing of politics because Islam is more aligned to the Republican Party in the American context as opposed to the left because the left has ideas on family, Islam is against that, which again, we can go into that. So for me, when you adopt the vernacular of the right or the positions of the right that people do, naturally you're going to start criticising those who had Marxist leanings.

So then the question becomes just to like kind of interject with mine because you're firing off the old synapses in the brain. Then it doesn't become a question of, or you're taking from others or you're taking from others. It's which others are you taking from? Exactly.

And others are not created equal, as it were. I love that. I'm going to steal that. It's fine. Go for it. So just to follow up with that, actually, just to keep on that point, the taking from other traditions, you mentioned an example of that from the Asharis. Do you have any other examples of that that you could share? Because that sounded fascinating. So if you have any of the examples, that would be really good.

I'm trying to think. I mean, a lot of it's definitely in Kalam. So Kalam in general, I'm trying to think of examples, but it's definitely in Kalam at this point. So, for example, I know that even, I mean, look at Imam Ghazali. Imam Ghazali's whole thing was that, you know, refutation of the philosophers. What did he do? He studied all his refutation of philosophers is that of philosophy, sorry, is that he went out and wrote a book on philosophy first.

He studied their books and studied their works so well. And then to be able to understand it and then refute it. For example, we know the Bayt al-Hikmah. We know that you was given X amount of dirhams for learning Greek to be able to translate it into Arabic. We know in Islamic Spain, we know there was places that, we know there was actually hubs instituted by the caliphate where you had philosophers, Muslim, Jewish and Christian philosophers all working together.

These are all very real examples that history attests to. Okay. Interesting. Very interesting. Now, what I want to do is I want to kind of shift to another critique of CRT. So we've done one, which is basically this thing about, you know, CRT is against Islam. And you've kind of mentioned that, that we take the good and we leave the bad. Yeah. And that's fine. But there's another critique that I've seen that's popped up a bit more recently, actually, which

And it's to do with the fact that people or certain Muslim scholars, personalities, activists, whatever you want to call them, are saying that there is no such thing as race in Islam. And so Islam and Muslims are, oh, I guess my question to you then is, can or I guess is Islam and or Muslims blind to race?

Of course not. Of course not. I mean, the thing is, I think the thing is, before even going to the Islam or talking about Islam and its relationship with race and racism, you have to understand that race is a, racism is a human problem, regardless of faith. It's a human problem. And this idea of, and I feel like people, it sounds nice, doesn't it? That Islam is, you know, people will say things like, Islam eradicated racism 1400 years ago.

And then I said, no, I said, no, Islam commanded us to eradicate racism 1400 years ago. But racism is very much well alive in Muslim majority countries. I live in Egypt, which is not, I live in Egypt and I've lived in the Middle East. And many people live in the Middle East can attest to this, that the word Abid, which comes from Abd, refers to black people.

And people don't even see it as derogatory. That's how deeply ingrained it is. So, I mean, for me, I don't think you can... People say that, oh, people would like to use Malcolm X's and say, oh, but you know, he... Malcolm X did rightly say that Islam is the only religion that can kind of...

That can kind of eradicate the racism problem. And I understand that. I see that. It's like, juxtaposed to that, James Baldwin says that, you know, he can't trust the Christian church because the most segregated hour in American life is high noon on Sunday because you have a black church and a white church. So, you know, I kind of understand. But I said, boy,

there was divine wisdom Malcolm X being taken in the time he was because if he was to stick around any longer and see the racism that actually exists against black people in Muslim majority countries, God knows, only God knows what position he would have taken.

It would have been interesting actually. I always wonder what would have happened if like Malcolm X had actually lived to the fullest extent of his life to you know... I mean he went on time, Hajj, everyone's together and even in Hajj you have a classist kind of movement. Classism is rife in Hajj, rich people, poor people, the Africans, everyone's segregated but again during the prayer, during Arafat, everyone's together.

But Malcolm X was when he's traveling around the Muslim world and traveling around Muslim-adopted countries, what he is going as someone who's a VIP as you know, he's very important. He's being received by heads of state. That's different to him being a regular black person in these countries. Okay, so you would actually suggest that his experience of Hajj wasn't of a normal black person? Most definitely.

Most definitely. He met King Faisal. King Faisal received him. He was very much... I think he performed Hajj twice, actually, if I remember correctly. And both times he was received as someone of great esteem. So I know people who I know...

the people who I haven't formed had myself but from stories I've heard from my parents who have been my father's going to be 81 now and people older than me have said yeah the people look at you funny they might even you're not treated the same way certain people have better tents certain people are given priority in different kind of hotels today and this kind of thing

Okay, that's interesting. It would have been interesting to see how Malcolm X would have responded to that had he lived. But one thing that I want to, now I want to kind of follow up on something else you said that we kind of left dangling. You mentioned that there's a certain push towards making Islam align more with the values of the right wing in the West.

as opposed to the left. Yeah. And I know you were very heavily involved in the debate that took place, mainly over blogs, over social media recently with the CRT stuff. Yeah. And I want to kind of get your opinion on how far do you think that debate...

was a reflection of the current culture wars of the West seeping into the Islamic age? 100%. I mean, the fact of the matter is, for me, it speaks to the growing disconnect between the scholarly class and young people, first and foremost. And also as well, what you find by scholarly class, I mean, those who...

I usually use the term neo-traditionalist, but I've been told recently that maybe it's that these people who I call neo-traditionalists do not have a monopoly on traditionalism. Yes. Yes, which is true. Which is true. So for want of a better term, I'm going to use the same term again, but I hope the listeners will understand where I'm coming from. I'm talking about a specific subset of people who lay claim to traditionalism.

I feel like it speaks to a growing disconnect between that camp and young people and then that camp and even the academic scene. Because undoubtedly, whether we like it or not, young people, the cultural war has been won by the left, Muslim or non-Muslim. Young Muslims find themselves more aligned to the values of the left. Is that necessarily a good or a bad thing? What do you think? Because I wouldn't...

I wouldn't think that the left has won the culture war outside of Islam or the Muslims. I would think the right is very much on the rise. Outside of, like, now we're talking just about in the West, generally, I've struggled to see any, like, concerted unified effort from the left that kind of matches the right, for example. So would you say then that the Muslim youth is kind of like a...

push back against that or do you think that there's more of a split evenly within the Muslim youth themselves? I mean again this is from me speaking from my perspective so I can't speak for everybody but from what I see and people I interact with I feel like young Muslims have been young Muslims are definitely more aligned to

to the values of the left and they're trying to push and then they recognize it as well so because when when you kind of adopt the language of the left as it were you start recognizing those who are on the right even more so and then when you see the scholars now islamic scholars who again lay claim to traditionalism you find that they have also adopted that vernacular as well and then you know that's when you have those debates and pushbacks and people going back and forth

Okay. Now I want to kind of segue into something else. We've been mentioning the right and left wing, and I want to kind of take us in a slightly different direction to something that's a bit more...

more topical now, I guess. And that's the recent protests around the killing of George Floyd around the world, not just in the US, UK, but protests everywhere. And again, we've had a contingent of scholars

saying that Muslims should not be taking part in protests, especially Black Lives Matter protests, because Black Lives Matter advocate for certain non-Islamic or what they see as certain non-Islamic positions. What would be your response to this? Because now this is, I see this as different to before, because here it's not just,

If there can be a split between theory and practice, of course. It's not just taking the good and leaving the bad. You're actually creating a political platform with these people. So what would be your response? First and foremost, I think it's very important. And I feel like, again, it's just that we just have so our our religious leadership is so unimaginative.

And so for me, it's one of these things where I can, as a young person, and many do, many Muslims do, can separate Black Lives Matter as a slogan from a movement. And I feel the vast majority of people who are involved in the protests associate what's happening more so with the actual protests

slogan as opposed to the movement now onto your specific question of getting involved in the movement again it's like where the question is before we even speak about black lives matter movements more specifically we're talking about can we work with people to achieve a goal i mean first and foremost we say achieving justice and fighting for justice is an islamic imperative yes we can all agree on that

Now, can we work... The question is, can we work with people who...

are in line with our call for justice and have a great platform and who are pushing a movement that we all support, can we work with people who do that while simultaneously advocate for things that are seen as deemed as non-Islamic or haram in our Sharia? That's the question now.

For me personally, for my reading, I believe absolutely you can. And I feel like it doesn't... Again, but again, I'm different. I don't feel compromised at all. I don't feel compromised in supporting BLM, the slogan, of course, and the movement. And the places where I feel like I disagree with them on, I can make that known. I can be vocalised on that. Okay. Yeah.

Sorry, go on. No, no, that's just my stance. Okay, that's fine. You've mentioned the Black Lives Matter slogan and separating that from the movement. Yeah. But I don't think it's as simple as that. Simply because if you have Black Lives Matter, the slogan, at the end of the day, that's just a slogan. What's the substance behind it?

Yeah, but I do feel like... Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I totally agree with you. But I feel like the movement in and of itself is obviously more specific to the American context. So when I say... We have a wing in the UK which is very small compared to the American movement, for example. Even the proponents of Black Lives Matter, you only hear the people and characters from the American context as opposed to the UK context.

So when I'm saying Black Lives Matter in the UK context, I'm using that just as a catalyst to address systemic racism, for example. As opposed to me saying I'm a member of this movement, I'm a member of this party. And I think we should just keep it very real and very 100. The main reason why people have, Muslims have an issue with it is because of their views on LGBTQ.

Yeah. And I find it very, I mean, let's just be honest. And I find it very strange that because of, so again, first of all, Black Lives Matter doesn't even make, it doesn't even make their, their main call isn't for the LGBTQ community anyway.

So for example, this certain issue, people are going to raise that, oh, but it's funded by Jules Soros. People are going to mention that. People are going to say that it's stance on family, which I find we can go into that as well. I find it very, Muslim stance on family. I've had Muslims say to me, but BLM supports the destruction of the nuclear family. I'm like, we come from a religion that has polygamy.

I find it very strange. I can't lie. I did find that very strange. I'm thinking the nuclear family is part and parcel of the American dream. It has nothing to do with Islam.

Wow, okay, we forget about that when it's convenient. Exactly. Again, we can go into so much, we can unpack on that. I mean, we come from a tradition that has allowed concubinage. Is that a nuclear family? So to say that all of a sudden that BLM was destroyed a nuclear family and therefore anti-Islamic, I really can't wrap my head around those things.

But yeah, so I said, so the people have issue with BLM because apparently the funding is questionable, which probably is. The nuclear family idea and the LGBTQ idea

All these three things are not what they stand for primarily. So I said that, you know, for me, my question is this. Can I work with people who their primary focus is establishing justice and seeking to address society's ills? I think 100% I can and I will.

And the places that I feel compromised, I don't feel compromised anyway, but places I feel uncomfortable in or things that I cannot support in, then yes, then fine. Then fine, I'll make that known. But again, it's like, I want to understand what is, I still don't have an answer to his question. Maybe you, from your reading, you can tell me and the listeners. What is the massive fear? So why do people fear the LGBTQ movement so much?

I just want to understand because do we not come from a tradition where homosexuality was the norm? Not the norm, sorry, let me retract that. Where homosexuality was rife in our Muslim majority societies. It was like, it was the only difference is from now and obviously post-modernism is that it's become an identity and historically it wasn't an identity. That one you'd know more than me given your training but I think

I can't really speak to the fear, to be honest. But what I do want to do is, while it's still fresh in my head, because again, the synapses are firing and I want to kind of ask questions before I lose my thread, is what would you say to people who then turn around and say to you, so if you say Black Lives Matter, yeah? Yeah.

What would you say to those who basically retort, all lives matter? You knew this one was coming. Yeah, of course. You probably knew this one was coming. So there you go. I've said it several times at a protest that I've been to. I said that all lives will never matter until black lives matter. And what I'm trying to say to that is that, again, people don't even know...

where these statements are coming from all these statements do not exist in a vacuum and they don't come out there are responses to things that are happening black lives matter was a response to the uh most recent um caught on camera uh acts of police brutality and police acting with impunity against black bodies that's where that slogan was was born out of

Now, right wing tropes and the slogan All Lives Matter was a response to that. And people don't understand, it's so insidious that it's trying to say that

okay you lot are declaring your humanity but however we all are just human and what that seeks to derail the conversation that seeks to kind of like undermine the call for black lives matter and replace it all lives matter and it's very it's very insidious because what all it is it appeals to everybody doesn't it like of course me as a person i believe all lives matter of course i do

I believe that, I believe in equality. Of course I do. But, but I have a question mark. Why, why was it, why is all lives matter being, uh, a call as a response to black lives matter? That's a, that's a, that's a questionable act. Why were you not saying all lives matter beforehand? Why is it when black people have decided to declare that their humanity must be recognized by any means necessary that now we have, that now we say all lives matter? Where was that call before? Hmm.

Yeah, it's just sprung up as soon as Black Lives Matter sprung up. Exactly. We started hearing All Lives Matter and it's almost... The timing is very suspect, to use your wording. But okay. Now, like I did with the CRT stuff, there's one...

particular criticism of the protests and what's been going on at the protests that I really wanted to get your opinion on because it's obviously right now it's a very hot topic what with the Cecil Rhodes statue from the Gown in Oxford the Coolstone one in Bristol that got taken back up and the Churchill one being unveiled again for Macron's visit I want to ask you what do you think about the position that certain

Muslim activist personalities have had that shouldn't topple these statues because in the Quran it says we shouldn't abuse idols due to the danger of God being abused in retaliation. What do you think about this position that then the Prophet wouldn't want us to get rid of these statues because it would increase the danger of God being abused? I think there's two immediate responses that come to mind.

Firstly being, are people unaware of what the Prophet did when he went to Mecca? Are they unaware that he destroyed the idols of the false gods? That's the first thing. And the second thing, okay, now addressing the Quranic command, these people, these statues are not idols. They're not different gods. I agree with that. I do agree. We should not destroy the artifacts of other religions.

I agree with you, they're not gods, but they are figures that are dear to...

the people who are in those areas. So, for example, the Churchill one obviously would be the dearest, I would say, out of the three dimensions. And even the Colston one, I saw an interview with some Bristol residents who said actually that statue was put up there for his philanthropy and the fact that he was, like, you know, to Bristol, in Bristol he was known as a good person and not because of his, we're honouring one part of him, not the other part.

Yeah, I think Churchill, for me personally, definitely needs a more nuanced approach. I don't even have a position where I stand on Churchill being taken down or not personally. But as for...

again it's like for now where do we draw the arbitrary lines but addressing those things i know these people are revered people but they're not worshipped that's my first thing i feel like when it comes to people who are things that are worshipped and seen dearly in terms of religious context that i feel like yes that has a that's what that quranic injunction is speaking to but as for like statues now i said again they're not for what statues for worship are different to statues where we celebrate people

I find it very problematic that we erect people who, for example, Colston is a very clear example. For example, Churchill is, again, we need a more nuanced approach. I mean, someone said to me, what do I recommend? And I was like, I'm not really sure. But someone said to me, maybe you could have put it like a democratic vote, for example.

But whatever it may be, Churchill's one example, but as someone like Colston, like, okay, he might have fed some people and he might have done some great work, but we cannot deny that his company was responsible for 84,000 people making a trip over the Atlantic.

We can't deny the fact that his company was branded with hot iron. His logo was branded onto black bodies as they arrived at the port. We cannot deny the fact that anywhere between the number of 8,000 to 12,000 men, women and children lost their lives on these voyages.

So again, I'm not saying destroy them, but put them in a museum. But I do not feel like it's appropriate that we celebrate these people. Because statues are not about... You know people are just retort of, but you're erasing history. No, you're not. History is in the museum. We teach history. When you erect a memorial or a statue of somebody, it's a celebration of that person. And I feel it's very inappropriate to celebrate these people. Okay. Yeah.

Would you say then, you mentioned about we teach history, and actually I would argue that we don't, especially in the UK, we don't teach about colonial history. So what would be your view on that? Would you want to see that?

Of course. I mean, that's actually something I'm working towards now. I'm trying to make a push towards policy in regards to the curriculum in this country. Because even the history, it's funny because it's very easy to exist in bubbles. As much as I see people out there who are unaware of the history of the painful legacy of colonialism and Britain's role in slavery, I live in a bubble as well where I feel like everyone knows this stuff.

But they don't. And the responses that you saw, people were like, people weren't even aware of Churchill's comments, for example. And I got into some stick when I called Churchill a genocidal maniac. People were shocked. Like, what? Where's your proof? And the one that shocks everybody is Gandhi. I said Gandhi was a racist.

Yeah. And people get shocked at these things. Oh, my God. And, you know, people don't even know the extent of what Gandhi says. And, you know, just for a side point, Gandhi used the word kafir to refer to black people in South Africa. You know, people aren't even aware of these things. So you're right. I do actually concur with that, is that we have to teach history. And I know you're very much involved in decolonialism. And I feel like you have to decolonialize the curriculum.

Yeah. You have to decolonize the history by incorporating colonialism into it. Yeah. And teaching it, yeah, so you know what's happened. Yeah. Okay then, Momo, thank you very much for that. It's been a really interesting discussion. Thank you. And inshallah, we'll continue it one day, inshallah. Inshallah. Thank you very much. Brilliant. Shall I kick finish? This has been another episode of In Conversation, brought to you by Network Reorient, the podcast arm of the Christian Muslim Studies Project.

Thank you for listening. We have now reached the end of Season 2. Inshallah, Season 3 will begin on Friday the 31st of July. Please have a listen to some of our other episodes and leave a rating.