Catherine Howard | Secret Lives of the Six Wives
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Hello, my lovely Bertwicksters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome to Bertwickster Sheets. I'm thrilled that you have managed to drop by once again. And if this is your first time listening, well, extra special welcome. We will budge up and make some room for you. But before we can continue with the podcast, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adult things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I feel safer. Right, let's crack on.

Being a Tudor queen was very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well, then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how harebrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan.

The women in Henry VIII's life were smart. She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it. Powerful. She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy. And rebellious. She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.

But they could also be naive. She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips up. And downright unlucky. I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.

Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates: divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband, a fat ginger serial killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this mini-series as we explore the secret lives of the six wives.

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister.

after that little smidge of a hiccup, that little blip that was the marriage to Anne of Cleves, and honestly, props to that woman for getting a sweet deal out of it, but Henry is once again on the lookout for a wife. Oh, God. And poor Catherine Howard was next. She was a teenager, a mere slip of a girl when she became queen, and wow, talk about being thrown into the deep end. Pop,

Possibly the most scandalous of the six wives, yes, I am looking at you, Anne Boleyn, Catherine's short life and marriage was filled with sex scandal and, well, tragedy. Who was Catherine Howard? How

How on earth did she find herself suddenly married to Henry? What had happened in her short 17 years that had come back to haunt her? And how did this tragic story unravel for her? Honestly, I've got a real soft spot for Catherine. I really do. In this fifth and penultimate episode of our miniseries, Secret Lives of Six Wives, I am joined once again by the wonderful author and Tudor expert, Dr. Nicola Tallis, to help us get to know this young woman a little bit better.

Without further ado, let's crack on. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Nicola Tallis. How are you doing? I'm really good, Kate. Glad to be back with you again. I'm thoroughly enjoying this miniseries on the wives of Henry VIII. Yeah, me too. It's been really fun sort of, you know, getting rid of a few myths and shedding some different light on these women. The things that I've learned from you so far

Catherine of Aragon, stoic in defeat, a bit quite scrappy, more scrappy than I thought that she was. She was not going down with the fight, that one. Anne Boleyn, religious reformer. She was into that and very, very intellectual. But all the things that Henry fancied about her suddenly became a problem when she was a wife. I thought that was really interesting. Oh, Jane Seymour. Oh, poor old Jane. But

as you pointed out, bit of a player as well. Like she was in the game. She wasn't some sort of simpering victim of all of this. She kind of knew what she was doing. It's just unfortunate she died in childbirth. Anna Cleaves played a blinder. We learned that last time. Well done. Came from not obscurity, but low inability in Germany to be the queen for six months and then quite happily went, yeah, all right, I'll be the king's quote unquote sister forever.

and go and sit in this castle with loads of jewels. Is that a good summary so far? I think that's an excellent summary. Yeah. Because today we've got to look at, I'll tell you she's one of my favourite, but she's, I think she's the one that I find most intriguing, Catherine Howard and what happened to her. So to set the stage for,

Henry VIII is married briefly to Anne of Cleves and he's bitching and whinging that she's not good looking, she smells horrible, don't fancy her. It's giving proper teenage passive aggressive, I don't want to do it, energy about the whole thing until eventually it's annulled. But he's already got his eye on Catherine Howard at this point. So can you tell me who Catherine Howard is and how she even ended up in the eye of the king?

Yeah, so Catherine Howard is actually a cousin of Anne Boleyn. First red flag. Yeah, I know, right? And she actually comes from one of the most prominent families in England, the Howard family, because she is also the niece of the Duke of Norfolk, who is...

the premier peer at Henry's court. And she's really catapulted into the spotlight when probably through the auspices of the Duke of Norfolk, she is appointed to the household of Anne of Cleves. So she comes to court where she catches Henry's eye while she is serving his fourth queen and

and it all goes from there. And she was very young, wasn't she? She was a teenager. Yeah, yeah. So we don't know for sure exactly when Catherine was born, but yeah, she probably was a teenager, probably about 17 years old at this time. And it's a huge change of circumstance for her because even though she does come from this important family, she has been raised by parents

her step-grandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, away from the court in a household full of other young girls. So yeah, suddenly she's given this important position of lady-in-waiting to Anne of Cleves and is suddenly surrounded by all of the glitz and glamour of Henry VIII's court. And when do we know that Henry started making moves on Catherine?

Well, definitely we know that he is interested in her by June 1540, so a month before the annulment of his marriage to Anne of Cleves. By that point, Catherine and the King's notice of Catherine has started to draw comment from people at court who've started noticing that he is very attracted to this

much younger, very pretty young woman. And she in turn seems to have fully encouraged his attention. What do we know about Catherine? What was she like as a person? I mean, what are any of us like at 17? We're idiots. But do we have any idea of what she was like? Well, apparently quite promiscuous. Yeah, I know.

But again, this whole idea of her marrying Henry VIII would have been something that she would never have dreamed of as a young girl. So as I mentioned, she goes to live in the household of the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk to be educated. But...

The Duchess was pretty lax as a guardian, didn't really keep a close eye on Catherine, who was just one of many girls there. And we know that when Catherine was very young, she became engaged in this

Kind of flirtation with her music master, a guy called Henry Mannix. And the Dowager Duchess actually catches Catherine with Mannix and boxes his ears, so we're told.

And that's not a great start. But then there's another gentleman in the household called Francis Dearham, who seems to have formed an attachment to Catherine. And before long, that relationship seems to have been a fully blown sexual relationship. So...

From an early age, from her early teens, Catherine is very much exposed to this highly sexualized world. Okay, so why is this a problem then? I mean, all right, so she's sowing her wild oats.

She's a youngster. She doesn't know the king. She never met the king. No one said to her at any point, you're going to be married to the king. She has no reason at all to not do these things if she were to, apart from the societal expectation of the day. But it's not like she's betrothed to him. So what...

Is the issue here? Well, the issue is that by the time Catherine comes to Henry VIII's notice, none of her sexual past is disclosed to Henry. So as far as he is concerned, and in fact, as far as most of her family are concerned, Catherine is a virgin. And let's not forget that at this time, the most valuable asset that a woman could possess was

was her virginity and the idea that she was coming to a marriage completely untouched, completely pure. So that isn't the case for Catherine, but Henry doesn't know that at this time. Do you think anyone would have asked her? Like in the courtship process, when it was kind of looking more likely that Henry was going to ask this girl to marry him, that somebody would have said to her at some point,

What's your sexual history here, love? No, not really. I think so. The Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, she obviously knows things that have gone on in Catherine's past, but she never discloses that either. But no, I don't think it ever occurred to anybody to say, I mean, she's young at this point.

There isn't any hint of scandal attached to her at this point. Like, why would that be a thing that you would even ask? What makes it even sadder is looking at it through modern eyes, like these past...

like they sound quite abusive. Like the thing with Maddox, who was a music teacher, like she was only like 12. Today we would say that that was quite clearly abuse. That's child abuse. Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. When you view it from a 21st century perspective, it's pretty horrific. And the fact that Catherine didn't really have anyone who was looking out for her at this point and who was, you know,

taking an interest in her welfare. It's quite sad. She was largely alone and it must have left her incredibly confused, not knowing who she could turn to or not feeling she had anyone to turn to and nobody to guide her.

It's such a mess already. So how does it go from Henry VIII fancying somebody, which he does all the time, and having mistresses, to actually, this is wife material? That's an interesting transition. Why didn't he just keep her as a mistress? Well, that's a good question. But I think, really, he wants to free himself from Anne of Cleves. Of course, he doesn't like Anne of Cleves at all. And...

Henry needs more male children. Oh, we're back to this again. Yeah. We're back to this. This is a really pressing point in Henry's life is this production of having sons. And he's made it clear that his marriage with Anna Cleaves hasn't been consummated. There's no chance of him having any sons with her, but he does feel that he can get it up with someone else. And he's

have sons with someone else. And so Catherine seems like the ideal candidate because Henry's physically attracted to her and he needs sons. She's young enough to produce them. And so it seems like a very obvious choice when he's made that decision to free himself from Anne of Cleves. He needs to make sure that there's someone waiting, someone in the wings with whom he can start trying for boys again.

I'll be back with Catherine and Nicola after this short break.

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I wonder if the people around him thought this was a good idea. Or if they looked at the 17-year-old Catherine Howard and just thought, maybe not. Well, Catherine's uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, definitely thinks it's a really, really good idea. Of course he does. He's definitely, I mean, he hasn't learned anything from his first niece, Anne Boleyn, losing her head, clearly, because he very much pushes Catherine in Henry's direction and, you know,

You know, he's instructing her and telling her what she needs to do, that she needs to restore the pride of their family. So there's a lot of pressure on Catherine as well. But yeah, she is very, very young. There is a huge age difference between them. And that whole idea for Catherine of marrying Henry can't have been very enticing for her. Not really. And she's good looking, isn't she? She's a pretty thing.

Yeah, yeah. So what's quite unusual, I guess, is that we don't actually have any authenticated portraits of Catherine. We have, I know, so we have images of her or images that we think are her. But other than that, we're just reliant on descriptions of her. And yes, she is believed to be pretty, well-formed, beautiful.

Quite short, apparently, as well. But certainly she has these characteristics that physically really, really appeal to Henry. Okay. So he's got the hots for her. The marriage is set up.

Was it a happy marriage before it wasn't? Did he manage to consummate this wedding or was he running around whinging again? No, he does consummate this marriage. Poor Catherine. Poor Catherine. And I think...

Despite the fact that physically, by this point, Henry is much older than Catherine, you know, his health is physically in decline. He's got this ulcer, which makes him bad tempered, which smells and which, you know, isn't particularly nice for Catherine. She does a really good job of hiding any distaste, you know,

She puts a brave front on it. And I think that the reason for this is that she really liked the idea of being queen and she enjoyed the practical side of being queen and the visual side of being queen and the attention because she hadn't had much attention while she was growing up.

And suddenly she is Queen of England. She's able to dance morning, noon and night if she wants to. She's being given the best food, the best wine, all of these beautiful clothes, all of these magnificent jewels. So all of these trappings of luxury. And I think that that makes Catherine very much prepared to put our brave face on it and say,

smile when perhaps she might not otherwise have done. Did she ever get pregnant?

Possibly. There is a suggestion that she may have been pregnant and that she might have had a miscarriage. We don't know for sure. There's certainly some hint that Catherine herself may have believed herself to be pregnant. But yeah, if that is the case, nothing ever came of it. So this could have continued of her just pretending that she's enamoured of the king and enjoying the

being queen and just being, you know, just sort of having a bit of fun. And Henry was clearly, he seems to have really liked her as well. He doesn't seem to have taken against her, does he? No, he absolutely adored her. He showered her with presents. He gave her pretty much free reign. And although he wasn't able to dance anymore and partake in all the entertainments at court,

He really enjoyed watching Catherine do that. And he loves basically having this younger woman on his arm that he could show off. She was pretty much like a prize trophy wife. So how does it go wrong then? Because this could have continued. This could have been it. This could have been the one. Got his little arm candy. But what goes wrong?

Well, what goes wrong is that in 1541, Catherine and Henry go on this progress up north. And whilst Catherine and Henry are away, back in London, news comes to light of her conduct before her marriage. And

This is revealed to Henry when he returns back to London. Where does it come from? Who's saying what? Who grasped? Yeah, so it's actually a woman who had been part of the household of Catherine's grandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, and had shared a room with Catherine at one point. And she comes along and says, basically, I'm

really troubled by this I'm really troubled by this knowledge and now I feel that it's the right time for me to share this did you know that actually Catherine Howard she had a full-blown sexual relationship with this guy Francis Dearham who oh yes I've just noticed Francis Dearham is now serving in Catherine's household as queen he's now her secretary and yeah this has happened

That comes to light. Francis Durham had basically blackmailed Catherine as well after she became queen to become a member of her household. You know, he said he would keep quiet as long as he was paid for it. And that panicked Catherine. So, yes, so this knowledge all comes to light that Catherine hasn't quite been as pure and chaste as she said she has before her marriage.

And with that, the news of the affair with the music teacher also comes up. But then there's further scandal because it emerges that after her marriage to Henry VIII, Catherine has also become embroiled in some kind of affair with one of Henry's closest and most favourite gentlemen, Thomas Culpepper. Shit.

Yeah. Who blabbed? Why would you feel the need to just shut up and the whole course of English history would have been completely different? Why would somebody feel the need to reveal this information? Like you had your chance. Shut up. I feel very angry that this person did that. I don't know why. Yeah, but it's jealousy. They've seen how Catherine's gone on to do quite well for herself and

And they want a slice of the action. Of course it is. Yeah. It's pulling people down, isn't it? Right. Okay. So the shit's hit the fan. So who's investigating what? And presumably when this first comes to light, Catherine and Henry have no idea about this. So who is behind the scenes investigating?

So the chief investigator at this point is Thomas Cranmer, who is Henry's Archbishop of Canterbury. So it's him who is told of Catherine's misconduct before her marriage. And it's he who looks into what's going on. And Henry gives him permission to have a chat with Catherine to try and find out what's going on. And to begin with, Catherine is...

very reluctant to say anything, of course, why would you be? But gradually, more and more comes to light. More people who were in Catherine's household during her childhood, during her teenage years, are questioned. More and more of the story starts to unfold. And then eventually, it is Catherine herself who really puts her foot in it by mentioning Thomas Culpepper.

Why did she do that? Why did she offer that piece of information up? I think it was just a moment of naivety and pure kind of panic at her situation where...

She becomes so overwhelmed with what's going on and she can't really keep track of what she said at various points. So Cramer is questioning her. She is under this intense scrutiny. She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life before she has become queen. And I think she just slips up. And what does she say about him?

She mentions that Culpeper has shown an interest in her. She also mentions that she has been engaging in these meetings with Culpeper, although says that they haven't gone any further than words.

Anne also mentions the fact that Anne Boleyn's former sister-in-law, Lady Rochford, has been aiding and abetting these meetings. So Lady Rochford is a member of Catherine's household. She's serving her as a lady in waiting. And Lady Rochford has also been arranging for Catherine to meet with Thomas Culpepper secretly. And when Catherine and Henry were on this progress tour,

in the North in 1541, Lady Rochford was sent ahead, apparently, by Catherine to all of the various places they were staying to try and work out where the best places for Catherine and Culpeper to meet would be. And in one occasion, they even meet in a toilet. Who does that? Oh, no one who's not misbehaving, that's for sure. No. Do you think that they were having sex or do you think they were just meeting in a toilet for a chat?

I don't think that they were having sex. I don't think it went as far as that. It's gone far enough though, hasn't it? Yeah. I mean, the fact that you're actually meeting another man when you're Queen of England, you're married and that there's no one else in the room at the time is a bit suspicious. Yeah.

I think that there were possibly intentions to have sex there, most definitely. And, you know, Catherine even wrote Thomas Culpepper this letter that still survives in which she signs herself yours as long as life endures. So there's clearly this emotional attachment between them there as well. Definitely. I'll be back with Catherine and Nicola after this short break.

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Do you think she'd have got away with it if it was just the fact that she wasn't a virgin when she married Henry? Do you think that they'd have still taken her head for that? I mean, it sounds like the Thomas Culpepper thing, which I think is a bit harsh because she's flirting with him, basically. This is kind of like an emotional affair. But do you think she would have got away with it were it not for the Culpepper stuff?

Possibly, I think that Catherine wasn't smart enough to recognise... Maybe not smart enough is a bit cruel and a bit unfair, but... She's very young. She's too naive. Naive. That's the best way of describing it. Yeah, I think she was too naive to recognise that actually if she had...

to Henry all of this stuff that had gone on prior to their marriage, then she probably could have saved her life because it wasn't illegal to do any of that. And her marriage to Henry would have just been able to have been annulled perhaps because she'd had these relationships with men prior. But I think Catherine was so panicked and distressed. She didn't have anyone to advise her. Unfortunately, everything...

everything came tumbling out. Everything got beyond her control and she just couldn't get a grip on what she was saying and what she was telling to who at any given time. So how did Henry react to this then? And whose job was it to actually sit him down and go, oh, we've got some news for you? Yeah, I mean, that was left to poor Thomas Cranmer. And it's

He was so worried about doing it face to face that he wrote the news of Catherine's misconduct in a note that he left in the chapel for Henry to find. God. I mean, yeah, poor Henry. I have to say poor Henry by this point because he was genuinely really besotted by Catherine. So I feel sorry for him from that perspective because he really loved her.

Everything before and after that, no, absolutely. He's got no sympathy. But he was totally heartbroken because he really genuinely believed that

Catherine was his rose without a thorn. He really thought that she was the wife who wasn't going to let him down, who would comfort him in his old age, who he also really fancied. So he was devastated and he refused to see Catherine, which really distressed her. But he, I think that this was a tactic because Catherine,

Henry knew that if he saw Catherine and gave her an opportunity to try and explain face to face, probably his attitude towards her would soften. And I think he was too worried by that. He knew that she still had this really strong physical and emotional pull on him. The news has been broken. It's all gone tits up. Where is Catherine at this point? Is she in the tower yet? No, she's not in the tower. So to begin with, she was kept in her rooms at Hampton Court.

And then she was taken to Scion House or Scion Abbey, as it was then, on what was then the outskirts of London. And there she was kept whilst investigations were carried out, whilst Cranmer continued to dig into her life.

And it's only in February 1542 that she is taken to the Tower of London. And by that point, I think she pretty much knew what was coming. Oh, did she have a trial? Was there a trial? No, she didn't have a trial. There was no chance. Yeah, exactly. No chance to publicly defend herself. And what could she say in any case by that point? She'd

All of the details of her life before Henry and post Henry with Thomas Culpepper had already come spilling out. So, no, she wasn't given a trial. By this point also, Culpepper and Dearham had both been executed as traitors.

So it's not looking great for Catherine. Were they tortured as well into confessing? There's some suggestion that that may have happened in Francis Dearham's case, not Culpeper's, but yeah, possibly with Dearham that that may have happened. Yeah. So she's in the tower when they get executed, right?

I can't even imagine what this, what kid is going through at this point. But when she told when her execution will be, does somebody just come and just say, we found you guilty? That's pretty much what happens. Yeah. Is that she's told she's got to prepare herself for her execution. And she,

Catherine, at that point, seems to compose herself. She's been really distressed, really upset up until this point and has really struggled to hold it together. But at this point, when she realises that she probably is going to die, she asks for the block to be brought to her rooms so that she can prepare for her execution in private and prepare to make a good end. So Catherine

I mean, that's just... How do you get to that point where you realise that you're probably still a teenager...

and you're going to die by having your head chopped off. It says something about her strength of character at this point, I suppose, that she decided that if she was going to die, she wanted to make a good end. And did she? What was her execution like? We know that Anne Boleyn, as a favour to her, Henry hired a French executioner with a sword, but no such luck this time. No, none of that for Catherine. She instead is...

executed with an axe. And like Anne Boleyn, she's executed in the same spot as Anne Boleyn. So she's granted the relative favour of a private execution within the confines of the Tower of London. So the London crowds aren't there to jeer at her, but there are probably a huge number of other people who have been part of Henry's court who come along to watch her die.

We are told that she does make a good end. She doesn't say very much. She looks quite weak at this point, and who can blame her? But she does make a relatively good end, a brave end. Was it Lady Rochester was executed immediately afterwards? Lady Rochford, yeah, that's right, Lady Rochford. So she had been the one who had been aiding and helping Catherine recover.

with her meetings with Thomas Culpepper. So she is executed immediately after Catherine. Could you even imagine? I mean, the whole thing is so grim, but like watching your mate have their head cut off and waiting...

for your turn. It's so barbaric. It's terrible, but it's a weird one because Lady Rochford's motivations for getting herself involved in the first place are really questionable. Yeah, what on earth was she doing? It's weird, isn't it? She's seen her sister-in-law Anne Boleyn and her own husband executed. Why would you...

partake in that. It's really weird. I don't know. And what happens to Catherine's body? Was she buried somewhere nice or just, you know, chucked in the bin? Well, she's buried near to her cousin Anne Boleyn in the Chapel of St. Peter at Vincula in the Tower of London. So as was Lady Rochford. So they're both there to this day. Two queens buried near

two dukes in the chapel there. And how did Henry react to this? I

on the day that she, I'm going to assume that he wasn't there for the execution. No, he wasn't there for the execution. We don't really know a great deal about how he reacts. I think he is greatly saddened by the whole affair and how things have transpired and finds himself really depressed by the loss of his fifth wife, having shown her so much love and adoration. I think he finds this

quite a blow. And Catherine's one of the wives that her ghost is said to haunt certain places, isn't it? Yeah, so there is a story that her ghost haunts the so-called haunted gallery at Hampton Court. And the story goes that when the news of Catherine's infidelity all came to light at Hampton Court, that Catherine was desperate to reach Henry and so ran down this gallery in an attempt

to find him. And she nearly succeeded before Henry's guards dragged her back, kicking and screaming. And it's these screams that can reportedly been heard. I have to say, unfortunately, that is definitely a myth. We know that that didn't happen, but she does reportedly haunt the haunted gallery and also the tower. So these two places that are so important

associated with her fall and her end, Catherine's spirit supposedly returns to this day to remind us of those times in her life. A final question, and it's a bit of a tricky one because we're looking at it from a modern perspective, but do you think that what happened to her was fair? Do you think she was guilty as charged? I'm going to say

say no because she was just a poor naive girl I think that if any of Henry's wives are deserving of sympathy and we should be saying oh poor so and so I really think it's Catherine because she was so young and she was thrust into the spotlight in circumstances that she probably didn't really want to be thrown into I mean

Yeah, I think that she was given a really, really tough time and there was a lot of pressure and expectations set upon her. And I think that when you're that young, when you haven't really had anyone to guide you, you're going to make mistakes. And you didn't know you were going to be queen. That was never part of the deal. That was never part of the deal. So I think that unfortunately, Catherine was a victim and it's...

It's just sad that she had to pay the price with her head. I do feel very sorry for Catherine. I really do. I think that she was stitched up and the fact that she wasn't given a trial and there was no one there to defend her. And she was quite clearly just a kid that was terrified and very confused and probably looked at his other wives and thought, well, they just did what he wanted. So if I do it too, I'll be okay. So she just...

said what she thought they wanted to hear and it all went horrendously wrong. Poor Catherine. Very sad. Up next, we've got Catherine Parr. You must have been looking at this absolute shit show and just thinking, what on earth was

So is she even on the scene at this point? Catherine isn't on the scene at this point because she herself is married off elsewhere. So...

That doesn't happen until later. She doesn't come around until a year or so, a bit more after Catherine Howard's execution. And if you want to know more about her, then you're going to have to tune into the next episode. But Nicola, you have been fascinating as you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? They can follow me on my social media platforms, which are X.

Instagram and TikTok and threads actually. And they can also have a look at my website, nicolatalis.com. Thank you so much. I will see you next time. And for now, Team Catherine. Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Nicola for joining me. And if you like what you heard, well, then don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just fancied saying hi, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com.

Coming next week, we have got the sixth and final episode in our limited series, all about the rather distinguished Catherine Parr, as well as an episode on exploring medieval women, their achievements and what they smelled like. This podcast was edited by Tom DeLarge and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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