Genghis Khan's Sex Life
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Out here on the Mongolian steppe in the 12th century, life is transient. Tribes look for pastures new with their livestock, moving in sync with the seasons. And you know what? It's absolutely bloody exhausting. Can we not just settle and put down some roots? I'm sick of living out of my suitcase, constantly dragging it along the Mongolian plains.

But this one family that I've been bunking with seem to absolutely love it. In fact, they all do, so who on earth am I to judge? Not only that, but their son Timurjan seems like quite an ambitious fellow and he's talking about one day uniting the tribes of Mongolia to create one of the most powerful empires in history. Don't kids say the craziest things? But what will become of this boy who will one day be called, ba-ba-bomb, Genghis Khan? Well, I'm ready to find out if you are. Let's do it!

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Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. He's spoken of as one of the really big monsters in history. Even his name, Genghis Khan, which isn't actually his birth name, it's a stage name, means universal leader. He wasn't shy.

But who was the man behind the reputation? Was he really the all-conquering, sexually violent man that we've been led to believe he was? Did Genghis Khan have a softer side? And what was 12th century Mongolia really like? Well, joining me today to find out is historian Marie Fevereau to take us back to this world and help me find out. So without further ado, let's crack on.

Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Marie Favreau. How are you doing?

I'm doing very well. Thank you. I'm so excited to have you here because we have never, ever spoken about Genghis Khan on this podcast, which seems a spectacular oversight. And you are the author of, I'll give it the full title, The Horde, How the Mongols Changed the World. So as a starter question, what made you want to write a book about the Mongol Empire and Mr. Khan?

Thank you for your question. Well, actually, it goes back to when I was a student in history in Paris, I started learning about big empires. You know, I learned about the Ottoman Empire, the Abbasid Empire, the Roman Empire, obviously.

And then suddenly I heard about some Mongol empire. It was all new for me. And when I start looking for books for information, well, it was 20 years ago, right? But actually I found nothing. I mean, everybody said, we have nothing. This was a nomadic empire. Maybe there was not so many written sources. We don't have enough information. And it's an obscure empire. So it triggered my interest very honestly. And so I was like, okay, hey,

I'm going to find some information. So I start traveling all around Central Asia, Basithi and Russia to find information. And I'm still traveling and living in Central Asia. But I found a lot on this Mongol Empire.

So who were the Mongols then? Who was the Mongol Empire? Because I think most of my knowledge of Genghis Khan is informed by Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, which is not very helpful here. So who were they? Okay, yes, sure. Well, then, look, the first time we see the name Mongol in the sources, historical sources, is around the 12th century. Actually, we see it there.

very rarely before, but it's really in the 12th century that we see this name appearing as name of a kind of new nomadic people, very active in what is Mongolia today. So basically the Eastern Eurasia, right? So it's north of China and east of Central Asia in this area, very cold, a lot of steppes.

nomadic people living there, herders. So we see this name appearing, Mongols, and we see also that apparently there were a lot of, interestingly, state experience there, old state experience, like empires existed before the 12th century. Not with the name Mongols, it was associated with other names like Turks, like

Uyghur, maybe some of our listeners have heard of those names. Turks come from eastern Mongolia. They come from the east of Asia. And they built empires there. So when Mongols appeared around the 12th century, they were before Mongolia.

strong experience of state organization, strong armies, conquest, trade, also a lot of diplomacy with China and with Central Asia. So it sounds new to us Westerners, but if you think about the 12th century, this era in the world already had a lot of experience. And that's where Genghis Khan is born. So the Mongols, they're nomadic people.

They value horse riding. I'm sorry, this is going to sound really ignorant of me now, but did they build towns and cities or were they just always on the move? That's a very important question. So actually, it's both. They are on the move. They move with seasons, you know, it makes sense. Weather is bad here, you move there, right? And also you are a big herd. So the animals, they move with you and they need good grass.

They need new water, fresh water. So you need to move them. So the movies make sense. But what is interesting is they also build cities. They build monuments. They are interested in permanent structures. They don't live in those structures. They don't live in those cities.

They make all the people live in them, but they don't stay in them themselves. They finance. They are happy to pass through them. Sometimes they organize like ceremonies, like rituals in cities. Wow. But they don't live in them. So we historians and archaeologists,

In Mongolia, when we work in Mongolia today, we find the traces of these old archaeological remains, like old cities, you know. But we also know that these people were nomads and never wanted to settle, tried to settle down in city. They never wanted to be closing to four walls. They still continue their life as herders. They like, they love and value the freedom of the life in the steppe. Wow.

And they are also clever because, you know, in this area, winter is super cold and summer is super hot. So it makes sense to move, you know, just to sort of escape the difficulties of weather. So what's the...

One huge Mongol tribe or multiple smaller... I'm just trying to get a sense of how the empire worked. Was there like select groups that fought one another or did they get along or how was it set up? We know in 12th century there were a lot of fights among smaller groups. We can call them tribes. Some people like to say people. There are a lot of names, but they also have their own names. Mongol is just one among other names that we see at that time.

There's another name that is famous, which is Tatar. Tatar name is famous too. But, you know, they were Kongira people. So all these people, they have name. They shape groups and or tribes, if you prefer. And they have alliance. They have fights. It's a very lively area, politically speaking.

They don't fight all the time. They also trade among themselves. They have some differences, but they understand each other. Like they have some common rules. Hospitality, for instance, is important. The fact that you're a herder, the fact that you live with the seasons, it's like common to all those people. They also have some ritual, like religious rituals.

They believe in the spirits of the land and the spirit of nature, lakes, rivers, mountains. They have all this in common, you see. But, you know, there's no unity. And Genghis Khan is going to change that because he's going to build up the unity of the tribes, the unity of the nomads in the steppe. And that's something really new. And it's going to take him a lot of time, probably more than 20 years.

All right, so let's talk about, you said Genghis and I say Genghis. Which one is it? Because I don't want to get it wrong. Well, look, I would say Genghis is correct. But if we want to say Genghis, it's fine too. But Genghis Khan. And Genghis Khan, you know, is a title. It's not his first name, actually. He has a name. Isn't it? Yeah, his name is Temüjin. Temüjin, it means something like blacksmiths.

And it's his real name. And Genghis Khan is a title. It's a stage name. Yes, exactly, yeah. So we can call him Kenujin. Oh, I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him, though, because he does have a reputation as quite a fearsome historical character, doesn't he? Yeah. He's sort of one of those iconic historical characters that we think we know things about, but we almost certainly don't. And he has a reputation for...

wildness and savagery and am I right in thinking that George R.R. Martin based the Dothraki off what he thought the Mongol hordes were so I've got a bit of like that's in there as well can you clear some of this up for us and tell us first of all where did Genghis Khan

come from? What is his origin story? Because if he wasn't born Genghis Khan, he was born blacksmith. He was born blacksmith. Yeah. But you see, blacksmith in this world at that time, it's already an elite title. It means...

you can't work with metal it means you're coming from an maybe ironsmith's family it means you're coming from a good family it's not anyone can be you know pretend being a blacksmith and blacksmith's metal means you know iron meaning weapons it

It means wealth. It means being strong. All this. So his father is not like a king. He's more of a local chieftain, we think. But he might have had a famous grandfather. We're not sure of that. But we think maybe his grandfather was a very, very powerful man. So he's not coming from anywhere. In the steppe, he's coming from aristocracy, like

He's already from a warrior family and he's somebody when he's born. But then his father died when he was young and the family lost control of the tribe. And the Mughal just basically left his mother. When he was around 10 years old, he was really alone with his mother and brothers and sisters. And he had really a harsh time. This has been described in the sources.

trying to fight for, you know, to survive in the steppe and being, you know, feeling he has been abandoned by his own people. So the idea is to show he's coming from this aristocracy, but at the same time, he's a self-made man also. You know, he had to fight to reach the throne and to build up what will become this special character, Genghis Khan. And this title, Genghis Khan, basically is a completely unknown title

Because at that time in the step or even in medieval world, you know, title are reused. You know, Caesar, you know, I don't know. A lot of title are like circulates. This title is...

For us historians, as we can see, looking at sources, it's completely new. He invented his own title. So I like this character. Someone who has this heritage, this tradition, empire before him, the great Turks and all. But at the same time, he has to build up something new. And so the combination of both is very interesting, very dynamic.

So he's born, and it seems like there's a sort of a warrior lineage. He's born from a good family.

Then they lose control and they're kind of cast out when he's a young boy. Is that right? Exactly. How did you get to be the chieftain, the king, the ruler in these cultures? Is it an inherited right or is it I'm the strongest, so I win? I don't know. It's very interesting. There are different elements. So, okay, you need to be well-born. That's clear. It's there. But you have to fight. Yeah.

you have to show you're available to your people so the idea is like you cannot be a kid you cannot be a

very old man neither you have to be in between because you have to be able physically able like to go on the battlefield or to negotiate in terms of diplomacy or to also make children at this and so you have to be really in the full power like physically and mentally that's also there so being well born is not enough

It's a good thing, but it's not enough. And also when we say being well-born, it's important to understand it's not only through your father line, but through your mother line as well. The mother is very important and also the generation, the pedigree through the mother line is absolutely there. So you have to show you have both. And then you have to show you're able on the battlefield. Because the difference with Western Europe is

It's not only about the eldest son in your family. So if you have a brother or even a cousin or nephew who is super able, but then you have to fight with this person because it's not necessarily the eldest son. It can be any son, any son, clever, physically powerful, and also able probably to create some diplomacy and to be well-accepted and appreciated.

by others. This is also super important. If you act like too harshly to your people, they're going to leave you at some point. And nomads have this freedom to leave, right? Yeah.

Wow. So this sounds like quite a harsh childhood. I don't know, I wasn't expecting Genghis Khan to have had a comfortable, well-adjusted childhood. But this sounds like it's quite brutal. And it sounds like there were some points where he might not have survived. So what happens from this little boy that's been cast out...

How does he become the warrior? There are different steps. One, his father, before he died, married his son, Timmy Chin, to a young girl. I mean, young. She was one year older than his son. So they were at that time around nine and ten years old. It doesn't mean the marriage really happened, but they were pro-Marx to one another, we understand. And this girl, Berthe, she's going to be, she's going to really improve

supports her fiancé and then husband. And her family is kind of a rich family, so she's going to bring some wealth to Tengiz, to Tengiz.

And Temujin is going to use the wealth. So this wealth at that time is actually it's like a pelt. It's a fur. It's a black skin, black fur. It means millions at that time. Wow. So it's not cash, but it's like cash, right? It's this black saboteur. It's a fur coat, if you want. And this fur coat, his wife's going to give it to him. He's going to use it. And he's going to buy...

He's first very important ally through this, by giving this coat to him. And this king, local king called Ong Han, he has a number of name sources, was like the local ruler, local king in the steppe.

from Kereid people, so another type of people, because she's a nomadic people, and he was very powerful. He was a good friend of Temujin's father, and Temujin come and say, look, I give you this fur coat that means be my ally. We have to fight together. And can you fight with me? Can you help me? And since that time, they start to sort of work together, and that's the first step, I would say. But it's interesting because you look at the first step, it's not a military step.

It's a diplomatic way. And also it's how Genghis use whatever is in his hands. So he got this marriage, he got the fur coat, then he got the first strong ally, then he will move on always. And always we negotiate his position, never get a deal. He's like, okay, I have this, now I want more and I will build up on what I have.

And renegotiate his relationship to his neighbors, to his allies. And that's where you see the character taking shit. So he's got a fur coat, which by all accounts was a very impressive fur coat. Yeah.

When does he take the name Genghis and what does it mean? Well, we think the name was taken around at the end of the 12th century. Maybe, I mean, there's a key date, which is 1206. It's interesting. 1206 is the date where we know he's already known as Genghis Khan. And he has made already his work like unified many tribes in Mongolia. But he's not young. He is already something like...

14. He has already a long experience. And that's where you can see that he's going to develop a second career. And he's going to go out of Mongolia with his troops, go to China and Central Asia. We can talk about this later. But then, 12 or 6, we know this name becomes famous. And he sort of says, this is my title. And we think this title means something like

Maybe world or universal leader. I mean, Han is a king, he's an emperor, so he's a leader. Genghis is more complex to interpret. It might mean the sea. At that time, there's this idea that around the world, there's an ocean which sort of goes all around the world.

So Genghis might mean the name of this ocean, like the ocean around the world, which would mean actually the king of the world, right?

So that is an interpretation, but we're not sure. But that's certainly part of this, maybe ambition, not to be king of the whole world, because what is the whole world for these people of that time? What do they know about the world? But certainly to be the king among these people and the king of the nomad. That's also something you can see clearly for people at that time. The most important in the world are nomadic people.

people and that's where Genghis kind of wants to build up his name and also to sort of create a dynasty push his family to be like the leader family of the nomads in the whole step. Am I right in thinking that his first wife Borty was kidnapped?

and that he had to go and rescue her. Absolutely. So kidnapping women is something that happened at that time. We see it was also first with Cengiz's mother. Cengiz's mother, Orilum, she had been kidnapped by Cengiz's father. She was promised to someone else and she has been kidnapped. So we know that it happened. Well, the thing is marriage at that time is very much kind of a political alliance.

So if you want to sort of develop your power, if you want to grow politically speaking also, your white is super important. And especially your first white. So...

So that's why, on the one hand, for Genghis, her birthday was very important. She gave him this haircut, as you know. She was loyal to him because they were compromised to each other in their youth, and she remained tasteful to him.

But then the people of his mother who lost his mother because she was kidnapped from them, the Merkits people, they decided to get their revenge and they captured his wife because of this, you know, his father and mother's story. So this whole revenge thing is interesting, but

Most importantly, I would say is Cengiz really had a long, long fight to get her back. The idea is not, okay, well, I lost my wife and then I can have other wives. It's no, I want her back. And that was also one of the key aspects of his alliance with the Buddha. He gave the prayer code to, okay, I lost my wife back. So there are different stories in Sorsi. There were some fights and battles, but also negotiations behind it.

and she came back to him and they will always remain in all the forces as we can see a couple like they will always remain the couple they will have four sons together and

And the four sons they have together are going to be like founders of new dynasties in all Central Asia, in Northern China, in Mongolia. So this is a real beginning of the story of the family, the story of a couple. So you cannot study Genghis Khan without studying Bertin, his first wife.

they are really so together since the beginning and although of course you know sources historical sources official sources you know it's not always the truth but it means that for the people of the time it was important at least to portray them as a couple and to show how she was so important to them a power couple yeah i'll be back with marie after this short break

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He fell out with his brothers, didn't he? There was a lot of fighting and going to war with his brothers. Yep. Well, it said in the sources that he killed his half-brother, who was the eldest actually in the family, for fighting over fish. Of course. Yeah. The idea is really to make people understand they have a lot of harsh lives.

They have to share the food. And when you share the food, you share the food according to the hierarchy of the family. And there's a fight because Genghis and his eldest brother, they don't have the same mother. So Genghis is not the eldest in a way. So he has to show, okay, there's no negotiation. I'm the leader.

So that's, I think that's behind the story. So we don't know if he really killed his half brother, but what it means behind is like, there's no negotiation about who's the leader. It's by respect. Exactly. Yeah. It's all about respect. And also, I mean, it's also when you get a victory, when you share, you share, but you share according to people's rank. Yeah.

That's also the other thing. So everybody got to share. But according to birth rank or, you know, social rank, that's also behind the story. Now, Genghis Khan is known for a lot of things. He's got a reputation for extreme violence and like bloodthirsty going into battle. You wouldn't want to mess with him. How fair is that? Would you have said that he was more violent and aggressive than other people?

Or is that well-deserved? Yeah, that's a very important question. And also hard to answer. What I would say is not totally fair in the sense that why we would have been more bloodthirsty than others in history, or even I think some of the greats, or I don't know, any tax we want to pick up from the past.

He's clearly not after blood. When you look at his action, his career, even everything we know from sources, his idea is certainly to build up an empire. So he's a kind of half-schooler in that sense. But he looks for diplomacy. He looks for negotiation. He looks also for, and sometimes, he makes mistakes and he acknowledges he makes mistakes. And it's

It's interesting, his mother, for instance, or his wife would be presented in sources that are telling him, you know, you made mistakes. You, either the mother saying, you killed, you have brothers, this is horrible, how can you do that? You have to be all together, we are one family. Or his wife also advising him to do this and that. And you can see that he listened to that. He's not someone who is sort of crazy and, you know,

just going for finance. It's not the portrait. Like a wild person. Exactly. So now the very negative part of J-D-Span also is from later time because during colonial period, also in the West, and not only in the West, I mean, Russia and China, the idea that nomads could have been at some point, you know, the rulers of the world or even their own countries were not.

that were appreciated and they looked into sources to find anything negative about him. But the truth is,

Yeah. I mean, there have been wars, there have been violence that is absolutely uncertain, but it's not worse than another. And even we know that he said, look, I want new subjects. I don't want dead people. So, you know, if you conquer a city, you need to, okay, make prisoners if you want. But what I want is taxpayers. It's not slaves who are dying, you know, because this makes no sense.

So this is more rational than the popular portraits that has been built in movies and stuff like that. I can't imagine that you would be able to successfully build an empire without subjugating and being quite cruel and being quite a brutal leader because they all were. But he wasn't...

which is kind of how he's often portrayed as this wild, savage, completely crazy person. He wasn't that at all. No, absolutely not. And he's also super interesting because he can really move from, as you said, like, battle pitch, diplomacy, negotiation. You know, he can, he has different faces, right?

And I think also it's interesting to look at what are the goals. You know, it's not after, yeah, it is not, I want to educate the world. It never said, oh, we have no trace in forces where it just said he wanted to be the leader of the world. What he wants is certainly to be the leader of the nomads.

But that's different, right? And also, we have to remind that. Imagine 13th century. What is more precious at that time than men and women, than people? People are the most precious things. So what Genghis is after is to enroll more people. He wants to integrate people. And to do that, of course, you can just make prisoners, but you also have to convince people. Because...

Genghis and the nomadic leader are not stupid. They know that, you know, if you force people, they're not going to laugh. And they always think about the future. And this is really clear, you know, that's really the nomadic mind. A lot of people might be quite surprised to hear about Genghis's wife,

Not that he was married. I don't think that'll surprise anyone. But the idea that there was at one point one wife. Because if there's someone else that Genghis is known for, it's for being an absolute sex rampaging dirtbag. Can't keep it in his pants. Having it away with absolutely everything. He has that reputation of...

sexual aggression and sexual assault is attached to him as well. So can I ask you, how far is that warranted? Did he have more than one wife? And where does that reputation come from? Yeah, this is so interesting. Okay, so yes, he had more than one wife. So in this nomadic world, there's no restriction on number of marriage. So you can have as many wives as you can afford because of course, you have to be fair to them and you need to share with them.

So, only leaders have several wives, like you can see later on in the missing world.

That's one thing. Other interesting thing is, of course, that there's no religious restriction. Like in, you know, Christian world, there's religious restriction. You know, it doesn't mean that people have sexual restriction. It doesn't mean that socially they can have only one. So in this Mongol world, you can have socially, you can have more, even more than four, which is like the number in the Islamic world. But only the first one or the primary one.

can really provide the hair. The sons that are going to be fully legitimate to get the throne, they are coming from the couple. So the couple is super important officially. You see the couple everywhere in miniatures. There's a lot of images depicting the couple being in love on the throne. And it's true, they officially show themselves as a couple. So like if you are an ambassador, you come to Gingrich's,

to present, you know, a gift. You're coming from faraway country, you will see him and you will see his wife, his first wife together on the same throne. The other throne is two, you know, two seats. So that's this idea of, you know, some sort of equal standing between the wife

So that's one aspect. Of course, at the same time, there are other rights. And these other rights are to be important as well, politically speaking. But they are under the authority of the first wife. So Beric is the first wife. Normally, she controls the other wives. That's how it works. Oh, no. Imagine, yeah. Okay. But last thing is concerning sexual assault and stuff like that. So this is coming from later narratives. So for Genghis himself,

We have absolutely no description in any sources about rape being a woman or just even saying it's good to do it or sort of letting his armies, enjoying women, like feeling. It's never there. No evidence of that at all. Not evidence of that at all for him. That's amazing. But imagine for formidable period, just the fact that he can have as many women as he wants.

in terms of wives or concubines, already is like, it means these are crazy sexually, right? It means that there's a limit, which actually is not true. There are limits, but it was seen as such. Then also, of course, in later sources, especially with one of his sons, we have description of rape during Mongol conquest in different places. And it's clear that...

Unfortunately, like, you know, conquest armies, they, you know, led by men and they were, yeah, sure, there was some sexual violence, certainly. Of course. You cannot deny this. But it's not something that is supported by Genghis or, you know, saying that he's good, he's good to act like this. Obviously not.

And then finally, of course, I have to say as a historian, I'd love to know more about real sexual life or of the time or even love. He might have or not for his wife and the love she might have or not for him. In sources, it's said that they had a feeling for each other. I mean, it looks like so. And at least they really worked together as a couple in the same direction for a period of time.

But I have to add that we know when Jane is died, we don't know when it's worked out. And she was the first lady. So it means that at some point she became less important or she disappeared. We don't know how she disappeared. We don't know what happened to her at the end. Someone asked the other wives. Exactly. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of mysteries, but you have to keep in mind that, you know, maybe something happened to her at some point. I'll be back with Marie after this short break.

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In 2003, there was a study, wasn't there, of Asian men and they found that 8% of all men in Asia descended from one gene source. And it was speculated that that was Genghis Khan, which I suppose hasn't helped his reputation as Asian.

as a top shagger. What can you tell me about that piece of research? Well, this is very questionable and for a number of reasons, although it's interesting. First of all, I have to say, I have to tell that we don't have James's body. We don't know where James has been buried. We don't know. No, it's a secret he was kept in jail today.

There are expectations and interpretations and ideas, maybe it's Mongolia and Burhan Khaldun. Some other people say they have other ideas, but in any case, we don't have JVCNA.

That's the first thing I want to say. So anything else is a guess. But it's true now that we work more and more on DNA that there's a connection between many people in Central Asia, from Mongolia to Hungary, let's say. And they have some common origin somewhere. So people guess because...

Because it was so easy. And they said, oh, it comes from Genghis Khan's period and from him himself, you know? Yeah. Maybe, but no way we can prove it at that point. So we need more studies. Also, I heard from colleagues who were working on DNA that we don't have enough studies on European, you know, also regions, but it might have been the same. Like, not that they are all coming from Genghis at all, but that they might have some common origin at some points. So...

We need to work more on that, but I think what is key to understanding your history is that being from Genghis was for a very long time until actually the 18th century, the best thing that could happen to you because it's the best category. It means you're coming from the elite of the elite. So people would anyway claim that they were coming from Genghis. It was the best experience.

If you want to be a ruler, if you want to be a warrior, if you want to be respected in all Central Asia. And there were dynasties coming from Genghis until the 18th century and in many places. So it's funny because until late 18th century, it was really a blessing to say or to prove that you were coming from Genghis family. And then colonial period, modern time, it

it's like a shape and now today we are more balanced so final question then how did Genghis die what what took him out that's so important that we still guess he died much wrong okay probably 60 something which at that time means you know long career and so on we know he died in 1227

We know he died probably during summer, probably August. And at that moment, his armies were in what is now Western China, central Western China, Tangut's kingdom of that time. Tangut, he built against the Mongols. So Mongols were fighting Japan and fighting it all. We know he probably, he was as being endured at some point, or maybe he was sick. Some other sources say maybe he was sick. So some people say after plague, but we don't know. There were plenty of,

disease at that time. So one of them either injured, either doing prides, either sick, but he was not young. So it's kind of normal. But in

Interesting thing is they hide at that time. They decided to hide the fact that he died because, first of all, they wanted to continue their conquest. And it's hard to say if he died. The other reason is he had no idea about succession. It was not clear who would really be the successor. And he had also at that time three sons. One was dead already. But then there were discussions about that.

And last, they wanted to, there was some taboo around the body. They wanted nobody to approach his body, to touch his bones, his flesh. He was like almost becoming a god.

So they sort of found a secret place where he had been buried and protected. And it's still today, you know, all super protected. And we thought, no, we guess, but we're not sure. And I think maybe among all the leaders of the world, he's the one along which there's so much mystery, how he died and where he has been buried.

That's why his DNA is also a big question mark. I just don't know. Marie, you have been fascinating to talk to. Thank you so much for coming to tell us about this very misunderstood, but still quite violent man. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? I think they can find my book called The Horde. They can also find me online. I work in an institute and I live in Kurdistan, Bishkek. So I live in Central Asia.

It was really the core of James Hunt's empire where I live now. And I conduct my research there. And they can also find some documentaries I've been part of on Smithsonian Channel. James Hunt's Mongolia, I've been part of his documentary. That's fantastic. Thank you so much. You have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much, Kate. It was such a pleasure for me.

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Marie for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. Coming up, we've got episodes on the sex lives of the Spartans and a special collaboration with the Cautionary Tales podcast all coming your way.

This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again between the sheets, the history of sex scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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