Jane Seymour | Secret Lives of the Six Wives
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Hello, my lovely Bertwicksters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am here with another episode of Bertwickster Sheets. But to make sure that we're all safe and everything is above board and you are all protected and squedged up and safe and nothing is going to upset you, I have to give you the fair dues warning and here it is. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adultic things in an adult way covering a range of adult subjects. Do I need

whole thing all the way through. We know it by now, don't we? It's an adult thing. If you're not an adult, bugger off. And for the rest of you that are buggering in, do you bugger in instead of buggering off? I don't know. But let's get on with the show.

Being a Tudor queen was very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well, then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how harebrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan.

The women in Henry VIII's life were smart... She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it. ..powerful... She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as, like, a war trophy. ..and rebellious. She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.

But they could also be naive. She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips up. And downright unlucky. I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.

Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband, a fat ginger serial killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this mini-series as we explore the secret lives of the six wives.

What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful times. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Jerry. Thank you.

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. You could be forgiven for thinking that wife fatigue must have been setting in by the time old Henry was looking for wife number three. Not to throw any shade whatsoever on the rather lovely Miss Seymour, of course, and perhaps the Tudor dating pool for a royal was, well, I guess it must have been somewhat limited, but

another lady-in-waiting from the Queen's bedchamber. Really? That was the limit of the imagination? Come on. Mind you, I suppose by that time word was getting around and women were less and less reluctant to sign up to Henry.

But just like Anne Boleyn before her, Jane caught Henry's eye while serving in the chamber of her predecessor. He doesn't look far, does he? Unlike Anne, however, Jane Seymour is unique as the only wife of Henry's to receive a queen's funeral.

She was also the only one not only to lose her head, her title or her husband. In fact, she was an absolute roaring success. Apart from the fact that she died in childbirth, obviously. What was it about her character that made Jane Seymour so different from Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon before her?

And how did it all go so horribly wrong? In this third episode of our mini-series, The Secret Lives of the Six Wives, I am joined once again by the rather marvellous Tudor expert, Dr Nicola Tallis, to help us get to know Jane Seymour a little bit better. Well, without further ado, let's crack on!

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's Nicola Tallis. I'm so pleased to have you here again. How are you doing? I'm so pleased to be here again, Kate. I'm great. How are you? I have so much fun talking to you about these women. Honestly, I think that I know about them, but then just talking to you, you bring out so much more. And of all of Henry's wives, I'm so pleased to have you here again.

I think possibly Jane Seymour is the one that I know the least about. She's kind of got that sort of like, oh, he really liked her and then she died and it was sad. That's kind of what you think about Jane Seymour. So I'm really looking forward to getting to know a bit more about her. Oh.

Oh, well, hopefully we can change that perception a little bit and show that there was more to Jane than meets the eye. Now, where were we up to? We had looked at Catherine of Aragon, either stubborn or feisty, depending on how you want to look at that. She fought tooth and nail to stay married to the king, and he was just having none of it. Very, very religious, very, very pious, apt

Absolutely swore down she did not have sex with Henry's brother, although that is up for debate. Then we had a look at Anne, who muscled in...

And whatever you've got to say about Anne, she's impressive. She's an impressive woman to not only catch the king's eye, like that's pretty easy to catch the king's eye, but to keep it and keep his interest for seven years without having sex with him and to stir him up to the point where he will rip the country apart and break with Rome just to marry her. Oh my God. Impressive. Right.

I mean, yeah, that's quite a bad catalogue, isn't it? Isn't it? Really, by the time you get to Jane Seymour, you're thinking, goodness me, what else is there to come? But the thing is, he must have thought when he married Anne, this is it. I've got this sorted now. Like, I've broken from Rome. The Pope is cross at me. Possibly God is cross at me. I've started my whole new religion. Catherine's been kicked to the curb. His daughter Mary is, I don't know what she's doing, but she's certainly not in succession anymore. Yeah.

Anne is there and she's pregnant. He must have thought, I've got this sorted, but it went wrong so quickly. So where on earth does our lovely Jane fit in with this? Because she doesn't, I don't know her, but she doesn't strike me as a home wrecking, shrewd, intellectual type. How on earth did she get caught up in this madness?

I mean, I think that that, the fact that you said she doesn't strike you as that, I think that that just goes to show what a good job she did in some ways. Oh, yes. Because there was definitely more to Jane than meets the eye. And she has kind of got this reputation for

as being this really meek, mild mouse, really. Yeah, like kind of like, oh, how did I end up in the bed of the king? Oh, like that kind of thing. As if it wasn't carefully stage managed. God, it must have been. It really was. Oh, you're right. It really was.

She was. And I mean, let's not forget, Jane Seymour was a member of Anne Boleyn's household. She had also been a member of Catherine of Aragon's household. So she's seen the way in which...

She's watched and learned. She's seen the experiences of these two women before her. And she knows how Anne operates. She knows how Catherine operates. And she's also seen how Henry has quickly grown tired of Anne. And we talked about the fact that

Anne didn't cope very well with this transition from mistress to wife. He wanted a wife who was going to be obedient, who was going to let him have his own way. And Anne wasn't going to do that.

But Jane saw that that's what Henry wanted. And if that's what Henry wanted, and that's the way that you catch a king, well, that's what I'm going to do. And that's exactly what Jane does. She plays the same game that Anne had played. The only difference is she uses different tactics and she proves to be a better player. I would not want to get...

muddled up in this. I mean, if you had been in Jane's position, you knew Catherine, you knew Anne, you saw what happened to Catherine, Anne's head is on a spike. I would run a mile. I've got radioactive herpes. You can't marry me. I'm off. I just, why would you even risk this?

Well, Jane has come from a humble-ish background. It's lower down in the gentry scale than Anne Boleyn. She's come from a family where there are a number of children to marry off. Her prospects are...

you know, they're okay. She might expect to marry another member of the gentry, but not anything particularly special. And she's got this place at court. There's this opportunity to push her forward as an opponent, I guess, of Anne Boleyn. And she and her family seize that opportunity. They take that. She is probably in her,

her mid to late 20s at this point and again Tudor standards that's quite old not to be married at that point so options are running out for her as well really why wasn't she married like where did she grow up and when did she end up in the court what kind of childhood did Jane have

Well, we don't know a great deal about that childhood. We know that she was raised primarily at her family home of Wolf Hall in Wiltshire and that she was raised surrounded by her siblings. She has her father, Sir John Seymour, who's a relatively...

minor gentry gentleman, and then her mother, Marjorie. And we don't think that she was particularly well educated. Again, she seems to have been taught all of those accomplishments that were thought to be good for girls. So, you know, all your sewing, all of your... Singing. Yeah, that sort of thing. But she doesn't seem to have been scholarly in the same way that Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon had been. So...

That sets her apart. And she does obviously have this place then at court, first in Catherine's household and then Anne's, where presumably her parents hope that a marriage will be made for her. But it's not. Nothing ever happens. And so she is, as I say, quite, quite

Quite old, really, to be unmarried at this point, and really kind of states her claim to Henry probably in 1535, the year before Anne Boleyn's execution. And it really snowballs and goes from there. When do you think they first met? When did Henry first lay eyes on Jane?

Well, again, it's a really tricky one to answer. Some people will say that it was when Henry and Anne Boleyn were visiting Jane's home of Wolf Hall in 1535 when they were touring the West Country. So it is possible that it was then or it was possible that it was before sometime when Jane was serving in Catherine and Anne's household and that perhaps she just hadn't really attracted his notice.

There wasn't anything, again, particularly remarkable about her appearances.

She was considered to be quite plain. Not really pretty? No, not really. Yeah, even at the time people are saying that she's kind of okay, but, you know, she's quite pale and not particularly beautiful. What do you think it was then? Why? I mean, so she's not well-educated. She's not very scholarly. She's sort of knocking on a bit by Tudor standards and she's not much of a looker. What was she offering Henry then?

She was offering him the calmness and the serenity that he craved and wasn't getting from Anne Boleyn. Well, that's certainly what she appeared to be offering anyway. I think that anyone who is prepared to...

kind of helps steal their mistress's husband has got something about them that is more than just being meek and mild. There is a steely kind of determination there. And we see that basically where Anne appears fiery,

Jane appears demure and calm. And where Anne likes to have shouting matches when she can't get her own way, Jane doesn't do that at all. She's much quieter. She's more respectful. She plays on her virtue and her honor. And when Henry begins to show an interest in her, she does exactly the same as Anne. She holds out for marriage, but

And she makes it clear that she won't be the king's mistress. She's really holding out for a husband. And Henry falls for it again. Wonderful.

When do they start talking about marriage? I mean, are there any letters between them that survive? At what point does it shift from, here's a nice present that the king has sent you, Jane Seymour, to you have to leave your wife and marry me? Well, there aren't any letters between them, sadly. So we haven't got that same kind of evidence as we do with Anne Boleyn. We do see Henry giving Jane gifts. So on one occasion, he tries to give her some money, a purse of gold, and

And even Jane kind of draws the line at that and is like, yeah, she really draws on her modesty at this point. And she's like, actually, I'm going to return this gift to you. And perhaps you can send it back to me when I've got a husband to marry. And that I think is perhaps a

bit of a turning point in Henry's mind where he's thinking, oh, okay, hang on there. And I think that actually things happen very quickly in terms of their relationship. And I think that when...

Anne Boleyn miscarries of that child in January 1536. It's perhaps only at some point after that, that Henry's thoughts turn to a marriage with Jane. And when we see things really snowball with Anne in terms of her fall, that's when it becomes clear that Jane is being set up to be the replacement. I can't imagine what that must have been like. Like,

Like, all right, you've been chatted up by the king and all right, you've dropped hints of marriage. But now his wife has been put on trial for treason and has been sentenced to death. Like, just wow. I know. That takes a certain kind of person to go along with that. She can't have been that meek and mild, can she? Because for all the purses of gold in the world, I would have run a mile from that one.

Yeah, I mean, it must have been... If you think about it, there has never been a precedent for a Queen of England being executed. And I think that whatever Jane's feelings about Anne Boleyn may or may not have been, that...

must have left her terrified it must it must have done i mean that's horrific how could it not yeah exactly and it just kind of goes to show as well the fragile nature of the situation that like your whole status really depended on the king's love and if you lose that you're screwed that's whether or not you're the mistress quite frankly you can be the queen yeah

And he'll get rid of you. So maybe there was even a part of Jane that, you know, like she hadn't quite expected that to happen. And now it has. It's like, oh, well, I guess I'm going to marry the king then. Shit. Yeah, exactly that. I mean, yeah. How can you enter into your wedding day, which happens just 11 days after Anne Boleyn's execution, by the way. Oh, God.

I mean, how can you feel joy and happiness at being Queen of England, knowing that your mistress before you, oh yes, she's just lost her head. I mean, it's a really kind of terrifying legacy and a really terrifying role to fill at that point. I'll be back with Nicola and Jane after this short break.

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So what kind of wife does Jane make then? She's found herself in this situation. Who knows if she actually thought that it was going to go this far, but it has. Do they get married in secret like you did with Anne Boleyn or is it a bit more of a to-do about it? No, they get married.

on the quiet but very shortly after Jane is publicly announced as Queen and there's a lot of celebration and a lot of happiness at this idea of her being Queen. One of Henry's courtiers even says that

he's come out of hell in terms of his marriage with Anne Boleyn and stepped into heaven in terms of his marriage with Jane. So she's more popular. And part of the reason for this is that Jane really champions the interests of Catherine of Aragon's daughter, Mary, who is very much still in the picture at this time, but she had been...

cast into the background whilst Anne Boleyn was Queen and not treated very well at all. And Jane sort of makes it her mission really to rehabilitate Mary and to bring her back into the fold of the royal family and to repair that relationship between Mary and her father. So Jane

I think that she earns the love and admiration of a lot of Henry's subjects for that reason. What about Elizabeth? Does she say anything or do anything for Elizabeth? Not a great deal. And I have to fight James Corner slightly at this point, because...

just because it's sort of said that at this point, Jane neglects Elizabeth. And I mean, who knows, perhaps there was a bit of that, but she does buy clothes for little Elizabeth as well. So there's not total neglect. I think it's just that Mary is much closer in age to Jane Seymour than Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, who's just not even three years old at this point. So there's more of a bond between Mary and Jane. So what was she like at court then? Thinking that Anne Boleyn was this kind of dazzling trendsetter with her big blingy jewellery and French influence. What was Jane like? Was she a trendsetter?

not in the same way. In a lot of ways, she almost tries to emulate Catherine of Aragon. Interesting technique. Yeah, I know. In so much that Catherine is very pious and very religious, and so too is Jane. And she has really high moral standards, particularly for the women who serve her. And Anne Boleyn

had really popularised the wearing of the French hood at the English court. Whereas Jane's like, no, we're not having any of that. That's far too showy. We're going to go back to the very clumpy, frumpy English gable hood. But she does, I will say for her, she does, again, like Anne, but in a different way, she does use her jewels to...

quite dazzling effect, really. So we can see in, there's this wonderful surviving portrait of her and we can see her wearing this really, really blingy necklace that's called the Consort's Necklace. And it features rubies and diamonds and emeralds. And it's really Jane kind of showing off and saying, check me out. I'm Queen of England now. I've got all the kit, all the tools, and I do look the part.

That's not very humble and demure, is it? It's not. No, no, not at all. So was Henry happy with her then? Did he finally find some happiness? And if so, what did Jane do that the others didn't?

Yeah, so Henry does seem to have been largely quite happy with her. Her motto was bound to obey and serve. And I think that he quite liked that because that's pretty much the course that she sees her life taking. And there's only one real instance of them falling out, which is when Jane tries to intervene. At this time, the dissolution of the monasteries is taking place and Jane...

tries to intervene and begs Henry not to dissolve them. And he basically tells her to shut up, to get up and not to interfere in politics. She should take a leaf out of the book of her predecessor, Anne Boleyn, and look at the way that that's gone. And I think that Jane is genuinely so terrified by that.

that after that she ceases meddling altogether and who can blame her? That's the only way I think that you could possibly have dealt with Henry VIII in this time and in this circumstances when women do not have rights and he's the monarch and he will get whatever

and there are no checks on his power anymore, there seems to be, is the only way out of that, I think, would just be to go, yep, sure, all right, yep, you help yourself, sunshine, I'll be over here, and not fight him on anything, basically. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. And I think that we see Jane really kind of just devoting herself to trying to fulfill her primary duty, which is giving Henry that son. Yeah, getting pregnant. But it doesn't happen immediately for her. You know, they're married at the end of May 1536.

She doesn't have a baby until October 1537. So we can imagine that those first few months while she's trying to get pregnant, it must have been quite stressful for her. Again, knowing what's happened to those first two wives, like there's a huge amount of pressure on Anne Boleyn, but there's a crushing amount of pressure on Jane at this point. Could you even imagine? But she does manage to get pregnant. I

How old is Henry by this point? He must be closing in on 50. Yeah, he's in his late 40s at this point. So he's that bit older. Jane's probably about 28, 29 at this time. So again, quite old to be having a first baby by Tudor standards. But yeah, I mean, Henry is delighted when she becomes pregnant and...

Jane also is over the moon. We know she develops this craving for quails during her pregnancy. Also, apparently cucumbers. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, interesting. And we know that her stepdaughter, Mary, was sending her gifts of cucumbers to try and satisfy those cravings.

So yeah, it's quite interesting that relationship between them that really blossoms during this time as well. Was it an easy pregnancy? I mean, as easy as any pregnancy is in the Tudor period. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it all seems to go to plan. Yeah. Until obviously the time when Jane goes into labour and then understandably things are not quite as easy at that point. All right. So you're going to give birth in the Tudor period and you're a queen.

They have some weird ideas around this. They have this lying in idea, don't they? You tell me what that is. What would Jane have been doing? Yeah, so that means basically that around a month before you're due to give birth, you would be secluded from the world. You would go into your chamber, which has been prepared, specially prepared for you to give birth in.

And you basically say goodbye to the real world until you have given birth. It means that you're not allowed the company of men. So Jane would have been surrounded completely by women. Her lying in and her confinement take place at Hampton Court. And it was a really suffocating experience, quite literally, because all of the windows would have been shut.

But all of the fires would have been stoked and there was no light allowed into the room whatsoever. So all of the windows would have been covered. Yes, really, really stifling. And these were all kind of conventions that had been...

put in place perhaps by Henry VIII's own grandmother, Lady Margaret Beauford. So there were really, really strict rules that had to be adhered to that were considered to be really important. You know, for example, it was feared even the wall hangings had to be carefully chosen in case the subject of those wall hangings disappeared.

scared the child when it was born. So there were all these sort of rigmaroles and protocols that were put in place that just seem absolutely ridiculous to us today, but that were really, really important in the Tudor period. So she's in this kind of not quite solitary confinement, but almost sort of prison-ish conditions. Then she goes into labour and

What do we know about the labour? Because obviously the little boy, and he was a boy, hurrah, finally, was born. Was it a difficult labour that she went through? Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a difficult, long and, imagine, very, very painful and traumatic labour. Of course, at this time, there was no form of real pain relief and pain.

for both mother and child was very high. So, and there was no real concept of hygiene either. So it went on for several days and nights and then, yeah, yeah, terrible, terrible experience for Jane. But then all seems well when she does give birth to, like you say, this little boy who's born on the 12th of October and suddenly all

the pain all the trauma all the stress seem worth it because it's

Henry now has a healthy son. Where was Henry when all this was happening? Was he just receiving updates? Was he out hunting? I don't think he was there in the room with her, was he? No, he definitely wasn't in the room though, no. So he was nearby. We don't know exactly what he was doing when he was told, but we know that he was absolutely elated at this and there were...

Bonfires lit throughout the city of London in celebration. Free wine was put into the fountains across the city as well for the citizens to enjoy the celebrations. And, you know, the bells were rung in churches. It was really a nationwide event.

triumph and celebration that wasn't just Henry's and wasn't just Jane's. It was there for the whole of the country to enjoy. I mean, God, the relief of it. I mean, it's an awful system. It's horribly misogynistic and all the rest of it, but you can, even now you can feel the palpable, I think, fuck for that. Maybe he'll stop being quite such a lunatic about this now. And in a little confinement room, Jane's given birth and in the immediate aftermath, she must have been

quite pleased about this, but what happens next? Yeah. So to begin with, everything seems fine. Jane seems well. She is well enough to write a letter to Henry's chief advisor, Thomas Cromwell, celebrating the birth. And why wouldn't you? You're the wife who's provided Henry with what he's always wanted. You're

Little Edward is christened at Hampton Court three days after he's born. And it's shortly after that christening that suddenly Jane becomes unwell. And it seems to have become apparent. Well, there are different theories as to what happened. Some people think that she suffered from food poisoning.

Some people think that pure peril fever set in as a result of poor hygiene and doctor's dirty hands, which is also really likely. So what's clear is that Jane becomes ill and she goes downhill very, very quickly to the point where it becomes apparent that there's no hope of her life being saved.

Wow. And do we know when Henry was informed of that? We don't know exactly, but there is a letter from one of Henry's courtiers that was written to another courtier, which basically says, hurry up and get here because our master, he's going to be upset about this and he's going to need comforting. So you need to come along and help.

So I think Henry would have become aware at the same time as everybody else around him that the Queen was dying. Just gutted. Yeah, that there was nothing that could be done to save her. I mean, it was probably, well, what do I know? I'm not a medic, but...

So many of these baby deaths in labour were caused by poor hygiene and infections setting in. How long after the birth was it that she died? 12 days. Oh, so you wouldn't even see that coming, would you?

No, that's it. So she is, that is the tragedy of it, I guess, is that Jane achieves what neither of her predecessors have done and she only gets to enjoy it for 12 days before she dies. So it's a sad outcome for her. I'll be back with Nicola and Jane after this short break.

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So poor Jane, dead and gone. How does Henry react to this? To begin with, he's devastated. And, you know, he writes to the King of France saying how the happiness having his son is really mingled with his grief at losing the one who'd given him that son. So he is upset. He can't bear to be around death in any way, shape or form. So he's

He is well away from Hampton Court at this point, leaving Jane's body there to be embalmed and so on. And yeah, he does seem to have mourned Jane in some capacity for the rest of his life. So Henry is definitely mourning by all accounts. He's definitely very sad.

It's a sad thing. But we're still left with the fact that he's a king and he does have a boy baby, but he only has one of them. At what point does he start to think, I might need another wife here? Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right, because really the continuance of his dynasty hinges on the life of that one little baby boy. And it's all very well having the heir. Henry also wants the spare heir.

So he doesn't hang around mourning Jane for very long. And in fact, it's only within weeks of Jane's death that he begins putting out feelers for another wife across Europe. Yeah. And I mean, this time there isn't any obvious candidate in mind. He hasn't fallen in love with a woman of the court in the same way that he did with Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour. So...

That's why he begins looking around in Europe, looking around for a bride who has something of political advantage to bring to the party. And he shows an interest in several candidates.

But it seems clear at some point that really the one who's taken his fancy is a certain Anne of Cleves. Do you think he loved her? I know that's a really difficult question because he's not here, but what do you reckon?

Yeah, I do think that he loved her. I think that more than that, though, I think he loved the idea of her. And I think he loved what she had done for him and what she'd given him. And I think that that's why we see her in so many portraits that were painted after her death now, like, you know, portraits of the Tudor succession, Jane's always there. And I think that's because Henry liked to remind people that she was the woman who had provided him with

with his son. But I don't think it was that same burning love and lust that he had for Anne Boleyn. It gave her a big funeral too. Yeah, she had a funeral at St. George's Chapel, Windsor Castle, where she was buried. And the chief mourner was Jane's stepdaughter, Princess Mary. So she was there overseeing everything.

All of the usual observances are carried out and Jane is laid to rest in the chapel there where Henry would also be buried. So again, that has been taken as another sign that she must have been the wife that he loved the best because he chose to be buried with her. Again, I think that actually he chose to be buried with her because of what she represented and the fact that she had provided him

the next part of their dynasty. In some ways, at least in lore, she's his only actual wife because the first one was an old and then Anne Boleyn, definitely an old. And then, yeah, he only had like two in lore, didn't he? Yeah, that's how he would have seen it. If you'd asked him how many wives he'd have had, he'd have said two. Oh, God, what a dickhead.

Just as we're drawing to a close and thinking about what Jane's legacy was, I suppose we should talk a little bit about who Edward was, this little baby person who turned up. I mean, did Henry absolutely dote on him? He did. He really adored this precious heir that had taken him.

years and years, decades to get. And he was taking no chances with the health of this little boy. He had the walls of Edward's rooms scrubbed daily to try and prevent infection. He was very, very careful about who this little boy came into contact with. So now that he had that child, he was determined to do all that he could to make sure that he survived. And

Edward was raised largely with his sisters. I mean, Mary's much older by this point, but there's only four years between Anne Boleyn's daughter, Elizabeth, and Edward. So they spent a lot of their childhoods together. And Mary seems to have been almost like a replacement mother for them. So...

I think that that's quite nice in some ways, if you can see it that way. But yeah, little Edward, he's petted and adored. And although his father didn't spend a lot of time with him, it is clear that, you know, he worshipped him. As a final question then, what do you think James Seymour's legacy is? I mean, is it more than just, oh, it's sad she died?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I guess the obvious answer is that she provided Henry with...

with the air that he desperately wanted. But I do think, just to kind of be controversial and mix it up a bit, that we could also say that she was the woman who succeeded in stealing Henry's heart from Anne Boleyn. And I think that it takes a certain kind of person to be able to do that. And wasn't she related to Lady Jane Grey, who also met a sticky end? First cousin twice removed thing. It's that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so she was nothing to do with that one then. No, she kind of has a relationship through marriage with one of Jane's sisters, Catherine. Okay, but yeah, her biggest legacy is her son and the fact that maybe she succeeded. And Henry, I mean, if he was buried next to her, she clearly did this quite well. She did something well. Yeah, yeah, she did. And I think she also really learned from Anne Boleyn's mistakes.

In so much that once she'd stuck her nose in once and been told, don't do that again, she doesn't do that again. So she does kind of fulfill all of the duties and expectations of what Henry wanted in a wife and a queen. And if she'd lived, it would have been a very different picture, wouldn't it?

Oh, definitely. Perhaps there would have only been three wives. Perhaps there'd only been three wives. But in a way, I'm glad that there isn't because it means that you can come back next time to tell us about more of Henry VIII's wives. Thank you so much for joining me again. You've been marvellous. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

Well, thank you so much for having me, Kate. And yeah, if anyone wants to check out more about my work, then you can follow me on my social media platforms, which are X, Instagram, Threads and TikTok. And I've also got my website, nicolatalis.com. I will see you next time. Thank you so much. Can't wait.

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Nicola for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcast. And if you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. We've got episodes on the history of celibacy coming your way, as well as the fourth part in this limited series coming next week, which is all about Baba.

Bob Baum, Anne of Cleves. Who else? This podcast was edited by Tom DeLarge and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, a history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound. This holiday season, when you can't be there, let 1800flowers.com deliver. At 1800flowers, every gift is crafted with care and designed to make spirits bright.

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