#106 How RedNote (小红书) ripped success out of the "TikTok refugees"
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Hello everyone, I am with LJ, editor of the World of Chinese magazine, which commissions Middle Earth. Hi Aladdin. So LJ, what are the exclusive stories that you guys have worked on this issue 104? We focus on how urban Chinese residents are reconnecting with nature. So they are lacking nature now? Absolutely. They discovered that there is a serious lack of nature education among urban kids right now. It has a negative impact on them, but there is also a strong effort to change the situation.

In a related story, we explored how a well-designed zoo in Nanjing has attracted large group of followers and how it has inspired them to care more about nature and wildlife.

And so in this issue, what are the other articles? Yeah, we also took a cruise ship down the Yangtze River, traced the history of game consoles in China, and uncovered why Hunan Cuisine in particular is taking China by storm right now. So dear listeners, if you want to know more and support the podcast, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy.

Hi everyone and welcome to Middle-Earth, your source for insight into China's cultural industry. Listen on to those who are making a living by creating and distributing art or content into the world's second biggest cultural market. I'm your host Aladin Fahre, founder of China Compass Production.

If you need a location scouting for an ex-project in China, film translation service, find a co-producer, you should reach out. Also, if you are a Chinese speaker and you don't mind my broken Chinese, don't hesitate to check my Bilibili channel or my Xiaohongchu account, aladinxuodianying. Link in the podcast description. We don't really do breaking news here on this podcast, but considering the sheer scale of what's happening today, it felt important to talk about it. Even, I think, to just leave a trace about the zeitgeist that is recently happening.

So in case you're not really following, but I guess if you listen to the show, you do. Or if you listen to the show as an historian in 100 years to understand like the place of China in this world and maybe before World War III just started. So basically a few days ago, a massive or is it income of what we called TikTok refugee came onto this app called Xia Hongzhu that we are actually doing a live stream right now. So yeah, there are like people talking to the chat.

And yeah, that was kind of a watershed moment when suddenly a lot of people, mainly from North America, were sharing their cat picture. And there's kind of been a lot of positive energy coming up to that. So we saw people sharing their cost of life, helping each other with their homework, give tourism advice, etc. So to talk about today with those...

about this topic we have three guests so first Jim Field hello hi thank you so much for the opportunity to come on and talk with you guys I'm excited to speak with you guys here it's unusual actually I'm a content creator who makes a lot of content in Chinese so it's weird although I'm a native English speaker I rarely have opportunities to speak in English on social media

So it's very fun to do something different. And besides my work as a social media creator, I'm also an entrepreneur who runs a video production company in Beijing, which is called Relay Video, and also doing a social media business, helping Chinese companies go global by working with social media influencers. So thank you guys for having the chance to come on today. Really appreciate it. Next to you in the chat box, Lucy Lu. Hello. Hi, Alaling. Hi, everyone and everyone on live guest.

I am Lucy, I'm Chinese-Australian. I used to work in Australia for 10 years, worked mostly in government and media. And now in Beijing, I am a culture news reporter. And in my spare time, I also create content on social media. What's funny is Jim,

He is a native English speaker, but mostly talks in Mandarin in his social media content. But I'm a native Chinese speaker, but most of my content are in English and they are not on Chinese social media. My content are mostly on Instagram and TikTok. I have about 12,000 fans across both platforms. Thanks, Aladi.

And last but not least, live from the US of A, Wang Zichen. Hello. Hi, it's a pleasure to be on your podcast, Aladin. My name is Zichen Wang, Wang Zichen. I'm currently in New Jersey, the United States. I'm a mid-career student in public policy at Princeton University. I'm on sabbatical from the Center for China and Globalization, CCG, a think tank in Beijing.

Before joining CCG in 2022, I was a journalist for China's state Xinhua News Agency. And on the sidelines, I write technology and the East is read to China newsletters on such stack. So check them out. And we'll, of course, leave all of that when the podcast is up on our official podcast feed. We'll leave all the link of everyone into the social feed so people can go and take a look.

So today we'll mainly talk about the whole backstory that led up to this situation, say maybe why Xiaohongshu was actually the best app for TikTok refugee to go, and take our crystal ball and try to look into the future. And I would also like to talk a little bit about business opportunities, because after all, this is what we do on this podcast. It's also to talk about business opportunity in the cultural industry. And unfortunately, there won't be any quiz today, maybe for another time.

So first of all, just to refresh our memory, can anyone, and for the history in the future, can anyone tell us like why the app was banned in the first place?

I'm talking about TikTok, obviously. I think, Zou-Chen, because you follow closely the political questions between the US and China, maybe you'd be the best suited to answer this question. You know, there was a law passed by the last Congress of the United States, which basically says TikTok has either to be sold or to be shut down.

And there has always been this theory in the United States, a bipartisan one, which says basically TikTok, because of its origin,

by a Chinese company called ByteDance. So it could be a national security threat to the United States. And members of Congress, as well as government officials of the United States strongly believe that. And so they have made a law. But under the threat of a gun, TikTok was apparently unwilling to sell.

But things have been moving rather quickly, as I guess everyone knows. And so TikTok shut down very briefly. And then after leading up to the inauguration of the second term of Donald Trump, it got back online. So there was a bit of drama over there. But basically, it was perceived to be a threat, you know, because so many people are using it in the United States. So, you know, whether that

their data could be basically spied on by the Chinese government. That has always been a concern. But I guess I should add that China and Biden's TikTok have always insisted that that's not the case and there is no record or evidence for a real national security challenge to the United States. So just a few days ago when we decided to do this podcast, the whole drama of what happened in the last week

like rules and government policies all changed one by one. And since the inauguration, things have changed again. So now, Jim, first to go back to the first place, can you tell us like why TK managed to be such a massive company

among the American audience? Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, the thing I think to mention about TK, and we're using this acronym TK because we're on a different platform doing our live stream today, Red Note. And one thing that happens sometimes is if you use the name of one platform on a different platform, that can cause your content to be limited in terms of the folks that can see it.

And so anyhow, today we're doing this live stream on RedNote, which is this exciting new platform that has lots of individuals that are signing up from all around the world. Although conventionally, previously, it's been a much more Chinese platform in terms of the user base.

Going back to your original question about TK, the platform itself, I think the reason it became so popular is because it has such an addictive and powerful algorithm. I think one of the things that makes it different from a lot of other social media platforms is if you spend even a few minutes on TK and you'll notice that there's a lot of creators who are making content and videos that are posted, the

The platform has a really uncanny ability to understand your interests as a viewer. And on a lot of other social media platforms, for instance, like Western platforms like Facebook and others, including you have to, you know, for instance, click a button to express that you're interested in a certain type of content. You have to subscribe. You have to like you have to comment. And through those sort of proactive actions, the platform assesses that you're interested in a certain topic and pushes content to you.

But on platforms like TK, the platform can actually use your passive behavior. For example, if you pause on a specific piece of video content or if you linger even for a few additional milliseconds on a specific creator's videos, the platform, just by your pausing, just by your lingering, can analyze who you are and what you're interested in. Just if you pause on a specific piece of content for just a few extra milliseconds, it could say, well, hey, this guy paused on a cat video for, you

know, 2.5 seconds. So he probably likes cats and therefore it will make this decision that it will continue to serve up a lot more cat content to you in the future forever, unless you, you know, change your preferences.

And so I think the reason TikTok, excuse me, TK has been so popular is that it's become a place where the algorithm can push content to users that's very, very relevant to their interests. And the platform's algorithm is, you know, to my understanding, it's much, much more effective than other platforms that rely upon user active user demonstrations of behavior and interests.

And so it's like, it's a little bit like on other platforms, you kind of have to tell it what you want and then the platform will serve that up. But with TK, you can actually kind of sit back and just by means of watching this infinite scroll, the for you page, you get huge amounts of content that's served up. That's kind of perfectly engineered to be exactly the type of stuff that you, not the stuff you say you like to watch, but the stuff that you really like to watch, the stuff that you really like to engage with. Yeah. And that's why it reached such a massive, uh,

reach with over 1 billion users.

So now moving on to talk about Xia Hongshu, Red Notes. I guess we're just going to keep having to move between those two words. Now I would like for, especially for the people who I guess like outside of China never heard of it. I guess Lucy, you could take this next question, which is like, can you describe then regarding compared to TK, like what is Xia Hongshu in terms of what it is, what it does? Because it's not just like one long stream of endless video feed to scroll. Like Xia Hongshu is like kind of another type of...

the way you interact with the content and the thing. Could you describe it quickly to someone who's just never used the app? I can have a crack and Jim and Zichen can add on. So Xiao Hong Shu, a lot of people say that it is the Chinese equivalent of Pinterest and Instagram, but I would say that it's the Chinese equivalent of all of Pinterest apps.

TikTok and Instagram. It's founded in Shanghai in 2013 by two Chinese co-founders who I think both have been educated overseas. And they're actually really young entrepreneurs. They're both born in 1985, I think.

And similar to what Jim said, Xiao Hongshu also has really, really good algorithm. Like you don't need to actively click on a button and tell the app what you like. It can actually tell from your subconscious or your passive user behavior what type of content you're interested in. And Xiao Hongshu for a user like me, it's a really good place to talk about your hobbies, share it,

And you don't even have to be a big time content creator. You can just like look around or just post one or two photos. People still come and connect with you and share what they do on this specific area. The content creation hurdle is really low. You don't have to create like on TikTok. You have to be at least good at editing videos. But on Xiaohongshu, you can just simply post a photo. So you can see how this app is built for recommendations rather than

I guess rather than entertainment or story, short stories. So that's my view about Xiao Hongfu. Well, I think that Jim and Lucy have given very comprehensive introductions. I think I just want to highlight that, you know, because it seems to be a different algorithm set up than the

other, let's say, Western social media. So maybe the threshold of getting attention, of being noticed is different. You don't have to be an established opinion leader to get attention, to get hits on Xiaohongshu. So I think that actually makes it easier for just everyday users. And also, I think the content here is lifestyle. It's not very political.

And if I may add a thing or two about, you know, basically the impression of the users of Xiaohongshu or Red Note in China is typically they school more female, more urban, more highly educated, more prosperous. And that's like the background of the user and the sort of content they tend to produce here. Yeah, I would definitely agree with that because what's funny is that when I, on my own experience,

to become my own wanghong in Chinese social media. Not that Jim completely dwarfed me by his own achievement. But what's funny is that I've posted several videos on Xiaohongshu as well, and I realized the one video that worked the best was actually a video I didn't have time to write the script in Chinese and rehearse, because obviously I'm going to be slower to make a video in Chinese than in English.

And then when I posted one video in English, because I had no time, I think it was about Dune 2, the film. But then the fact is that I feel like I had much more engagement. I guess it's thanks to the urbanites, young female, people who went to study abroad. I guess some people like more that kind of video in English than in Chinese. So that was quite interesting.

Jim, anything you want to talk about Xiaohongshu or you think we can move on? Yeah, I think one other point to mention regarding the platform. One interesting thing is there have been this big movement, and we'll talk about this later, I'm sure, of folks from Western countries who've been getting set up on Red Note and starting to post and create content online.

And I think the thing that I'm seeing that's quite interesting, the reason that people originally like TK and the reason that a lot of people seem to like Red Note is

um, for instance, other social media platforms that are popular amidst Western users, for instance, Instagram, and to some extent, Facebook have become, uh, very sort of polished and professionally sort of manufactured. And people would put a very like sort of, uh, manicured and artificial image of their life on a lot of other social media platforms. Like they only show, for example, the highlights of their life. They, uh,

post every picture that's been highly modified and edited. And also that just generally there's a perception that those platforms tend to be a lot less sort of real or authentic in comparison to, for instance, TK and I think to some extent Red Note.

And so I think one of the other interesting things about, um, you know, a lot of these Western users as they're coming over to Red Note is that a lot of people seem to be responding positively to the fact that it feels a little bit less manufactured and there can be more organic and authentic conversations between creators and users. Um,

Another aspect of that specifically related to Red Note, which is distinct from TK, is there is this super active community of commenters on Red Note. And so one of the fun things about being on Red Note as a content creator is that oftentimes on other platforms, you'll make a piece of content, you'll put it out there, and yes, you'll get some comments. But actually with Red Note, oftentimes posting a piece of content, one of the things that's the most fun is having this very...

active and sort of detailed conversation with your fans who watch a piece of content or watch an image you've posted and interact with you. And so you'll see this a lot with a lot of Western creators who are posting now. Maybe they'll post just one image, but there'll be like hundreds of comments. And then you can have sub threads in the comments. So like one comment could have a

a specific post and then a lot of other people can engage and interact with that comment. So it's almost like a, you know, for Western listeners, it's a little bit like Reddit, you know, where there's like a post and then you can have comments on a piece of post. And one of the things that's really fun about Reddit as a platform, as a Western user is

It isn't just about reading the content that people post, but it's like this whole meta conversation about the content that takes place amidst the users. So I think that is actually sort of an unspoken thing about Red Note that people really like is this very active comment-based culture, which is, I think, better and more functional than TK.

Red Note and some other Chinese platforms, they have this location ping underneath all of your comments. And that is really fun to see. I think that's the difference also between Red Note and TK, which is for users from all over the world, after they comment, you can see where they're actually from.

United States, UK or, you know, they're from like different provinces in China. And that sort of adds another talk point to the user sub threats. Okay, but now moving on to the story. So basically, if you like, what, what is it like a week ago, then suddenly, yeah, there is like the TK,

and then suddenly we see people are afraid that they can't, in the US, they can't access their favorite app anymore. And suddenly a lot of them start going to Xiaohongshu. And I mean, again, like the app...

The app is in Chinese. It's basically a lot of... If there is a lot of people who went abroad, but it's still mainly a Chinese app, it's located in Shanghai. But my first question to you, and I'm not sure we can all have an answer to this, but I'm quite wondering...

Is there, like, a way to track down how did that happen? Like, who is the person who said, like, hey, guys, let's all go on Xiaohongshu. This app is amazing. Like, I'm just wondering, like, what is the snowball effect that started it all? I don't know if anyone has a theory or if maybe not a smoking gun, but, like,

What do you think happened? And it's, I mean, it went to do headlines on several media in the US as well. So it is a real story. Jim, I think if you're in the field of social media, I guess you should start. Maybe you have a bit more info than the rest of us.

Yeah, well, I'm also very interested to hear from Lucy and Sachem. But from my side, I think one thing that shouldn't be underestimated is the extent to which people in, for instance, the United States, you know, the region from which a lot of these new users have come from, is there's just this very broad...

dissatisfaction and disgust with a lot of existing, uh, social media platforms, uh, at a high level and then specifically related to like the leadership of those platforms. Um, and so for example, uh, there's been a concerted effort as far as I can understand, and perhaps, you know, Zishan can talk about this more that have been made by, uh,

Mark Zuckerberg and Meta to legislatively try and find ways to sort of eliminate or put pressure on various relevant organs to get rid of TK and to cause TK to be blocked and or banned in the sort of the U.S. market. And so because of this organic community of users in the United States who've been really interested in

really enjoying playing around on TK, it kind of created this phenomenon where because there was a perception that this guy, Zuckerberg, had been directly behind this effort to remove the app that people loved, that people were, you know, in light of this, you know, ban taking place, that people started to really want to find a way to, you know, demonstratively show that they were unhappy with existing platforms such as Instagram.

And so it's created this interesting phenomenon where almost is like a performance thing and not necessarily specifically because they want to use Red Note, but the more it's like a performative aspect of saying like, you know, there is an alternative app that is in English, which is Instagram. But however, despite the fact that that exists, it's almost like,

uh, this deliberate shunning of an existing platform because of the person who is seen as being responsible for, uh, running it. And so I've never seen something like it before, you know, I mean, there's different metaphors you can use to describe it, but I think like there is a very, uh, performative and personal aspect of, of moving to this new platform specifically as a means of like shunning or demonstrating displeasure with,

existing platforms such as Meta and Instagram. To give a bit of more context, first of all, that's funny because right now we're having a

Because we're live again on Xiaohongshu and we're having an app and some people are starting to comment. So, hi guys. Thank you for coming. You're on the Middle Earth podcast and we talk about all the TikTok refugees. Jim, I'm wondering if you... Don't hesitate to throw a question to us into the chat as we have this conversation. But Jim, in terms of... Because I always like to have numbers, context. Because it's all...

I was reading it was over 1 million people from the US came to Xiaohongshu. Do you have some latest numbers to update on that front? There's a lot of numbers getting thrown around. Some people have said some 100,000. Some people have said more than a million.

I think it's hard to say the number of like true new active installs. And then also in the world of software, there's a big difference between somebody who downloads a piece of software and then actually, you know, opens it, makes an account and engages with it, et cetera. But I think somewhere between 700,000 and a million is a reasonable estimate. And like in my own experience,

you know, anecdotal experience. It's been very weird for me to see people like my childhood friends that I haven't talked to in 15 or 20 years from the United States showing up on Red Note and engaging. And it's just like, it almost feels like a narrative violation, you know, to see a lot of folks for, you know, showing up on this platform who, in my mind, are like sort of in the internet ecosystem of, for instance, the United States. So it's quite interesting. So for real, you've met your childhood students, your childhood friends here, James?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's very, it's very strange. And I'm seeing people who, because, you know, we all live in this sort of hyper online, you know, space, I'm sure all of us are spending way too much time on social media to begin with. But I'm seeing people who are not in our little world who are just normal, you know, American folks who are signing up for Red Note and posting and making new friends, which is quite surprising to me. Yeah, I was listening to another podcast where one of the guests said he

he just accidentally saw his old classmate from 15 years ago in Nanjing and showing up here. So,

I guess that must have been, you know, something totally unexpected. And so going back to the question I just mentioned, I think I agree with Jim. Like many of the so-called refugees, for them it's a protest move. I think they are basically voting with their feet. And yeah, I don't think there is any official number from basically this particular platform that has been...

officially released. We've seen media reports citing the number which Jim has just said, something like 700,000, a million. And I would really encourage the platform to release how many weekly active users from North America that have

popped up in the past week also. But anyways, I think it's a great phenomenon. We are witnessing that North Americans and Chinese mainland residents are communicating on this app like never before. And this is certainly something fascinating.

If I can add my two cents, I want to give sort of like a from the story side of why I think Xiao Hongshu got picked as the place that young Americans come to, like you said, vote.

So I spent a lot of time on TikTok and honestly, it's not the first time Xiao Hongshu got a little bit famous overseas. A long time, I think last year, there was a content creator who is American Chinese by the name of Dr. Candice Lin. She actually makes a lot of

videos about xiao hongshu netizens and their behavior and what is trendy on xiao hongshu and she has about two million followers across instagram sorry instagram and tk and um um so one of the um videos she made that went viral was the concept of ting chuan as in like in xiao hongshu if you post yourself holding up a piece of paper writing ting chuan as in acceptive of

advice or listening to your advice. You can actually ask for fashion advice or like how to sort of like just become more confident and beautiful. And after she posted on TK,

we actually saw a flood of young TK users coming to Xiaohongshu and posting in like, you can see them trying really hard to write in Mandarin, listening to your advice. And Chinese netizens gave very direct, helpful, but also really humorous and also a little bit brutal comments on how they can sort of, you know, make themselves look more fashionable and confident.

and

that was, I think, the first wave of how Xiaohongshu got its name into the American young netizens, I would say. So Xiaohongshu, I would say for the users in TK and Instagram, it's not a very strange name. And I think that is why when there was the TK ban, a lot of people thought about coming to Xiaohongshu for the first place.

And when I saw that a lot of TK refugees coming to Xiaohongshu on day one, I actually went back to TK to check who's advocating it. And I saw some really big inferences actually making videos promoting for people to get over to Xiaohongshu. And it's just...

And Lucy, if I may stop you right there, sorry, but those people promoting Xiaohongshu, were those people Chinese, American Chinese from Chinese descent? You know what I mean? Like, who were there, those famous people trying to, you know, promote another app? They are actually not Americans of Asian descent. They are average Americans.

I think there are those trendsetters who are long-time social media users and they are forever looking for a community. And when there's a threat that the TK community could be taken away from them, they are just looking for another community. And because Xiaohongshu have gotten viral,

before because of netizens' fun comments and everything. They thought about... And Xiao Hongshu is Chinese, so they thought about Xiao Hongshu. One video I watched had 86,000 likes, which I think says the power of the persuasion, I guess. Well, I think everyone agrees it's a very organic occurrence that nobody planned for it. And also, I think there is one technical aspect is that

the threshold of actually joining this particular Chinese platform for foreigners is comparatively very low. You don't need a Chinese mainland mobile phone number to register to join Xiaohongshu, while that's often not the case with other Chinese social media platforms.

Okay, so you don't think that was a ploy, like someone at the marketing department was like, okay, we're going to put a lot of ads somewhere and then everyone's going to flock to our platform. Like apparently this is not what could have happened. But yeah, I'm also not surprised to repeat again my anecdote after what you guys shared. Like I said, like a friend of mine

from France, she came to China to travel. And at some point, like she was always asking me advice about, oh, I'm going to Chengdu, where do you think I should go? And at some point I'm like, I'm not exactly sure what you want to do on your own journey. So you know what, you go download Xia Hongshu, you just type down the name of the place of the city, and then you just go look out what space for you, because everyone has their different, you know,

they want to do different things. And I was really surprised because she barely speaks Chinese, she can barely read any a couple of characters. And after that, she was really, let's say, she was really enthusiastic about the platform. She was like, this is really great. This is well designed, I can see so many interesting things, and she couldn't speak any Chinese. Like Jim and Zichen both mentioned before, the user base on Xiaohongshu are

urbanites, well-educated, international background Chinese, and what they like and their hobby base are sort of smoothly connected with overseas users. I agree that Xiaohongshu hasn't announced official data on how many overseas users have since joined the platform.

However, Duolingo actually had an announcement that around 216% increase

on the Mandarin learners on Duolingo. So I think that could be a side note of the sheer scale of this trend so far. Yeah, yeah, of course, it has much more people learning Chinese after it's always, I guess, the question of how long the trend will move on. But then again, like Lucy, to keep on with you, so because you yourself, like you are an influencer, you are on many platforms, international one and Chinese one.

And then can you talk to us a little bit because you made a video that was seen by over 1 million people. So can you tell us what the video was about and your interaction with all the people who looked at it and liked it and commented? I'm mostly just on Instagram and TikTok. And on day one, when I saw TK refugees flooding into Xiaohongshu, I just quickly made a video just to highlight that

watching the warm and wholesome interactions on Xiaohongshu makes me realize that this is what the world should be like. So just a very warm sort of video, only 13 seconds, just highlighted, let's say,

father from US, he posted just a simple photo of him holding his baby. And a lot of parents in China actually commented posting just a photo of them with their babies. And also an American firefighter posted himself in the artwork.

And another, the top comment was a Chinese firefighter posting his photo. And they can't even speak each other's language, but it's just a simple photo exchange of I'm doing what you're doing. I also have a family, look at my baby.

And I just posted that and it's interesting to see because I posted on both Instagram and TikTok at the same time and the reactions from both platforms are just very different. On TK, it was an instant hit. It went viral instantly and the comment section was

just very heartwarming. Everybody's saying, oh, like I really am happy to talk to ordinary people in China for the first time. And I can't believe how much I didn't know about China. But on day one, after this video got posted on Instagram,

I had a lot of what we say in Australia but heard comment of like, oh, what about this about China? What about that about China? And I didn't expect the comment to be so different, like on IG so negative, but on TK so warm. And I just want to quickly share to end the top comment.

with more than 10K likes. The average American people have more in common with the average Chinese people than with Trumpet Mask. That's a nice one. Okay, yeah, to keep on to that heartwarming story. So I'm wondering for the two other guests, like what is like the kind of the meme of the one thing that you like the most?

So I don't want to rain on the parade of positivity, but I think that... Oh, don't worry. There is a bit of negativity I want to throw later, but... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like, you know, I like many people. I'm, you know, an American who has lived and worked in China for decades.

15 years, uh, I've seen a lot of animosity between the countries at a national level. And so these individual interactions between normal people in, uh, China and the States, uh, absolutely are very wonderful to see. Um, and so, you know, it's mirroring something that I've seen in my own life, which is when I bring over my family, uh, or friends from the United States to China, the experience that they have, uh,

is usually much more positive than, you know, what they might have expected before they had the opportunity to physically come in person. And, you know, having the chance and opportunity as Americans to have these kind of close interactions with folks in China and visit places in China and experience what it's like to live in China, that obviously is very eye-opening. But even just the things that are happening now in Red Note, where you have like a lot of Americans who

perhaps they have seen one depiction of China in mainstream media, but then when they can actually see how normal folks actually live, if they see cute pictures of their dogs and their cats and their hamsters, if they can see the foods they're making and the lives they're living, you know, I think those types of things can be very eye-opening. And also like,

even very specific things. There's a Chinese dish called, I think it's called jidanggeng, right? It's like a custard, almost like a non-sweet, savory sort of egg custard that is like a very light Chinese dish. It's steamed eggs, basically. And that has become the one I've enjoyed watching the most because it's a food that I've always liked. It's like a low-calorie, really tasty, savory Chinese dish where you have like steamed eggs. And that has been one where a lot of folks...

overseas in america have started making their own zidang gong and cooking it and talking about how to cook it and making it um and you know there are those types of person-to-person things that i really like um but one just caveat that i will make is i think at this current moment we are at a honeymoon phase you know we're in the miyuechi like this is the early phase where like there is this a lot of initial positive interaction and euphoria when a lot of people first get on the platform

And the platform also is pushing a lot of these people to the top of the feed. And so if you're an American who perhaps, you know, in the past, you'd only gotten like, you know, five to 10 likes or comments on your individual posts. And then you come over to Red Note and then you have like 500 people telling you your dog is really cute. Of course, you're going to say, well, I love the platform, right? But I don't necessarily think that this level of, uh,

you know, enthusiasm will continue long term. So I think like we're now, this is probably like the peak level of positivity. However, I'm not sure if this is like sustainable for a long period of time. I think James and Lucy have shared quite some, you know, very touching episodes of, you know, the memes. I think they do reflect, you know, first of all,

like the Chinese and the North Americans, they are really curious about each other's lives. There is this genuine interest in finding out what exactly life looks like on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

And secondly, I think that the interactions between them show, you know, the understanding of each other has been unfortunately really limited. So people are learning more about each other and, you know, slashing all the misunderstandings in the past or getting rid of the stereotypes. And the third thing I'd like to, that, you know, I've come to think of is that

Actually, the sort of interactions, you know, what kind of food you like, you know, if you have paid your cat tax, by which means basically showing off pictures of your very cute pets, animals at home, these sort of small details

they are actually very attractive for everyday people. You don't have to talk about politics, big stuff. And these things, the details of life, the joys, the pressure, and even the sufferings. And I think this is where maybe I think I'm more optimistic or at least I'm more hopeful than Jim is. I think these small things...

have more strengths than people typically assume that these subjects, I hope, at least, can sustain the sort of momentum and interest in strengthening these interactions simply because there is just so little

mutual knowledge of each other between the Chinese and the Americans. And even how to make a very particular sort of dish can get so many views and attention. And yeah, I think there are a lot of hopes for these sort of people-to-people exchanges. And I think also all those people-to-people exchanges will definitely be

if I may, has been maybe a little bit more helpful in terms of, you know, like potentially bring tourists over to China or make the country more understood that any of the state media work for the past 15 years. But that's just my personal take on that. Yeah, regarding the positivity and the negativity. Also, yeah, there was one thing I thought sometimes it seems like over positive. Like, for example, there is a video of a guy called the liberal trucker

And in his video, he basically says like, oh, I've seen people in China. So he seems really positive with all the interaction that he has. But I felt the one thing that was weird is that he, this guy, the liberal trucker and so many other Americans who go onto the platform, they often say some things like, oh, I feel people in China are more happy and they are not stressed by life. They don't have to work three jobs like us, which

Which I guess is true, but for example, it seems they don't understand the concept of Nezhaan. Like the fact that after all, still in China, you had so many internet companies and places where people have to overwork a lot, things like that. Then when people compare the price of eggs in China versus the US, I'm still wondering, sure, you pay much less your eggs in China, but your salary is also not the same exactly. Maybe you...

don't pay one dollar for an egg but at the same time like how much you make per hour things like this so I feel sometimes yeah it seems like they don't get the whole picture I totally agree with that I think you know the demographics on the Chinese mainland backbone users for xiaohongshu as we said at the very beginning school urban highly educated you know high income Chinese I'm not sure if there is a

you know comprehensive report about uh you know basically the the income level of these uh chinese users answer hongshu but i'd say they are not just a middle uh class they are like high uh higher middle class and uh so they are uh i would say they are not representative of the average

And again, to all the people listening to us on the chat, you can throw a question. We'll try to answer it.

Lucy, you wanted to say something? Yeah, thanks. I was going to add that I agree with Jim. I think it is a trend. I don't know how long this honeymoon period will go on because I can already see some conflict, shadow lurking in the background. For example, Chinese international students overseas, they have actually expressed some

distaste on how foreigners are so welcomed on Xiaohongshu because their own experience living overseas is actually they have to cope a lot of microaggression and quite a lot of, let's say, racism when they lived abroad.

So they were saying to their Chinese counterparts living in China, why are you so welcoming to these guys? Like we were not treated so fairly. And also the other story I saw is an African-American girl started to post on Xiaohongshu about the meaning behind their hairstyle. And she specifically said that we don't want other people to copy our hairstyle.

And this is, from my understanding, a very domestic American or like an overseas type of problem. But the Chinese users in her notes is just very confused. Like in China, we love for everybody to try our food, our clothes. But you are here introducing your hairstyle, but you don't want other people to copy it. And why is that?

after this honeymoon period, we have to actually touch on real issues. So I'm sort of like curious about how this whole thing will unfold. However, there is another heartwarming comment that said, no matter how the world will be in the future, let's just remember this moment of genuine connection for future reference.

Yeah, that's also why I wanted to record this podcast is because after all those years in China, finally, you have like something like really super over positive and people to people, you know, conversation, things like that. And yeah, the same thing with Jim, like each time I brought my friends and family to China, like they I think they were most of the time having a little bit of apprehension, like not really sure. And then each time they left over, I wouldn't say over the moon, maybe not. And I put it this way. Yeah.

But, you know, like at least really impressed and interested by the whole thing of the country, whatever they saw. Now moving on a little bit more about the business part of it, because after all, it's a podcast, which is supposed to be about the cultural industry. Jim, I'm wondering, are you being...

sought after right now? Are thousands of brands coming to you and say, dude, you got to help us open our Xiaohongshu account right now because we can see a market opening? That's a really good question, you know, sort of regarding like what folks and brands are doing and where the opportunities exist in this new

space. So, I mean, I think the first thing that I'll say is like at the platform level, my understanding is also, although there has been a big organic trend of folks signing up individually to go on Xiaoshu as Americans, there actually also has been to some extent effort from the platform itself to onboard creators from, you know, the Western markets to the platform. So there definitely has been some amount of

uh, you know, and there's media reports about this, about, about, you know, a concerted effort that has been made by the platform to go out to agencies and companies and sign up individual, uh, content creators to get onto the platform. And this isn't just on a red note. This is also happening across other platforms, uh, in China. Um,

Um, secondly, I think where I see the opportunity, you know, from my perspective actually might not be, uh, for helping brands because brands have sophisticated tools to hire individual influencers. But I think there is actually ironically a big opportunity to, um,

work with the creators themselves. And so I've had actually a huge amount of individual Westerners approach me and say, hey, you know, I've seen you on Red Note creating content. How do I do it? How do I verify my account? How do I do things such as, you know, for instance, live streaming as we're doing now? How do I design? Yeah, thank you, Jim, because without you, we could not we could not have done this. So thanks to your verified account.

Yeah. So I think that where I see the opportunity for people who are listening to our podcast, if you're in the social media spaces, could you perhaps become, you know, what tools, what software tools, what...

services and support can be offered to Western individuals who want to get set up and operate on these platforms. That's where I've seen a lot more requests come across my desk and a lot more opportunity. Because one thing that I can say as a Westerner who has been creating content on Chinese social media for five years is

there's a lot of, you know, there's a really good Chinese word called Qian Gui Zi, like unspoken rules. And there are a lot of rules that exist, some of which are made explicit, some of which are not explicit about what you need to do and not do if you're active in the Chinese social media space. And so if you're a person who,

can, or if you're an organization that can help these, you know, foreigners operate in the space, then you have a lot of opportunity. One other small thing I'll say that just makes me laugh, and I don't know if this will be relatable for our audiences. In Chinese, there's a word that's often used to describe foreigners, which is called a laowai. You know, a foreigner, literally laowai is a sort of expression that means old, but can also just be a placeholder. And wai means, you know, external, like the old external or the person from outside the

And so in China, if you walk down the street as a person of obvious non-Chinese heritage, you'll often hear this word, laowai, laowai. And so the interesting word that's come out just recently for, for instance, people like me and also for you, Aladdin, is there's a word laonei, which means like the old internal person that people used to describe a foreigner who has already been operating in the Chinese ecosystem for a long time. And so it's interesting because there's a lot of, you know, supposed laonei like me and you, Aladdin, who already have been on Xiaohongshu for decades.

years or have already been in China and operating on Chinese social media and learning to speak Chinese.

And a lot of those people have made funny videos and made posts and comments where they're like, hey, you know, hey, I've been here in China all along. What's up with you guys? You know, all these Chinese netizens being fans of these, all these new shiny foreigners. Like, hey, we're the old foreigners who've been here all along and we speak Chinese and we know what it's like here and we know what's going on and getting like sort of emotionally hurt because they feel like they haven't been appropriately, you know, acknowledged by the people on Chinese social media. So that's just a fun thing that I've seen on the side is like,

foreigners who are already here who already have been on these platforms who feel like hey you know why are you guys giving all this attention to these new content creators when we've been here all along and by the way we can speak Chinese and by the way we live in China etc I gotta admit like I see some people just putting some random video like hi hi guys I'm Bob from Nebraska and then suddenly they get one I know thousands of likes and they show their cats and you're like hey

I've done this effort of learning the language and no one really paid attention. But yet at the same time, we already come from a place where like, you know, recently I just did like a small collab regarding a documentary being put on Tencent.

I think one of the reasons I got hired to do this gig is because I'm white, let's be honest. I do have like a few thousand followers because I talk mainly about movies and storytelling on my Chinese social app and I'm actively going to start having a YouTube channel. But I feel already from the get-go, I come from slightly a place of privilege because we already have some kind of advance. But yeah, it's funny to then see other people get another even more

uh bigger privilege that uh that what we can have but yeah i have a friend um well an acquaintance let's put it this way he lived in china same like i think we could definitely call him uh laone and he or a jung wo tong and he has he studied in beijing then he moved on and he worked uh and then he had like his uh and then he went back to the states like i think like a year ago or something and um

the fact is like he posted things on Xia Hongshu like a few pictures things like that and he had like a few hundreds if not 1000 followers and

And then he started and then he posted one video saying like, wow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And later on, like I rechecked his account yesterday and he had any gain like more than 50,000 fans with just posting like a few video of him speaking Chinese and even recycling old videos. And now he has like an official agency taking care of him. So, yeah, I feel like they are.

yeah kind of a small boom and maybe some opportunities uh coming up i think we we can end slowly the podcast because i think jim has to leave us in 15 minutes but i'm just wondering if you take your crystal ball what's like the how this thing is gonna move on i personally i just think like it's at least it brought a new community on people but i think like one year down the road

I'm not so sure we're going to still have 1 million users from the US who are still on Xiaohongshu. But I'm sure like we're going to have some nice coverage in six months. Well, Americans don't have much vacation, but the one who can come, I'm sure we're going to have a nice coverage in the news in the coming months of like people. TikTok refugee who actually came to China to try Kung Fu and things like this.

So yeah, how do you see the future? Lucy, I guess you can start. There's also a user who jumped in to ask this question as well. BG6SZD said the same thing. What's going to happen next? And are people going to go back to TikTok? There's some questions in the chat about this as well. So sorry, Lucy, after you.

Thanks, Jim. I just want to quickly comment on what Aladin said about new shining foreigners. I think from a content creation point of view, the Lao Ne foreigners know a lot about China. So the content that you guys make are more sort of complex and interesting.

I guess a lot of the users coming home from a whole day of work or study, they just want to be entertained. And sometimes shorter and simpler content actually work better. So if you just come and be like, oh, this is my cut, maybe it's easier for them to interact rather than, oh, this movie. Sorry, I love this movie. What's it about the background? Like they actually have to sit down and be able to comprehend it. And it's like maybe another small lecture.

from my point of view, when I create content on TikTok, I see the same thing. I started out trying to make very complex videos introducing Chinese culture, but then at the end, I found that that 10 second video actually hit 1 million. So it's just

Well, but that's that. So taking a crystal ball to the future, I agree with Jim and Zichen that I think this is the trend. I think American users, I'm not sure what's the longevity of them on Xiaohongshu, especially because TK is back home. But like the commenter on our live stream said, another 75 days, let's just wait and see what's going to happen after another 75 days, because now TikTok is temporarily back.

A lot of people are coming back to TK, but a lot are still staying in Xiaohongshu. I think my take is no matter what happens in the future, I'm sure Xiaohongshu after this will just be more international because it's not just the Americans who came to Xiaohongshu. You see a lot of people from the UK, from other parts of Europe in general, and also a lot of people from China.

all other parts of the world, they come to Xiaohongshu with the American T.T. refugees. And I'm sure they'll stay because it's just very entertaining here. So I think Xiaohongshu will be international, more international, but

how long the bulk of American users will stay. I want to see after the 75 days. And also for the business opportunity, I think it's just very timely that China has just extended the 144-hour free visa transit to 240 hours. So this is just a golden opportunity, a great coincidence that this happened. And I hope to see more inbound

Sure. I think like, I'm sure, I mean, you have read like the Chinese media commentaries and even from the Chinese foreign ministry, which basically says, well, you know, what has been happening on this platform, so Hong Shuo Red Note is something very encouraging.

I don't know what's going to happen in six days or 75 days, but I think the general takeaway, almost a consensus by everyone, is that the...

the interactions in themselves have their own energy and this is something that should be encouraged. And, you know, I haven't checked it by myself, but, you know, these very popular Chinese, another Chinese popular video platform is alleged to have like cut the threshold of registering on their platform to make it easier for foreigners to get on Chinese social media.

I mean, if this can be the takeaway of the insight of everything that has happening is to make it easier on these Chinese social media platform, it's going to be better for everyone, for foreigners to have better understanding of China, for the Chinese to interact with foreigners, to...

in the Chinese official terms, or in "Jian Hao Zhong Guo Gu Shi" telling the Chinese stories well. I think cutting the barricades, cutting down the obstacles for communications, for people to people exchanges,

that is definitely the silver lining, even if Americans are returning to their other platforms. Yeah, common destiny for shared humanity. Everyone go for it. Jim, you're the last one for the final take. I think the points that Lucy and Sicheng made are both very, very good ones. And I agree with aspects of what each of them said. I think one aspect that is perhaps not been spoken to is that

Basically here in China, you have a generation of entrepreneurs who are extremely quick and fast and nimble. And when any new trend or topic that emerges, you'll often see that a huge volume of entrepreneurs and individuals will become interested in it. And oftentimes you'll see a huge amount of entrepreneurs putting out products and

creating business solutions in that space almost immediately. So my guess is in light of this trend of what has happened with this huge amount of foreigners on Red Note is that there's probably already hundreds or thousands of enterprising Chinese individuals in mainland China and overseas who are trying to create

tools and business solutions related to helping foreigners get set up. And this could either be platforms to help people get on Red Note. It could even be new social apps that are designed to allow this type of communication and collaboration and cultural exchange between folks in China and around the world. So my guess is whether it's via Red Note or whether it's via these other applications and scenarios, I also agree that there will be a lot more of this type of

people-to-people exchange that will come out in the future. But I guess I don't necessarily think it will be in this platform. I do think that Red Note, if they want to kind of capture this traffic, they will need to move quickly to create

you know, tools and processes and clear standards, especially like this is a really important thing. If anyone from Red Note ever listened to our podcast, I would encourage you strongly to make clear standards for foreign users about how to operate on the platform and what sort of content can be allowed on the platform and best practices to exist on the platform. Because if the platform isn't able to do that and then people find themselves being

or shadow banned or removed, it could create a scenario where people move on to a different application. But no matter where they end up, I, I'm very bullish and optimistic that this type of people to people exchange will increase. Uh, the question for me is, is that going to be on red note or is it going to be somewhere else? Well, thank you so much everyone for your time. Uh, well, we're just going to wrap it there. Uh, thank you. This was, I gotta say, it was really fun to do like a live show, uh,

we've done a couple of live show offline like on a proper with a stage but here it's like the whole it's online I guess maybe I will try to do this a little bit more often now that we have like more people speaking English on the platform and yeah I want to you know interact with such kind of topic so thank you all of you guys for coming today thank you for the audience thank you for the people who came to join the live chat like apparently there's been other over 2,000 people who came I'm not sure how many people stayed until now

But at least glad to have you until the end, dear listeners of the show. I guess you liked it. And if you do, you can help the Middle Earth Podcast to grow by recommending us to your friends. That would be a nice thing to do. Also, if you're impressed by this show, guest, and you need to find an interviewee for your next documentary piece, for example, or you're a researcher in China, you can definitely give us a call. Today's episode was produced and edited by Alain D'Infaray. And I hope to see you next time, guys, everyone. Thank you so much. That was really fun. So hopefully...

see you all let's all hit 1 million views on our upcoming video thanks a lot bye-bye thank you thank you lucy bye guys thank you bye

Looks like our listeners are still doing their dishes. We're really committed to their workout. For sure. Since we're still here, if you want to learn more about Chinese society, culture, and language, you should head to theworldofchinese.com and follow us on WeChat, TikTok, and Instagram, where you'll discover an impressive collection of award-winning in-depth stories and fun, informative videos, as well as amazing podcasts. Of course. Well, until the next issue then.