A Granny, A Nurse & A Secret Sex Worker For 20 Years! Uncut with Dr Hilary Caldwell
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This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. Now when it comes to topics like pleasure and sex, we all have very different biases and shames that we carry with us. And I think it's really difficult for us to distance ourselves from the conditioning of the societal values that we've grown up with.

But I think this episode is definitely one that's going to make you evaluate your thoughts on sex, shame and empowerment. Joining the podcast today is sexologist and academic Dr. Hilary Caldwell. Hilary was a sex worker and is a sex worker. However, it was in secret for 20 years. She kept this as a double lie from her friends and also her family. She didn't have any of the stereotypes that seem to surround women for their reasons of getting into the sex work industry. And she certainly didn't need to be saved from it.

Hillary has used her experiences in the industry alongside her research to unpack why we feel so much internal shame when it comes to sex. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Laura. This is a subject that

I think our generation, when we grew up, it was taboo. It was very hush-hush. You didn't know anyone that had done it. You wouldn't hear anyone talk so openly about it. I think it still is in a lot of ways, though. I think we're, you know, we've made some headway, but it's definitely still, it still carries with it a lot of like question marks when people do talk about it openly. It is. And even though, and I'm sure we're going to get into it, even though we have moved forward in leaps and bounds as a society and as a generation, I think there are still a lot of people that

are open to hearing about it, but then still hold their biases. So that's why I think these conversations are so great. We're going to get into it all, but first we're going to kick off with your most embarrassing story. Do you have an accidentally unfiltered?

My problem as a sex worker is choosing which embarrassing unfiltered story to tell you. But here's one that's fairly benign. So one day I was expecting a client and I was wearing this little purple negligee. It was nothing else. And I thought I heard them and I poked my head out the front door and it locked behind me. Then suddenly,

my client had to help me go around the back, which meant going like past a really busy street in my little underwear and then around the back. And then he had to lift me up to the tiny little laundry window and push my bottom in the window. He ended up putting his head on my bottom to push me in. And so he got a real view before he'd even paid, I might add.

A little extra something, something. I have so many questions because I think people have an understanding or an idea of like why someone might get into sex work or the type of person that might get into sex work. Like, right, these are the biases that we all live with. Where were you at in life and what was going on in your life when you started to entertain the idea? And what was it that kind of made you go, okay, this is something that I want to explore? Well, at the time I was a single mum with four kids and I was nursing part-time, but

nursing is shift work around the clock and putting four kids in childcare around the clock was really expensive and hard work and I wasn't getting ahead. And so I was feeling quite desperate for money and I didn't want to work more because then I wouldn't see my kids more and have to pay more childcare. So it was kind of like a zero sum. So I was having a lot of fun in my life. I was going to swingers parties and I was really learning about sex for myself in a way that I'd never done before.

And I met a sex worker and I didn't ask her anything about her life, but just the idea of sex work just suddenly came to me. And I didn't know any other sex workers. I didn't ask for any help, which I do not recommend. But I just suddenly thought, well, this will help me get out of trouble. And it really did. And not just that, but...

I mean, I loved it from the first day. And I think the reason I loved it so much was because I'd had all these stereotypical ideas about sex workers being victims and clients being really rude and like making you do things you didn't want to do. And that was just so not what happened. Like the clients, they wanted me to have a really nice time because that was going to make them have a really nice time. And then I realized, oh, I'm allowed to enjoy this

this. Well, then I let myself enjoy this. And, you know, I had all these orgasms. Orgasms make you feel amazing and powerful and feeling like that at work was something for it. So I just, I just loved it from the day one. And I think it was because I had all of these negative stereotypes that I was comparing my experience to. Yeah. And yeah, just, it was a really good job. It still is a really good job for me. I think it's important.

And it's amazing that you have had those experiences, but there's obviously a lot of sex workers that go into sex work because they feel pressured or this is the environment they feel like they have to go in to survive and they don't have just positive experiences. So I do want to say that as well. And it's amazing that you have had incredible experience. Yeah, that is absolutely true. I think everyone enters sex work for money. How desperate you are for that money has a lot to do with how vulnerable you are to exploitation. Yeah.

But the answer is not to stop sex work. The answer is to support people who are poor. Yeah, 100%. So when you say that you were like, okay, I wish I asked for help but I didn't. You didn't consult anyone in the industry. So then how did you physically start sex working? Was it something that we see in the movies and you've just been doing it for 20 years? Did you have to go to an area or a club that was known for it? Did you join a website? Do you join like an industry? How does it work from literally from go to woe?

Well, I wish I'd just walked into a brothel and said, how do I do this? So I wish I'd gone to my local peer group org and said, how do you do this? But I didn't really do those things. I talked to a friend about doing it at their house. So I rented a house.

and I put an ad in the paper because it was nearly 25 years ago and that's what we did 25 years ago. So, yeah, I just kind of thought I'd do it my own way. I was almost scared of sex workers because that stereotypical idea told me that sex workers would be kind of nasty people or something. You know, I was scared. But I was scared of sex workers rather than scared of things that maybe I should have been scared of.

like maybe my own ability to draw my boundaries or know what it is that I wanted. Like I did have to learn the hard way. And once I got involved with sex working communities, I realized I wasn't different than other sex workers. We all do the work for money and whether or not we enjoy it, it's really immaterial. Like if we are

doing a job. So, and it doesn't make your experience better or worse if you are enjoying it or not. It's just a job. It's also interesting when you say that even for you, you were like, maybe they're scary or there's, it's because we very much other it. We put it into a box on the other side and we have an impression of something. But for the most, for most people, most people have no understanding of it because we have no exposure to it.

You said that you had to learn the hard way how to implement boundaries and what it is that you did or didn't want. I can only imagine that the way that you went about getting into the industry does expose you in a way to things that could be unsafe or to learning an industry kind of without having any guidelines or rules around it. Like how do you price it? How do you say no when you're in a situation where you're one-on-one with someone? What did those learning experiences look like for you?

pretty much like you just described. I did press myself too low when I first started because I didn't do enough research. And it was actually clients who taught me more about the industry in the beginning because most clients are aware of who's around. And when they see a new person, they're just really interested because...

you know, new and different. And so I got a lot of very experienced clients who taught me. Not all of them taught me in positive ways. You know, sometimes my boundaries were overstepped. Sometimes I felt uncomfortable. I have felt scared. But yeah, clients did teach me at first and then other sex workers when I got going.

When you first started this, going from working as a nurse, being a mum of four kids, being a single mum, I can imagine that you were also struggling with your own thoughts and conceptions around this.

You did it for so long in secret, didn't share your experiences with your family, with your friends. What was that like when you finally came out and told your family, told the people around you that this is what you have been doing for an occupation for so long? That is such a great question because I've been out as a sex worker for 154 days now. Congratulations. Thank you. I have quite a good perspective on that process.

So yes, at first I kept it a secret to absolutely protect my children and myself for our safety. When people know you're a sex worker, they think you're disposable and worth less than other women. So that is definitely a safety issue about keeping sex work a secret. What was it like for me? I was very good at compartmentalizing. So one day I'd be a whore and I'd be having so much fun and role playing and just letting my personality go. And then

The next day I would be a nurse and a mother and I'd be in the kitchen. So compartmentalisation and that's something I found has been really quite difficult for me in my process of coming out is like breaking down those internal walls that were in there. Actually, the response from people has been so positive.

that I feel very validated. Yeah, it's been lovely actually. Telling my kids was funny though. I did tell them about a year ago so they had time to prepare and they didn't know. They're all in their, I have four daughters in their 30s. They all have kids. I'm just a granny from the suburbs, P.S. LAUGHTER

I love being a granny and I love being suburban. And, you know, it's such a juxtaposition. There's such a tension between being a granny and being a sex worker. But really now that I've all come together and in this one person, it all makes sense to me. But yeah, my kids were, they were really surprised, but yeah,

they were really surprised but they supported me fully and and our relationships have improved so much since it's been great I imagine it I'm just trying to picture my like because I'm in my 30s I'm trying to picture if my mom came to me now and she was like surprise I've been a sex worker for 20 years I'd be shooketh like I imagine that would have been no judgment but you'd be like whoa like how did you keep that a secret like when you just think your mom's got like Batman you like Batman yeah

That was exactly it. They were so more surprised that I'd kept a secret than that the secret was that I was a sex worker. But also amazing of you to have that insight and the understanding of not the fact that it's

you know, it's not that you're internalizing it as shameful, but you realize the risk, the inherent risk, because those risks that are involved are subject to the fact that there is still this societal stigma around it. And protecting your family from that, not just protecting yourself, but protecting your kids, protecting everybody who's important to you and creating a safe household is something that's really admirable as well. Because I think that it's so easy to think that the only reason why you're not telling everyone is because like, oh God, what's everyone going to think of me?

But there's so many more layers to it than that. Yeah. But, you know, part of the reason I stayed nursing, I stayed nursing for another 10 years after I started sex work because I was always thinking, well, if I got outed as a sex worker, at least I could say I was a nurse.

Like that's the living embodiment of the Madonna-whore dichotomy. And I just really felt like if I could challenge people with I'm a nurse, I'm a good person, I'm a sex worker, I'm a good person. I felt that was, you know, I kept doing a job that was heading my back in and actually breaking my spirit in many ways and costing me more to go to work. I kept doing it.

doing that because it gave me that balance to my whore. Yeah, that was part of my internalized shame, I have to say now. Hilary, what made you want to get into the research side of things? Because I think that's something that sets you so apart in this industry is not only are you, I mean, not only are you doing the practical work, you're also doing the theoretical side of it. But

When you kind of got to a point in your career that you realized, okay, well, so much of this is so impacted by the shame and the societal expectations and standards around sex that you wanted to move into doing sexology. You've studied it so thoroughly. Like what was it that made you want to look at that side of this industry? Well, the sexology was a no brainer because I just really love sex and want to know everything about it. I was

I was quite frustrated because I feel like sex work gave me far more knowledge than a course in a master's course in sexology. But going into research was interesting because I was asked to go into research. And at first I thought that meant that I was smart, like I was flattered. But now I know that if you complete a research project, the unit gets money from the government. So now I know that you get asked to do research so you can be a cash cow.

But that wasn't my real motivation. It was really Dr. Eleanor Jeffries, who is a sex working academic. And I actually know at least 40 academics in Australia who are sex workers and

So it's not like I'm very unique, but it's a great club to be in. So Dr Eleanor Jeffries said to me at a sex working event that, you know, there's a lot of bad research about sex workers that starts from the premise that we're all victims, like what scale of victim are you, you know, because no woman would choose that. And there's a lot of research like that, which is very damaging for us. And so Eleanor said, well, you know, the only way to really understand

combat this is to infiltrate the system. And so I felt like a sex worker is the best undercover agent. I should go in there and infiltrate academia and do my own research. And that was really my motivation. What has been the breadth of experience that you have provided or services you've provided in terms of

Did you jump straight into sex or did you start with like a girlfriend experience or did you start just escorting where you would go to parties with people or you know, we hear a lot of people that sort of edge in pun not intended. There's so many gateway drugs into sex work. There's so many gateway drugs, yeah.

Yeah, well, for me, I just kind of thought from the beginning, actually, I incorrectly thought that I'm not a good actress. So I should be myself. But actually, I know I'm a good actress because I've done enough role plays to enjoy that part of myself. But I wanted to do the girlfriend experience because it felt congruent to me. And Bella Green, a beautiful sex worker, wrote a book. She's not with us anymore, but she wrote a beautiful book, Happy Endings. She's a great actress.

she wrote. And in her book, it was a memoir about her entry into sex work. And the first part of the book is quite sad because she's trying to be this sex worker that doesn't really suit her. And you're kind of thinking, oh gosh, this isn't very good. But then she realizes because she has this other personality as a comedian. And when a client comes to her, especially because they know that she's a

So I can be funny on the job. And then she just became a comedian on the job and got known for that. And she loves sex work so much more when she realized she could do it in a way that suited her. And that's how I did it. The girlfriend experience suits me because I've always been very invested in relationships with people like even us now or, you know, or long-term relationships. Like I love people and I love people.

forming relations with people and learning from people. And so the girlfriend experience really suited me in that way. And also I hate putting on makeup. I hate washing clothes. You know, I just do the laziest things possible because that's what a girlfriend would do, right? Yeah.

It's interesting though, because you say that you, you know, you care for people that you are, you know, invested in relationships and invested in the connection, which I also think is so evident in the fact that you're also a nurse, you know, both roles, whether it's sex working or nursing fundamentally come down to caring for people. When you were doing your own research and when you were unpacking the ways in which you show up in your life, do you see the link in there? So the psychology behind how these things kind of interconnect? Yeah.

I definitely do. I think estrogen has something to do with it. No, I actually think that the way women are socialized from a young age to be carers, I think I've really done that well. I've really taken on that role of caring for others. I love children. I love my grandchildren. I did childcare before I did nursing. I did counseling before I did nursing.

So, yeah, I've always wanted to be the helper and the carer. And actually when I started sex work, I realised I could help people more doing sex work than nursing. Because I don't know, Brittany, you could probably remember you finish a busy shift and sometimes you think, I didn't help anyone today. I didn't make...

that bed. I didn't sign off on that form. I forgot to do that chart. You think of all the things you didn't do. But after sex work, I think, gee, that client, he really softened his guts up. He really spilled his guts when we finished because he had that discussion for him that was really meaningful. And those post-coital moments, they're really vulnerable for all genders.

And it's a great opportunity to really get into someone's head and to influence people. So I actually felt like I helped people more in sex work than any other job I've ever done.

Having said that, what do you think you've learned the most over the years with the type of clientele that you have coming through? Like what would people be most surprised to hear about your clientele? Having had lots of genders as clients, I think people would be most surprised to hear about the vulnerability that men feel because, you know, they're not allowed to show that if they're going to be masculine and buying sex is not

A sexual experience is kind of very masculine in terms of what people think, but it's actually quite a vulnerable place to be, to express what you want. That's why it's so good for women to know what they want and to ask for it. But for men, I feel like, you know, a lot of men cry a lot after sex. And some of them will say that they really just love them.

love their wives. They love their wives so much and they don't want to be having sex with someone else, but their wives have like shut up shop for whatever reason and they don't understand. Some of them hate their wives because they're not having sex with them. But you know, for either case, I can say in that post-coachal moment when they're so receptive to new ideas, I can tell them women are socialized about sex in such a different way than men. We're shamed about sex for

before we're even born. Like we're not allowed to be too sexy when we're two and we're dancing to music. You know, we are shamed out of being sexual in our bodies in a way that really stays with us. We are rewarded for withholding sex. We are rewarded for being so-called virgins. We are rewarded. So why would we then enter a relationship and have sex forever with someone who doesn't put the garbage out? Like...

You know, I don't think men really understand en masse that women have such a different experience around what sex is for us and how we're treated because of sex. I don't think men really understand. And when I can tell them, it's not her fault she doesn't have sex with you.

It's not her fault. I don't know anything about the situation, but why would she want to have sex with you when sex has been told to her as bad all this time in her life? And maybe you've got young daughters and you're trying to stop them from having sex with randoms or be exposed to perhaps dangerous men. Like it's always been, sex for women has always been a danger.

So why would they suddenly change? And why after so many years would they still want to be doing this thing when they've never really been able to choose sex for themselves? They've always had sex done to them. There's also so many more layers to it than just this idea of it being a danger. But like, I have friends who don't want to have sex with their husbands because their husbands are fucking lazy. And there's no doubt that they're not aroused or they're not

they don't come home and feel like, oh, wow, that man who does absolute jack shit all to help me with the kids. I really want to stick it in. You know what I mean? Like there's so many layers to how our society sets up the traditional roles of what women play within a household and men play within the household. And at the end of the day, it affects everyone and it affects all of our sex lives. Like no one's happy with the way that patriarchy has set up the household dynamic. Do you think you have more clients that are married and in relationships or unmarried?

Good question. I would say it's about 50-50. I mean, I feel like that's one of the big things that people seem to get so arced up about is that there's like this injustice to sleep with a married man. But it's also like I have no prejudice against someone who is on the receiving end of that because it's like you didn't marry, you were not in that wedding, like you didn't make those vows. How do you kind of combat that type of criticism? Criticism like that comes from the person criticising and, you know, the other woman gets criticised

Like in my private life, I've entered lots of poly relationships and thruffles and all sorts of good times that I've had. But I've also been accused of being the other woman many times. And just as you said, I didn't choose to get married at that time and be that person. Why does the other woman, like that is just an age old trick to make men

men never be in trouble and women always be in trouble why should women be shamed for sex and men not like that is how I think about it for myself I think the idea that sex is so sacred I wish people would talk about it more I wish couples would have each other's blessings yeah to go elsewhere because you don't own someone else's sexuality even if you marry them and if you've made an agreement and it's

with words, then that's what you're doing is betraying someone's trust. But if you make an agreement that one person doesn't want to have sex anymore but they don't own the other and the other can go elsewhere, then that would be the ideal situation, I think, if that were the case.

I'd love to talk about what relationships have looked like for you over the last 20 years since you've entered the sex work industry because I imagine it would be more difficult to find someone that you can have a proper relationship with that is also completely okay with you living this other life. You know, it's not an everyday thing that we see. What's it been like for you? Have you had relationships over this time and how have you managed them? Yeah, I've had heaps of relationships over this time and they're very fluid. I prefer relationships with women at this point

stage of my life, which I think is actually more difficult to find a woman okay with my work. I do have to do a lot of work, unless my partner is a sex worker, which shortcuts a lot of bullshit. But you do have to make sure that someone's not going to shame you for something you've done. And because society tells everyone that sex is bad and that sex workers are bad, there are people who are going to be

really destructive if you get into a relationship with them. And it is difficult to know at first whether someone's going to have the right attitude. But I think now with all my experience, I wouldn't even want a friendship with someone who is disrespectful about my work. Well, I wouldn't have thought when I asked the question, to be honest, I didn't have shame as the feeling in my mind. I had more jealousy, like more thought would be difficult. Yeah, I didn't think

that you'd be having a partner that would be shaming you because if you were at the point that you were in a relationship, I imagine they would have known and been okay with it. I would have thought the stronger feeling would be jealousy knowing that your partner was having these experiences with someone else. That is so interesting because

I can't honestly say that I understand jealousy from a personal perspective. Like I know it from an intellectual and I've done a lot of reading about it, but I don't feel it for myself, which is why it was so easy for me to be poly. I now wouldn't date someone who's not poly to start with. Like I don't want to train up another poly because it's a real lot of work. Yeah.

And that's not my work to do. So, yeah, jealousy is something that I've, because I don't experience it, I also don't tolerate it. So if someone expresses a jealousy, then it's not on. It's so fascinating because jealousy also comes from like a slight sense of ownership, right? Like you're jealous because you feel an entitlement to that person and to the decisions that you've made in your relationship. But I guess if you come to your relationships with the expectations that, yeah,

that things are more fluid and things are more open. It is, I guess, like the conversations that have to surround it are also more open. But I do find it fascinating that you say that it's not an emotion you experience because I've never heard anyone, even the people that we've spoken to who have been poly or in different relationship dynamics that are not monogamous,

a lot of them say that, you know, jealousy is a thing that they manage in different ways, but it's not something that's completely void from their relationships. Yeah, I think you're right. I have spoken about this like most of my partner's circumstances

say they have felt jealous in the past about different things. But I realise that other people do feel this emotion. And that's why I intellectualise it. That's why I've done, you know, my work in finding out what is this jealousy. Like, I really love The Ethical Slut, Jossie Eastman and Janet Hardy. It was like my Bible. It came out in 1997.

They have actually two or three chapters on dealing with jealousy. You know, I've got every marriage counselling book in the world and very few of them even mention the word jealousy, let alone have a chapter. But the ethical slut does. So what does that tell us about how...

Having lots of different experiences is so beneficial to how we feel about ourselves and how we are able to understand others. Hilary, you speak about slut phobia and whore phobia. Tell us a little bit about what they are. Well, whore phobia is just slut phobia dialed up because whores are treated badly in order to warn all women not to be sluts.

Based on, like, homophobia, like, it's a fear of someone who's different than you. And the reason we slut shame is to increase that fear so that women will be put in their place, right? So it's so detrimental to all women. But then all men, like, all people who want to have sex with women are also disadvantaged. You know, a couple of weeks ago, somebody who murdered two sex workers got a sentence of manslaughter in a plea bargain. Like, you know, a

Are we worth less than other people? Like if we all want to be part of a solution, we've got to, you know, change the way we use the words slut and whore and see it as a really positive thing. See sex as positive. See women's sex as positive. See sexual experience as positive. Skills, wow, you can have pleasure in yourself and give yourself an antidepressant and give yourself an anti-anxiety drug just like that.

you can give pleasure to someone else and help them feel those wonderful things. Sex is so good for us. We should be really celebrating it. And that means we've got to make those words mean something else. We can't just make them go away because they'll always be there. How do we change the meaning of the words? Like what is the next step then in able to support this in terms of, in terms of rewriting the social standards and expectations on how people are treated and how we internalize shame around sex? Like what are the next steps?

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about the next steps. I would really love the social movement, hashtag slut2 to take off. Every single one of us, just like in the Me Too movement that shows that we're not afraid of being called a slut, we are proud of these words, then that makes it easier for every single one of us, for all the others, you know. So I would love to see a movement like that take off where just people

people are so proud. I'm not the first person to come up with the idea of reclaiming the word slut or the action of being a slut. But I think that now is really the right time because women's sexual pleasure is in the news. It's everywhere. And we've really reached this moment where we can't sort of take that back. We can't pretend that's not real. And so the logic of

celebrating sex, the time is right. It is a scary space when you say that though, as well, because like, as much as it is one step in the direction, you're also pushing up against people who have these very firm ideas. And so like, it is scary to be a pioneer in a space, your experiences and some of the more frightening sexual experiences that you've had.

are also come from a byproduct of being loud and visible and being proud of being in the space that you're in. And so there's always a part of me that goes like for, and I think about like young girls who are like, you know what, I'm a slut and I'm proud and I'm,

in no way, like I know that the gears need to shift, but I also get worried about them shifting in a society where there's so many men who don't respect women because I worry about like who has to go first. Do you know what I mean by that? It's just, it's a scary space to be the pioneer. What you're saying is it could be dangerous to be a slut.

Which is absolutely true. And it's not something that you've created. You're not inflicting the danger just by saying this is dangerous. Absolutely not. And this is the reason we protect young girls too and we don't want them to be sexual in public because we're trying to protect them. We don't want them to be hurt. But the thing is we just have to start somewhere. Yeah.

I mean, we saw that with the Me Too movement that, like, I was actually afraid to say Me Too. Like, you know, obviously I have experienced this and I have every right to say Me Too, but, you know, as a sex worker that's more dangerous than for other women. There's a book called We Too about sex workers' experiences of assault because they didn't feel comfortable in the Me Too movement. But in the main, the Me Too movement was something that,

We only drew courage from each other. It was the numbers. When it was millions, when it was millions of women in days were doing it, we're like, right, I'm with them, you know. So I think that's the same with confronting the actual reality that it is more dangerous to be a slut and to be considered worthless than other women. But it's the only way for an acting change. That's right.

There is almost still a different calibre of like, okay, well, there's OnlyFans accounts and then there's still your traditional sex work and there's still a bit of a caveat between how society views the two. What are your thoughts on, for example, OnlyFans and how there has been that online shift and conversation happening? That's a positive thing.

consequence of the pandemic is the number of people that went on to OnlyFans. And the thing about OnlyFans is it's face out. Like, it's really hard to be anonymous with an OnlyFans account, regardless of what it's for. And, you know, everyone's going to think you're

having erotic services if you're on OnlyFans because that's how OnlyFans really took off as a platform. It's not the case anymore. There are other uses. But yeah, the fact that so many people took up sex work face out on a digital platform during the pandemic has actually made it a lot easier for other sex workers to come out. Thank you to all of those sex workers and all the sex workers before

for me who came out, it was hard for me to come out, but it was much easier because I'd seen other sex workers do it and be okay. So...

Yeah, I think you're right. It has changed the conversation quite a lot and I think mainly because a digital platform face out means it's much harder to hide. Do you and how do you vet new clients? I'm not seeing new clients at the moment, just a little tip for all those people. You're like, hey, yeah, before I jump on, the books are closed.

My books are closed, yeah, but how would I screen? I would take the advice of lots of other sex workers and we actually keep our screening methods amongst ourselves. We keep it private because if someone

people realize exactly how we screen, then they will find a way around. And we are constantly updating the way we screen and the tools we use, the way we share information is constantly changing, also because digital platforms are constantly changing. Yeah.

but we do that to protect each other. That's fascinating. I wouldn't have thought of that. I mean, obviously it makes perfect sense, but I wouldn't have thought that there is like this, you know, secret conversation that's going on amongst how to keep yourself safe because it is an important part of the conversation, but it's something that you have to take so much agency for.

That's right. There's a wonderful podcast, Someone You Love. I think it's someone you pod in the actual URL, but it's called Someone You Love by Jenna Love, a very proud sex worker who happens to be the president of Scarlet Alliance, the national peer group for sex workers. And

And their podcast has, and also on social media, they do a lot of promotion about exactly how sex work works and, you know, what's happening today. And, you know, if you're interested in the work or you're interested in ideas around how all these things happen, that podcast is a must listen. Hilary, what do you love about it? What about the industry is it that you were like, if you can choose, I mean, obviously you have the choice of working in many different industries. So what is it about this industry that you're like, actually, this is exactly what I want to be doing?

I've got to say it gets down to basics of money and orgasms.

Which checks out. It does. But I kind of like the status. Like I'm a granny and I am a sex worker. Like I kind of like that. I challenge people just by my existence. I don't even have to say anything. What's your age range of clients now that you say you're a granny? Like what's the youngest clients that you have and the oldest clients that you have? I still have clients that started to see me when they were 18 and they –

are now in their mid-20s. So I have a couple of clients like that. And basically, those clients come because they want to learn about sex. And some of them have disabilities, so they're not going to meet people otherwise. But I also have clients well into their 80s. Some people still have really good erectile function at that age, and some don't. But the

Penetrative sex is not necessarily the goal. Once people get older and they realise that there is so much more to a sexual experience than putting something in something, once they realise that sex is so much more wholesome than that, then age doesn't matter or ability doesn't matter. So, yeah, I have many clients into their 80s. I'm not sure if I've had one in their 90s, but it's been pretty close. Like a few of my clients have died from...

age-related illnesses, like they're old. It's been lovely to look after them until that time. A couple of them I've even wanted to go to their funerals, but I haven't because, you know, you do develop close relationships with people that are really quite lovely. I can just imagine you standing around the cucumber sandwiches at the wake and people are like, so how did you know Jeff? And you're like, well, do I have a story for you? He passed away in my bed. Yeah.

It was great. Oh, God. Hilary, do you think your perception around sex and like the shame that you may have carried or the thoughts that you had earlier on in your, like when you started, how have they shifted throughout your life and when did you start to see the most significant changes? I think that I was pretty lucky to escape a lot of the shaming when I was a kid. Partly it was because we weren't really allowed to watch much television and

And I was allowed to read books. So I was reading Jackie Collins' Valley of the Dolls before I even had thought about being sexual myself. And I read The Happy Hooker before I'd become sexual myself. And I really did fantasize about being a sex worker when I was a young teen. So I don't know that I carried the same shame that

a lot of people have been inflicted with. But, of course, I am a member of society that has that shame en masse. So I think I was very open about having sexual experiences before I married. And then when I was married, I was...

very married. I was very much in the gender role of being the wife and the mother and that suited me for a while but when it didn't suit me, like I was married for 15 years, had the four children, as soon as I stopped being married, I

I wanted to experiment again. And as soon as I started experimenting, it was just too good. I mean, my body told me. I just felt like my body knows more than the rest of the world combined. You know, when my body tells me this is good, I'm going to go with that. We spoke to Angela White, who's one of the world classified as like one of the best in the world in her industry of porn.

And she said the same thing. She said since she was a teenager, she knew that that's what she wanted to do. Before she was having these sexual experiences, she's like, I knew I had the interest. I was so sexual. I wanted to go and learn. And she did. The second she turned 18, off she went. And so I feel like when you said that, it resonated a lot with Angela. What do you think would be the strangest request you've had? You said you do a lot of role play. What's the most common role play scene and the strangest request?

I would have to say that that is the most common question. Yeah. And also the one that I struggle the most to answer because, I don't know, some of my weirder sex experiences have been outside of sex work. You'd probably be surprised with how boring and regular sex work can be. Which is fine if that's the answer. Yeah. I really don't know. I mean...

I have one client who's intellectually impaired and he just likes to roll between the nurse, the teacher and the dominatrix. But really, it's the same service. Don't tell him, but it's the same every time.

That's funny. It's funny you say this because that's exactly what Angela said. But Angela was also like, when you've worked in the industry that I've worked in for so long, she's like, there is no strange request because everything, she's like, even the requests that might be strange to you are now so ordinary to me that I don't see it with the same sort of like, ooh, scandal perception around it. No, but she said, she's like, it's not strange to her, but there is out of the ordinary. One of hers was that this one particular person wants to be really little. Like he wants to be...

two centimeters tall and she has to pick him up and put him in the pocket and things like that like there are some very specific role playing that people like I always find that fascinating yeah I really am interested in like what do you think are the biggest misconceptions that people have around their views of sex work and one of the ones that comes to mind and I think especially when you talk about how you had four kids and your nursing my thought is that

when you don't tell people or when you've got young kids, especially that the instant thought is like, oh, you can't be a good mom and also be a sex worker. Like these are the types of like unfounded thoughts that people have, which comes with the stigma that surrounds sex work. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions of people who work within the industry and of the friends and the community that you've built around yourself? Yeah.

Yeah, the misconceptions are that you are a different type of person. But let me tell you a story that illustrates your question and point so much. One day I was waiting for a client and I was completely naked because then I didn't have to wash any clothes. It's so much more easy to be naked. Oh wow, you really just hate the housework. Here I am.

Yeah. So I'm completely naked. I'm waiting for this client and my private phone rings and I'm like, oh shit, no, my private phone. I'm going to have to change my name. I'm going to have to change my persona. So I answer my private phone really quickly and say, hello, Hillary speaking. Like, remember who you are, girl. And it's the school counsellor.

And I'm like, oh, is my daughter okay? You know, what's going on? And she says, oh, no, your daughter's fine. She just came in to talk to me. But it was you that I was calling about. You know, I just really wanted to see how you are. And I'm like, oh, okay, why? And she said, oh, well, your daughter said that you started pole dancing. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's the best sport. I'm getting abs. It's really fun. And she went, oh, that's okay then and hangs up. And I'm like, hang on a minute.

I'm stuck as waiting to fuck someone. And that's what you're worried about. You're not worried anymore. And I'm just like, why do you think she called? Why do you think she was? She thought I was stripping. She thought it because, you know, I'm a single mom. So obviously I'm stripping, but you know, she's got to check in to make sure that the kids aren't being exposed to what I'm doing. Like, you know, she just made that assumption, even though she was actually,

not as right as she could have been. If only you knew. Yeah.

But like aren't we entitled to private lives? Like, you know, I just thought it's so ridiculous. Yeah, it really is. And that gave me a lot of stuff to laugh about for a while, that one. You just reminded me of not that long ago, last year, we were having this conversation and it sort of was sweeping or doing the rounds online, the idea that this, like I think it was a teacher specifically, but a teacher got stood down because she

She was, she had an OnlyFans. That's right. She had an OnlyFans and she kept her private life separate, but obviously kids being kids, they do Googles and they found it. It started this whole discussion about the fact that teachers and nurses and people that are in this caregiving roles or public facing roles, government roles shouldn't have access to this separate life.

Obviously, I know your opinion on it because you do both simultaneously. But do you remember that conversation? And what are your thoughts about teachers having like trying to attempt to have a separate online OnlyFans account then one day and then the next day they can go and teach, you know, 12 and under?

It doesn't change who you are at all. This conversation happens every day. There are people discriminated against for their sexuality every single day. I can't actually be a police officer. I can't be a lawyer. You know, I might have difficulty getting a security check in a government department if I wanted to be a public servant. There are so many jobs and so many ways of discriminating against sex workers and people who are sexual that...

that aren't written into law. That's called stigma and discrimination. And it is so rife that this is the whole point of my wanting to...

to fight against that. I don't think people realise how much sex workers are discriminated against in everyday lives. Yeah. Well, it's not even legal in every state, is it? No, no. In South Australia, it's still completely illegal. You know, there were many challenges to criminalise it further. It's crazy. That we fight all the time. There are

Western Australia is partly criminalised. Tasmania is partly criminalised. ACT, here where I am, it's legalised, which is actually bad too because if you legalise something, you define it. And if you define it, there's going to be people outside of your definition. It's a very broad brush. So it's impossible to define. So we...

Sex workers demand a decriminalisation model because we don't want laws that are specific to us. We don't need laws that are specific. We want to be treated like workers, like every other. We want to be included in health and safety regulations. We want to be included in all the other ways that businesses are controlled and regulated. And we don't think we need anything specific. There are no situations that...

specific to sex work that should be legislated against. So yeah, but that's saying that we also are fighting for anti-discrimination laws or regulations so that we can be protected through discrimination as well as

through not having bad laws. Most of Australia, like New South Wales, has been decriminalised for nearly 30 years and the size of the industry has not increased. The numbers of people who are exploited in the industry have not increased. In fact, sex workers are safer under decriminalised models and that's been shown in New South Wales with lots and lots of data. So now that Victoria, New South Wales, Northern Territory and Queensland are

are decriminalised in different ways. There are still laws that are difficult because sex working laws infiltrate like advertising laws and like so many different aspects of how we live are regulated by laws and

The way we have sex is regulated by laws in lots of ways that people don't really understand. So decriminalisation is not just simply saying, oh, look, let's just remove a law. It'll be done. It's a very complicated process. And so it's different in every area. So it's still difficult to work legally. Like when I was working Northern Territory before Decrim came in, there was this law that said you couldn't receive a phone call for a booking, for a sex working booking, legally.

at the same place where you do the booking. It's something like they didn't want to establish agencies brothels. They didn't want brothels where people would just rock up and make an appointment. So they said, okay, so there was this law. It was like 100 years old or something. But it meant that if I wanted to work in there, I would just run outside and answer my phone and then I'd run back inside ready to get ready for the booking. And then I was like, this is ridiculous. So I was taking the phone call, you

illegally.

How ridiculous. It's ridiculous, especially the fact that you have to run out the front to answer the call and run back in. Yeah, and I understand that there is probably a lot more legislation around how it can be advertised, how you can solicit for customers, which even like working in radio, there's lots of laws around talking about anything that's too sexual because it then can, you know, it's different time slots, all that sort of stuff. I would understand that there must be legislation around advertising for you as well.

Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Like in Queensland, prior to decrim coming in, and the other thing about criminalisation is that the police are the people who maintain the law or enact the law. So then sex workers are policed, which is not good. So in Queensland, they've got different laws. Every state has different laws about what you can say in your advertising. But now that we have websites that are

I might say that I'm sexy on my website, but if I go to Queensland to work, then that would actually put me in breach before decrim, would have put me in breach of a law. And I do know a sex worker who has been charged with incorrect advertising and had her phone, laptop, money stolen by police because copyrights

Like, you know, that's just being targeted. That's just being discriminated against because you're a sex worker, but they had the law on their side. So, yeah, bad laws, yeah.

through advertising also affects sex workers negatively. And also I can imagine that it must be such a challenging industry when like a lot of people who are in it who may be already disadvantaged to then have their accessibility, their phones, their money and everything else taken away. Like what a horrific cycle it creates. Yeah.

Yeah. Add a level of difficulty if you're a migrant and you've come here on a vision. Hilary, thank you so much for joining us today. It's truly a pleasure to speak to you. It's so insightful. And my favorite part of doing this podcast is being able to give people like you a platform and education.

Educate us. Educate us on a world that we don't know about, a world that is still taboo and a world that we think we would love to help normalise as well. So thank you for coming on today. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. We are going to link Dr Hilary Caldwell's book, Slutdom, Reclaiming Shame-Free Sexuality, in all her socials in our show notes. So if you want to go find more, if you want to read the book, if you want to get amongst it, everything will be there. Thank you.