Conflict Affects Sex and Sex Affects Conflict. Uncut with Sexologist Lucille Shackleton
45:24 Share

This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. And I'm Keisha filling in for Brit today and I am so excited. The episodes that we do with sexologists, they're the spiciest, they're the most fun. They're always also the most clicked on to be honest. I

We know why. We know what you want to listen to. But also this one, I think it's a little bit of a different take because when we interview sexologists, we talk about like the nitty gritty of sex. We talk about all your sexy questions that you send in to us. But we're also talking about conflict today, which I think as much as it's important to talk about how do you have intimacy and how do you get your libido back and all those things I think are very common questions. One thing that we are all going to face in our relationships is conflict and how do we resolve this in order to have better sex lives?

Now, the woman that we are interviewing today is Lucille Shackleton, and she has just written a book called All In, answering all of these questions. Lucille, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I mean, you know we start every podcast episode the same way. That's your accidentally unfiltered to start with. I mean, interesting when you're like, hey, I'm a sexologist and I'm a fully educated woman and I don't need to be telling you my most embarrassing moments, but here we are. And you don't get off scot-free either. Yeah.

Yes, and I'm glad that you kind of started with that because that is very relevant for this story. So I thought I'd share a dating story with you. Amazing. Back a few years ago when I was dating men, I went through a period where I was single. Lucille, there was your problem. It was the dating men part. That's where it started all going wrong. Life has changed a lot since then, yes.

So I was like over the dating apps and I was like, all right, how am I going to meet people? So I decided to go speed dating and I went to the speed dating event and like it was fine. Anyway, there was one person that I met that I

I thought, oh yeah, you know, he's pretty cool. We got along. So, you know, with speed dating at the end, you decide, you like tick a box and if you both tick a box, then you get each other's numbers. So we exchanged numbers and went on a few dates. Things were going really well. You know, as they do, he kind of reeled me in. He really showed up. He really made an effort. So things went on and I got invested. I was like, oh yeah, this guy's great. Really good. Who would have thought? Who would have thought? It's the one. Yeah. Speed dating. Speed dating.

Anyway, so I can't remember if it was like six weeks in, two months in, something like that, like a little while in. One Saturday night, he turns up and he turns up with this beautiful bunch of flowers, like a really big, expensive bunch of flowers. And I'm like, this guy likes me, right?

All fine. Next day he leaves and you know how you just get this gut feeling? You feel the vibe shift. The vibe shifted. Call it women's intuition. Yeah, we've all been there. And I was like, something has changed. I don't know what it is, but something has changed. Anyway, so throughout that week he started to get more distant in text. He's like, oh, I've got family stuff going on, so I have to cancel our date that we were meant to have during the week. And I was like, okay, I'm getting ghosted or something anyway.

So the week goes on and by the next weekend, I'm like, screw this. I'm just going to, I'm going to name it. And so I send him a message and I'm like, I don't know if I'm imagining this, but can I just clarify, am I getting ghosted? Good. I reckon that that's how you're supposed to attack it though. I agree. Rather than a soft fade and letting them just kind of dwindle out, like at least it doesn't waste your time. Look, that part was mature. What came next? Not so much.

So then he writes back and look, he was good in that he owned it. He said, look, I'm really sorry. My communication hasn't been great. I should have just said to you that yes, I have family stuff going on, but actually the truth is I just didn't feel the spark. A mature adult version of me would have just written back, you know, being secure in myself and gone totally fine. If you don't feel a spark, you don't feel a spark. That's not what I did. I didn't go high. I went low. And then I wrote a book about it.

How long are we talking? I wrote him this full-blown essay on how actually the spark is not a reliable indicator of whether or not you can create a healthy relationship with someone and how the spark is more to do with familiarity and sometimes past patterns. And he'd spoken about how he wanted to break his dating patterns and how if he really did want to break his dating patterns, then maybe...

Maybe he should try doing something differently. Do you know what you did? Not only did you school him, you also gave him the ick. He's like, I don't have the spark and now I've got the ick. I know, I know. So thank you. Needless to say, he never wrote back. Did he book a therapy appointment though? No, he did not. And...

And the worst part about this was I actually didn't think it was that bad until I started telling my friends and they were like, oh, Lucy. Do you know what I kind of love about this, though? It's like because we talk about this all the time on the podcast, right? Like we do ask on cuts. We answer people's questions. And often we all have the advice, but it is so hard to follow some of it yourself, you know, and like 100% technically you're like, cool, I've got all the tools. I can tell you what is going to give you the best version of your life.

And I'm trying to have the best version of mine, but we're all human. And like, even if you have the answers, you still make mistakes with it, right? Absolutely. And I guess that's the thing, like when you get triggered or when you feel rejected, when you feel emotionally overwhelmed, it is really difficult to act

in alignment with your integrity, with your values, to do the things you know you should do. So we all have human moments. That was a human moment for me where later I was like, probably shouldn't have said that. I screamed at a guy in a car park recently and that was a real human moment for me when I called him a prick out my window. So like I get it. I was like I'm better than this. Why would I do that? So how did you get into being a sexologist and what was it about this profession that you wanted to learn more about or felt that there was a gap and a need for?

So I became a sexologist after working as a relationship therapist for some time. So I started working as a relationship therapist and started to realize that in all the training I'd done, they didn't really talk about sex.

And a lot of the time when people came into sessions, we'd be talking about their relationship and the state of the relationship affects the sexual relationship that you have. It affects desire. It affects libido. And so I started to realize that there was kind of this missing piece in the training that I'd done. And the training on relationships will often say, if the friendship is good, the sex will be good. And that just wasn't what I found. And through further studies, I've learned a lot more about why that is, but it's

And essentially there was a real lack of training. And so I basically was like, okay, well, I need to be able to support my clients better. I want to understand this more. And so I went and did a master's and did sexology slash psychosexual therapy in order to be able to bridge that gap in my practice. It's interesting because I think that there is sometimes this, I mean, there's two schools of

thought, right? Like fix the relationship and then you can fix the sex. But then other people will say, well, fix the sex and you'll fix the relationship. In what you've learned and in terms of like what your practice is, what do you think is like the main thing to kind of correct before you're able to work on the relationship together? Well, I think they go hand in hand. It kind of comes back to this underlying theme that for many people, secure monogamous relationships and does

desire, passion and excitement can be difficult to hold at the same time. So it can be difficult to feel safety and security and all of these, you know, emotional kind of connection things that you want in a relationship and especially in a monogamous relationship and also have the excitement and the lust. And for people who are able to hold that at the same time, they're able to experience the

emotional safety and attachment to someone and also that kind of passion and excitement and freedom for them. Maybe it really is about the emotional connection and the friendship and being really close because that will enable them to feel safe and secure and connected and then that will help their sex life. But for a lot of other people, it's

The sex and the kind of the desire side and the pleasure side are actually a bit split. So it's what they call a love-lust split. Esther Perel talks about this a lot. And so for some people, actually being too close, so when we think about the friendship, having too much attachment, not having enough separateness, not feeling like you have enough individuality and freedom can actually be the thing that...

affects the sexual relationship. So this is where it's really kind of dependent on the person or the people in the relationship. And I think it actually comes back to what you were talking about in one of the last episodes about how we refer to one another in relationship and the names that we use. I was going to ask you about this. So for anyone who missed it, I think it was off the back of an Ask Uncut, but I was talking about how

in terms of desire, especially once you're a parent. And this is something that comes up all the time. Like I think anyone who has gone through the transition of becoming a parent, your relationship changes. Like it is never going to be exactly the same as what it was before you had kids. For some people, it's better. For some people, you have like this deeper, I don't even know how to describe it, like this deeper love for each other and respect for each other. But trust me, your sex life is probably suffering in some way, especially if you've got little kids. Yeah.

But on the flip side to this, a lot of us can fall into the traps of referring to each other as mommy or daddy and not in a sexy way, not in a bedroom way, but like you're talking to your kids. And so therefore you're talking to them about your partner and you're like, oh, daddy said this. Daddy wants you to do that. And this is something I do all the time. And I was having a conversation with a girlfriend and she was like, you need to stop doing that. She's like, it is like the number one killer for how you communicate about your partner in your relationships.

Talk to me about what this does to us or why this terminology can have an impact on desire. If we just think about what you're describing for a moment, you're basically, yeah, you're calling your partner daddy.

Right? Yeah. Family. It's not cute. Not in a hot way. Like, yeah, like Terry Byrne kind of way. I'm not doing it in a cute way, guys. But this is the thing, right? So if we just think about, okay, what are the things that people desire? When you think about your fantasies and the things that you desire and the things that really turn you on, most of the time people aren't saying, you know, my hottest fantasy is a monogamous relationship with a partner I have sex with regularly in the same way.

Like it might be someone that makes me feel safe and secure, but often what it is is it's excitement, it's risk, it's difference, it's creativity, it's curiosity. And so if you think this is someone that you see every day, you have safety, you have security, you have dependability, which is all amazing things that we need for relationship, but they don't necessarily make you feel hot. Right.

And so when you think of that closeness that you create, you create like a family bond. You don't have sex with family. You don't desire family. And so we're kind of creating this dynamic where we're so close that

that it can be difficult to then desire that person, see them as an individual, see that kind of separateness. I think you can also like you can postpone it because you know it's always there. So it's like this, like I can't be bothered to have sex tonight. I'll just do it tomorrow night. You're not going anywhere. Like I'm a bit tired.

Come and grab it. Complacency. Yeah, and then complacency becomes the norm. And then once complacency has become the norm, it's really hard to kickstart yourself again and be like, do I want to have sex with you or am I just doing it because I feel like I have to do it now? Just get it out of the way. And I...

Guys, I'm not just speaking for myself. I swear. I do want to have sex with my husband. But I know that this is something that a lot of women, I don't want to gender it, but I know a lot of women experience this. And especially mums who have little kids who are already so touched out and so overworked and they get to the end of the day and the last thing they want to do is like take off what feels like another job on the list. This is where it's really important to

I think of it as like, are you having sex for the sake of having sex? Are you having sex that you're actually wanting? Like, it's always this kind of question of, do you not want sex for people who are not interested in sex?

Or are you not having sex that you actually want? And, you know, I'm sure we'll dig more into this throughout this episode, but there is a real piece when it comes to sexless relationships or like sex fizzled out or not wanting sex or whatever it might be. Really exploring, okay, what kind of sex are you having? What are the things that you enjoy? What are the things that turn you on?

And is it that you're not desiring sex because of things going, you know, there's stuff happening in your body, you're stressed, you're overwhelmed, you're touched out, like is it all those things? Or is it that you're not desiring the sex that you have been having and maybe it's about...

thinking outside the box and really having open discussions on what do we want our sex life to be like? What do we want to experience? What do we want to create with one another? Lucy, do you think that it's realistic? I mean, I kind of view this whole like desire and then security on a scale and desires on one complete end and securities on the other. Is it realistic to expect that we could live in the middle?

I've kind of always seen myself as more of a like, I'm usually either black or white about this kind of thing where I have only experienced relationships where I've had like complete desire and lust. And then the opposite of it is where I've felt secure and felt very safe, but my sex drive has definitely declined. And I wonder whether it's a personality type to be like, oh, yeah.

Maybe I just have to see it as what do I want more? What do I prefer more? What's going to benefit me more long term in my life? Or is it actually possible to find that happy medium between the two? It is possible to have both, but it varies according to different people. So I think values are something and like what's important to you is something that we need to explore. Like how important is sex to you?

how important are certain aspects of a relationship because I think it's always a balancing act.

When we choose a relationship, we choose a certain set of problems. I know that sounds really pessimistic, but the reality is when we come together, there are going to be things that we are going to have to learn to navigate because we're different people. If sex is something that's important to you, then it's about going, okay, this is something that I really want to have in my relationship.

It's something that I feel is really important. It's a big part of who I am and what I bring and how we connect and all of that. And so it's about kind of weighing things up. It's not about sacrificing safety because we also need to have safety, but maybe it's not a traditional dynamic. Maybe it's about creating a dynamic that works for you. So there's enough separateness, there's enough freedom that you keep that excitement if you find it hard to hold both.

But you can still have that level of security and dependency. Like I think it is really a balancing act of figuring out what works for me, what works for us. And that's going to be different for everyone. And like you said, there is a bit of a scale here where some people will find it difficult to have both. They will. And this is because of that love-lust split where for some people they can experience both and sit in the middle and it can be wonderful. And for some people they're a little bit outside of that and for some people they're more outside of that. And we can work with that.

And we can create more passion and excitement in relationship. We can create more safety. It's about choosing partners that are willing to do that work with you, that are willing to have the conversations, that are willing to create the relational environment that you want to have, whether that's sex and intimacy or whether that's the relationship. Do you often have people come to see you, like clients, that are a

aligned on those things you know this love-lust split yeah let's say that one person in the relationship is very much kind of on the love side and wants that security in that family unit and the more traditional monogamous relationship style is it common that both people in the relationship will feel exactly the same way or is it actually quite normal for people to not really be exactly the same and there's got to be a bit of a push-pull totally normal to have differences

Differences are so normal. People don't often just really have open conversations about sex like we do about other things. People might be really clear about, I want to have a relationship that has open communication where we navigate conflict in a productive way, like really clear on what the relationship requirements are that they want to have, but they may not be clear on what they want from sex and intimacy. And so I often talk to people about going, okay, well, what does sex actually mean to you? What do you want from sex?

You know, is sex freedom? Is sex passion? Is sex excitement? Or is sex closeness and connection? Like, what does it actually mean to you? What do you want to get from sex but with a partner that you don't get from solo pleasure? Like,

What is the thing that makes you want to be with a person over just being with yourself, right? Because you can get yourself there. So what makes it different with another person? What are you seeking? I have a question for people who have been in like long-term relationships. Do you think that it is...

statistically normal for people to go through like a very significant disparity in your libido or do you think it is like very achievable to maintain that throughout a long-term relationship? I think it is absolutely necessary.

not realistic to assume that your libido is going to be the same or consistent over time at all. Yeah, because I think about it from like literally every single friend I know who's in a long-term relationship has gone through these ebbs and flows of like just genuine lack of desire and it's not that they don't love their partners and this goes both ways. You know, often...

Actually, I probably shouldn't say it goes both ways. It probably is slightly more gender skewed towards women and that's because a lot of my friends are female. But I would say a lot of people who have either had kids or are in long, long-term relationships, their sexual desire and want to have sex is far less than what it was when they were in their 20s or early 30s. And I know that's a stereotype and it's not going to be for everyone, but it's definitely been like a common theme that I have seen throughout my older long-term friends, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And this is the thing, life impacts libido.

So like if we think about life changes, like having babies impacts libido. Of course it does. You're going to be tired. Your hormones are changing. You've just gone through this huge experience where your body has changed, like your body's been through a massive change.

And you've gone from lovers and partners to co-parents. To daddies. Yeah, to daddies and mummies. And so it's such a big shift that you go through. We go through periods where life is more stressful at work. So stress impacts libido.

You're going to go through times where you feel more connected in relationship and times where you don't. That impacts libido. And so I think it's really normal to have ups and downs throughout time. And one of the things that tends to help, it's interesting, I was doing some research around mismatched libido or differences in desire. And it's one of the most common things that brings people into sex-related therapy because there's always this kind of idea that we should both always want to have sex. And if we're not having sex, then there's something wrong, right? Yeah.

And the research that I did, what I found was that the relationship satisfaction tended to be low when people thought that there was something wrong. It tended to go up when even just the fact that this was normal was understood. Once it was normalized that it's everybody has fluctuations in libido within relationship and individually,

and education and actually just talking about it. So once the communication was better around it and the shame was worked through and it was normalised that this is something that people experience, the relationship satisfaction tended to go up even if they weren't having more sex. Because the thing is though is you feel rejected. You know, if you're the partner who has a high libido, you can only assume that it's because it's about you. You never really think, oh, this is a totally you problem and it's got nothing to do with me. You think, well, you're not

attracted to me anymore or I'm not desirable to you. And so there's a lot of self-blame that gets kind of enmeshed into this. I think there's also the element where, you know how you said it's more stereotypical that women will lose their libidos. I think that's even magnified if you're the woman in the relationship whose male partner has sex

had a drop in libido because it kind of affects your confidence, I guess, because you're like, well, this isn't normal. Most men have a libido for another 50 years. Like what's even more wrong with me that my partner doesn't want to have sex with me? Absolutely. Yeah, there's this message that men should always want to have sex, which puts pressure on men, but then also it makes women feel terrible if their partner doesn't want to have sex because they assume there's something wrong with them. You mentioned something in your book around like how when people present sex

to have a consultation or to have an appointment and they're talking about these disparities in their sex life or whatever it is that the issue is that they've presented with. Often it's like a case of people thinking they want to fix their sex life, but also they are really wanting to blame the partner. Like they're actually just wanting someone to, I don't want to say accuse, but we see it in therapy as well. It's like, I'm here to fix the relationship, but really they're the problem.

Like how do you manage those situations? And I guess for ourselves, when we know that there is more conflict at play or we think that our partner is the one at fault, but we're presenting to try and have a resolution to something, like how do you work through that? One of the things I notice when it comes to therapy quite broadly, when it's about relationships, is a lot of the time, and look, I think most of us are guilty of this to a degree,

We think that we're right. We think that the other person is the problem. Like they're doing the thing and we need to work together to fix the thing that they're doing. But the thing is them. The thing is them. I'm coming here to fix the problems that we have because of you, you prick. Yeah.

We all know. Yeah, exactly. And we may not even admit it to ourselves or even be conscious of it sometimes, but we all have, you know, we all have different beliefs. We're all raised differently. Yeah. And we tend to think, okay, well, the way that I handle things or the beliefs that I have or the expectations that I have of you are the right ones.

and I need help to get you on board, whatever the issue is. And so the thing with therapy is the way that I kind of approach it, especially because I work with individuals and I work with all relationship structures, but sometimes people will come in to work on their relationships by themselves, not necessarily with their partner. And so what I work on is, okay, what are we each bringing to this? Because

Outside of unhealthy, abusive relationships, outside of that, it's generally a team effort, whatever's been created, right? The issues are something that we all are responsible for. It's something that we've all had a part to play in. And so we need to look at, okay, like what's my part in this? How am I contributing to this issue, to this dynamic, to whatever is going on? Because even if we look at something that might be something

you know, assumed to be one person's kind of challenge. So say someone has some sort of, I'm trying to think of an example. What's something that we might think is one person's problem? Someone who drinks too much alcohol, spends too much time with the boys. So we could all say that that is that person, right? Let's say it's the man for the sake of it. It just sounded that way, spending lots of time with the boys. When you said spending lots of time with the boys, I just imagined it was a man.

Well, I think it would have like significant other issues if you're in a heterosexual relationship and you're like, she's just spending so much time with the boys. Yeah. Well, I mean, we could go down that road too, actually. It's another problem. Yeah. But if we imagine that, it's kind of going, okay, so what is going on with this person that they are seeking out this or engaging in this behavior? What need are they trying to fill by engaging this behavior and understanding, okay, you

So if we take this example, is there a dynamic where this person is maybe feeling overwhelmed in the relationship, maybe feeling like there's a lot of pressure on them? Who knows? There could be lots of things going on. What's the communication like? What's the connection like? What's the dynamic like? Because sure, it may be that this person is selfish.

It could be them. Like it could genuinely just be them. But often there's more of a dynamic at play. It could also be that they're feeling really stressed and overwhelmed and they're feeling like there's a lot of pressure and they're feeling like they need to go and spend time with their friends in order to have some downtime because maybe there's stuff happening in the relationship. And so it's about kind of understanding like what is the dynamic at play? What are we each bringing to this? And how can we come together to create the dynamic we want? Because

You know, what I talk a lot about in the book is like you co-create the relationship. So you have the power and ability to create the relationship you want to have by the way you speak to one another, by the way you treat one another, by the way you engage and by the way you think about one another. Like that's a big thing, the way you think about one another. And so if there's something happening and you're not happy with it,

How are you addressing it? And are you addressing it in a way that you're kind of unpacking it and then going, okay, what kind of relationship do we want to have? What can we do? What can we do? You kind of just touched on it, but I'd love to know more about this idea of the narratives that we create for our partners and how we, and we think we all do it to some extent, but we manufacture a narrative around the person that they are or the things that they're doing. Yeah. I love this concept that comes from Terry Real. Yeah.

And it's that we all have a core negative image of a partner. And basically that's where we take what we perceive to be their biggest faults and we exaggerate it and kind of make it a massive part of who they are. Right. And so what happens is when we have decided that this is their fault or this is the thing that annoys us most about them, right.

The way that your brain works is once you've decided something like that, you've created a belief that this person is this way. And so then your brain looks for information to confirm that reality. So confirmation bias, right? I'm laughing because I'm so guilty of it. I'm just having a moment where I'm like, oh, okay.

Oh, I know exactly what this is. Yeah. And we all do it. So just don't worry, we all do it. The key is to like figure out when you're doing it. But basically what we do is so like say you decide –

Your partner is really forgetful and just totally thoughtless and it just gets you so angry, right? So say they lose their keys and you notice that they lose your keys and it just makes your blood boil because they keep going to you, where are my keys? Where are my keys? Right?

You notice that and what we do then because of the ways that our brain work, we give that so much more value than we do all the times when they don't lose their keys and all the times they're not forgetful. So say there's like 50 times in a week where they know exactly where their keys are because they're going in and out of the house all day. They're going to work. They're going here. They're going there. They don't lose things.

Maybe they're really thoughtful in other areas. Maybe they're really great. But because you have this belief or this narrative, this core negative image of them being really thoughtless or careless or losing their kids or whatever, that is such a big deal when they do it. You give it so much more value over the times when they do the opposite. And so part of working through this is going, okay, so firstly, what is the core negative image I have of my partner?

And secondly, noticing when it comes up and actively looking for the opposite, actively looking for information and evidence of when they're not being thoughtless, careless, and so on. Because it's something that we all do. We all kind of create these beliefs about a person. And once we create a belief about a person, we look for evidence for it to be true. And we overvalue that evidence. Okay.

against the counter. Yeah, and I think this links back into something that you were talking about before, this idea that we think our version of something is correct. Yeah. I mean, it's difficult because when you're already in that mindset of being like, no, but I'm the one who's right in this situation and you're wrong and this is why we're fighting, how do you learn to take accountability in this type of conflict or shift that so that you're not

In a situation where you butt up against a wall because you're both so stubborn that you think you're both right. Sometimes, you know, I think we talk about arguments and we think it's like an argument. An argument can be long-stemming. Like you could be having the same argument for three years, just in different smaller ways, you know. How do you shift that or how do you –

I guess, move from thinking that your version or your narrative is the correct one. The research that the Gottman Institute have done suggests that 69% of issues in relationship are perpetual issues. That means they're not solvable, right? And so it's actually not about learning how to fix them, and that's why they keep coming up.

It's learning how to navigate them. So when we think about this difference in our realities, difference in how we're thinking and feeling, it's really about learning to sit with those differences and understand and hold space for one another's perspectives because we all live life differently.

from our experience. We all have different perspectives based on our beliefs, based on our past, based on our thoughts. Like we filter the world through our kind of lens, right, that is made up of all these things. And so of course we're going to think and feel differently about things. And so I often think it's about holding space for the fact that two things can be true at once. You

You know, you can feel a certain way about something and it can also be true that their intention was not to make you feel that way. So when it comes to unpacking stuff, this is where good conflict management and good communication come in. And it's about not necessarily trying to fix the issue because it won't always be fixable, but it's about trying to understand what is going on for the other person and holding space.

So it's about being open to hear what was that experience like for that other person? How were they feeling? What does that mean to them? And allowing them to actually have that experience, allowing them to feel how they feel rather than to try and change it, even if you don't agree. So I always say validation is your superpower when it comes to relationships.

If you can validate, which basically means you are accepting someone's emotional experience rather than agreeing. You don't have to agree, right? There's so many times in relationship where you're not going to agree on stuff, but you can still hold space for one another. It isn't easy, but you can do it, right? When you're like, that just simply didn't happen. But this is it. We even have different memories of the same event. Because you experienced it from your perspective. You interpreted everything through your lens. And so it is different.

Like the only way to get like an objective truth is to record everything. But then even then people interpret things differently. I think, I mean, for so many people, like one of the big sticking points is like something was said or something. Usually it's something was said, you know, and this I'm talking about for like healthy relationships, non-toxic relationships. Something was said.

it wasn't meant to be hurtful in the way that it was interpreted. And you mentioned that two things can exist, you know, that like someone can be, you can be offended by what is said, but the intention was never to be offensive or it was never to hurt someone. In those instances,

where a wrong, I guess, has happened, but it was never meant to be. Like, who was in the right here? Do you know what I mean? Because we had this kind of, like, I mean, there's a bit of an argument at the moment that, and I'm not talking about relationships specifically, but socially, it's like, well, intention doesn't matter. It's impact, impact over intent. But when it comes to relationships, I'm like,

Well, it can't be impact over intent because then you're just saying that, well, your partner's a callous asshole because all that matters is the way that you felt, not actually what was intended by the meaning of what they said. Yeah. I think both things are important and I think we can hold space for both. So if you're the person that said something that has hurt your partner's feelings but you didn't mean to hurt their feelings...

you can still take accountability for the effect that they had and go, you know what? I am so sorry that me saying that made you feel that way or resulted in you feeling that way. Like, what do you lose by doing that? Like so much of our arguments and getting stuck in the back and forth is just ego. It's like, I don't want to apologize because I'm right. Okay, if you're fighting to be right, the relationship loses. It does. Like, what do you lose by saying, okay,

I'm really sorry I made you feel that way. I didn't mean to and I'm really sorry and I'm going to try and communicate better in future. And equally, that other person going, you know what, I hear you. I know you didn't mean it like that. Yes, that's how I felt but

That's okay. Let's move forward. On one hand, you can take accountability for the effect, even if that wasn't your intention. It comes back to validation, right? Like validation isn't agreeing. It's not saying I agree that I did that and it hurt you and I'm a bad person. It's saying I'm sorry for the effect that it had. And at the same time, we can let things go and not punish someone.

when the intention wasn't there, when they made a mistake. And I think it's this balance of, you know, being able to take accountability, be compassionate and practice forgiveness because if we keep cycling things around and being like, oh, you did this a year ago and now you know what I mean, if we keep bringing stuff up and like rubbing people's faces in past mistakes, like it's not healthy. Lisa, do you think that any time that we do have any type of conflict, and this doesn't even have to be in a relationship specifically,

Do you think that what we are looking for is validation? I think we all want to be seen, heard and understood. Right. And I think when you have that, you're able to, even if you disagree, you're able to sit in that space of being okay. So like me and you could fundamentally disagree on something, but if you said to me, you know what, I know that we're on totally different pages about this, but I can really see and understand your perspective and I really respect that.

I would be able to sit in that space of being like, yeah, okay, I don't need to push it. I don't need to feel, you know, any type of way about it because there's respect there. It's kind of, it's okay to have differences of opinion. That desire to be seen as a big factor that drives conflict, especially, you know, when people get in that pattern of,

just kind of getting louder and saying the same thing again and again and again and again. You know, we do that because we're not feeling heard. So we keep saying it hoping that we will be heard. Yeah, and I think we also sometimes keep saying it because we want to be right. I think the ego part of it is so – the ego part of it plays such a big role and I think it takes like a lot of emotional intelligence and a lot of being able to step back from yourself to go –

like what's more important in this situation in a relationship being right or having the relationship and not having my partner hate me. So like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it depends on the personality and like how headstrong you are in being the one that is right. Like how stubborn you are in the relationship, but there often can be one person who is the one that backs down purely because they're not as aggressive in their conflict style or they're not as passionate about being right. But I think that that at some point is going to wear thin as well.

Yeah, it does. Well, and I think it depends on, you know, why people feeling the need. Like, is it that they're just conflict avoidant? Is there a fear that if they engage in this? Because I think there's a piece here where for a lot of people who are conflict avoidant, conflict is so scary because it feels like the relationship will end if I really speak my truth. And so part of creating really safe and healthy relationships is actually creating a space where you can have healthy conflict and know that, okay, we can do this, but it's not threatening the relationship. Yeah.

We have a couple of questions, if you don't mind me asking, that have come direct from listeners when we said we have a sexologist on to answer all of your deep, dark and burning questions. Sex after baby. Is it normal that it is always awful?

So my first thought is like, what does awful mean? Because like that's a big, that's a big scope. It's a big scope. I think for a lot of people it's either scary or it's the sensation is different because things are not the same. I almost feel like if you expect it to be identical straight up, you've got to really like reassess your expectations around sex. Yeah. It's scary.

often influence, you know, how soon has it been after the baby? Like maybe there is some pain initially, but you know, if there is, if awful is meaning pain and the pain is kind of consistent ongoing, then it's worth seeing someone about it, seeing a doctor. If it's got to do with the fact that you just don't want it for a period of time, that's really normal. Like your hormones are changing, especially while you're breastfeeding. And so it's really natural, normal that

when all of these hormonal changes are happening, you're not going to want sex and that's okay. It might be a change to the dynamic in the relationship because as I said before, you've gone from lovers and partners to co-parents and that really changes things. You might feel just uncomfortable in your body for a period of time. Like there are all of these things that can make it feel really different. So yes, it is really normal that after a baby things are going to be different.

But I think if it's physical then and it's ongoing, it's important to kind of get help, seek help, maybe see a pelvic floor physio, see a gyno, like whatever it is that you need to do to get that support that you need. If it's psychological, maybe it's about working on the relationship, but really figuring out, okay, like what does awful mean? Okay, next question. Hmm.

My partner and I are in a bad dry spell. How do I find the line between just giving up entirely on expecting sex and pressuring them to have sex? What is the right amount of indicating slash pushing to try and initiate? So this is really layered. I mean, the first thing, you know, we kind of want to say is like,

We don't want to pressure, first of all. The second thing I would say is the idea of giving up sex completely. Like if you're in a relationship and your partner has decided that they don't want to have sex, they're not interested in sex. And like we talked about before, you know, if you're the one who's initiating, it can feel very, you know, you can feel really rejected. It can be really upsetting, especially over a long period of time. If you're wanting that closeness, you're wanting that connection and they're not wanting that from you, it can be really difficult. But

To decide to just give up sex is a really big call if sex is something that's important to you because sex is like it's not just about the physical act. There's so many other things that sex means to people. It's passion. It's connection. It's desire. It's creativity. It's energy. It's like a big part of our life and our life force without getting, you know,

to woo-woo down that road. Energetically, it's a big thing for people. And so to say, I'm going to stay in this relationship, but I'm just going to accept that there's no sex, that's a big call. So I'd be thinking, that's something you really want to think about. If you're going to navigate this with a partner, you really want to start by having open conversations around the

Kind of like what I was saying before, what does sex mean to you? Because is it that they're not wanting sex or is it that the sex that you're having is not worth wanting? Is it that the type and quality of sex is not the thing that they're into? Because this is the thing. When it comes to sexual satisfaction in a relationship, what we've found is it's not so much about how often you have sex. It's about the quality of the sex when you have it.

So exploring what does sex mean to you? Do you actually want to have a sexual relationship? Do you still feel attracted to me? Do you desire me? Is that something that you want to work on together? So exploring that with one another. But then if that's not something that your partner wants to explore and that's within their right, you know, like someone can say, you know what, I just don't want sex anymore. I'm not interested. Maybe sex isn't my thing or it's whatever it is.

They can make that decision. That's okay. But it's also okay for you to then decide, well, what does that then mean for me? If you want to keep the relationship and many people decide we have a great friendship, we have good emotional connection, we've created a family together, whatever it is, and you want to keep that,

Is there a way that these two things can coexist at once? Do you think it's common for one person in the partnership to be like, you know what, I'm kind of shutting up shop for now, might not be forever, but I still expect you to be monogamous to me. How are you to navigate that? That

kind of feels as though the other person in the partnership is a little bit at a dead end where they're in a lose-lose situation. Yeah, I actually know someone who's in this situation at the moment. They have no interest in having sex with their partner and haven't for years. And it's now become this like huge thing

for them. Of course. She doesn't want to have sex with him, but there is an expectation to remain faithful in the marriage. And I'm like, I don't know if you can deny it forever and expect that monogamy is just a given. Is that fair? Is it fair? Is that fair to ask someone, like, it's totally fine if you don't want to have sex, right? That's your call. But you making that choice, that's

Is that fair to say to your partner, so I don't want it, so therefore that's a part of your life. You have to shut down. That's a part of who you are that you can now not explore. Like it's okay if you don't want it, but what does that mean for them? It seems like an incredibly hard thing to navigate if you've gotten to that place in a relationship. I think a lot of people would be there though. A lot of people are there, but a lot of people, I think we're in a time where

that you can choose the relationship you want to have if sex is something that's important to you and I think look a lot of people are afraid to have this conversation but if sex is something important to you then why don't you talk about opening up the relationship with certain agreements in place that can make it feel safe enough right because

is it fair to expect someone to turn off a part of themselves because that's not something that, and this is the whole thing about marriage and monogamy. So yeah, it's really hard. I think we're living in a time where there is more freedom. There's more ability to choose what a relationship looks like for you. But I think there's a lot of fear. A lot of people have fear. And look,

You know, I work in this space and I can tell you that there are a lot of relationships where people decide to maintain the structure, the family structure, the safety, the security, the emotional connection, and they might have sexual experiences and have desire and passion elsewhere and that works for them. But a lot of people don't talk about it. Yeah. And if you look at history, right, if we look at even just the history of marriage, this has been happening forever, but it was in the form of affairs. Yeah.

And so we're in a time where rather than people getting to a point where they feel like they have to be dishonest in order to fulfill a need that is a part of who they are, why not have the conversation and create a structure that works for you? I'm not saying it's easy or comfortable.

But neither is being in a relationship where you haven't had sex for years and you feel rejected and you feel lonely and you just consistently build up resentment.

It's so true, but it would be such an incredibly hard conversation to have because I think, I mean, it goes back to what you said earlier around the narratives that we've built for ourselves. And I think people who have a very strong narrative around monogamy and marriage and like, but this is the commitment we made through sickness and in health and whether I want to fuck you or not, like you have to stick it out. And opening up a marriage feels very radical to some people. Yeah. Hence why affairs do happen. Yeah.

And it's interesting you say that because I think when we talk about sex, sex and society and culture and religion, they're so intertwined. And so when we think about marriage and monogamy, there are so many cultural influences that have an impact on how we see it. Yeah. So how we see things like marriage.

sex outside of the marriage because culturally, like, you know, it's different everywhere you go in the world. When you think about sex and relationships and all of this stuff, it varies greatly. And so religion and, you

society and culture have such a huge part to play in how we think about this stuff. It's really fascinating, isn't it? Lucille, thank you so much for coming and being a part of the podcast. I mean, I know this is probably an episode that has been very valuable to people who have been in long-term relationships.

But I honestly think that like so many people face these phases and moments where it's like you're either going to make it through this as a couple and come out the other side or you remain in this like sex relationship purgatory even if you stay together as a couple and that's something that never gets resolved. But yeah, we loved speaking to you and for anybody who wants to get your book, we'll put all of the details in the show notes and where can they find you? You can find me on Instagram, which my handle is just lucille.shackleton.

Go find her. Thanks so much for being a part of the podcast. Thank you for having me. Thank you.