Catherine de’ Medici (Radio Edit)
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Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French queen Catherine de' Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Associate Professor in Early Modern History at Northeastern University London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially queenship. And last but not least, she's an expert on the history of the United States.

And luckily for us, she's also the author of the incredible Blood, Fire and Gold, the story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici. It's Dr Estelle Perronc. Welcome, Estelle. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about Catherine. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV, on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, Have That News For You. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD, Scatterbrain. And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the Ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaparralco Sandy. Hi.

Hello, thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment, I thought I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I'm an expert and read my book, Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant, but I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am.

You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person. It all went through that genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me. That's brilliant. Okay. We've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast. I don't think I can do Shappi. I love your work, but I don't think I can be as funny as you. I'm sorry. Well, neither can I.

Do you know the name Catherine de' Medici? She's quite famous from history, but... I thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history-obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de' Medici and not de' Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian. And there we go. She is Italian. She is Italian. Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So, what do you know? MUSIC

This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de' Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in The Serpent Queen. Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother-in-law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Reign, all about Mary, Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilisation VI.

But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out? And what's it like to have a pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning.

You've heard of the Medici family, Shappi, actually. The name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation. Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals. They didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status. So the Medici family were bankers and they rose to power and prominence. Good people. Yes.

Morally sound. They became very wealthy, as you said, and they were given titles. So then it created lots of problems and, you know, rivalries.

And Catherine de' Medici is going to be born into that very important family, but also a very scheming family. Yeah. And Florence is their home. Florence is their home. And they're going to become dukes of Florence and grandjews of Tuscany. So Catherine was born Caterina. Yeah. So your question, Shappi, about Catherine. Yeah, she was born Caterina, Caterina de' Medici. Yeah.

Our father is Lorenzo II de' Medici, and he was given the title of Duke of Urbino by his uncle, the Pope.

But he didn't have the land. He had to fight the actual Duke. So sorry. So his uncle, the Pope... It's giving him a title. That wasn't his to give. It's like stealing a dress from your neighbour and giving it to your wife. Yeah, and then saying, you now need to move into that house. Yeah, you now need to go and fight the neighbour. But you have to put it into context of Italian wars. So when I say, let's be fair to him and the Pope...

It was contested. They're into the second Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble who is royal. Yes, she's royal. Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne. So she is from... Can you say that again, slowly? Madeleine...

de la Tour d'Auvergne. I love her name. Such a beautiful language. I know, it's like I've said je t'aime to you, right? But Madeleine is from French blood, so she's a very important royal woman. So we can imagine that her childhood, Katerina's childhood, would be... Amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous.

Not the case, Estelle. Not the case at all. Unfortunately for Katerina, she lost both her parents. Her mother died. Honestly, we say fever. It's after giving birth. So she died of childbirth. She died 10 days later. And her father, who had to fight this Duke of Urbino, died of his wounds from the battle. So at three weeks old...

She was an orphan, but also the heir of a very massive fortune and wealth. Yeah. But what's tragic, I think, for Katerina is the fact that then she's going to be taken by her grandmother, but her grandmother is going to die the year after. They're not a very robust family, are they? No, no. Then she's going to be with her aunt.

And again, she's going to die as well. And the Pope. Her great uncle, isn't it? The great uncle is going to make sure that she is protected and well-educated. What was his name? Pope Clement VII. Uncle Pope. Uncle Clem. It's a life of turmoil and of great heartbreaks. She lost everyone she loved or could have loved. And she was massively a political pawn.

So how do you think the Pope, her uncle Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman. She's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan? Oh, you know what? I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence, self-defence classes. But I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found somewhere.

Is that am I right? So to marry off? Some bozos found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong. No, don't wish you were wrong. Because I don't think it's... She fell in love. Okay. She's going to have a wedding in Marseille, in Notre Dame de la Garde. This little girl who lost everyone. His name is Henri, right? Henri, yeah. Okay. All right. I'm not going to honk my problematic marriage collection. Sorry. But I am going to say, 14 is very young.

Just psychologically and developmentally. But at a time, I understand. Between us and anyone listening, it's also the age my grandmother got married. OK, all right. We can perhaps update the name because she was Caterina de' Medici. But now she's Catherine. Well, Catherine. OK.

No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. OK, so we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope. Already a very dramatic episode of Married at First Sight. But then the drama really ramps up because another woman enters the marriage. It's all very Lady Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane, Diana de Poitiers. Diane de Poitiers, yes.

So this woman is very important. She's a noble woman and she's a widow. She's going to become the tutor of Henry, the young man. She's going to teach him. She was supposed to teach him. Is he a bit Macron? Well, she's 19 years older. Yeah, 19 years old, totally Macron. And she's going to teach him more than languages and classical studies. And she's going to become his lover. Okay. She's queen in all but name.

And the problem, of course, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem, that Catherine is not conceiving a child, so she can't provide the air that is needed. And so that's the pressure as well. Indeed, she's not conceiving. But what's going to be very interesting is obviously they're going to try all the treatments possible for this, including like drinking donkey's urine. But what happened was Catherine heard all the rumours against her because she couldn't conceive.

So she goes to see the king, Francis I, François I. And she gives this speech where it shows you how intelligent she was. Am I saying that she's not genuine? No, I'm saying she's genuine, but you can be genuine and smart, all right? I understand it's not good for you to have me as your daughter-in-law. And because I love you, you know, I'm paraphrasing. And because I love you so much and respect you so much and you're like a father to me, I will accept whatever you want to do with me. I put my fate in your hands.

And François, who had thought about the king of getting rid of her because now she's dauphine and she's not good enough really for Henry. He's thinking, wait a minute. This woman is very devoted to me, to my family. And he really liked her. They enjoyed hunting together. They were riding together. She's someone who's very close to the king.

And he told her, no, I'm not going to do that to you. But the problem is going to tell her, but we have a problem, Catherine. I need you to give me, well, not him, but he needs an heir for his dynasty. Because it's a very important thing, right, in the 16th century, as we know, to have, you know, a full dynasty. And that's where, for Diane, Diane is starting to be scared because right now she only has a little girl, young teenager, right?

And she can fully control her. But what if we get a new wife? It's a new princess. She's more beautiful. Henry becomes in love with her. So then Diane is going to help Catherine. And that's why I want to tell you guys, she helps Catherine conceive.

As soon as Diane helped the couple, it worked. And they have how many children? Ten. Seven are going to become adults. So the ten children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the ten children, the sons, so seven survive. The sons are François, Charles, Henri, Hercule. Who becomes François as well. And then the daughters are Elizabeth, Claude and Margaret. And Marco.

who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip II of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty, Shappi. Ten kids, seven survive. But in 1547, King Francois I died. So the king who had taken her under his wing and taught her to ride. Another person on her side that died. Yeah, that's it. But she is elevated. Her husband is now the king of France, so she is the queen of France. Yeah, but Diane is the queen. Ah!

Come on. I know. Is this where we find Catherine de' Medici, Queen Consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics? If I'm honest with you, I think she's really much on the back seat, right? She's never shining during his reign. Too.

Towards the end, yes, she's going to play a very important role. Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Françoise, to the Duke of Guise's niece, and her name is famous to history. She's Mary, Queen of Scots. Her daughter-in-law is Mary, Queen of Scots.

Catherine. Oh, that's adorable. Yeah. But we'll do Mary another day. Different episode. That blows my mind that like Catherine and Mary Connors got hung out. Catherine is now learning about oratory. She's learning about politics. She's also learning about another O, the occult. Shappi, have you ever heard of Nostradamus? Yes. Nostradamus was one of her advisors. No. Yeah.

My knowledge of history is so Swiss to cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before. Yeah, he does feel very medieval. To be fair, I would have thought the same if I didn't know. But he's banging around at the French court for some reason. Imagine that, wandering around. Oi, let's go have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short. Nostri? Nostri? Nostri? Nostri?

Damus. Damus. Damus. Nobby. Nobby. In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesies to his queen. He says, the young lion will overcome the old. In a field of combat, in a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden cage, two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death. Oh.

Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading or whatever. But supposedly Catherine also dreamed of it. So supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her husband's going to die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust. Yeah. And then he wants a revenge. So he does it again. And this time it goes through his eye. Yeah. The lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain.

And he... He died in 10 days. Henri, her husband, is dead, which means Diane de Poitiers, out. Yes, that's the revenge. Yeah. Diane is out.

And she sends a letter to Catherine to apologise for all the years of humiliations. Yes. So Henri is dead. The king is dead. Long live the king. Her son is now king. And Mary Stuart is queen of France. Right. So Mary, queen of Scots, is now queen of France. Francois is king of France, but he's only 15. Shappi, you've got a teenage boy. I've got a teenage boy who is very into politics. OK. How would he do at ruling the country? I think at 15...

he would build really interesting town centres. LAUGHTER

So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother, Catherine de' Medici, who's now really running the show? Well, at that time, no, she's not yet very much running the show. And that's probably because of Mary Struth's family, the Guises. So she has very powerful, very powerful uncles, the Guises. So the Guises, G-U-I-S-E-S. Yes, the Guises. But Catherine is going to try, she's going to fight to remain an advisor to her son. And he's going to accept this.

But their relationship between her firstborn and herself, they're good. They're not very strong. He also really loved, I think he's the only husband that, you know, I can say that about Mary Stuart. He really loved Mary. And so his allegiance is going to go towards his wife and her family. So Catherine here is not really gaining much power, but she's growing in terms of like, she asked to be called Queen Mother of France. And that is a title that has never been given before.

And it's a very important title because in the title you have queen. I want to tell you that before Francis I had his mother, she was mother of the king. Yes. And you see the difference between mother of the king and queen mother. And that's an importance, a title she gives herself.

And that's going to have more and more importance in the years to come. There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family. So that's Mary's uncles. They're pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons who make delicious biscuits. They're led by Antoine, king of Navarre, which is Spain or sort of near Spain, Navarre. Navarre is a small territory between Spain and France. And as highlanders,

had such a huge diplomatic importance for centuries. So Antoine and his brother Louis Condé. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They are on opposite sides politically and religion-wise because the Bourbons are the Protestants and the Guises are Catholics. And they're royal blood. Both of them have like princes of blood in them. It's very important because when you're a prince of blood, it means you have a right to the throne. Then more bad news. François II suddenly becomes very unwelshappy. Yeah.

And Catherine, having seen her, or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen. Her big boy. Yeah. And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to Wild King and trying to prep the next one. And he's only nine. He's nine years old. Wow. Yeah. But they're quite sensible at that age. Well, OK, so your 15-year-old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would a nine-year-old do? Ask his mummy. Exactly. OK.

You sound like Catherine. I sound like a mother. Which son is this then? It's Charles. It's going to be Charles IX of France. He's totally, utterly under the control of his mother. And Catherine, she's become the matriarch of a family. We do now have the French wars of religion. Yes. And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here. But they kill over 2 million people. Yeah, over 30 years.

Yeah. Three decades, sure, but millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Huguenots. And Catherine's

I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling. She's ruling at that time. She rules. Yeah, she's in charge. We have to now put this into the context of the time, right? So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially, and then there's a peace treaty. And then they start again. And then they start again. They always start again. There's always a mean where...

That's one thing about Catherine, like her dark legend, and even you see it in The Serpent Queen, is like she's the one instigating those wars. She's not.

It's not good for them to live in a realm where there's constant turmoil. Yeah, it's expensive. It's terrifying. You can't trust who's on your team. Exactly. You don't want wars ever. But we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassy where the Huguenot worshippers...

And on their way back to Joinville, they're going to see that the Huguenots are worshipping not outside of the town, but inside the town. And it's against the law. And they decide to kill all of them. The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orléans in 1563.

There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Amboise. Yes. And then that treaty does not last at all. And this war continues until 1598. So from 1562 to 1598. This is the political context in the middle of Catherine's rule is horrifying wars between... And her sons, yeah. And her sons, yeah. They don't have peace. Yeah. Yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific. The horrifying event, the key event is called St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. It's in 1572. Yeah. Yeah.

Catherine is often blamed for this. Absolutely. So this massacre is that she wants to bring peace to France and she's going to give her daughter, her third daughter, Margaret, to Henry of Navarre, who's a Protestant. And the wedding is going to happen in Paris and they're going to invite all the Protestants. So all Protestants and Catholics are in Paris to celebrate the wedding. And so far, so good. But the night of 23rd, 24th of August. 1572, isn't it? 1572. Thank you, Greg.

The Guises have an opportunity to avenge their father's death in 1563. Because he'd been assassinated. He was assassinated in 1563 by Admiral de Coligny. He's going to ask for refuge...

to Catherine de Medici, who's going to grant it. But then what happened next is that the Guises have lots and lots of support. They even have their own private armies. And they start killing. It's the massacre of Protestants, thousands and thousands. And it doesn't stop in Paris. It goes to Rouen. It goes to different cities. And Catherine is blamed for it. People said Catherine started it.

Catherine is the one who organized it, who plotted it. When Catherine is the one who actually opened the doors of her house with Charles, her son,

to save as many Protestants as possible, including Sir Francis Worsingham, the English ambassador of Elizabeth I. There's no one in the 16th century who is a nice person in power. You have to be cruel. You have to be ruthless. To survive. 1574, King Charles dies. Her son dies again. She's now on to her third son, another Henri. Always a spare. So you've got Henri, he's having his go as king.

Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Shappi, do you know why? Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, is he? No, weirdly, he was king of Poland for a bit.

Oh, well, we all do. Yeah, of course. Just as king of Poland. I've been king of Poland. It's like the Duke of Edinburgh Award. So, Estelle, can you tell us about Henri, the new king of France? Henri III of France. He was elected king of Poland. And when Charles died, he had to smuggle out of Poland to go back to the French crown, which was awful because... Can you imagine being ditched by your king? No, but it was a massive diplomatic problem here because...

Catherine was like, come back here! And he's like, they're not going to be happy. So, Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed François, Duke of Anonçon.

But Francis Hercule sadly dies aged 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands. So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe. She is the grandmother of Europe, yeah. She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know. Well, she's the grandmother of the infanters of Spain. Yeah. Because she married her first daughter to Philip II. Yeah. And they had two daughters. And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? Absolutely. France and Spain are superpowers. And then she has people in Lorraine and Tuscany. She is the grandmother of Europe. Yeah.

And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point, not like elderly, but she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid-1580s or so? Well, for her, it's very hard because in 1585, there's the Eighth Religious Civil War that is triggered, obviously, by the death of her son, her last son. Also, you have to realise that now, you know, she's counting her kids. Oh, my God. And there's still Henry, but Henry and herself, so her favourite son,

Right.

And Catherine is going to get closer to the Guises, wanting to preserve the Catholic faith ultimately in France. And Henry III is going to commit a very horrible thing. He's going to order the murder of the Guises. And Catherine de Mechie is going to know that's the end. I think she really gets very ill at that time. So it's December 1588. She gets very ill and she has nowhere to recover because the country is in...

Honestly, it's hell. France is hell at that point. And she dies on the 5th January 1589. And I'm so glad she didn't see her favorite son, the beautiful Henry, murdered.

He's murdered a few months later, in August 1589. Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he? He's assassinated. So she dies aged 69, France still ripped apart by a religious war, her son is murdered. And the question, I suppose, is how does France cope without her stabilising influence? But she's not managed to stabilise everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty? It ends, because obviously Henry dies in 1589 as well. It's the end of the Valois, and then you have Henri de Navarre

with his wife Margaret of Valois, who become king and queen of France. That's the end of the Valois dynasty. It's a life and a half, isn't it, Shappi? It is. We've gone through that. Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. Wouldn't you, if you had all that money, just sit somewhere quietly and chill? Yeah. Just breed puppies. Wow. I know. But the thing is with Catherine is she was so...

alone in the world. Absolutely. Clearly had massive attachment issues and everyone that was like related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful. Yeah. That's the only way she would, like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love, they feel power is the only thing that will sate them.

And as we all know, that always leads to disaster. Yes, it does. It does. Well, there we go. That was quite wise of me. That was very wise. Very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye. The Nuance Window! Right, it's time now for The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Shappi and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes, tells us something we need to know about Catherine de' Medici. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr Estelle.

Well, I would like people to remember that Catherine is not the dark queen. All of this is absolutely untrue. The first thing is the fact how much she loved her children, but also her grandchildren. She wrote loving letters to her granddaughters, the Spanish granddaughters. She sent them gifts, monkeys, part of these gifts. I know, quite unusual. Not unusual for the time, if I'm really honest with you.

She was not perfect. And Greg, you are totally right to point it out. To be in power, you have to be ruthless. But she was not this horrible woman who poisoned anyone to get power. She was not this woman who created, you know, all the wars of religion. When you look at French books, it's always like Catherine the Midget is full. And I think it comes because of, honestly, xenophobia against Italians, unfortunately, that, you know, prevailed in the 17th and the 18th century.

Gravely. So it is quite important to remember Catherine as someone who truly loved her children, her grandchildren, and who tried to do her best for France and her family. Thank you very much. Beautifully said. That was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed, Estelle, your presentation.

for her. Thank you. It's been lovely and you've made me like her too. I'm so happy. Thank you. Okay, well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Shappi. And listener, if you want to hear more of Shappi, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags-to-riches tale. Or, of course, the ancient Olympics episode if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on. And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of

And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the excellent Dr Estelle Paranc from Northeastern University London. Thank you, Estelle. Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun, honestly. And in Comedy Corner, we have the sensational Shaparak Korsandi. Thank you, Shappi. Thank you so much. It's been fab.

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go invent the Giza biscuit to rival the Bourbons. Bye!

Hello, this is Marian Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds called Now You're Asking. Each week we take real listeners' questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets, or the lack of anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain. Join us, why don't you? Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds. Thanking you.

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