Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hey, welcome back to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. Our podcast is committed to you, the leader, the wannabe leader, the person that wants to be led well. We want to add value to you so you can multiply value to others. My name is Mark Cole and...
Today, on this episode, John Maxwell is talking about five ways to win with people. I can tell you, I've never seen a more charismatic leader and a more gifted leader at connecting with audiences with or without a microphone than John Maxwell. So as he talks about these five ways to win with people, he's going to share with you that relationships are the foundation of leadership. John says it like this.
Learning how to build these relationships and win with people is key. It's essential to your leadership. So after John shares his lesson, my co-host Chris Godey and I, we will sit down and navigate with you on how you can apply what John has taught us to your life and your leadership.
If you would like to download the free bonus resource. Now, by the way, let me remind you, the free bonus resource has reflection questions at the end. For all of you that's newly listening in 2025, welcome. You're welcome.
For all of us that have paid the price to get here to make the podcast what it is, this is a new feature that I am so excited about. Go check it out in our bonus resource. You can get that bonus resource or watch this episode on YouTube by going to maxwellpodcast.com forward slash win. Now, here is John Maxwell. Relationships are the foundation of leadership.
In other words, people won't go along with you if they can't get along with you. So let's talk about it. What is it in a relationship that really allows a leader to have a solid foundation to lead people really well? I wrote a book several years ago that's been a very practical, popular book on 25 ways to win with people.
And it's just a book about what do you do to get along with people? What do you do to attract people to you? Because leaders are, are people magnets. What, I mean, what is it that we do that really, um, allows people to want to be on your team that there are, you know, five of them. I would teach you that just, if you do it really well, you're just going to build solid foundations and you're going to win with people. That's for sure. So let's go. Number one is, um,
learn people's names. When I was in junior high, my father gave me a book to read by Dale Carnegie, which is How to Win Friends and Influence People. And as a seventh grader, when I read that book, he said, the name of a person is the sweetest sound that they'll ever hear. And so he was very strong on that.
on how to remember names. In fact, when I was a junior in high school, my father and I took a Dale Carnegie course together on remembering names. And I've made it a practice to really know how to do it. And let me tell you the secret of remembering names because I read people say, oh my, I'm just not any good at that. And the way that you remember names is you put the picture and the name together. See, if you're at a party and you're moving around and you meet this person, you meet that person, you know, after 30 minutes, you've met 30 people.
And there's no way that you can remember those names because you saw them and you, yeah, that's your name. And then you're with someone else. But what would have happened when you met with them if you said, let's take a picture together? And you just do a little selfie and then say, what was your name? And you put their name on that picture. Now, what will happen is the moment that you put the name and the picture together, once you associate these, then all of a sudden you can remember the names.
Because there's something visual about once you can see that face and the memorization of that name is better. So I just want to encourage you. I one time led an organization where I literally knew over 4,000 people's names.
I mean, I could call them my name and it was life changing. I mean, these people just, in fact, they did an interview one time on the, on what I had built and, and they came out and said, you know, what is the secret of a success? And I don't know what they were looking for, but most of the people, they just looked at the interviewers and said, well, he knows our name. He knows who we are. And it's just a, it's a powerful way to connect with people. Number two, if you want to really win with people, you need to compliment people in front of other people.
In other words, it's one thing for me to come and say, "Hey, I think you're doing a really good job." And by the way, a private comment and compliment, it's very encouraging, but a public compliment is highly motivating. And especially what I learned is if you can do that with their family or their closest friends, I make it a real practice. I remember recently I had one of my most important team players
He had lost his father. And so I purposely went to the funeral to tell the mother and the siblings of this person how much Mark helped me. And it was such a joy to have 10 minutes to say, do you understand, the mother, what your son has done for me in my life? And complimenting him in front of people he loved, it was like magic. Number three, practice what I call the 30-second rule. This is so simple.
In the first 30 seconds that you're with somebody, compliment them. Say something kind about them. It may be the very fact that you've just been looking forward to seeing them again. It's been a while and you've thought all day, man, I'm going to get to be with you for a few minutes. We're going to be able to have a conversation. But it's that first 30 seconds. Make sure that you say something kind, positive, wonderful, beautiful about that person.
Um, that's just absolutely huge. Number four, look for the best in others. Now let's start with the negative. Okay. We all have a bad side. We all have a worst in our life. And I don't know about you, but I really don't want to be judged or valued by my worst day. And I've had some days that were really bad. I've had some days that I didn't do well.
And I've had some days where if a person saw me and they judged me based on my behavior that day, they would say I'm not a nice person or they're certainly not wanting to be my friend. I would like for people to understand that I'm human and I have my bad days, but I want them to see me and look for the best in me. There is something highly...
encouraging about that. With my grandchildren, with my nieces and nephews, I give them all a nickname. For my daughter, she was the apple of my eye. For my son, he was my number one son. I always was giving them visuals and expressions that would just basically say, I see the best in you.
And what I've discovered is if you see the best in people, you receive usually the best in people. Just as honestly, if you see the worst in people, you get that negative side also. And the last thing is, and this is huge, just let people know that you need them. I think a lot of times leaders make a mistake of wanting to make sure that the people know that they need the leader. And of course, people need leadership. If you're leading people, you have a very important role in your life, and honestly,
they do better because of you. But I want you to flip that. I want you also to understand how much you need them. Here's what I know. There's something beautiful when you can look at your people with integrity and say, I really need you. That will literally bring the best out of them. So there you have it, five ways to win with people. Take a one or two of those and practice it daily. I promise you,
People will connect with you like they never have before.
Hey everybody, Ryan Leake here and I've got some exciting news for you. Data Grow is just a few weeks away and it's happening on March 19th in Orlando, Florida and I cannot wait to see you there. I'll be talking about my new book, How to Work with Complicated People. And let me tell you, this message has the power to change the way you lead and live. And it's not just me. John C. Maxwell is going to be in the building, Tim Tebow, Stephanie Chung, Jesse Itzler.
and an amazing lineup of speakers will all be there pouring in to you. But here's the thing, seats are filling up fast, so if you haven't registered yet, now is the time. Don't wait. Make the decision today to invest in your personal growth. I'll see you, my friend, in Orlando, Florida on March 19th. Let's grow together.
Hey, welcome back, everybody. Chris and I are just sitting here listening and thinking about all that John's talking to you. I can't wait to get into it with you, Chris. But I was reminded of Simon Sinek's quote that says, strong relationships are the foundation of high-performing teams. And all high-performing teams start with trust. And I think the way that John wrote the book, 25 Ways to Win with People, I think the way he's taught this lesson and lived this lesson out
really is centered around this concept that there's got to be trust developed in relationship. And so you start your relationships, you maintain your relationships with a passion to win the relationship. So that what? So that you can have trust and do some great things together. So anyway, I'm glad to be here with you today. Love that. The proper motive is behind what you're saying right there. And it is trust is the currency of all leadership. And so I love that quote and I love this topic.
I'm going to have to be honest with you. I read the title and you said, hey, would you come join me on the podcast? And I thought, this is going to be so easy. This is right up our alley. We got this. And then John goes to point number one, which you and I are going to talk about, which we are horrible, horrible about, which is, man, we have to learn people's names. And so we're going to dive right in. And I don't know where this is going to go, but I hope those that are listening, watching along, maybe you're driving a car going, yeah, me too, because I'm horrible because John is the master of
at this and he talks about it and number one learn people's names it's a small thing right but it's so profound i'll share this story and then i want to talk about how you have either taken a lot of flack from john and gotten better or you've just decided to grow and get better at this but i am as you i have a hard time remembering names yeah so sarah my wife is like listen you are a professional
John has taught you how to do this. You need to start remembering people's names. I was like, all right. Because I have a habit of calling everybody buddy. It's horrible. It's buddy. Yeah.
She goes, you don't need to go around calling people buddy. I'm like, okay, I got it. A little pregame talk, right? So we go out and let's say that we were going out to dinner and the gentleman's name was Mark. And I was like, hey, Bob, man, how was the week? And we get in the car afterwards and the conversation in the postgame talk was go back to saying buddy because I'm horrible with names, right? But it does. It does show respect. And John talks about it. Like people just like to hear their name and people –
want to know that you know who they are. So talk a little bit about this because this is important. And all joking aside, we do need to get better. But you and I, we kind of were like, hey, what was his name again? And we go back and forth. How have you worked on this? And why is it so important when we want to...
with the right motive win people. Yeah. Well, Curtis, no, I'm just kidding. This is Chris Goody, not Curtis. That was probably real because in meetings around the office, he calls us all by the wrong names. Yeah, before we get serious, let me tell you what to do and what not to do in remembering people's names. One, don't get a Jared, Jeremy, and a Jake on your team because that's extraordinarily confusing. No doubt.
In fact, I hire Chris's. We've got Chris Robinson, we've got Chris Goady, we've got Chris Fuller, we've got all these people on our team.
And then there was a time that we were hiring just Lindas. There was a time we hired just Kims. I had to change my executive partner's name from Kim to Kimberly because we had too many Kims running around here. That's so true. So your solution for everybody out there. Hire everybody with the same name. That's the first thing I do. What's your name? Oh, it's one people on our team. There's a chance I'll remember your name. And then don't hire confusing people's names that are too close. Jared and Jeremy is way too close to keep it all together. That's so good.
And I'm laughing and crying all at the same time because there are some truths to that. I don't have a lot of integrity with this. We have 56,000 certified coaches, speakers, and trainers, and I love every one of them. And I've met many of them because all of them come into Orlando at least once for their certification process. We've got some that has been every year.
And it's really hard for me. I'll tell you, to give people that relate to you and I, Chris, a little bit of hope and a little bit of encouragement. I have found that what also works for people is remembering an experience, a conversation. And if you'll give me a story or a component of a story, somehow that visualization of a story is
I can relate and remember to much greater than Bob or Jim. And so what I try to do is when I find somebody, I may not remember their name. I'll go, hey, you remember that IMC several years ago when we talked about your family? How's your family doing?
And while I agree with John and Dale Carnegie, I would never disagree with them because they are 100 percent right. The name of a person is the sweetest sound they'll ever hear. But maybe I'll add an addendum and say the second sweetest thing is for them to remember an experience or an interaction. So I work very hard to listen intently to people and get something from their story that I can remember.
Because if I try to remember the name, the whole time they're telling me the experience, I'm going, it's Chris, Mark, it's Chris, it's Chris, Cody, Mark, it's Chris, it's Chris. And so I'm taking in about 50% of your story to remember 100% of your name. And I try to take in 100% of your story. So I do want everyone to know that this is an area that I really work in and love.
I understand what Sarah is telling to you. Stephanie has finally agreed with me that, hey, man, it's so good to see you. Hey, friend, it's so good to see you. Yeah. And so not only do we have those names that mark, we also have a Greg and a Craig. Oh, and so we could go on. And this is really an internal conversation.
joke with Mark on names, but I love that, right? It's the story. It's the experience. And you're still remembering them. You're still honoring them. You're showing respect that you were present while you were listening with them. And something about them is different than the person next to them. So that's a really good takeaway. The other thing is, is that when Mark and I are traveling together, or when we know that we don't know each other's names, the other person will be like, hey, this is Mark Cole. They'll introduce them. And so there's ways that you can do it being just not
Like I did, or you calling me Curtis, where we're just calling the other person the wrong name. Well, what's funny is, again, and these are leaders that report to me, Craig and Greg. And I'll be telling something. One works on our nonprofit. One works in our for-profit world in a lot of the same leadership meetings. And I'll be saying something. And all of a sudden, I'll start seeing the leadership team kind of smirk. And I go, okay, who did I last call? It was Craig. Okay, I meant Greg. That's right.
Because y'all know who I mean because of the references. And I'm sitting here just bebopping along. So it's not only bad when you don't know the names, it's bad when you call them the wrong names. It's even worse when you call them the wrong names and don't even realize it. Don't even realize it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said something that I want to transition into another comment that John said.
You try to be present in these conversations to remember a story, a connection, something that I love that you focus on, right? I want you want to find that 1%. You want to go all in in order to connect with them. John talks about the next couple of points about, hey, how do we compliment people? And then how do we practice that 30 second rule? And I think you meet so many people. You talked about all of our coaches around the world and to be present those first 30 seconds to be able to remember story versus like you just talked about, you
Thinking about their name versus a story, I think, is really important when it comes to valuing people. I'll give you an example, and then I want you to talk a little bit about this, both on the side of sometimes it can be overdone and sometimes it's not done enough by leaders. But there are multiple different ways to do it. I'll give you some examples of how Mark does this in his leadership sitting at home.
the mail comes, get a handwritten note. When John says, man, if you can do this and you can compliment him or her as a leader in front of other people, well, I don't open the mail at my house, right? And so the family does, and they read this and they're like, man, look at this note. Look what dad's doing. Look what my husband, look what my spouse, whatever it might be. And I know you're very intentional about doing that. So are there ways to do that and compliment people?
If you're in a meeting, how do you go around and say, hey, let me tell you what, just real quick. But what I want to encourage everybody to do is let it be very specific because that's the way Mark has been illustrating this to us and living this out is, hey, thank you for this. Hey, I appreciate you like that. Like, and it's not just this blanket statement. And I think when that, when you do that, and I want you to talk about being overdone or not,
it just resonates more with the individual. It connects, it builds that trust as we were talking about with the quote.
from the get-go. So talk a little bit about this from your leadership style, where you're at and how you're leading through, you know, complimenting people the right way and that first 30 seconds of a conversation. Yeah. So the first 30 seconds absolutely, I think applies to new introductions or people you hadn't seen in a while or tense situations. You need to get something out there, positive, encouraging, uplifting in 30 seconds, just sets a tone for the rest of the conversation. Yeah.
When we talk about complimenting people in front of other people, I see that more of people that I have a lot of access to, a lot of expectation from, that I need to make sure that the world knows. What I did not think that I want to pick up on, and then I'll come back to answering the question and talking about this.
You mentioned that when you give a compliment even to someone, the residual ripple that that has. I never thought about when I sent a card to someone's house that a significant other might get that. And I've never used that in the framing of writing the question because it was for the person. But the ripple effect of that just really awed me. Also.
Imagine the ripple effect when someone has worked very, very hard and you give them a compliment right before they go home and they feel like they're on top of the world. The ripple effect for the rest of the evening has it on people that I don't even know. That ripple effect is brilliant. And we don't have that in today's topic, but it's worth a conversation to have about the ripple effect of a compliment, either one-on-one compliment or in front of people. Right.
So let me do talk a little bit about this concept of complimenting people in front of people and get something out there in the first 30 seconds. I've been really gifted by perhaps my parents, by God, I don't know, but I've been really gifted that I can find something positive to say pretty quickly early in a relationship.
I have to work at it harder, believe it or not, the longer the relationship is because I feel like I've already got that out. We've been there, done that. Let me get moving until I need something hard done. And then I go over complimenting again. What those of us that are gifted with complimenting easy, and it is easy for me. I could sit here today, Chris, I could sit here today and talk about 15 things that we, if we work on well together, we'll get better at. I really do have a list, but I could easily come in here and tell you
30 things that you're killing it in right now.
So I can overplay for every frustration and challenge. I can come up with two compliments. It is natural to me. That's why the sandwich philosophy we heard for a long time. Start with positive, get the negative and then end with positive, which nobody's teaching anymore because it's become predictable. But that was very easy for me. I got two compliments for every challenge in any situation. I really do. It's a gift for me. What that does is that causes me sometimes to overuse compliments. Yeah.
So it becomes unexpected. I'll never forget. I could tell you the lady's name right now. She might listen to the podcast, so I'm not going to embarrass her without asking her. She came up to me and she says, I love working on your team. She says, but I got to tell you, I wish you would stop being so positive because I don't believe you. And I went, what? I was hurt. I was crushed. I meant every compliment that I gave. Later than that day, because that day I was kind of crushed and kind of like, I cannot believe she's disregarding it.
I sat down with her a little bit later and she had had a relationship in her life that complimented her like crazy and then misused their relationship, violated it. And so now she was suspect to compliments every time now because all the compliments secured her before. Now it insecure. It created insecurity in her.
You got to know your audience, but you need to know yourself and you need to note if you are overusing compliments and if you are not specific enough in your compliments.
I do want you to talk about not using compliments enough in your leadership, not because you don't do with your team, but you're by nature a silent processor, which by nature, this is not your behavior, but by nature, you're slower on compliments and verbiage. Just ask Sarah. She'll tell you for sure. That's very true. But your team never gives me that kind of feedback about you. You've got it figured out in a work environment. Again, don't tell Sarah I said that, but you've got it figured out in a work environment.
But there's the adverse. But I'm going to keep talking for a moment about this charismatic leader that compliments come easy and then they overuse charisma. They overuse charismatic behavior.
Because John would be that level of a person, but he's very practical in his compliments. In fact, let me take a minute here in overusing or underusing compliments. And this whole podcast right here came from Five Ways to Win with People is the topic, but it really came from the book, 25 Ways to Win with People. Book John wrote 20 plus years ago. It's a powerful book. I encourage you to pick it up today. It's incredible.
But John really has this figured out because he realizes charisma can be a friend or a foe. It can be a turnoff or a turn on. It can help a leader. It can hurt a leader. And so we have taken the 25 ways to win with people, and we have created a book from that with relevant content and new application and releasing a book soon called The Charismatic Leader. Now, let me say this. I can't believe I'm even telling you this because it's not even out yet.
The book is done. My podcast family is going to hear about this book first. That's awesome. The book, Charismatic Leader by John Maxwell, is available for pre-order right now. In fact, Jake, I want us to put that in the show notes. I want us to make that book available. Maybe we'll even put the link in there for 25 ways to win with people. Because today, you can learn how to become a charismatic leader that is effective. Not a charismatic leader that's unaffected. We know enough of those.
But a charismatic leader that is effective and how to use that and how to respond to that if you have a charismatic leader. But I want to come back, Chris, because I do think you can help those of us that are listening to the podcast that don't use compliments enough. Yeah.
Talks about different wiring in your leaders. That's what Mark's talking about here. I tend to be a processor where Mark will react and talk and think. I tend to be very logical, which goes, oh, well, you should have done that. Well, that's what I expected.
And through my leadership, I have had some hard conversations that people need to hear a little bit of what John's talking about here in regards to compliment and what it does not only to their production level. That's great. But what it does for their own sense of value. And in our world, what we like is for people to feel seen, valued and heard. And the only way to do that is to make sure that you are complimenting people.
So as we teach where you are not strong, you need to develop learned behavior. So it's become a learned behavior of mine to try to get outside of my head and go, well, yeah, that's logical. I should have done that. But I need to acknowledge that and I need to do it in a way that honors that individual and then be specific about it.
So where you may err on the side of it being two to one, I may err on the side of it being a half to one. And then I need to up it and be very intentional about it. So I'll have people around me that'll say, hey,
What's the temperature of the team of what they're carrying? Hey, what's the temperature of the team of feeling valued or appreciated? And have I missed it or should I? And so it's just building that accountability system. It's building the team around you where I'm weak in doing that and build the learned behaviors to be aware of it.
I think it's easier for you and I, because we live in this world of having great resources and content that John's always bringing out. That's adjusting these. And we go, Oh yeah, we probably ought to do that to where if you get outside of our bubble, people don't know what they don't know. So if Mark is mentioning something that resonates with you, that's probably how you lean in your wiring. If I resonate with you, well,
then you probably lean on my side. The great news is, is that you're going to have both of these types of people inside your team and your family, by the way, and your organization. And you need to continue to grow and develop to be able to, as Mark said, maybe back the throttle off a little bit. For me, I need to make sure I'm being intentional about pushing it forward a little bit.
And before we move to our last point today, the beautiful thing I want to illustrate right here is whether you are a charismatic leader or whether you're not, whether you are turned on by charismatic leaders or turned off by charismatic leaders, you can improve in this area. That's why I mentioned the resources a while ago. And Chris, you're a living example of that. I've never known a time, to be honest with you, in a team dynamic that you were not complimentary enough. I really don't. Again, your wife tells me that that's not necessarily true in every area of your life. But-
That's so true. I've never done it, but it's because you learned it, not because it's natural to you. Not natural. And we can even talk about how I don't even have any emotions or feelings. And that would be another time of it's not natural for me. Of counseling. Of counseling. So let's move on. So the last one, this is really important for both you and I. And I think, again, I could give you example after example of this, of Mark living out his leadership, of let people know. Right.
Right. That you need them. That is a vulnerable statement for a leader, just like, you know, leaders can't say, I don't know. Those are three very hard words. It's also very hard for them to be vulnerable and to say, I need you. Those may be another three words that are hard for leaders to be able to do that.
And yet, if we were to do that, I'm going to give you what it feels like on the other side, because Mark does this and has been doing this a lot recently in our leadership team. Not overdoing it, but saying, hey, I need you of where we're going. Hey, Jake, I need you to do this with the podcast because we want to reach more people. When leaders can get vulnerable and do that.
Man, it gives their team members, their peers, their family members a sense of purpose, a sense of we are in this together. It creates a culture of this team dynamic that I think a lot of leaders are missing out on. And you are not short of saying, guys, I can't do this by myself. Like, I need you in order for us to do this to impact these people to make a difference.
And so that is you wearing your emotions on your sleet. Some of it's natural. Some of it's very intentional. And so talk to us a little bit about why you do that as a leader, why sometimes you intentionally do it, others it's just naturally. And then the benefits for you personally, but also that you've seen in your team because of that. Well, I think that when we talk about this concept of telling people that we need them,
And a lot of this I've learned from John. A lot of this, as you said, was very natural to me to be able to recognize that. I think leaders, I would look you in the eyes if I could see each one of you. And I would say, hey, do you need people to get where you're going? And there are authentically some people that says, no, I could actually get where I'm going by myself. And I'm not faulting that.
I don't think you should ever be disingenuous with people to say, I need you, if you really don't think they do. Otherwise, you're manipulating people. You're playing with their emotions, and you are trying to get from them what you need or want, and you're just leveraging relationship. And I think the word, I need you,
should really be weighed on whether you really think that you need people. Every leader will say, I need you to get here, but some of them don't think they need people. The second question I was asked you is, do you need the current people?
In your team. So one is, do you need people or are you just on a solo venture that you can accomplish what you want? That's good. I'm not going to take that from you. But for me, what I envision my life being about, there is no way in the world I can do it without others. I need people for where I'm going in life. I need them. The second question that you have to answer, though, leaders, is do you need the people that you have around you?
Because you can count, I could look at Chris Godey and say, hey, Chris, I need you. And what I really mean is I need somebody in your position to step up and give me what I need, but I don't think you can handle that. I don't think you can do that. You're not being fair to Chris if you are in question on whether I need Chris or I just need the position and what that position should bring to me.
And every leader that uses the word, I need you, as John is telling us to do right now, really needs to do self-check on those two questions. Do I really think I need people to get where I'm going? Or can I do it on my own? Or secondly, do I need the people?
That are on my team right now. I can tell you where I am, Chris, with the overuse of that word right now. Yeah. Perhaps the overuse. I do think it's overuse, but it is with great intention. That's why I use that word. I agree. It's in great intention. I'm overusing it now. And I'll tell you right here on the podcast, right in front of all of our podcast fans, I need you. I really do. The overuse of it sometimes or the use of it.
really is a very vulnerable thing for leaders to say. You use that word. Why do leaders not tell the people around them that they don't need them if they believe they need them? One, they don't tell them because they don't need them. Back to the question one and two. The second reason they don't need them, even though they think they do, is it's very vulnerable. Because for me to say I need you means that I have an inadequacy that I can't get this done without you. And that statement of inadequacy in leadership is a daunting public statement.
It's daunting. Oh, my gosh. I've got to say publicly that I need somebody, which means I don't have what it takes to get this thing done. It's incredibly vulnerable. I think the other reason that people don't. So vulnerability. You mentioned that one. The other reason that I think don't people that know they need people and specifically need the people around them don't say it is fear. They're fearful. They will abuse people.
That need. In other words, when I say it.
I am concerned that you, Chris, will go, oh, you need me? What about a raise, buddy? Right. Or I need you? Oh. They in turn will manipulate you. They in turn will manipulate you because you are vulnerable. And I've watched a lot of leaders say, I'll tell people, but when I tell them, they misuse the statement and they take advantage of me because they've been in an environment before where they were taken advantage of either as the leader or watching somebody else do the leader. And so vulnerability, how do I say I'm inadequate?
and fear what if they begin to manipulate me is the two drivers of why people don't express that.
So when it comes to expressing it back to your question, I believe that you use words like I need you when you are the leader. They need to mean something specific to you, the person, your leader, your team may not always know what your purpose is. That's why I'm very careful when I'm using it like I'm using it now that I am extremely reflective and intentional on why I'm saying that right now.
And so as a leader using a word that John's using right here, let people know you need them. I think that's a great buzz line. It's a great number in 25 different ways to do it. I think it's very significant. And a leader that's going to utilize that really needs to believe it.
needs to overcome the vulnerability that will be there and make sure that they overcome the fear because people will accidentally take advantage of that. Yeah, this is where I want to wrap us up on this topic because those three areas, you really need to have a lot of self-reflection and journaling and thinking time through that because it is a pivotal way that we need to show people that we need them is by verbalizing it and to win with people.
As we wrap up, talk a little bit about the third point right there, the fear of people then taking us being vulnerable and turning that on us and maybe unintentionally or intentionally manipulating the situation or us as a leader. I know you, all of us have probably can think of an example right now where we feel like that has happened.
How have you worked through that? How do you put up guardrails around that so that you begin to get more and more comfortable with that third point that you talked about in reducing the fear of saying, I need you? I hope that I don't put up guardrails. I hope that I don't. And let me tell you what I mean. John's made a couple of statements that I'm going to remind us all of these statements, these quotes before him.
I would rather train people and they leave than to not train people and then stay. Cute little statement. Think about the depth of that. I would rather be real with people.
and them abuse me than to be fake with people and them align with me. Because if I'm being fake, they're aligning with a not true me. And then what is the case? And too many times, I can tell you a whole part of my career to where I was aligning people with what they thought I was rather than what I really was. And the end is always devastating for everybody involved. I would rather be vulnerable with you
and tell you I need you and you to take advantage of that, then for you to think I don't need you and may not get your best, may not get what I really need from you. It has been taken advantage of when I've said I need you people. But the times that I have said it and it gave me great reward,
far outweigh the moments to where people have misappropriated it. So much like John says, I'd rather train people in them, leave, then you don't train them and stay. I would much rather do it. So I don't set up boundaries on it. When I'm saying it right now, Chris, I can tell you, buddy, I need you. What? Bring me the blank check. I need you. I,
I need you. If you do that, I've got to count the cost and see if I can pay that right. Right. And I've had to do that, too, to where people didn't blatantly overuse it, but they tested how deeply I really needed them. And I've had it both ways. But I don't want to set boundaries because when I come to when I come to a conclusion that I need to use that statement to help us get where we need to go.
I have done my best to calculate the cost of that. Yeah, that's good. I think I'm sitting here and I'm reflecting on what you're talking about there. And it's a different, again, in personalities between Mark and I, because of Mark and the emotional way that he leads. I'm going, okay, now how do you put a box around that? And how do you structure that? And not me not having the right motive, but then how do I do that, but then yet protect myself, right? And just how we're wired a little bit differently. And I'm going-
Oh man, I wonder how many times I've said, hey, I need you, but it came across not necessarily extremely vulnerable because I had that check and
in me of trying to protect myself from the uh the what possibly could go wrong and so it's a great point for me and those that are watching and listening i hope you resonated with the difference right there between where mark is and leading open hands and my personality being a little bit different kind of guarded so yeah that's great oh it's beautiful good grief okay salem get
Get us out of this because Chris and I want to talk forever. We have a podcast listener. Salem said, problems are our friends that when we don't have them, every level of growth comes from them and opens up the opportunity. And Salem, I hear what you're saying. I think so many times we try to eradicate the problems rather than allow those problems to be our friends. So Salem, thank you. That was a podcast from Redefine the Problem. Hey,
Go order the book, 25 Ways to Win with People. There's 20 more that we didn't talk about here. Go pre-order Charismatic Leader. You're going to love this new book by John Maxowitz coming out soon. Have a great day, everyone. And don't forget, everyone deserves to be led well.
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