Zara Larsson Wants More: Confessions of a Pop Star
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I'm Brian Hyatt. This is Rolling Stone Music Now. First of all, I wanted to acknowledge the passing of both Sly Stone and Brian Wilson. You can read a lot of coverage about them on rollingstone.com. What a week. We'll definitely be memorializing them both in a future episode or episodes. But right now, I wanted to bring you something completely different.

Back when she was 10 years old, Zara Larsson won Sweden's Got Talent with a Celine Dion cover, and she went on to make her first album, 2014's One, at age 17. Since then, she's become a global pop star, with hits including the great song Lush Life and Symphony with Clean Bandit, which just had a huge revival on TikTok. She's got a new single called Midnight Sun dropping this Friday.

and a just-announced album by the same name coming September 26th. I recently sat down with her at Rolling Stone's offices for a super honest conversation about the art of hit-making, ambition, and much more. Here's my interview with Zara Larsson. That's one thing you've escaped by starting at a young age. You've never had an office job. No.

That's true. I've always been working. But you've always been working. Yes. And much worse than nine to five. Yes. But like once you, when you do something that you love and you just do it for yourself, it doesn't feel like work really. Like I don't have any hours I need to put in. Right. I mean, it must feel like work sometimes.

I'm trying to think. It actually doesn't. That's amazing. It doesn't to the point where every year in December, I think back of the year and I'm like, guys, we need to do more next year because I haven't done anything this year. You're gearing up for your next album, which is coming really hot on the heels of the last one. Is there a song on the album called The Ambition? Mm-hmm.

I haven't heard that yet, but I heard about it. I'm very curious about that, given what I know about your actual ambition. Is it about that? Tell me about that, if you can. Well, it starts basically like, I want to star on the Hollywood Boulevard. I want a billboard. I want a number one. Doesn't everyone want that? And I lay up late at night, scrolling through my phone, comparing myself. Like, why does she have all of that?

And why don't I have that? Because I feel like I got what it takes. So how come I'm still like here just wishing for things to be bigger and better? And that's the thing with the ambition. Everything's a competition and I can have a lot, but nothing is ever going to be good enough. And that is the reality of it, I think. Because when you're super ambitious, I think that's the blessing and the curse of you can have like...

So many amazing things happening to you, but nothing's ever going to be good enough for your soul or your, I guess it's ego that will never be satisfied or like full because everything is relative. So once you have one thing, you just want the next and the next and the next. And once you have a number one, it's like,

okay, but I want the longest running number one, you know, you have an album. Well, I want them, I want to sell the most albums and like, it just keeps going. And I think it's, uh, it's a part of a journey that I've been going through. Speaking of, you know, the pressure of so good and like after that and how I'm feeling now too, that I want, I still want a number one and I want a Grammy and I want like all of that. And that is a part of my ego that it's just who it's just who I am.

And a part of me just has to like accept that's the reality of being me and like living in my head and why I'm still doing what I do, but also to be present and thankful and like have gratitude. And that's just something you actively have to train like a muscle and work on. So I feel like I'm way more present and happy now than I've been maybe ever in my life. Like I feel like I'm just, well, I am a,

very happy person in general, but I just love like what I'm making. I love my friends. I love my life, but there is still that voice in my head that will always kind of be nagging on like, you can do more, you can do better, you can do bigger.

it is tough. Like, do you, do you compare yourself to the average person and be like, well, I'm a freaking pop star. I have a great life. I'm like everything. Or do you compare yourself to Beyonce where you're like, I am, I am so far from where I want to be in this. So it's both of those things at once. And I'm a competitive person. Like if I do something, I'm like, I don't want to do it unless I'm going to be number one. And like we touched on earlier, the music is so subjective and there's no like,

I have the, my opinion is that Beyonce is the best artist in the world. But my dad wouldn't agree with that. He would say like the Grateful Dead, which is something completely different, you know? Or my sister would say someone else. So my best friend would say, so it's like,

I believe that it's so hard also because music, it can be counted in numbers. It can be counted in like sales and streams and weeks on the charts and like all of that. But that's not really the soul of it or like how it touches people. But it is so easy to be sucked into that. And like I...

have been like obsessed with that earlier in my life. I think deleting Twitter was like the best thing for my mental health. But in general, it's like, oh damn, like why can't my song reach a billion in a year? Why can't I do like...

what is the thing I want it? I want it and I want it now and I want it to be bigger, but it's a balance and you just have to like accept that that's just a part of my personality. I really do believe so because if I just stopped and felt like, ah, you know what? I'm just going to like retire. I'm going to go to my country house and like start a family and

That thought is itching sometimes. But then I know if I would do that, what? I will be so bored because I also genuinely like love to make music. But also I love to make music and treat it as it's a bit of a competition. And it could be competition with myself because I have a lot to live up to.

It sounds like it's the most honest song maybe you've ever written. Oh, it is. Yeah. It is. It's very vulnerable. It's very, also I think relatable because it's not always, I think people can relate to it no matter where they are in their lives and like whatever field they're in. And to feel like sometimes I feel like, yeah, like you said, like sometimes like, oh, but it's amazing. But then the next second you're like,

I'm nothing or like I can be so much more than this to be very hard on yourself. And it's kind of, yeah, it's reflective, but like self assuring in a way of saying like, well, this is just what it is.

And probably what it always will be. I mean, you're someone who wanted to be a superstar, like bigger than Elvis Presley since you were a little kid. You want a stadium tour, you want global domination. And so anything short of that is going to be, is going to have its frustration, right? Yeah, it is. It is once again, like setting yourself up for failure in a way, because everything that doesn't feel like the biggest thing feels like a fiasco. Yeah.

It's kind of like annoying to live life that way. But yeah, like why, why would I, I just want to be like the number one. Like I want to be the, even just for a moment. Yeah. Cause I think life has its peaks and valleys, but like, just let me, just let me taste that. Just let me have it for one second. Oh,

I love this song. I just heard it. Midnight Sun is one of my, luckily it's one of my favorite songs by you and it's your newest song. It's really cool, interesting production, huge hook. Midnight Sun.

It just kind of happened. Like it was made in the first couple of days where I was in the studio with Margot XS, Eminike and Helena Gow, which is three people I've done basically the whole album with. Oh, wow. Which was also a first because previously, first of all, I haven't done like the whole project, a single whole project that I've been writing on every single song myself. Right.

It's been like 50%, maybe 60%. Like I've been in there, but I haven't really been in on every single song. And maybe I've taken the songs that I didn't write on from the people who did help me write the other songs. But now I'm like, guys, I want to write and I can write. Yeah. Let's do that. And let's also do it in a room with people that I love and trust. And I think the whole album...

just kind of happened. So we didn't plan on a sound or a vibe. I think every song started off from like a conversation. In Midnight Sun, that title specifically, I've been trying to write like

I've probably written five songs on Midnight Sun. Wow. I'm like, I like that title. Like, I really want it. Oh, that's so interesting. Because it just reminds me of home. And also, I think the more I travel and the older I get, and the more like out in the world I am, I want to be reminded of home and like my roots and, you know, a Swedish summer night and kind of like,

my country house and just also the time where, you know, we were just talking about working all the time. And I think that's the one time when I go out to my country house that I am just like,

not doing anything. It's a very special atmosphere because not often are you experiencing like a midnight sun or like it's a night where it never gets dark, but that's like childhood for me and like a sense of being free. Cause the song is about, it's kind of like a song about life and like the joy of life, but camouflaged as a love song. Like it feels like a love song, but it's more like a love song to like living. I think it's about, um,

the joy of like the small things of like walking barefoot in the grass or, you know, listening to a good song or just like seeing a beautiful sun that makes you cry. And like, you know what I mean? We were just talking about that. And Helena is also from Denmark. So she's very close and kind of understands the vibe of like the Scandinavian summer. And I think the whole setting and like the whole,

of writing with those three incredible people just brought me more to like me. Yeah. MNEK, that's been a longstanding and fruitful partnership for you. He was the first person I ever had a session with. Oh, I didn't realize it went back that far. Yeah. So what is it about, I mean, obviously Never Forget You came from that partnership. I will never forget you.

What is it about that sort of creative synergy? I think he's a genius. I think he's actually like a musical genius. Way more than I think he realizes. I think other people might realize it, but I think he doesn't know.

the scale of like his talent. And I think I was really, really lucky because as I said, my first ever session that I was writing in with other people was with MNEK and that's the day we did Never Forget You. So yeah. Good day. Yeah. Great day. So I remember walking out of that session, like, Oh, very easy writing songs with other people. Yeah.

I'm like, oh, this is what it's like. Like, okay, I can do this. But I think it's also, I was very spoiled that day because he's also a person who is like a stream of consciousness, doesn't think about anything too much. It just kind of happens in the moment. And I've definitely realized that that's how I like to work too. Just like speak it, say it out loud. Don't be afraid of it. And I think that's the...

the secret of like connecting to your creative like the creative gods or whatever like you just have to be in a state of of creative flow yeah and by doing so you just have to like sing it out loud speak it out loud say it out loud and then 40 minutes in it's like oh we have a song like usually the songs just appear it's like one second they're not there and then all of a sudden they are it's

It's like a very strange thing, but it's just also a thing of him bringing out that confidence in me, I think. Because writing songs, I think everyone is, well, I guess more or less, but kind of capable of expressing themselves. Like we all have thoughts and opinions and life experiences. And it's just, I guess the talent isn't like, how do you...

form those feelings into words and like put a melody on it. And he just kind of brings that confidence out of me. Cause I love to, I've always loved to write. Like I used to have a blog. I even think about starting my blog again. Cause like, I like to just express myself in words and I love to sing, but he, um,

He is incredible. And we share a very similar taste, which I think is important. Cause you know, music is like very subjective. There's no good or bad music, but it's just, do I enjoy this right now? And we are very similar in what we listen to and like our tastes. So I think that's, where's the biggest intersection as far as taste. I mean, obviously like he has a dance, but also a very, very like,

R&B, Brandy, Mariah Carey. Like he is a beast with the harmonies and in how to structure the landscape of a song. And he does this so naturally. So I think that's really been a fun part of having also Margo XS, who is also very dance, but more kind of like trans, rock.

I would even say like punk. She got a she got a like a band, a duo called The Basement. And they do it's very like heavy, hard hitting underground club kind of vibe. You can find me at the front. Also, like the sounds of what Margot picks out.

The drums, the kind of patterns in like, yeah, just the actual sounds. Yeah. But mixed with Uzo, who is like kind of dance, kind of R&B. And then Helena, who was very...

dreamy, very lyrical, a bit spacey and quirky.

I really feel like all the songs that we've made really have a big part of us in them. And then it was just magic happening when you combine that. I feel like it's a huge part of me in it, a huge part of Helena, a huge part of Uzo, and a huge part of Margot. And when that came together, it just became Midnight Sun. And that's also what I'm calling the album. Midnight Sun was actually the song that...

It's like the core of the album in a way. It kind of set the tone for what I wanted the rest to be. And one of the things that's really cool is the sort of a drum and bass feel to it, which is at least in the U.S. right now, it's pretty unique. I know there's been a bit of a revival of that sound, but we haven't heard a lot of that in pop right now. So that's kind of cool. Yeah. And I feel like it's very, it's very...

As a huge present that has kind of has always have in the UK. So I think just being there and working with like the people that I work with, because Zuzo is obviously from London and kind of the Jersey beat too on it. And it's like a interesting mix and like in the drop, I love that what it becomes and the vocals of just keep going. It's like a fun and a little unexpected, but still pop. Yeah.

It's interesting because dance influences the U.S. Just talking to people who basically try to write pop hits and work in that field, it's such a moving target. The U.S. market in particular. We're so trend-driven and things seem to be changing rapidly.

over like every few years. And right now a lot of it is this sort of more singer songwritery rock influence stuff is a lot of it. Um, even like rootsy throwback stuff, it's quote unquote organic, whatever that means, because we all know that things aren't, or that doesn't really mean anything, but sounds that are perceived that way. And, you know, rather than sort of trying to jump on where that's going, you're kind of sticking to your guns and doing what you do and what you want to do, which is, I think a strong choice, but how do you,

How does that kind of work in your mind? Yeah, honestly, I don't really give a fuck what other people are doing. I love that. Especially writing this album. Like I usually go into podcast mode. Like I listen to a lot of podcasts and a lot of ASMR and just kind of

tune out from what everyone else is releasing and doing and just kind of stay in my little bubble of what I like to create and do. And I think you're so right. I feel like the trends of music go up and down and, you know, it's hip hop and then it's pop pop and then it's more like singing songwriting and then it's rock and then it's dance and then it's back to the hip hop. And then, you know, so I think it all goes in cycles. Like,

But at the end of the day, I really feel like this album is also my most... It's like me. And maybe I feel that way because I am finally allowing myself to really be a part of it. And I think the older I get, the more I want to be a part of what I'm doing. Like when I started out so young, like I released my first song at 15. And by that point, I...

I was just like, hey, just put me on a stage. Like, give me a mic. That's all I care about. I just want to perform. Like, my true love is really like being on stage. And then the longer I've been doing this, the more I realize that I want to create what I do. I want to have a voice in what I'm singing. And I want to be not just a performer, but an artist. And I think that's a big difference. But I still know...

what I like and what I don't like. I feel like I've always had a say in curating what I'm singing, but now it's like, okay, what is me? What do I really want to say? And how do I want it to sound? And I think this is just the perfect taste of that. And I think maybe we'll change in the future, go a bit left, go a bit right, I don't know. But for now, and I think that's also one of the fun things about making an album is that

nothing have to be absolute or infinite. This is me forever, but this is me now. Like this is what I want to do right now. It's interesting because, um,

You've been known to have, you know, obviously four year pause. They talked about a lot between So Good and Post a Girl and then a three year pause between that and Venus. And this is by far the fastest. Yeah. So what's how deliberate was that? What's the thinking behind that? How did that kind of happen? I think it's probably one of my biggest mistakes to have had such a huge gap between my albums, especially since So Good. And I definitely had that because I felt so pressured.

of having to have this like huge commercial follow-up of So Good because it had so many amazing big singles on it. And I just felt like, you know, I fell into the trap of the second project where you have all these expectations. And I think a lot of the pressure was probably put on myself from myself.

And I must have had five albums in those four years that I was just like, no, no, no, not good enough. Let's start over. You know what I mean? And then... How many of them had versions of Midnight Sun on them? There's the question. Maybe one. Maybe two. I don't know. Yeah. But I think at that point, I was just overthinking it so much. And I think I was just so scared of not...

doing as well commercially as So Good had done. And I think I was just setting myself up for failure in that way because I forgot everything

the joy of making music and like singing and the fact that I am so passionate about songs and performing and singing. I kind of got like stuck in that, in that world of validation and like, will people love me still? And I think the older I get, the less concerned about that I get because I'm more confident. And I also have trained myself to not be so hard on myself because I

at the end of the day, like I'm important, like in the best way, even though if I would have like five number one albums, it's like, I'm still going to die. I don't know. I just, it's like, it's not that deep, you know, like I'm just, I'm here today and I'm trying to have a good time and I love what I do. So I think, um, it was also a huge, huge help for this album to have made it with a

a small group of people. Because I think back in the day, I was also doing that speed dating, meeting different writers every time. Hey, we want to write a song. And it's funny you say, you know, how trends change in that very quickly because I've been in so many sessions and the writers or the producers in the room have been like, guys,

Let's look at what's top 100 on Spotify right now so we can like try to be like inspired. And, you know, nine months or a year from now when my album is going to come out, that list will be completely irrelevant anyways and will look completely different. So I think working with a small team, a small group of people was a big change. And then when you've done that, you get to know each other better and better and better.

And, um...

I also find that writing a really good song like Midnight Sun, instead of saying, oh, this song was amazing. Let's try to let's try to do it again and let's try to do it again and maybe try to do one better. Maybe try to do it again and just keep doing that. It's like, oh, this song's great. Let's put it on the album. And then we have one take and then we did Pretty Ugly the same day. I want to be the make it hard. Want to take it too far. And afraid of night. Fuck the lady like. I'm like crazy like.

Oh, this is a great song. One take. And then we did, you know, Girl Scurr. Oh, this is a sick song. Take. Like to actually try to build an album instead of just writing 200 songs.

With no purpose. I think that's what I've done before. Like literally 200 songs? Like literally. Wow. So that's the big question. How many unreleased songs do you have? A lot. But for this album, not that many. Yeah. Cause I felt like I had, um, I was more intentional and purposeful. And you know, once we've had Midnight Sun, which we literally did the first couple of days, it was like,

oh guys, like this is magic, but we didn't try to recreate it. It just kind of happened to be, I mean, pretty ugly was the first release, which is out there. Um, doesn't really, really sound like anything else on, on the album, but it has cousins on the album and far in, in the sense of like attitude, I would say, but sonically, I think it's not like, okay, this is the representation of what my album sounds like, but I love to have that as the first single because it's,

I don't think people expected me to do that. Definitely did not sound like anything that you'd done before with that sort of Gwen Stefani-esque cheerleader thing. Everything about it was kind of a surprise. Yeah. And I kind of liked that. And I also went in with, I'm lying if I say I don't want this to be played on the radio or that I wanted to resonate with the big audience and the mainstream. But also that wasn't like...

That wasn't the most important thing. And I knew it was kind of out there for a radio song, but I think I want to do more things that are just more fun and free and just...

For me and like my audience and my live show, like what would my show look like? What would this be? What would this energy be like live instead of, oh, well, will the radio play this? I think especially now also because with social media and like TikTok, you can kind of, if you really go hard at it, you can kind of build relationships.

your own sense of community and like start a trend or you keep posting and posting like no one's really stopping you from creating a moment and I thought it was fun to be a bit yeah like to dare to do something different and I feel like this whole album is really taking me back to when I first released songs at 15 my first couple of EPs like my first album

Because then it was just about like the joy of making fun songs. Like one of my favorite songs to this day is She's Not Me, which has a part one and part two. And it's like a six something minute song. And it's one of the first songs that I released. She doesn't love you like I do.

Or like Bad Boys, which has basically no production and just like a heavy drum. Like I was just like, hey, let's let's try this. Like, let's try this. It was a lot more free and fun than what I felt after So Good, where I felt like, oh, my God, no, I have to I have to like make something that will make everyone love me. And now I feel like I'm back to just like the fun of making music.

which is really nice. Yeah, it's hard to create something great from the place of I need to make everyone love me. That's very, that's a horrible place to be. Yeah, it is. And you mentioned TikTok. I mean, did what happened with Symphony, which you've talked about, the dolphin thing, very strange, classic TikTok thing. I've been to symphonies.

I was wondering if that sort of urged you back in the studio and or changed your ideas of sort of what's possible and what's, I'm just curious how that sort of affected music you were making or the timing thereof. Yeah. It's, it's so interesting what happened. Cause the trend is bizarre and strange. I think that's just something that has to happen organically that you can't plan for, like what the whole thing was about. And, um,

I mean, all I could do was just kind of join in on it and just be like, what's happening? Like I brought the dolphins because the whole thing is just like happy dolphins, vivid colors, Lisa Frank core symphony in the background with a very like depressing message. So I think those, all those things combined, um,

made for like a function that also everyone could kind of join in on. And one thing that I thought was really amazing, though, was that the song was

was very much in focus. And I think it happened also because it was already a big hit. Like the song didn't become big from symphony, but it had a huge revival. Exactly. Yeah, it really did. Um, and for the new generation, I mean, it came out like seven years ago, which is not crazy long, but for someone who's 14, that's half their life. Right. You know, a lot of people jumped in on the trend and, uh,

I think it's incredible. Like, did I think about ways that I could kind of change my... I didn't try to change anything, but it made me realize...

that you never know what could happen. Yeah. And just kind of what can take a new life of its own. And that old songs, it's so funny because like two or one week before, I had this weird witchy feeling of like, I feel like one of my old songs are going to blow up on TikTok. Weird. I thought it would be Lush Life. I live my day as if it was the last. Live my day as if there was no past. Doing it all night, all night.

It's not too late for that. It can happen anytime. I'm sort of surprised that hasn't happened, to be honest. That's just such a perfect pop song. Thank you. I love that song. Yeah, me too. But it's timeless. And I think also symphony is timeless. And catalog songs are still, even though you have like a huge trending song and you might see it pop up more on your For You page, like Lush Life is probably, even on TikTok, it's

my most used song. Yeah. And now obviously Symphony. But, you know, the big hits, even if they're from 10 years ago, they...

they live on. They really, really do. I imagine that if nothing else, the symphony thing must have made you feel pretty good about being smart enough to buy back your catalog. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And, um, I wish I wrote it so bad. Yeah. But it's such a beautiful song and it does, it does prove that like,

The good songs will always have their moments. I think Natasha Bedingfield is also one of those like have a new generation of kids just really getting into her work. Even Jessie J, I feel like is trending at least this week. People are really discovering her again.

Not that she ever went anywhere, at least not for me, but when the new generation comes in and they discover songs that they didn't grow up listening to, I think that's a testament of like, a song that can stand the test of time, which is pretty amazing. For something like Pretty Ugly, like how does that

You know, because it's so, again, there's so many unexpected bits and you have the chanting. Like what was the first germ of that one in the studio? Like how did that come together? I think we just wanted a shouty song. Yeah. You got it. Yeah. I got it. So we were just shouting stuff and we were, we were like, what do we want to say? We want it to be like sassy and kind of like,

crazy girl like let's be free and then I think Helena like I said earlier almost every like lyric and and how we've done this is like stream of consciousness blurting out stuff in the room and she just kind of started yelling have you

a pretty girl get ugly like this. And we were like, wait, that's really cool. Yeah. And then we kept shouting pretty like this, like crazy like this, insane like this, nasty like this. And then we just, it just came together. Have you been ugly like this? Nasty like this?

But that was one of the songs that we actually rewrote the verses on. So we got back the next day and we said, I think we can do better on the verses. And then... What were the original verses like? I'm trying to think. I think they were a bit more like singy and...

Like slower, like even slower. And we're just like, I think we want to be even sassier. I think they weren't sassy enough. Let's go into sassy land and stay there. And that's what we did. You know, it's all about like...

Getting crazy, like slashing tires or crashing cars. And I mean, something I think I feel like I was very inspired by like my teenage self who just didn't have any sort of consequence. Yeah. Thinking. Yeah. You once said that you wouldn't want to have a kid like the kind of kid you were. Oh, I'm stressed. I'm so stressed. I want kids really bad, but I know if I have to worry like my parents did, I

It's just, it just can't be nice. It just can't be nice. But now I am so calm. I'm so calm. I have like a lemonade in the bar. I like to go to bed, have an Epsom salt bath. Just like I partied enough. But we also start very early in Europe in general. You know, we're like, let's go party. And it's like, you're 13.

Very much that. I mean, the fact that your mom, that you did enter showbiz and that your mom was there so much to protect you from showbiz probably kept you under reins more than if you had not been famous, weirdly.

Yeah, actually, when you put it like that, I never really thought about it, but it's true. I actually think it's true because when I was away and especially in L.A. where I spend a lot of my time and like in studios, my mom was always with me and she used to sit maybe not in the studio, but right outside, you know, she would be there on the couch. And if it wasn't my mom, it will be like my manager or somebody.

So I'm like, I always had a grown up with me at all times up until probably 19 or so was when she stopped coming with me everywhere. Like every radio station, every promo thing. Um, I've been very protected and I'm so thankful for that. Now when I look back because my mom or like my family in general, they have never, um,

They are also very proud. I guess it's a Swedish thing in a way, but like they would never, ever let me pay any bills. Like no one's like surviving off of my career in my family. They would never like if anything would have happened, they would just be like, OK, cool, like your career or your music career.

could still be a thing, but not right now and not in this way. Right. Like you are coming right back home. And, um, looking back at it, even so, like I've, it's definitely been situations where I'm like, Oh, that's kind of weird. Even though she, that she was there. Yeah. Or you meet like executives and they're like, we should do drugs. And it's like, I'm 16. Like, you know,

You know what I mean? It is very much that vibe for a lot of people. I guess, I mean, I can't really say, but I guess a bit less now, or maybe it's just the people I have around me. Like now I can choose kind of the people I'm surrounding myself with. One would like to believe that some of the bad guys got sort of jettisoned. But even so, I know for certain that there's still people out there who,

Need to be checked. But it's a it's it is a it is a crazy world. And it's also an industry where people really mix people of all ages, people of all kind of like positions of power, people from all genders.

all over the world, like really come, at least where I used to be like a lot in LA, people come to live their dreams and to make the most out of it. And those like power relationships, they don't disappear just because one person can sing. But I'm very happy now when I think, I thought it was annoying back in the day. So like, oh mom, like, why do you need to be here? But now I really get it.

And I'm thankful for that. You're touring with Tate McRae. You both make great pop songs. You both love Britney Spears, as do so many people. And there is that Britney in the year 2000 thing, right? Kind of stands out as like that's for everyone who came of age there and wants to be a pop star. Like, right. It's kind of like that. Like a pop girl.

And I feel like that's coming back. Speaking of cycles, I do really feel like pop and especially... I also feel like the girls are always dominating in pop. Probably one of the few genres where girls are really running it. And it's really having a moment right now. For me, it's always there. But in the charts, in what people are looking for, what people are looking after, it's like that. I've always...

loved like the pop star and that's why I also like Tate because she's bringing the dance she's bringing like the show you know not just to show up with a cute outfit but it's like I'm gonna give you the full package and the kind of fantasy of like this girl from a place that just came into the spotlight and became huge and Tate is young too I forget she's like 21 wow

And that's also crazy because I also feel like I've grown up and always been the youngest person in the room. And then all of a sudden you're not like going on. I'm like, oh, hey, what do you mean? She's like seven years younger than me. Like, that's crazy. But life just, life just moves so quickly. But I'm excited. Like, I really, I've always like loved a full package pop star.

Give me the visuals. Give me the drama. Give me the, the choreo and like the songs that feels like they kind of hit you in the face. And, um,

Yeah, like Beyonce. Beyonce's my number one. But even like Christina. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that it's having its moment. I'm curious what you think about AI and what, if anything, you've seen of producers and writers kind of sneakily maybe using it because I, you know, I hear all sorts of things.

I'm pretty like followed that world pretty closely. And I know like you've worked with David Guetta, who's actually super pro AI. He's like, basically like he told me like AI is going to win. Like we're just going to end up curating AI stuff. So I'm curious what you think about all that. You do. Yeah. Margo, who I'm, you know, doing the whole thing with, she's super pro AI too. Wow. I don't know too much about it in the context of,

the making of music. I think sounds and that it's interesting and like to curate the soundscape as of now, I think it has a long way to go with like the lyrics and the emotion and the substance of the song, but for inspiration perhaps. So like to create a vibe I think is there or like,

If somebody, if Margo's like writing a song and she's like, Hey, can I put your AI vocals on this? I'm like, yeah, why not? Oh, I see. Like for the demo, she changes her voice into your voice. Yeah. That's crazy. And it sounds perfect, but it sounds, you, you sense the, the, maybe my essence isn't in there, but it kind of sounds like me, you know, how I would pronounce things, say things.

um that must be so weird though i know i wonder really what it's going to be in the future because now i honestly i don't have too much to say about it i think it's more like on the producer side of things because now i feel like creatively like coming up with something creatively from nothing it just can't do that yeah but if you prompt it right and you give it like

and, and I don't know, frames to like stay in. I think maybe it can do the job, but it can't create, I haven't experienced reading something or hearing something from AI that was original and fresh yet. Yeah. Yet. Yeah. But who knows? I do love like a little chat GPT. Yeah. Yeah.

I do love that. But I think it is the future. I think we are all just going to be like, I don't know. You've seen her. Yeah. Very much that. Yeah. All our friends will be AIs in our little heads. So depressing. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want that. No, I know it is. It is depressing. It really is. And yeah.

Yeah, it is interesting, though, because we can't stop it. I feel like it's here now. And it's going to go fast. Yeah. It's going to go really fast. So maybe by the time this is out for the world in like a couple months, maybe it's in a completely different place. And like, oh, wow, now actually can come up with really profound lyrics. Like, who knows? But as of now, I don't think so. But the future, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't know how to feel about it yet. At least it always behaves itself. Unlike some producers. Yeah. True. At least of now. Yeah. You've talked with admirable frankness about Dr. Luke. How do you feel about his like return to the mainstream artists using him again and all that? I genuinely think like,

There's so many amazing producers and so many incredible, like, up-and-coming, new, fresh faces in the scene. I'm like, why? Like, there's a million other people. Is it really, really important for him to come back? I don't think so. I personally wouldn't do it because what is he going to do for...

For me or for anyone else, really. That's why I thought it was so incredible to work. I mean, I've obviously worked with Uzo for a long time, but Margot XS and the way my manager found her and it just felt fresh and new. And also more girls. Like, please, let's just have more girls in the studio and especially behind the...

the producing table. Yeah. That's a weird shortage, right? Of there's a lot of women songwriters, but not enough women producers. A lot of people have said that. A lot of people. And I think, I think you can write like your feminist songs and whatever, but I think that the, the most powerful thing you can do is to actually like put your money where your mouth is and like work with women and hire women and do all of that. So I think that's way more powerful than writing songs.

like a feminist anthem with someone who is not really like standing for those values. Just talking very generally here. Yeah, exactly. I think, I don't know, to me, it's just someone I'm not looking for. And I think I'm, yeah, I'm, it's not that I'm actively like dislooking or however you say, I'm just more, I'm just focusing on the people that excite me and the people that are out here like,

making new amazing things that are coming into the industry, ready to do something that no one's really heard. Speaking of hot takes, are you still standing by your talking in movie theaters thing? I just thought about that the other day, actually, when I saw The Weeknd's movie. Have you seen that? No, I've heard things. Yeah.

It was very necessary to speak. That movie.

Let me just say that. I think you can find like a good balance. You can be like, you know, I don't want to like disturb anyone else, but I do think it is something. That's why I love to go to concerts. Like, it's like, okay, we're in here together. Like if I'm laughing a lot and somebody else behind me starts laughing because I'm laughing, like my friends laughing, it's, it's something we're all doing together. Yeah. It's a collective, like,

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, fair enough. I do think, I'm sure you agree, it does seem important for artists to be able to have real opinions and express real things, even if they're, even if they're like hot takes about movie theaters. Oh yeah, that take was probably the most controversial take I've had. Like people got so heated. I think it's because it's such a non, like you can take a strong stance about,

And it's still not actually controversial. You know what I mean? Like people can say, people can have an opinion around it and it's not like something crazy. But yeah, that's one of the reasons why I do want to have my, I want to have my blog again. Cause I want to like say stuff. Cause that's just a part of my personality. Yeah.

I've definitely realized that I am a person who is like... Your team is like back there being like, oh God, don't say stuff. I know, right? But I think I'm also... I've learned that I like to express my thoughts into the world and that's how I see my thoughts. It's through other people and it's through conversation. Like I don't do well sitting in my room by myself,

going on and on and on, like in my head about stuff. I need to express them, see how they land, refine them in my head, express them again.

see how they land, have a conversation, refine them in my head, express, like I just see myself through people and my thoughts through people and through conversation. And it doesn't mean I'm always right. Actually, I'm very, very open to be wrong. And, uh, that's the scary part about internet. Sometimes I feel like once you've said something, it's like, Oh, but you said this two years ago. It's like, but I've changed my mind now, but on certain things, I'm just who I am.

Yeah, I mean, it's not your country, but here in the U.S. we have like the president of the United States is like feuding with pop stars. That's the latest pop crave has to write about that right now. I don't know. I think it's always been like a damn mess. But now it's like we're not even trying to. I think people have been trying to hold up a certain face, specifically politically. And I think I do think officials and any type of official, you know,

should be held to a higher standard than just any sort of civilian. Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, it's just, it's just, it's just not that. Yeah. You ever see that Britney Spears, the thing where she's chewing gum and says we should just trust and support the president in anything that's a famous book. No, I haven't seen that. We didn't go to Britney for political commentary. But finally, I mean, new album, last thoughts on just what people should expect. Oh, I mean, it's, it's a fairly short album. Yeah. 10 tracks. That's sexy. I think it's like a boom. 10 tracks. I think that's the way to go. Yeah. You know,

And I also think people will really find themselves in at least one track. I'm very proud of it. I think listen through it again and again and again. It's just really sick, great pop. And it's my proudest work yet. It really is. I'm very happy and excited for people to hear this. Can't wait to hear it. Yes. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. It was really fun. Thank you.

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