Talk Your Book: Animal Spirits Live
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Welcome to animal spirits show about markets, life and investing. Join Michael bada and then carson as they talk about what they're reading, writing and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and ben are sold their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of red house wealth management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions. Clients of red holds wealth management maintain positions in the security disgust in this podcast.

Let's excited. Come on chicago. go.

Didn't in a bar early three, dave said, thanks for for showing up. I know um a lot of folks have a lot of things going on. So up to get part of your evening is really special for us.

I know Michael then any very little introduction but by way of how we met, um I think that was really when our sales guy saw you at a conference assaulted you, which probably what the police would have called IT but after a few conversation, we think, well, maybe then not as crazy as as those guys were. And we've done this a few times together. Um I know we've got a interesting set of topics for tonight, some of which you will guess maybe some new stuff you want.

We'll make some mistakes along the way. Most of them will be mine, you want you will notice those you won't notice. There are is a very smooth of this, but appreciate you come along afterwards is anything we can answer? Happy to do IT. Um but with that microbial, turn over to you.

H thank you for the introduction. We have an editor, so we might be a little bit less smooth in person, right? So before we get into some of the media topics of the day with through the ones of the financial markets, alex, for new for people that are new to F, M investments, what's your story? How do we get here today?

Yes, it's been a weird David. I started this business about five and half years ago. Now they ve will check me on that. Our compliance using the room will check me on that with the simply that they're really great alpha generators out there who often can't find their way into to your portfolios. And what the problem isn't that there are bad generating outfits, that there's a whole business layer that needs to happen between those good ideas and ending up in everyone's portfolio. So we built the business to remove all of those road blocks and along the way of them, some great people come of some pretty interesting ideas somewhat off the wall ones like the benchmark series, which is what really brought us together here um and have helped you observe now seventeen billion dollars of your new clients assets that appreciate look after every day how many .

different managers and status will be talking here.

So right now, it's about sixty different strategies. You know there's probably some flavors of that. So few my pms in the room today will say no, it's more or less, but about sixty strategies, about eighty five of us.

We do this every day. Um and IT spanned the full gaming of as allocation asset style, primarily though in in between intentional fixed income and equity. You going to hear a lot about bonds today.

So we did lock the doors. You can't actually leave until we're done. Um but turns out bonds have been interesting for a while, so spent a good .

place to be one of the most interesting areas are one of the most exciting areas of the etf market from the perspective where dollars are going, our option overly strong. So when do you go to start selling calls against your fixing? Come on like yield and yield.

let's go. You say that, but there are a few .

things in the works.

You know we've seen some bio ride strategies. You know if you hear if you stop by and you know prayed the alter of our lady of margin call to see me downstairs. And a lot of people who who would happily take that.

we were talking earlier about your benchmark series and the the for two is timing of IT. So you said five and years go to you guys launched the the firm free pandemic, basically for the pandemic, rates were went to zero effectively in the pandemic. And you launched a series of band etf 2222 three， okay, which was a great timing because at that point, rates finally went back up because if if you launch when rates are also one percent, what is the reception going to be?

Zero point zero? Yeah, not new. right. We stop the landing on on timing for sure. But IT was a need in the marketplace, right? We built IT, not because we thought IT is is a great time for rates.

Let's do a single bomb product that was we wanted to be the first consumer of the product. We had portfolios who needed exactly what the U S. Benchmark series, t bd, youtube, U N.

Work and IT didn't exist, and Frankly, took us a while to actually get up the gumption to do IT, because we thought, clearly someone had to try this, something this had to have been thought of before, and we just couldn't find that. After a few months of trying, we finally realized I just needed to be done, and maybe we were the right people to try. And so far, so good.

There is seven trillion giver take dollars in money market funds, and the money is not slowing down despite the fact of the fed has lowered rates twice. 嗯， are you surprised that money is still poring to money market funds are than a corner to that? Is you want your most popular strategy, tea bill, great teacher has almost four one hundred billion dollars, and that seems like that has not really slowed materially. Like are you surprised that invests aren't extending their duration or or what what we see .

some investors doing that we we keep talking about IT, and we see flows coming into the middle and longer into the curve in our products. But when you're still getting four percent on the nominal rate, if we did that on a tip spaces for you, you getting six and a half percent, the question is that enough to coke savers into risk assets? And so far, the answer is no.

You see that with the two handle, maybe things change. But right now you're used to a decade of zero and all of the sun. You get four and half percent for buying a government bond and just sitting there, not going to think about IT. There aren't that many more attractive opportunities for folks who wanted the security cash.

A few weeks ago on our show, I talked to Michael, the fact the have been just racking of late, right? If you look at the past twelve months in the U. S. Stock market, small cap s, large cap rope and forty percent or so and and I was saying, you know, this has been A A lovely boat market with a little positive for twenty twenty two, which was a lot of food. The lovely .

he describes a bulb market .

is lovely. I do someone who's invested in IT. And so i'm just try to figure out the the dogs opposition of of, okay, things change in the election IT seems like, okay. Now there maybe the rest euphoria because markets took off even the way I been up a lot, they took off even more.

But how do you square that with the fact that money still is pouring into tables and money is still pouring into money markets? Is there just money everywhere that you can just be spread out and spread? Or what's going on here?

I think there is money coming in from all sorts of sources, right? And what it's not doing is finding its way to just one part of the market, which is good, right? That's what we used to see.

A lot of that money that we're seeing today used to go to private funds or things that we couldn't readily track, right? Just didn't see as much in the statistics. They were locked up and outside enterprise.

So I think we're seeing a lot of that. We're seeing a lot of those funds that people invested in five, ten years ago that had locked ups that now have cash available. And they're not react in.

They're putting into the public markets. They're lying on to the cash waiting to see what happens. But to your point, we can half ago, we we really got animal spirits back in the market.

Things were pretty good, but then we just got a shot in the ARM. And that sort of sudden sense of euphoria of of loveliness of Michael ball house is, I think gonna keep happening. Mean, folks wants to see these things continue to rise, and there's a lot of powerful forces behind that.

It's only been a week since since the election and the inflection point to the markets, are you noticing a different tone from the adviser clients that you serve? Well.

I mean, I think we'd ask folks over here that get a Better answer, but is somewhat I mean, think there is a sense of, okay, this wasn't a fiasco. And regardless of who voted for whom or what you were hoping happen, the big fear for markets was this wouldn't be decided today that we would be sitting. You're talking about lawsuits or all sorts of other crazy things, and none of that happened. The market was really happy about that. I think industry should be really happy that the market reacted exactly as we'd wanted to, took IT in stride, went back to worrying about inflation, jobs and fundamentals, which is what we're trying to actually work with.

Don't seem to be a lot of fears right now. I know certain investors are always scared of of something, but it's kind of seems like everyone in the pool not scared of much. Do you think investors should be afraid that rates are moving up again because the there's always a narrative of attached to this.

And like when I always talk about this, when rates go up IT IT kind of is choose your own adventure, right? Well, rates are going up because the economy stronger or no? No, no.

Rates are going up because people worried about the economy and inflations going to come back or no. Actually, it's bond vigilantes. So when parsing through this stuff, do you think there is a line in the sand war? H actually, we should start wearing if rates get back to five percent or something in.

we remember one out in the wild.

Maybe it's us. Maybe we do know. I mean, we're certainly seeing a lot of folks who are happy to byblos no matter what happens in the market. So there, there is a lot of opportunity there.

Tend, to your question more broadly, I mean, if the short end we're moving because the fed had to start a hiking cycle, you know that would be a warning sign. But yeah, the market is pretty diverse. There's a lot of things happening out there for ten years.

Sitting at almost four and a half today after pretty nice field rally today, surprises are dropping. But I don't think that's anything inherently to worry about. The curve is trying to figure out policy that is yet to exist for things that have not yet happened or even been promised. So there's a lot of guessing.

although if the two years gone from, I don't know, three point five percent of four point three, I think, is that signaling maybe as many uses we thought I think .

the theory that we were going to zero was coming out of the market. right? I know that we never described to the theory that we were getting back to zero one percent.

I think there's also a lot of fear they'll be some inflationary policy coming down the pipe and the market is getting little bit ahead of itself. Mean, that was a pretty strong yellow rally for what happened. But that said, I don't know that it's any immediate cause to worry. The underlying fundamentals of the economy, both act real and financial, are super strong. Things are just kind of work in themselves out.

One of our favorite theory for why rates rose s is attributable to warn pies and he basically said, um the rise in yields is not people that are not trusting our ability to pay us back in the the man higher rates is that people were offsides positioning for a weaker economy, perhaps recession, lower rates. Obviously, that didn't come to fruition and they're just getting back on sides and it's more about positioning than than fears. So actually a good thing.

Yeah, I think that's right. In coming into november, a lot of economists are still saying there was a fifteen twenty percent chance of recession, which last year, they said there was one hundred percent chance of recession this year and they've been wrong. So I think there's been a lot of repositioning and lack of faith in the economy and know someone who we talk about time to time jar dilly and over daily dirt naps, says dad, is a great expression of optimism. And there's a lot of optimism. So a lot of things to be optimistic about, whether that you know the bond market, equity market or folks belief in their selves themselves, in the ability for the economy to whether all storms, and I think we should bet on that because everyone else is.

is the fed making a policy mistake by continue continuing to lower rates without incorporating the fact, yes, inflation is coming down. There is no need for for fed funds rates to be two hundred basis points of inflation, whatever IT is. But maybe they are missing the forest for the trees. Like if growth picks up, if as the Prices keep doing what they are doing, are they fanning the flames of the fire?

So in two years, we might be able to say, yes, they should have done IT everything in hindi. Ts, usually a little bit clear, but this was a sort of prompter y cut. You know, I was calling for twenty five last time we got fifty. I'll give myself half credit two times. Go when, not just because twenty five is half a fifty, but the fed is basically saying we should have done twenty five, you know, spread out in a nice even way.

We had some bad data. We couldn't get there.

The wrong, wrong. oops. Now how do we go from here? And it's weird to hear the feed or say that, but they did. They moved on.

I think we're going to see this cut cycles continue on for a while in this, right, because that's what they said they're going to do. They want to keep doing. They want to be seen as a political.

They OK seem to be okay with making a prompt ory cut. They're not gonna OK with a preemptory hike. Even if all of the news says I should go there. That's a pretty bold statement from.

do you think that we get another hike in the cycle?

Well, I think that would mean as a new cycle, sort of by definition, right? But I all big, we're going to see one for a while. You could see a prolong pause in twenty twenty five if C. P, I took back up, if GDP remains as strong as IT is, if IT turns out there are policies that are obviously and immediately inflationary, then the pause to start hiking again would send one of those true fear signals to the market.

I was I was going to your website today, benchmark k series. And you have based on your etf at the different maturity levels, you have a yo curve built, right? And the short term youths are still higher than the long term youths. Don't we want to see short term fields continue to come down to make the Young curve more Normal?

You I think there is a obvious desire for historical reasons to see the ulcer in a totally Normalized environment. But we've been dealing with the yo curve in some pretty funny shapes for the last two, three years now, and things seem to be fine.

Kind of testing the theory that maybe IT doesn't have to look exactly that way now is kind of odd that if you go back to theory, you're saying the government more likely to go out of business and ninety days than in ten years. I mean, that's just sort of bizarre. But somehow another that's what the market seems to want and the bill options are they refine.

I mean, the other health you know system matic quitted assess the health of the market is to say, are people showing up to the treasury auction? And is the government having a hard time? Is showing that they're not.

So there's plenty of investors, Michael said, the recession on winding that we're bedding on bonds as more of a trade than an investment. It's funny, our podcast producer, duncan, he said he bought T, L, T, and the fed announced going to make cuts.

But sorry.

down. But from the day the fed first cut rates is the eight trading days after that, T, L, T was down, eight days in oral, and he couldn't figured out. And why is this happening? A lot of people were, I think, implicity making that bet.

But as as advisor, you don't I didn't want to see rates go rate back down. I wanted to see rates stay in four to five percent range because that's Better to just clip that coupon as an investor, right? That we we should want this as fixing the investors.

correct? They know the higher rates in that sensor are good for bond collectors. And if you look at, say, the I G market, you're going to see now most of the return is actually coupon that certainly during the high yield market where if you're not at least equal way to benchmark, you're losing out on on the Carry there.

And a lot of folks who were buying bonds for total return, hoping that there was some convincing sitting there that would give them this really sweet return when rates when exactly the way they hoped they've been a little disapointment. If you were buying IT more for for income, like why we call a fixed income, you've been pretty happy with what you've got. And as long as you are in the more liquid side of the market, things are still healthy.

So spreads are tight because the economies good, defaults are low. They should be tight. I will be wear if they warrant. One of the other reasons why their time is because I think investors are to are happy with the absolute level of returns or or yields from their investment.

Green bonds, I remember, I think was during the pandemic, microsoft issued bonds that like literally two point three percent, does who the f is buying this like why, literally why? And so if if you're only getting a hundred basis points spread, whatever is the number is, but the the measures stick is four percent, it's still a pretty juicy return. Yeah.

no. I mean, there's a lot of opportunities in in all aspects of the market today. I think there is fewer those bonds floating out there now and a lot of them made their way to portfolios.

They are going to hold them to maturity. So as a new investor to the market and after us, what's actually available, what's out there? The new issue market though remains strong.

Yields are are good, coupon rates are reasonable. So you get a nice return. Like if you look at the E, D basis points read of two year new issue debt verses to your treasury, that's a nice space. And if you look at the default rate in the I G space, it's IT is very low and it's IT will probably stay pretty low for the foreseeable future and that probably grow the high year market and certainly mini market.

We are talking about tips out there over a model which is uh, great thing to do of drink beers. So I was looking today the break events. I think the five year break even is two point four percent yeah something I mean, the break events were negative in the pandemic.

I think I know that there were some investors who got burnt by tips. Michael, I heard from a ton of people that emailed in and said what what's going on here? I thought inflation was coming from the pandemic. I put my money, needed tips, and then they got killed when rates one up and they acted more like bonds and they did in inflation protection. But if you have a higher yield now, and I really yld, aren't tips, just a wonderful opportunity .

at the moment? We think so. We have ask also wider folks so much despise tips last year, two years ago, IT, wasn't that they didn't like tips, didn't they actually got the inflation protection? I thought they are at really bonds underneath IT.

It's said they bought bonds that were three, five, six years duration. So your inflation protection work, just your duration hurt you far more than you saw the immediate impact of that inflation protection. Hold on to that bond for another three, four years, you're going to get your money back off all the inflation that you thought it'll be a pretty healthy real return.

We think folks need to be assess what are you getting. I think most folks thought they were buying tips. They were getting tbill plus inflation protection and they weren't. And that's that's the the the next next as a where does this maybe a non secret .

of the conversation? You can point if if IT is but one of the biggest teams and wealth management has been the rise of private markets, specifically private credit. So loans being made to comply.

I can't tap public markets. Any thoughts on that? Those markets what they're doing to to issue was or anything that investors about.

I think you'll see a lot of dead issue. There are some by issuers who came up public markets but have found is easier to do this right? Or they have other gets stack that they can more readily refinance without a traditional under writing process.

You're gone to see a lot of etf, another products that take these wall street products and try to bring them to main street. And that's gonna a real experiment because the thing about being private is IT doesn't have all the conventional rules. And there's generally one or two people who get to decide what isn't is not allowed in the in that .

are they really going to try to do private .

credit in etf structure doing IT? Yes, but also on the rules that you can only fifteen percent of the fund and things that aren't liquid. So what is that?

He even well, that there. yes. And I think eighty five percent of fun is going to be mostly liquid stuff, some less liquid versions of IT.

But even at that fifteen percent, even if you found a way to create a swap or something else where you were, you know impersonating elements of that private credit who's setting the market, those things aren't redeemed and created everyday. So there needs to be a liquidity provider in middle that liquidity providers is gonna t the Price. And when things are good, that's probably a fair Price. When things are not, you know, we haven't yet tested .

what that looks like that once again.

the number that we read was pretty credit makes up maybe five, six percent of the ig market. And so it's still a pretty small amount. But does that get to a point where that money somehow impacts spreads in investment grade credit? Or is that just so big that IT doesn't really matter?

I'm going to guess it's so big IT doesn't matter for the foreseeable future, right? Certainly, private credit gets in an awful lot of attention despite being five percent .

of market in our in backs. IT does is yeah five percent of the market but and ninety five percent of adviser inbox es these days. And I would say that it's an easier sale you could ever make.

Yield is an easy sale. So if you tell an adviser i'm going to get your clients ten percent, twelve percent, ten percent, this is that sounds amazing. My question is that asset for your client is a liability for someone else. How do these companies taking on these loans keep running when they are paying twelve, fourteen percent on their .

debt loans .

to pay the loans more loans? And I think this is the cynical view, is this is a great opportunity for folks issue that dead to find a whole new set of investors to allow them to refinance IT off their books and .

try again so they can refinance.

It's the fear is that IT becomes bad, and that's what the regulators will need to determine if that is going to happen. How do they stop IT? And you know what, the unknown there if one IT will be approved in that state, and unknown if IT is approved in that state, if that's what actually gona happen.

But IT seems like get a good bed. But do you think that these these big players, the big private Apollos and kkr s and black stones and black rocks of the world, if they if they just say, listen, we're putting five or ten percent of our client model portfolios into private credit. There is enough of a wave to keep this stuff going for a lot longer than people would would assume.

Yeah, no, they they could move enough of their own asset base to create, you know, microcosm. Po, sure. But at some point, if the returns don't actually materialize, right, you you wait your five or seven years in your I R R S. Six, not fourteen, all of a sudden I think those asset start to go somewhere else.

And that's more likely than because a lot of people are saying this is gonna be a calamity in the next recession. This is going to be a huge come to jesus moment. I would think that just lower returns in your expect or are probably is probably more likely.

Yeah, once you're afraid you're not gonna get any your money back, you're happy to get most of the back. So if you went from thinking you're getting fourteen, afraid you're going to get zero and you get e, you're all of a sudden pretty happy. And that may be the outcome. There may be in a fresh money for a while that some of the funds don't have that risk or don't have that reality, but eventually, that something has to give and you can't keep running fourteen percent return, no wall forever, but just doesn't enough in those private companies.

Alice, one of the questions that we get get inbox probably every week. And another work we have to answer this, maybe you are, is the deficit keeps going up, th Epace a t w hich i s, which is going up is accelerating. What your thoughts should should investors be worried that the U. S. Government is going to turn run out of money or there is going to be a crisis in the bad market? And what are your thoughts on on the deficit and what that means to investors?

She's that is an easy one to answer. Probably good opening line at my thanksgiving to you will get mad at that. yeah.

No, not at all. It's tread carefully. We were not going to run out of money.

We have a printing press and they know how to use IT. So I think they'll avoid that. The incoming administration historically try to talk down the strength of dollar. So that gives us some room to make more dollars to pay some the debt, but we will eventually get to a spot where we now owe enough money on our current money that we have to issue more money and pay more money to do that, that we get to despite similar to their private credit cycle, where now there will be something will have to give until there's a major change in amount debt we need to function every day.

How much help will be. So I think I read the other day, it's thirteen or fourteen percent of the budget in twenty twenty four was into expense, which is effectively the same as the defense budget. But isn't the fed cutting rates going to make that a little Better? Training on the maturity spector I get .

there should make IT somewhat Better, but that's assuming that everything was issued on the short end on all be and that those options will continue to be believed in as much as they are today. And that faith could weigh at some point, and you probably will weigh in the bond market before the broadwater.

But the whole day of reckoning, this is a lot about the h. There's going be a day of reckoning that comes and people to stop buying government debt. First of all, I don't know where else they would go. I don't know what's the next best option .

but could not but couldn't defend just say.

okay, we're going to issue a bunch of short term tea beers. You're not in my tables. Isn't that like for the day of reckoning scenario? Isn't there a tony stuff the fed could do before there's an actual crisis that people are predicting?

Certainly there a lot of commentators who I think is you right, the number of rural investing is don't take advice from headphone managers where turns to be true. There's like this odd fetish of figuring out how the end of financial economy is going to happen and they're always wrong. So there's the good news.

Don't worry too much about IT. Theyve always been wrong. They will be that the government couldn't keep financing itself only on ninety day bills, right, because we have longer to goals on that. Employees wanted know that their going to get paid. So we will always need that and money will go there, if only because there are a lot of laws that say certain institutions have to buy that debt so they can kind of insulate themselves against some of that.

And that's other thing is people don't realize again, the other side of the liability is an asset and pension fund and insurance companies and baby bombers and the years ahead are going to need want to need that. I was telling you earlier, the the baby bombers have just got there are the lucky est generation, aren't they? Because they they roll the wave of a forty year bombo market.

Yeah, bonds struggle there. But now we're getting into the teeth of retirement. We're talking four, five percent yellow on it's a pretty .

good scenario counter there, three channels, four channels.

whatever was. But they saw the rise of cable television. It's not the rise of V, S P. And I mean, that's that's good to be, therefore, but I think the answer is yes on real return basis, you know you you'll see six percent and and that's why you see us dip out into the tips market in coming weeks and months. We start to offer some new products to help folks deal with a longer period of inflation, where that's gonna be a real thing and where your real return is going to continue to be material for the foreseeable future.

So as you mentioned at the start that the animal spirits have kicked into the markets this week, years seen cyp tor go not and spects colonies an IPO. The IPO window should open wide in two thousand and twenty five large cap stocks, small. I mean, everything is really having A A good time. Are you seeing flows slowed down at all in terms of what you're seeing in your fix income products?

You know, not really. We see you know fluctuations we'd expect for time of year for tax harvest for other reasons. But assetz are still coming in, pointed out still seven trillion dollars in money markets that can make their way over and are and there are a lot of folks.

So I think they're still looking at the that absolute level of return you're getting, and they're still really happy with IT. And although IT looks nice to say the S M P S up thirty percent, you didn't know that was going to be the case. And if you believe the economist exactly one year ago, you would have been short the S M P.

Five hundred. And this year because constant doom was coming and IT missed. So it's a great place to hang out and still make three four percent with no real risk to portfolio.

We've heard from a few asset managers, we're just celebrating at that seven trillion dollars and money markets.

Black, yeah.

talk a lot. Do you think that that money is more likely to make its way to fix income than stacks?

I don't know. I mean, for the benchmark serious sak, I hope, hope he does. But I thinking, going to see you go a lot of places that you hadn't expected that just because investors are gonna forced to rebaLance some ways they did know the baby ber generation is passing that wealth on.

And those new investors are not necessarily using the exact playbook their parents did. And we don't know exactly what that's going to look like. We do know it's not going to be the exact same. And some of that asset may leave the public markets, might go back to private things. Some of it's going to go to real state but expensive to buy out your parents house, right, or buy out your siblings so you can live in the house you drop in so you're going to see IT move in different ways and take a little while longer to trickle back out to the risk asset market.

Ah so you guys, your entrepreneur s your innovators at FM investments, what's the less and putting on spot, you know, dance this, is there an etf that you saw launch? You like I was H I thought of that.

We see him everyday. The ones that get me arent, the ones that we h we thought of, the ones that we thought of and we didn't do we see those happen? Yeah, every few weeks like, man, we should have done that one.

I mean, obviously the easiest one is why didn't we do a bit coin one, two that thing like. You could throw your hat, the ring there, a lot of good ideas that wasn't historically anything we looked at, but there isn't. I think we've pretty happy with the success that we have had that we don't spend a lot of time looking back on the things that we didn't get a chance to do .

anything that you could use or is that not a coach?

Well, if we think what we're going to do, some self inflation, you'll see some tips funds for us come out. You know, we really think with the benchmark series is a great opportunity to really own the rates face.

So you'll see some other are in the tips curve.

So right now, you have got about ten years. You don't they are not issued as regularly. They don't have as many spots on the curve, so you'll see fewer of them will probably focus on something more active on the short. And so think of something like a real cash version of t bill. So t bill, enormous right tips fund will go after the real rate of cash.

So if you if you a tea bill tips fund, essentially you're getting all of the inflation protection, right? Because this the duration piece is taken out of IT. exactly.

So we think that what folks really thought they were buying, we give that to them and we will do some other parts on the curve because we get a lot of request in ARM box gets filled up with, hey, I think the curve is going to this. How should I play IT? Well, here's two or three ways to do IT.

We're going to start to wrap those trades up for folks who want to play that. You will see us to start to depart two out into the equity space. We launched automatic equity tf in the life science space for small caps. This is a great time to be there, and we will start doing some more of that as we start to figure out what investors really want. In twenty twenty five.

the advisor space is the the bell of the ball. These days, Michael talk about the the private the private asset manager are coming for the R A channel because the the institutional bucket there, they are tapped out right there. So they they see growth there, uh, fund C I E growth, fin taxi growth there. When you think about the advisor channel, are you when you make your products, are you thinking more about advisors than retail e investors? Are you do I know it's .

it's a whole wide swap of people or thing want to be accessible, everybody. But most of things that were good at doing, most of the clients we work with folks were here with us today, manage money for somebody other acid donor. So we want generally to build products that fit into that portfolio that as the allocation you have that solve an actual problem you have today for investors, nothing we built should be unusable by the retail market, but we appreciate not everything will have the same in our sexual as t bill or you. To some of them, we're going to be used more bike professionals to solve professional problems for large groups of clients or to solve Operational or other concerns that you have as an advisor.

We've been taught for thirty minutes, thirty two minutes, and i'm about out the questions. Anybody in the audience of any questions are any men who are boating that needs some advice if it's time to shave that i'm happened to answer those questions to no full hat hair.

Every time we get on a zoom call, there's another ball on a call that black's icebreaker er .

is out a nice haircut and just insert that into the language and everything else .

in your mind. I know I appreciate everyone shown up.

Thanks to guess this is but our third or fourth fifth and lose in track. Now go round but good stuff um you don't let us know what's in your inbox so we can start solve in .

those problems too right? Anybody questions for real? No cool drinks, food, right?

Thank you. Thank you.