Smart Planning Sessions: Digging Out of $36K in Debt—Without Derailing Retirement
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Elizabeth, would you say your money is smart, dumb, or fun? I'd say it's smudder fun. Smudder fun. Smudder fun, if that's a word. A little bit of everything? It's a little bit of everything. But honestly, if I had to choose one, I'm proud of myself. I'd say in this season, it's smart. You know, I was going to go with fun personally, but I think that fun can also be smart. ♪

Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Files. And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. On this episode of the show, we have the next installment of our Smart Planning series, where we talk with a financial planner and a listener about whether they should take money out of their retirement account to pay off their credit card debt. But

But first, Elizabeth and I are going to play a little game that I'm calling Smart Money, Dumb Money, Fun Money. We are the Smart Money Podcast. So, Elizabeth, let's chat about some of the smartest, dumbest, and funnest things that we've seen in the world of money recently. And yes, I am aware that funnest is not a real word, but let's go ahead with it. So let's start with smartest. Elizabeth, what was the smartest thing that you did with your money or that you saw in the world of money recently? Hmm.

Well, I would say if I had to pick something, since it's exciting me a little bit, I'm going to go with maximizing my credit card points. Now, I have about...

three or four reward credit cards at the moment. I've had them for a few years. And honestly, I just use them all at different times with no real strategy in place, right? And I think I mentioned on the podcast some episode ago that I got hit with an annual $500 fee and it was like, surprise!

And then I was like, wait, I have about three or four credit cards with all of these high annual fees. And am I actually maximizing the rewards and getting a return on my investment? I did a side-by-side comparison of all the different rewards I get across all the cards. And then I realized that there's one specific card, my American Express Blue Cash card, I believe, that is great for groceries. So I'm like, oh, girl, you should be using this for all of your groceries, you know? Yeah.

I am excited about seeing how I'm going to save money and make sure that I am justifying my annual spend on each card. Did you decide to actually cancel any of your credit cards? Because if you have four with annual fees, that gets to be pretty expensive. It's a tricky one. I have thought about because I also have a city advantage card and that honestly gives me the least rewards.

But the biggest perk I have there is the lounge. And I travel quite often. And I am the girl who likes to get to the airport early because I want to have a mimosa and a meal. Yeah.

So in that way, it's pulling its weight because of that lounge access alone. Yes, and also priority boarding. So that is not like the hugest perk, but it is nice to be able to get my bag on the plane before everyone else gets on there and takes up all the cabins. But honestly, that card is the weakest link. So it might still get cut.

Okay, okay. So what about you, Sean? What is the smartest thing you've seen in the world of money or in your personal life that you've spent money on? I have two things, and they are both related to my recent trip abroad. I did two things that helped me save money. One was that I used an eSIM instead of using my...

American cell phone plan when I was abroad. And that saved me about $100 because my carrier here tries to charge me $10 a day if I'm using international cell service. So I just got an eSIM. The second one related to my trip was that I didn't buy rental car insurance from the place where I got my rental car. I used the insurance that came with my travel credit card.

It was a Mercedes SUV that had 39 miles on it. What? Basically a new car. Yes, it was a brand new car, basically. And the person who was checking me out was saying, you know, this car costs 39,000 pounds. Are you sure you don't want this insurance? Pounds, not dollars. Yes, not dollars. I'm assuming it's like, what, $55,000, something like that, maybe more. And yeah, that's a hefty price tag for a brand new car. They kept repeating that price and...

At the end of the day, I held firm. I didn't get that extra insurance. And guess what? I didn't crash the car either. So I saved a few hundred bucks there too. It's always so nerve-wracking when it comes to that insurance saga. But the last time I rented a car when I was in Florida, I did the same thing. So I used my credit card insurance, and it really does save you money. So good job. Thank you. I think that's it for smart moves. And pretty proud of you with your credit card strategy there, Elizabeth.

Now, let's talk about the dumbest thing that we saw in the world of money. What have you got? Well, I'm just about to put all my business out there. Back in February, I had a friend send me a message and she was like, you know, I'm starting a lash business, eyelash extensions. And she was like, I need some test models. So I was like, well, let me help my friend out, you know, and go and be her test model. And I typically don't do lash extensions.

So she did the last extensions and I was like, wow, who is this beautiful girl with these long lashes? It was me, of course.

I was like, maybe I'm having a change of heart. By the way, I also don't do my nails for similar reasons. I just think the maintenance can be relatively expensive. You usually have to do refills, whether it's your nails, your lashes, monthly, biweekly. But let me tell you, Sean, I got sucked in. I found a lash extension shop near my house and

And initially to just put the first set of lashes on, it cost me about $100. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So now I was going back every other week and paying $50 to top up my lashes. And that was since February. About $100 a month just for your lashes. Just for my lashes. This thing that six months ago you didn't even care about. Didn't even care about. And apparently they're supposed to last for at least three weeks. So I did not do comparison shopping. I did not read reviews to check, you know, if this even was a good lash lady. So now I am lash free and I am saving $100. But.

But I'm having PTSD. And a part of me wants to get the lashes back, but I'm not going to do it. We're going to do smart money here. Hold strong. Yeah. Make this dumb money move a smart money move. And just embrace your natural lashes because they're gorgeous. Thank you, Sean. And think about what you're going to do with that $100 a month.

Sean, now it's your turn. The floor is over to you. What are some dumb money things that you have seen in your personal life or in the world? This might be a little nitpicky, and I know I'm often ragging on influencers for saying things that I don't agree with, but here's another one of them. I recently saw an influencer say that folks should have between nine and 12 months worth of expenses in their emergency fund.

And I have two issues with that. One is that I think it is unrealistic for many people and then can be discouraging. We know how hard it is for a lot of folks to save. Even getting to three months or six months can take years to get to. Suddenly having this goal of nine to 12 months can make people think it's just not worth trying. So why bother? So that's my first gripe with this.

And the second is that it's also not a great use of your money because there is such a thing as having too much cash on hand. If you have all of that money sitting in your savings account, I mean, hopefully it's a high yield savings account. But even so, it is maybe barely breaking even with inflation. And if you put that money into an investment account, it's likely to grow at a better pace.

So a lot of financial planners will recommend the three to six months of emergency savings. No one needs to have nine to 12 months of emergency savings set aside unless you are extremely risk averse and are maybe slightly hoarding your money. Okay, Elizabeth, let's get to the last category, which is the most fun thing that you've done with your money.

What have you got? I recently bought some tickets for my son and I to go to Miami. And I must share that at the end of June, it marks one year since I have been living in Houston, Texas. So I'm now officially... One by fast. I know. I'm now officially a Houston hottie. But...

But I do miss my friends and family in Miami, and I do miss the beach. So I'm really looking forward to going back. So that is some fun money that I spent. That's great. Sean, I now want to hear about your fun money thing. Okay, my fun money thing is a very adult and very childish thing that I did. I saved up $500, and I bought myself a Nintendo Switch 2 and bought it...

the day it came out. I felt so silly and dorky at the same time, but it has been very fun. I love a good video game to relax at the end of the day when I've done my reading, I've done my chores, and I just want my brain off, but I don't want to be scrolling social media.

I'm going to go and play some Mario Kart or play some Pokemon and just relax. So that has been my fun money thing that will last me hopefully for many years to come. Oh, that is so fun. And I was going to ask what games you play. So do they still have Street Fighter? Is that even on Nintendo Switch? I think so.

There are all sorts of fighting games out there. I don't play them because they're too violent for me. But yeah, look online. Also, you have your son's Switch. You can just dust it off and boot it off. Oh my gosh, he has me playing Bluey on his Switch for all the people who know what the Bluey game is. But I have no idea how to play, but I just do it to make him happy. That's sweet.

Okay, well, listeners, Elizabeth and I have shared some great things that we think are smart, dumb, and fun. We'd love to hear what's happening in your life and your money that is either fun, dumb, or very smart. So let us know. Hit us up on the Nerd Hotline. You can leave us a voicemail or text us at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com.

Up next, we're about to get to this episode's money question, where we have the latest installment of our smart planning series. This series, we're going to talk with a listener and a financial advisor about whether it's a good idea to tap retirement accounts to pay off debt. All right, that's coming up in a moment. Stay with us.

Many of our listeners are looking for professional advice on elevating their wealth. So we invited another financial expert onto the show to take a deeper dive into listeners' financial questions and provide smart strategies for building and leveraging their money. Welcome to Smart Planning. Let's begin. ♪

This episode, we're joined by one of our listeners, Safiya, who has some questions about using their retirement savings to pay off their debt. Safiya, welcome to Smart Money. Thank you, Sean. Thank you for having me. And to help Safiya with their questions, we are joined by Daniel Maseka, a certified financial planner professional and co-host of the Check Your Balances podcast. Daniel, welcome on to Smart Money. Thank you, Sean.

Well, I'm glad to have you both here. To start, Safiya, let's get a feel for your financial life right now. Can you tell us where you think you're doing well and what challenges you've been facing? The challenges that I've been facing, it's my credit card debt that I have and then a student loan debt. With the credit card, it has been overwhelming because I'm trying to claim my debt. And I've done a few maybe consolidation, but I don't see that going anywhere.

And where do you think your finances are in a good place? Where do you feel okay about things? I live in paycheck to paycheck, basically. So money is pretty tight. Yes, money is an issue right now. So 3% of my income goes into a 4-3B plan through my employer. That's basically the only savings I have.

And is that 3% to get the employer match? No, unfortunately, my employer don't do match. Well, I'm glad to hear that you're saving at least something, even if you aren't getting that match. That's really helpful. And beyond what you're putting in that 403B, which is a retirement account that people at nonprofits often have access to, do you have emergency savings like an emergency fund or any kind of cash stashed away? Yes, I have emergency savings, but maybe...

$10,000 I have on just a regular savings account. Well, that's great to have. A lot of people don't have nearly that much in savings. So I'm glad to hear you do have something to fall back on that can prevent you from going deeper into credit card debt. Daniel, I want to bring you in here. Based on what we've just heard so far from Safiya, what are your initial impressions of their finances? So I'm also glad to hear that there is retirement contributions being made because that's opportunity potentially to move funds forward.

towards paying off debt. The numbers matter here, so we'd want to get a little bit deeper into how much debt, what kind of debt is also critical. And having an emergency fund as a safety net is, again, leagues above where a lot of other people are who might be worried about paying off credit card debt in particular. Safia, have you done any sort of budgeting, even if it's backwards looking to see what you need to pay each month to cover your basic living expenses? I know you mentioned you felt like you were paycheck to paycheck.

Just wondering if you had a feeling for how much it costs to run your life when we're talking about bare bones necessities. Yes, I had created a little Excel sheet just to jot down my monthly income and expenses. One item on the budget that I think is pretty interesting to look at is interest expense. So if we're carrying credit card balances...

Part of what you're throwing at the credit cards is paying off what you've either spent before or have spent over the last month. But the other part of the credit card bill that's important is how much you're paying to service the debt.

which is both painful to look at, but is also an area of opportunity because if we're able to aggressively pay off the credit card, that's new money in your budget that isn't going to be spent going forward and can give you more opportunity either to spend more on discretionary items or to save aggressively. Have you looked at that interest expense figure to see kind of

what carrying those balances is costing you? I'm spending like maybe almost $1,000 on credit card debt. We're spreading out between the credit card because the total that I owe so far with all the cards combined is about $36,000. And

And I think you had mentioned you tried consolidating some of the loans in the past. Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience has been like? What kind of tools have you used to try to consolidate those loans and what's happened after that? One of the credit card companies offers a zero APR for balance transfer for 15 months. So

So I took a credit card that I have a high balance on and the interest rate was high and do a balance transfer over. But then there was a fee. I think the credit card company charged a 5% fee to do the balance transfer with 0% APR. So I've used that to reduce one of the higher balance I have on one of the credit card with higher interest rate. Because most of my credit card, the interest rate are quite high. So-

0% balance transfer cards can be really helpful as long as that's not a way to shift a problem to the side and then continue to rack up credit card bills in the meantime. I've seen again and again people who use those as a crutch and then their balances get paid off.

And then at the end of the 15 month interest free period, they now have that balance they need to pay off anyway, which they haven't been making progress towards and a new credit card balance on the side. So I think starting with budgeting and understanding what is available in your budget for spending and trying to stick with that for a couple months and just make sure that's feasible is option number one.

And then if we can do that, then we can look at the other methods about perhaps consolidating debt. I think that given how high credit card interest is, redirecting some of your retirement savings to attack that can be productive too, as long as we have a plan that gets us free and clear rather than just stopping our retirement savings and then also not dealing with the credit card debt.

That's a really good point around cash flow, Daniel, is because at the end of the day, it seems like, Safia, you've had to go into credit card debt to cover just day-to-day expenses. Safia, I'd like to hear a little more about how you accrued this credit card debt to begin with. What sort of purchases were you putting on the card that expanding into this $30,000 amount? Mostly it's like household goods.

Yeah, having kids is expensive? Okay. Yeah. How much are you earning annually? Yeah.

Annual is about $62,000. I know you mentioned you have the Excel spreadsheet. I do want to throw in a plug for NerdWallet's budgeting app. We have an app that has all sorts of tools and a budgeting tool is part of that. It's free to download. Since this is a cash flow issue, you're going to try to find as much money as you can to put toward your debt to resolve it. Thank you. I'll look into it. And the truth is, unfortunately, that at some levels of income, there's just not a lot of flexibility. There are some core expenses that we can't avoid, right? Sure.

shelter, transportation, food. We can only cut back so much, but it's good to be able to identify those figures because being involved with your finances is step number one, and then we can determine what options we have from there. So if we've cut back everything that's possible, we can potentially look to other sources of income if there's a way to generate income through a second job or a side hustle or something like that, which is sometimes the most powerful way to take a step forward, even though it can be challenging.

Safiya, I'm sure that sometimes this debt can feel overwhelming or stressful or that it's something that you did wrong or you're alone in this. But this kind of debt is really common for better or worse in our society. And so there are all sorts of ways that people have been able to get out of it. And a lot of financial planners can help people resolve debt like this. So, Daniel, when you are meeting with someone who's maybe in Safiya's situation, what do you talk through with them once you've established where the budget is? Daniel Kahl I think

I think the easiest thing that most people do without help is just ignore it. So it's important not to do that because if you keep ignoring it, you can't address the problem. Let's see if for one month, everything that goes on the card comes off the card plus a little bit more to cover the interest expense. And once we were able to put a couple months together like that, we knew that we had reached a good cruising altitude and could make a plan for tackling the debt. And then once you see that you're capable of

We can redirect some of your funds. Again, I think that four or three B savings, like, especially if it's not matched and we can expect maybe seven, eight, 9% return in the market or pay off credit card debt, probably in the mid 20%. I like that trade off all day, every day, but I want to make sure we're not just giving ourselves a false sense of security. And if we can't address things in the budget, then we can get creative as how can we bring in more income?

Safiya, have you thought about other ways to bring in more money? Yes. Actually, I was thinking of maybe a side hustle. That's why I've been listening to your show for quite some time, just getting ideas. But this is definitely helpful.

What sort of unique skills do you think you might be able to offer? I've been in higher education for over almost 20 years now, so I'm familiar with the financial aid process and application process and student loan information. So maybe that's something I can use.

Yeah, that would be a really valuable service, helping people navigate the student aid process, which can be so confusing, especially if you've been doing it for a long time. I assume you're on top of all the changes that have been going on over the past several years. So helping people navigate that is something that you bring to the table that's unique. Something else you wrote to us about, Safia, is whether you should be doing it on the side

potentially use some of the funds that are already in your 403b to pay off your credit card debt. Can you talk with us more about what you're thinking is behind that? Yeah, I have two 403b, one for my former employer. I didn't roll it over to my current employer. So I have one that have about maybe $71,000 on the one for my former employer. And then I have another one for my employer that have about $7,600 on

But then my credit card debt is almost $35,000. And then I have $22,000 in student loans that will be going into repayment pretty soon. And so my thinking, I was going to try and withdraw. I'm not sure if that's possible to withdraw from the 403B and then pay...

towards some of the credit card that have higher interest on it. I'm not sure if there's a penalty for me to withdraw from the 403B. I'm not sure how the process works, but that was something I was thinking of doing. You can access money in your 403B in a number of ways. If you're withdrawing it and it's pre-tax contributions to a 403B, in all circumstances, it's going to be taxable to you as ordinary income.

And if you're below a certain age, there would also be a penalty that applied of 10% in the event of a withdrawal. So when we're talking taxes, and if we're adding a penalty on top of that, that could be a very costly way to access money to pay down credit card debt. And it is also setting you back for retirement. And if we haven't treated the underlying cause of bill

building those credit card balances in the first place. My main worry is that we're going to find ourselves in a similar spot in the near future just without those retirement savings as a fallback. A second way you can access money in a 403b is through a 403b loan.

Those are typically available through your current employer up to half of your available balance or oftentimes $50,000, whichever is smaller. There, you do not have to pay income tax. You are not penalized. Instead, you pay back the money over time, much like you would with a personal loan. And the rates are typically pretty favorable. I think no matter what we did, the first step goes back to budgeting and understanding the numbers.

And then perhaps we lean on the 403B contributions you're making first, which I think is a lower commitment than taking money out of your 403B or borrowing against it. One thing I'll add on to that, Daniel, around a 403B loan, if you leave that employer or if you lose your job from that employer, you have to pay back that loan in pretty short order. And it can be difficult to...

come together with all that cash that you would have to to pay off that loan. So I am typically pretty wary of either taking a loan out of a retirement account or taking a distribution before retirement age because of everything Daniel said around how it can set you back for retirement plus all of the penalties and taxes you would face anyway. I also want to talk about timeline here. How far are you from your retirement, Safiya?

So I have maybe another 20 years to go. Well, I'm glad to hear that you have that time for your interest to compound and then future contributions to come back in maybe after you temporarily pause them to pay off this debt. But before that, even, I'd like to discuss a couple other ways to pay off credit card debt.

Are you familiar with a nonprofit credit counseling agency, Safiya? No. So I would recommend looking into these organizations. Again, it's a nonprofit credit counseling agency. They offer what's called a debt management plan. These organizations are able to do this because they actually were created by credit card companies themselves.

decades ago to help people who have credit card debt that's too high resolve what they owe. So on a debt management plan, it's kind of like a form of debt consolidation where your credit card payments across multiple lenders can be rolled into one monthly payment, and they are often able to slash your interest rate. Some people have interest rates go down to around 0%. I've talked to colleagues who've had that happen to them before.

So it helps you accelerate your debt payoff. You are in good standing with your creditors and you're able to pay much less in interest over the course of your debt. One thing to consider, too, is that you're often unable to use credit cards while on these plans so that you don't rack up more debt. But if you talk with one of these organizations, again, a nonprofit credit counseling agency, they're able to help you.

They can help you understand your options. This is different from something like debt settlement, which is like the dangerous cousin of a debt management plan. With debt settlement, you're basically playing a game of chicken with your creditors and you can leave yourself open to lawsuits and your credit is getting trashed.

So when you are researching this, just be really careful to search in nonprofit credit counseling agency because the language is kind of similar between both of them. Okay, thank you. And that was the Money Management International. Yes, that's one of the nonprofit agencies. Okay, thank you.

That's great feedback because this is an area where I've been pretty hesitant to send anyone because there are so many predatory businesses in this space because people who are dealing with this, if it persists for months or years, can feel very desperate and look for any solution, which is oftentimes the easiest time to pround people. So it's nice to know that there are genuine nonprofits that can help in this matter. And something to think about too is that, like you said, Daniel, people want a quick solution, right?

This debt didn't happen overnight. Paying it off isn't going to happen overnight. A lot of debt settlement companies, which again, I am not a huge fan of, offer quick solutions. Any place that's saying, oh, we can help you get out of your debt tomorrow is something to be skeptical of. So do a little bit of research and look into this option.

Something my former colleague used to recommend as well is that before you sign up for a debt management program, it can also be helpful to get a free consultation from a bankruptcy attorney. I know bankruptcy is a really taboo topic and people don't like to pursue this route, but in many cases, if people have

credit card debt or consumer debt that is about 50 or more of their household income then it can be just so overwhelming that it's almost impossible to get out of in a good time frame that doesn't impede other financial goals so with chapter 7 bankruptcy you can typically have your debt resolved within three to six months and your credit begins to improve once you've filed okay

And if that's the solution, the money within the retirement plan oftentimes is protected in many regards too. So that's a powerful tool if that is ultimately the course that makes sense for you rather than taking it out and losing the ability to have any protection on that money. And something else I want to go even a little more into is areas of your budget where you might be able to make some adjustments. Are there any areas that immediately come to mind that you think you might be able to make some cuts?

That's something I've discussed with my daughters, just lay off on the entertainment side, like going out to movies and restaurants, cut down on those. We've been doing that for the past few months now, just cut down on entertainment, basically eating out, try to cook my lunch, bring my lunch in to work instead of buying lunch every day. I've cut down on that. When I was reflecting on my budget not too long ago, I also...

realized how comfortable I got ordering like DoorDash to my house during the pandemic. There was a restaurant not too far away where we get food from every now and then I'm like, you know what, I'm going to go pick up the food and save us the money on the processing fees. And I got there and learned that every week on the day that we would order, there's like a massive discount on food for carryout. So not only was I saving on

the delivery and the tip and all that stuff. But there was a discount on top of that. And I didn't even have to change my eating habits to make that happen. So there can sometimes be small things like that. Additionally, I think the biggest place to make an impact on the largest areas of your budget, like housing vehicles and things of that nature. So whenever there's a transition point where you could change your housing cost, if you're in a rental or if you own, or if you are leasing a car or you own whatever it is,

The difference you can make on a car payment between one option and another can sometimes drown the difference you can make between, you know, buying a coffee or not buying a coffee. We want to make sure that we're making changes in areas of high impact, too. Safiya, do you have a car? Yes, I do. Yes. I'm curious about your car insurance. How long have you been with your current insurer? The current insurer for over eight years now.

While you are in a great position to shop around a little bit, because one thing that we've learned over our time at NerdWallet and looking at insurance rates is that it does not pay to stay loyal to a car insurance company. In fact, sometimes car insurers will charge people more if they've been with them for longer because they assume you're just going to stick around.

It's a good idea to shop around and get two to three quotes from car insurers at least annually. That way you can compare what kinds of rates you might be eligible for because even though you're bringing the same information to the table to each of these different insurers, they all weigh them slightly differently. So one company might be charging you a lot more than another for the same exact coverage.

We have a tool at NerdWallet that helps people compare different insurance rates. So poke around with that too a little bit because, like Daniel mentioned, you want to think about what are the biggest changes you can make to your budget because shaving off a latte here or there isn't going to do a whole bunch. But if you could save maybe $30, $50 on your car insurance, that's going to add up and help you just pay off your debt that much faster. Okay, I would definitely look into that. Okay.

Safiya, you mentioned that you have student loans too and that they're about to come back into repayment. What's happening with them?

Yes, it was on forbearance during the COVID. And I had actually, because I'm a public servant worker, so I had applied for the loan forgiveness program. But apparently with the new administration, I think loans are going to be going back into repayment. And I had actually qualified for up to 90 because you need like 120 payment to get the loans forgiven. I was all the way up to 90 payment. So I'm like almost close to it. Getting there. Yeah. Yes.

And it's about $22,000 in student loan, and that was just for my graduate degree, not the undergrad. And have you been paying on an income-driven payment plan towards those student loans? I had that pre-COVID, yes. But then when they canceled all payment, I didn't make any payment towards the loan or the interest. Some of the new income-driven payment plans, like the SAVE plan, I believe are subject to being taken away.

But my understanding is that at least one or more of the options might persist even when payments resume, which I think is scheduled to happen not before the end of the year, but probably at the end of the year. And it would be interesting to see what your payment would be under one of the even more expensive income-driven repayment plans because it's possible that your payment might be fairly low because it's based on a percentage of your discretionary earnings.

In which case, you might be able to stay on that plan for the remainder of the 120 payment period and still have some of your loans forgiven as long as you're remaining with an eligible employer for public student loan forgiveness. Okay. In which case, by the way, I would focus on the credit card debt over the student loans, I think is what that translates to for me.

Well, Safia, I know we've covered a lot of ground. We've gone really deep into budgeting and your debt and different options that you have. How are you feeling about your debt right now? And what do you think you might do next? Thank you so much. This is definitely helpful and I feel much better. Well, Safia and Daniel, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation today. Thank you, Sean. Thank you, Sean.

And that's all we have for this episode. If this episode inspired you to reach out to a financial planner, our SEC-registered affiliate, NerdWallet Advisors, can help you through their Advisor Match service. Just visit nerdwalletadvisors.com slash match or click the link in the episode description.

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