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From NPR, this is Invisibilia. I'm Kia Myakonitis. And I'm Yoé Shaw. And we're back! We are back! We are pumped to be back in your ears. Thrilled. And to kick off our season today, Kia...
I want to start by playing you a recording. Of course. What else will we do here? The big thing going on in my life right now is that I'm being interviewed for this podcast for NPR. Heard of it?
What? What is this? What am I listening to? Someone's making jokes about our show? Keep listening. The premise is they were looking for someone who's very uncomfortable with any kind of power. And so I talked to this reporter and she was like, great, you're perfect. Are you the reporter? Yes, I have made it into a stand-up routine. Wow, cool.
Congratulations. I know. That's kind of big time. Yeah. I mean, thank God I was just at the tippy top and didn't make it into a roast. Oh, thank God. But anyway, the person doing this stand up is Alex Song Shaw. I don't know how to say no to people.
They're 29, an actor and writer with a fancy job in L.A. writing for TV. They've written for shows like Rick and Morty and The Tonight Show. And of course, they do stand up, which makes their hang up about power feel kind of ironic to me.
You know, because they're talking about being uncomfortable with power while literally being on stage commanding an entire room of people. Different strengths, different contexts. I get it. Like power almost scares me as a word. I feel like I have this like negative association with it. Like, oh, having power is bad and yet it also...
Well, I recently came across a term for this hang-up Alex is describing, coined by this researcher Catherine Hall. It's called power aversion. This ugh feeling about power.
It's a new area of research, but the idea is that some of us develop negative associations about power based on what movies we watch, maybe what kinds of parents we have. And those ideas make some of us, not everybody, want to avoid power.
Like maybe we see power as a responsibility and don't want to hurt people. Or maybe we see power as fundamentally dirty and coercive. I'm two for two on both those topics.
I'm like, I don't want the responsibility and I think it's dirty. Yeah. Yeah. So there is research that suggests power can be dangerous, frees you up to act more in line with whatever your goals and instincts are, good or bad. Power is a mirror. But I talked to these researchers who argue that this feeling about power, this aversion to it,
is based on a misunderstanding about power. Especially if you have experience, you have witnessed the dark side of power, it's understandable you want to stay away from it. Turn away from power. This is Tiziana Cacharo and Julie Batalana. They're organizational behavior researchers who've been studying power for two decades and wrote this book called Power for All. And they argue that there is nothing inherently dirty about power.
Here's how they define it. Power is the ability to influence other people's behavior. To Julie and Tiziana, power at its most basic level is neutral. It's not good or bad. What makes power dirty is how you acquire it and what you use it for. Because we see so many examples of power being abused and because our brains tend to pay more attention to the bad than the good,
Julie and Tiziana argue that people can develop this allergic reaction to power. They get this ugh feeling. They can make them want to try to opt out of the power game, which is dangerous because you are surrendering your responsibilities. You leave it to others to decide for you.
I mean, I feel them. And also, sometimes that ugh feeling comes from like real life experience where you see people abuse power. There might be, you know, societal structures that hold people back. Yeah. Yeah. I think Julie and Tiziana would agree with that. What they're arguing is...
If you even want a shot at changing the way things are, you have to engage with power dynamics and understand how they work. This applies in all kinds of contexts. You know, the workplace, your community, politics, even your personal life. Like with Alex. What's your favorite seat on an airplane? Window? Aisle? Okay. I love the middle seat so no one is mad at me. Laughter
I'll sit there. I won't use the bathroom, so I won't make you get up. I feel like there are two categories of people. Those of us who would rather hold our pee than ask people to get up on a plane, like me. And then the people who just ask for what their bodies need. You know, that's me. I listen to this body. I know. I love this about you. But for a lot of us pee holders, using our power in service of what we want and need, that's hard. Mmm.
So on today's episode, we're going to focus on what power aversion looks like on an interpersonal level in the everyday interactions we all experience, how opting out can backfire on ourselves and the people we love, and how our boldest power moves might be the ones we don't realize we're making. You always got the story after the break. Public media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive.
Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts. Perks like sponsor-free listening, bonus episodes, early access, and more. So start supporting what you love today at plus.npr.org. There's been a lot of attention on loneliness lately.
16% of Americans report feeling lonely all or most of the time. The former Surgeon General even declared a loneliness epidemic. On It's Been a Minute, we're launching a new series called All the Lonely People, diving deep into how loneliness shows up in our lives and how our culture shapes it. That's on the It's Been a Minute podcast on NPR. If you think about power as the ability to influence people's behavior, Alex doesn't even try. They don't make decisions for the group.
They don't intervene or confront. Instead, Alex compulsively submits to what other people want. Somebody else makes the decisions and sets the expectations, and my job is just to try to fulfill them and then feel like dying if I can't. It makes me think of that yes-anding technique from improv, you know, where whatever anybody does in a scene, you're supposed to roll with it. But in Alex's case...
It's like they're stuck in a never-ending improv scene where they only yes and.
Which makes Alex fun and spontaneous. Down for whatever. They might end up at Disneyland tomorrow. Who knows? Just text them. A note for an improviser like that would be like, oh, actually, the scene will get funnier if you state your preferences and say how you're actually feeling. Interesting. Wow. It's like the improv note is perfect for Alex in real life, too. Yeah.
They yes and to a weekly scary movie night, even though they don't like scary movies. I just like really wanted to nail the assignment. They yes and to strangers stealing avocados from their tree. They'll even hide so people can steal in peace. Take as many as you want.
The other week, the S-handed to giving an audience member a ride home. A man they'd never met, after doing a bit on stage where they practiced saying no to favors. I fully acknowledged that I was the one to say, oh, do you want a ride? He just mentioned that his car was in the shop and the words came out of me.
And then there's all the times Alex yes ands to friends. I can always count on her to say yes to things, whether it actually happens or not. But like, she's always like down. Alex, by the way, uses both they and she pronouns. They're fine with either. But then like, she'll tell me like anecdotes of like other people. She's like, I hated it. I don't want to do that at all. And now I'm like, if I made you do things that you like really like hated me for. This is Lauren Kahn, also a comedian and one of Alex's best friends.
By now, Lauren is fine with the endless tango to make plans. Literally any plans. Let's go on a hike. Yeah, let's go on a hike. Do you want to come over here or should I go over there? Oh, I don't care. What do you want to do? I don't really care. I'm really flexed. I'll go wherever. Cool, cool, cool. But sometimes, and it's hard to know when this will happen...
Alex yes hands, and then boom. You don't get anything from her. She just completely ices you out. Like, one time years ago, Alex said yes to helping Lauren make a video, and they were at Lauren's apartment getting ready to shoot.
When Lauren got the feeling Alex didn't want to be there... Mentally, she just kind of was low. And then all of a sudden, Lauren's roommate burst into the room crying about a breakup. And so now Alex and I, who are already kind of in an awkward position because she's doing me a favor and she's just like not really feeling it. Eventually, the roommate left. Lauren apologized to Alex. But then, without any explanation...
Alex also got up and left. And she left all of her stuff there, like her tripod that she had brought and did not say what the problem was. I like started sobbing because I was like, what the fuck just happened? Like, what did I do? I think what I'm reckoning with right now is like, oh, I think I used to do stuff like that all the time. And I didn't expect people to remember and like have been affected by it.
What do you mean? Like what I can remember from that and also just other experiences where I've reacted in that way is that usually like in that moment, I just like feel like I can't exist in that space. And so I have to leave, like not quite realizing what I'm leaving in my wake. Alex told me about other times they've shut down, not responded to texts and calls, and
Where after a while of yes-anding to things they don't want to do, the cycle begins. These little complaints about a friend or acquaintance, and I feel a little guilty feeling them. But then when it reaches that breaking point, it is like this burst of anger that I'm just trying to put back in the box. Because it feels kind of scary sometimes.
And it's not like I wanted it to be that way. I think it's like from years of not taking power in a healthy way and then it like coming out in this unhealthy way instead. Alex can remember a time when they knew exactly what they wanted and asked for it. When Alex was growing up, their parents fought a lot and Alex constantly tried to intervene.
Like once, when they were just five, Alex tried stopping a bad fight by writing a story about how the fighting made them sad, hoping their mom would find it, which she did. My mom said it made her super sad and they would try to fight less. And then like the very next day, nothing changed. Do you think that that is what is at the core of like the aversion or part of it?
Like that it'll be ineffectual? Yeah. Or just kind of like, well, what's the point? Yeah, I guess so. Or maybe the aversion comes from Alex wanting to please their loving but opinionated mom growing up. Just like, oh, this is my life's purpose. I'm so happy about it. Or maybe this. I do think like probably a little bit of like being seen as a quiet, small Asian girl is part of it.
Whatever the case, Alex eventually just stopped asking for things in general. Well, I have to imagine, you know, not asserting your needs and desires over and over again. That like that has to take a toll on the psyche somehow. No, I'm doing great. It feels like you're almost constantly making yourself smaller. Or I feel like.
I'm almost more comfortable smaller. But then occasionally I'll be, I'll get resentful or upset that I have found myself so small. Over the years, Alex has tried to find ways to deal with these feelings. They've been in therapy since they were 19. And when they used to work at a frozen yogurt shop, they go out back with a broomstick and smash cardboard boxes.
Screaming on the highway helps them too. Oh, I do love to do that! That scream. When I heard Alex scream in the car, I wanted to try too. Scream!
Because as someone who also has trouble saying what I want, despite being a host and a union shop steward, who the other week couldn't ask for a glass of water at my in-law's house even though I was thirsty, it's not just the resentment of not taking up space with your desires and feelings. It's the shame of being somebody who doesn't.
I feel like there's all this discourse out there about let's get rid of the stereotype of the quiet, submissive Asian woman, which I think is so important. And also, I sometimes quietly think to myself, God, but like, what if that's me? Right. Because also, I feel like people see me as very like deadpan Asian.
I feel like that is also a stereotype. And I'm like, oh, God, what part is me and what part is the stereotype? Yes. You're like, did I get conditioned this way because of like racism, patriarchy, et cetera? Or am I really this way?
Right. But it is interesting because I feel like there is this stereotype. But then at the same time, the stereotype of like loud Asian mom or whatever. I never thought about putting those two stereotypes together. Do you start out?
As the quiet, and then because of rage and not asserting yourself all throughout life, you become the loud, very assertive, bitchy mom. I never thought about the transition point or that it's fueled by rage. But Alex is tired. Tired of doing things they don't want to do. Hurting people they don't want to hurt.
And so Alex is ready to address their power version. Not wanting to be this person who rolls over all the time anymore. Will it feel good? I don't know. After the break, we enlist the help of a power professional. If you had all the power you wanted, what would you do with it? ♪
There is a lot happening right now in the world of economics. You may have heard about the president's desire for a sovereign wealth fund. If your country is small, well-governed and has a surplus, it is probably a good idea. We are not any of those. We're here to cover federal buyouts, the cost of deportation and so much more. Tune in to NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money.
On the Embedded Podcast. No. It's called denying a freedom of speech. It's misinformation. Like so many Americans, my dad has gotten swept up in conspiracy theories. These are not conspiracy theories. These are reality. I spent the year following him down the rabbit hole, trying to get him back. Listen to alternate realities on the Embedded Podcast from NPR. All episodes available now.
Hey, it's A. Martinez. I work on a news show. And yeah, the news can feel like a lot on any given day. But you just can't ignore las noticias when important world-changing events are happening. So that is where the Up First podcast comes in. Every single morning in under 15 minutes, we take the news and boil it down to three essential stories so you can keep up without feeling stressed out. Listen to the Up First podcast from NPR. The challenge of doing a story about somebody who compulsively yes ands
is how do you know that they're not just yes-ending you to make you happy? I brought this up with Alex in our first interview. How will I know you're not just like trying to please me? You'll never know. And then it happened. I'd pitched Alex on a coaching session with a power professional, someone who could help Alex navigate the invisible power dynamics running underneath everyday interactions and
And they were into it, especially if it's a breakdown of each interaction. Like, that's so fascinating to me. But the day of the session, there's a problem. Do you even want to do it? No, but I don't. It's fine. It's like the same cycle that I feel like we've been talking about where I just feel very resentful right now. I think because at some point I, like...
Didn't speak up for what I wanted. Two months in, Alex says they're feeling exhausted by the story. Sick of spending so many hours on interviews. Sick of me asking to talk to their friends. They're saying that they don't want to do the session today, but also that they do. What do you want and how are you feeling right now are probably the two hardest questions in the world to me. We talk it out. Alex feels better. Thank you.
They say they want to do the session. And I double check. I triple check. Do you want to do this or not? Yes. So, a few hours later, the session starts on video call. Hi, Kasia. Nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you, too. The power professional, her name's Kasia Urbaniak. She spent 17 years working as a professional dominatrix and now teaches classes on interpersonal power dynamics.
Things like asking for a raise, advocating for yourself at the doctor's office, dealing with your boss, putting their hand on your thigh. Very often when we're trying to be powerful, our gendered conditioning gets in our way and we end up accidentally maintaining the status quo we want to change. I came across Kasia's work after reading her book Unbound, A Woman's Guide to Power.
And to be clear, despite the title, Kasia works with people from all marginalized genders, such as people like Alex.
And normally, self-empowerment books aren't my thing. But I was interested in the way Kasia talks about power dynamics. How she zooms in on what you can do in that wiggle room beneath all the other systems of power. Race, class, gender. Anybody that gets objectified is also getting pushed into the submissive state. Again, this isn't therapy. Kasia isn't a therapist.
She says she's not trying to understand the root of why someone does what they do. But what you're about to hear does get personal and intense. Because, Dikasha, power starts with the ability to access your deepest desires. So tell me what you want. Tell me something about what you want. Okay. Well, when Yo-Ai first asked me this question, I said I have no wants. Yeah. Why would you volunteer for this?
Um, I guess I like or I want to be known and understood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kasia doesn't seem satisfied with the response. She wants a more concrete desire from Alex to work with.
So she asked the question again. If you had all the power you wanted, what would you do with it? And again. But what's the thing you want? In different ways. Not what do you want to stop or prevent or to be relieved of. In different tones. Do you want this? What do you want? Do you want anything? What's the thing I want? That's hard. Yeah, I want... Alex doesn't finish their sentence. Kasia suggests that by continuing to hide their preferences and desires...
Alex is able to exert some control, but not in a way that feels good for anyone. Not only do the people in your life not know where the boundary is with you, it's not just that you don't tell them, stop, this hurts, I don't like this. It's not just that you don't share your no, I suspect that you also don't share your yes.
So that I would have to know Alex for quite a long time before I knew how specifically to light you up, to turn you on, to bring you to orgasm, to blow your mind. I would need quite a bit of time before I knew how to make you happy. I just saw your mood change. Yeah, I think maybe I'm in like a little bit of not defensive mode, but maybe I feel like outsmarted a bit and I don't know what to expect.
So Kasia tries again. Do you have any career desires? Do you want a relationship with your family? I'm still looking for your desire. What do I want until right now? I feel just like I'm drowning, trying to get your approval. What's going on right now? I am trying not to cry, but it's not working. Let's take a break and I'm going to rethink how to approach this. Okay.
Okay. Okay. We sign off. And I have no idea what just happened. Like, oh my god. Did Alex not want to do this? Should I have intervened? Are they okay? Hey. Kasia calls me on the phone. So this is super painful because this is the first time in 10 years where I've had this much trouble working with somebody. Kasia says she feels, quote, suffocated by an avalanche of flowers and butterflies.
She says she needs a cheeseburger and a good night's rest. Definitely a break before trying again. If Alex wants to try again. I personally feel like this was a catastrophe. Really? And that I failed miserably and the session hasn't even started. We haven't even started doing the thing that I thought I was doing here. I don't know. I don't expect Alex to be feeling great right now. I call Alex. Hey, how are you doing?
Fine, how are you? I didn't realize it was going to be like that. I'm sorry if, like, that was not good for you. And Alex, to my surprise, is not shaken like Kasia. Yeah, all I needed was a pee break. I don't, like, I'm fine. Okay, okay. But, like, diving in. So if it's mostly around, like, affecting me, like, I don't.
I just like want to see it through. Alex says they want to keep going. Okay, okay. And when I check in with them a few days later to see how they're feeling, still a yes. That'd be awesome. Yeah, I want to read her book and everything. Yeah. And maybe it's the directness and warmth in their voice. Maybe it's because they've had a few days. This time, I believe them. No, I felt good and I felt very excited. I'm sorry you were worried. Um.
Right, because I did also cry during it. When we return, the power verse and the power expert face off for a rematch. Hi. Hi. Oh my God, your doggy is so cute. Oh, thank you. Well, we are gathered here today. Alex and Kasia agreed to meet on video call again a week later.
And I bring up another thing Alex told me about last session, that they actually felt powerful by the end of it. Like they'd beaten Kasia at her own game.
which was confusing. The aversion to power makes sense to me, but I don't confuse that for a second with actual powerlessness. In fact, Kasia agrees with Alex. You won! You literally won. And I know there was no other intent, no malice, but in terms of power dynamics, you won, I lost. I will, full disclosure, say that I said to my friends after, I think I broke a dominator. LAUGHTER
But Kasia isn't conceding total defeat because it was the kind of win where nobody really wins. Because she says Alex won using a kind of covert power. She didn't get anything. She prevented me from getting what I wanted. And in that process, she didn't get what she wanted either. I agree with you of like, I felt good, but I also was frustrated. Like, no, I want to keep going. Yeah. Yeah.
So it's going to feel really, really, really good in the defensive sense of not getting gotten. But also, over enough time, not getting gotten is its own tragedy.
Alex has a lot of experience not getting got. They brought this up with me before. Oh, this is the thing you want from me? Well, you can't have it. It's a protective stalemate that Kasha thinks people can develop as a coping mechanism, but doesn't help you get what you want. The survival strategy for that is to have your own personal preferences erased, be invisible.
So I don't want anything. I don't need anything. I'm no trouble. I'm not here. The issue with that is for an individual human being, power and desire are interrelated. You can't be powerful without wanting something because what are you using the power for? And if you're not using the power for what you want, you're not powerful, right? If you're using the power for what your parents want or for what somebody else wants, that's not power. So if Alex's aversion to power isn't getting them what they want...
How can they start using power to get what they do want? To address this, Kasia has a framework for thinking about power dynamics between people. She thinks it's useful to focus on attention, what she calls the dominant and submissive states. Language, she says, she's borrowing from her experience as a dominatrix.
But she wants to be clear. I'm not talking about BDSM. I'm just using those words in the context of communication and power. Takasha, the dom and sub states aren't about bullying or getting on your knees, this binary way we tend to think about dominance and submission in our culture. It's about controlling the direction of your attention in any given interaction for the purpose of connection. Every single person uses both states of attention. Takasha says the
The dominant state is all about putting your attention on the other person. It's outward. So you take notice. You ask questions. If you're in the dominant state of attention and you're talking to someone and you're watching to see if they get it, if they don't get it, you don't keep going. You have to slow down. If you're not fully in touch with the person that you're leading, you could harm them. You could hurt them. Kasia thinks people misunderstand dominance.
So when somebody's mansplaining or yelling at someone... It's somebody who's performing dominance, but their attention isn't fully on how this is being received. It's full of ego, and the attention is partly in, I'm so great, and partly out. And even though Alex thinks of himself as more submissive in life, according to Kasha's theory...
they might actually have already mastered the dominant state of attention, at least on stage. I think I feel the most comfortable when I'm in the crowd. In fact, they once did an entire hour-long set just of crowd work, just pure attention on the audience, making jokes for their reactions, and loved it. That is some edgy, edgy stuff. It's my favorite thing. You're a daredevil.
The submissive state, on the other hand, is all about going inward with your attention, checking in with how you really feel, what you really want. I like this. I don't like that. I really don't like that. I love that. Ooh, that felt really good. That tasted really good. Haha, that was really funny. Oh, that was really sad. That really hurt my feelings. That helps the person in the dominant position lead accurately, make jokes accurately, and
Kasia says both states are equally powerful for influencing people. And ideally, everyone would use both and switch when the moment calls for it. A constant dance. If you think about like the best conversations you've ever had or the best lovemaking sessions you've ever had, it's not two equals. It's two people's attention flawlessly and fully back and forth like in tennis. You and now you, you and now me, you and now me.
But when people don't fully inhabit either state, Kasha says power dynamics can get screwy.
Which for Alex happens all the time in their personal life. The question I did have was about, but I feel like I also do direct a lot of attention outward trying to guess what other people want in like a pretty hypervigilant state. But that doesn't feel powerful to me. What I want to call attention to is that this is a responsive right state. So like,
So their attention is outward, but it's mainly out of concern for how other people are thinking about them. It's outward in relation to yourself. And then there's Alex's main struggle. As Kasia calls it, being a bad sub. Not fully going inward with their attention to know how they really feel, what they really want, which presents all kinds of difficulties in daily life.
Like with making plans. I've had this problem for a long time where I overcommit to things. I just say yes to everything and then I'm a big canceler. Kasia thinks controlling the pacing of the conversation can help.
buying some time to go sub and check in with yourself. If you get it in your mind that you have a remote control and you have the right to pause, rewind, fast forward, record. So that you don't just blurt an automatic yes. Hold on. I can't answer now. Oh, where is it? How long have you been planning it? When do you need to know by? And instead, you can get to the particular desires you want from people. Maybe a friend thinks you're the person to complain about work with, but actually you just want to play tennis with them.
No work talk. Well, Kasia says you don't have to accept the whole package. And you might not get what you want by asking, but you might connect with your friend in a deeper way by discovering something new about both of you. It's a way to appreciate what you authentically value about the people around you. Then when you have an access to some kind of desire, you can formulate your own invitation and ask so that anytime that they come at you with the thing that they want,
You can then say, no, thanks to that. But how about this? Because I think there was a part of me that thought it would be superficial to think, oh, I like this friend for this reason and this friend for this reason. It's a really, really, really prevalent taboo. But let me reframe it for you because here's the thing. So I now know that you're a stand-up comedian. You must love making the audience laugh. Yes, it's fun. So if the people in your life know how to delight you,
Even if it's like your taste in brownies, if it's like the kind of movies you like, if they know what truly lights you up, what they can give to you, provide for you or do for you,
You are also doing them a favor. You're giving them the power to delight you so they can feel like they matter in your life. And there's no lying works here. No pretending. Oh, thank you. I'm so appreciative. It doesn't work. So giving other people instructions on how to matter in your life and how to delight you is a kindness. I like that a lot.
When we wrap up the session, the Zoom room feels warm. I felt great. The attention is moving back and forth. No blockages. You know, but one thing that I'm really enjoying with this whole exchange with you, Alex, is the places where we get disempowered.
the most insidious and most dangerous and detrimental ones are the small, constant repeat offenses, right? It's like the small things that happen all the time. They're not being able to say no, not being able to exercise your preferences, not even know what they are. And those are the ones that are happening to most of us most of the time. And it's not important enough to merit a bigger conversation. And yet,
In terms of the language of the body, how we occupy space and how we navigate our lives, it's everything. It's everything. Hi. Hi, how's it going? A few weeks later, I check in with Alex one last time. I was really nervous for this check-in call because I wanted to be like some all-powerful being by the time we talked again. But I think I'm just still, I'm still just me.
Alex has not been feeling powerful. Like, somebody recently tried to make plans to hang out, and Alex didn't want to. And they didn't say yes, but they didn't say no. And they're still avoiding a neighbor they've been beefing with. Are you using your front yard? No. But if Alex thinks hard about it, they have been making more requests lately. They recently got this adorable rescue pup named Bandit. Hey!
Which also means needing to ask people to watch Bandit. Bandit, you cannot go to the bathroom right now. The place where it says no duds at all. That's the best spot. And Alex has found a community to do that for each other. Also just going on walks together. Good job, you guys. Yeah, it's been this really nice thing of like, oh, before I would have never had a reason to...
to ask them for these things. And it's been nice to like have this bond with them now. It's like asking for things that you need and then getting them fulfilled is a way of connection and bonding. Like it's intimacy. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Although it does still feel like I need practice at it, but it is nice.
It's still scary in the moment. But instead of throwing their phone at the wall or doing whatever they can to avoid having to rely on someone else, Alex is pushing through. Like, the other week, they asked a friend to dog sit, even though they were worried about over-asking. And even though the friend said yes... I felt relief and also a little bit like, okay, can they really do it? Am I putting them out?
But then the next day she texted me like, thank you for sharing Bandit with me. And I just thought that was really nice of like, oh, I didn't even see it as like, she likes to hang out with him and have our two dogs hang out. And it's not just me being a terrible imposition. Turns out letting other people yes and you.
Not so terrible. You can like tell when she's got a poop growing. Oh, that's good. I wish Bandit had a tail for that. A huge tail. He doesn't like a butthole tail. Although the other day he started rubbing his butt on the ground more and I was like, oh, maybe that's it. That's it for today's show.
This episode was produced by Phoebe Wang, Lee Hale, with a big assist from Ariana Garib Lee, Claire Marie Schneider, Nick Nevis, Andrew Mambo, and our incredible intern, Sarah Long. This season of Invisibilia was also produced by me, Kiyomiya Kanatis, Yahweh Shaw, and Abby Wendell. Our supervising producer is Liana Simstrom, and our supervising editor is Nina Patuk.
Fact-checking by Greta Pittenger. Additional research help from Debbie Goodhertz and Lauren Beard. Mastering by James Willits. Our technical director is Andy Heuther. Legal and standard support from Kimberly Sullivan and Tony Cavin. Thank you, thank you to all the listeners who wrote in about your experiences with power and all the people we spoke to, Summer Hill, Fatima Hirsi, Lindsay Klonig, Maren Robinson, Malini Stamp,
And thank you to these experts, Catherine Hall, Peter Bellamy, Jonathan Smucker, and so many more. You can find a bunch of interesting articles, books, and studies that informed our reporting on our episode page.
Also, additional thanks to Alexandra Dixon, Adelina Lansomese, Bruce Oster, Carly Boyce, Cassius Adair of Sylveon Consulting, Christina Kim, Emily Fang, Jennifer Schmidt, Jess Jang, Luis Treyes, Kyle Pulley, Lane Kaplan-Levinson, Lina Sons-Giri, Sam Leeds, and Skylar Swenson.
Our deputy managing editor is Shirley Henry, and our senior vice president of programming is Anya Brennan. Theme music by Infinity Knives, and additional music in this episode provided by Connor Lafitte, Connor Moore from Seymour Sound, Henry Schiller, Magnus Moon, courtesy of Tribe of Noise, and Ramtin Arablui. And I cannot let you go without telling you about something I learned that is now burned into my brain. Of course, one last power tidbit.
So I talked to this researcher, Vanessa Bonds, who studies what happens when people make requests. And her work shows it's not just Alex with the problem. It's also the people who are doing the asking, who in all her studies consistently underestimate how hard it is for other people to say no to them. So there's this sort of misperception that it's easy to say no. Yeah, so when Vanessa makes requests, especially when she has more power,
Like with graduate students, she tries to make sure they're not just yes anding. And she does this simple thing where she just makes people email her their answer. I won't even let people tell me in person their answer to a question where I'm like, I'm not 100% sure. I'm just like, please just think about it. Oh, that's a smart move. Like give people more time. They might have a no in them.
Yeah. Anyways, you can find out more about Vanessa's research in a Q&A in this week's newsletter, as well as seriously cute photos of Alex and their dog, Bandit. Sign up at npr.org slash invisibilianewsletter. Alrighty. See you next week. Okay.
Oh, this is like not story related. So my friend lives in L.A. She has this birthday party this weekend and she's trying to make like this giant fat of guacamole. Oh my gosh. I think the recipe calls for like a lot of avocados. But anyways, I was just wondering, like, do you have any avocados to spare? Yeah.
I have some on hand. They're like the ones that have like blemishes on them, but they're like generally pretty solid on the inside. And then I can also check my tree, but Alex, this was the test. Oh my God. Seriously? No, I failed. I failed with such flying colors. No, this was a test. And all I did was like, let me try to help you.