The science behind BioVanta: a natural solution to inflammation
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Welcome to today's episode of Lexicon. I'm Christopher McFadden, contributing writer for Interesting Engineering. In this episode, Dr. Nazli Latifi joins us to discuss how BioVanta takes a science-backed, plant-based approach to finding information and improving symptom relief. Cold and flu medications have remained unchanged for decades. Do they treat the root cause? Let's find out.

Gift yourself knowledge. iPlus is a premium subscription that unlocks exclusive access to cutting-edge stories, expert insights, and breakthroughs in science, technology, and innovation. Stay ahead with the knowledge that shapes the future. Nazli, thanks for joining us. How are you today? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. Our pleasure. For our audience's benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?

Yeah, sure. I'm a scientist. I did my PhD in neurobiology and I studied adhesion molecules that link up neurons together in the developing brain. And just by chance, I came up upon some research and some studies that some of these same molecules that I was studying are actually act as receptors for respiratory viruses.

And I thought it was really cool. And, you know, fast forward, we have BioVanta and Applied Biological Laboratories, which has a number of other antiviral technologies. Fantastic. That sounds incredibly complicated.

Right. So first question. And so what led you to revisit plant-based aspirin as a treatment for colds and flu? And how does it compare to synthetic, here we go, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen? So we started out interested in respiratory viruses and how they infect. And in the course of that, we learned that through the literature that

that respiratory symptoms are the result of inflammation. And inflammation is your body's natural response to a threat. However, it needs to be measured and it needs to be regulated. Otherwise, you get excess inflammation, extra symptoms, feel worse, feel sick,

And sometimes it leads to other disorders like autoimmune disorders and asthma and things like that. So it's a very fine-tuned control process. And we chose aspirin because it acts directly on the bradykinin-cox enzyme pathway that is triggered as a result of

respiratory threat like a virus binding on to its receptor and activating what are called toll-like receptors and other receptors that are activated when your body senses a viral threat. Okay yeah with a suffer of hay fever and all too well the problems yeah and

So can you explain how BioVanta targets respiratory inflammation you kind of have differently than conventional over-the-counter cold and flu medications? Sure, yeah. So conventional over-the-counter cold and flu medications, unfortunately, and to our great surprise, do nothing to treat the root cause, which is the underlying inflammation. At least in the US, I'm not sure. I mean, your audience is from all over the world, but I haven't really come across any

any over-the-counter drug anywhere, although I've done the most extensive search in the U.S., that really targets the underlying inflammation. And in the U.S. especially, these drugs came on the market in the 1950s, and the active ingredient in almost all of them, which I can list for you, is dextromethorphan, phenylephrine, pseudoephedrine,

and guifinacine they're they're they almost all act on uh neurotransmitters which i know all too well because that's my field so i was kind of um stupefied when i learned all this and i'm like okay well you have to really take a different approach and make a better product okay um

I'm used to using satirism. I don't know what chemicals in that. Like you say, it doesn't seem to trigger the underlying cause and there's really big symptoms. It makes me so drowsy all the time afterwards. Presumably with your product, are there many major side effects with it?

No, it's just really designed to specifically target the inflammation that's being caused by the respiratory irritation. So we actually did a clinical trial, which is published in a peer-reviewed journal, PLOS One. It's a free access journal, so anyone can access the data and the study.

And we didn't have any side effects related to the treatment. We studied 159 randomized controlled subjects with, you know, all different backgrounds. So, and there's really nothing mechanistically to suggest that there's going to be any major side effects because they're all natural. Not that natural is always good, but, you know, we do know that if they're

if they're found naturally in the body, then it's less likely that they're going to interfere with anything, right? So yeah, they're all natural. They're a natural part of your immune response. Lysozyme and lactoferrin, two ingredients that we have are naturally found in your mucus, and they are part of your innate immune system. So

To answer your question, no, we don't expect any side effects nor have we seen any major ones. Okay. And how long, I don't know what the exact term is, how long does it last in the body? Is it sort of like a normal anti-histamine or like 24 hours or less because it's naturally occurring? Is your body breaking down faster? I guess is what I'm asking. Yeah. So it works at the site of action. So it doesn't need to remain in your system for a long time. But the dosing is about every hour.

Every hour. Okay. Can you, I suppose you can theoretically overdose with anything, but I guess you'd have to take quite a lot to overdose potentially. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's fair enough. Yeah. So you've mentioned lysozyme. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And lactoferrin. How do these enhance the immune response compared to synthetic alternatives? So these are really cool molecules. They're an integral part of colostrum, which is the early phase of...

breast milk in all mammals. And they are part of the innate immune system because they directly sequester. They're known to directly sequester viruses and bacteria. And they also

They also signal dendritic cells and macrophages, which are part of the early immune response that kick in before your body is able to form antibodies. And that's really important because it takes your body up to five days to a week to really start generating antibodies, even if you've gotten vaccinated. So this is the reason that people get exposed to respiratory viruses and they've been vaccinated and they still get sick.

They do get less sick. They're less likely to be hospitalized. That's true. But, you know, they get sick nonetheless. And we're trying to, with our products, just cut down on the discomfort and the sick time. You know, even though these are generally self-limiting diseases, they're not pleasant. Okay. So does it, obviously it prevents inflammation, but does it stop production of sort of phlegm and mucus and...

the general rubbish you get in your lungs and things like that at all or not. That's next on the list for us to check. We do think that they do. There is a...

A very high likelihood that they do because, you know, your body is signaling for lysosomal lactoferrin to get released. And once it finds out that, you know, once it senses that they are, then there's no need to really produce more mucus. So most likely it will do that. Okay. And could it be used like say for hay fever? I kind of haven't for a couple of years to be fair, but before I was taking one every day, just...

not necessarily having the symptoms, but to kind of ward it off. Would this product be safe to use? Well, yeah, I think you said every hour, but sort of daily as a kind of precautionary medication or not? Is that not what it's intended for? Yeah, in fact, yes, definitely. One of our products is classified as a dietary supplement, meaning that the ingredients in it are classified as generally regarded as safe. And the ingredients come from food sources.

So lysozyme, lactoferrin, menthol, and the winter green oil that we use all come from food grade sources. So definitely safe. All right then. On that subject then, I think your product, does it contain aloe vera, I believe? Is that correct? Yes. Aloe vera is another...

has a series of other compounds that inhibit the bradykinin pathway. So another activator of the anti-inflammatory pathway. Okay. And how exactly does that reduce respiratory inflammation? So bradykinin is one of the first signals that your cells send out once they sense that a

a virus or a foreign particle has docked on a receptor. Um,

and has caused some sort of an irritation. So once the bradykinin, you're probably more sensitive and your body sends out more bradykinin, which is why you have hay fever. It sends it out in response to allergens and stuff like that and pollutants and things. So yeah, so bradykinin is one of those first signals and that triggers prostaglandin and that triggers the cyclooxygenase enzymes.

which are directly inhibited by aspirin, as you asked before, and also wintergreen oil, which is very similar chemically to aspirin. So aloe vera acts directly on bradykinin. Right, okay. So it's obviously a natural body response to things like viruses, and obviously in my case, pollen. So it's inhibiting it using something like...

by a van to a good idea or potentially a bad idea for my body or not. If it's not causing me too much, I'm trying to say, is there a natural response to it? Body's trying to get rid of something. Am I hypersensitive for a reason? I guess is that like a mutation for me? Am I a freak? Or is it a good thing that I shouldn't really try to suppress with medication? Well, it depends what you're asking about. But so if it's a virus that your body is...

Trying to defend against, yes, it's a natural response. Will Biovanta inhibit the natural response? No. It will just augment it and make the process go faster. Whereas conventional drugs basically shut down one entire process.

you know, part of your response, which as we learn more and more about inflammation, which is a huge field that we still only have scratched the surface, we definitely know that there are many, many interconnected pathways and it's not good to completely shut down one. So like I say, like for example, with steroids, if someone has allergies,

Allergies are not protecting you from anything. They're a hyper response of your body, right? So your body is overreacting to the pollen particles that it senses and it's making you miserable. There's a whole host of reasons for that, which is not the point of this discussion right now. But if you take steroids or even antihistamines, they just basically shut down your whole response and

And there's going to be a rebound effect somehow. So they don't work with the natural response of your body, which is to balance or manage that particular part of the inflammatory pathway, not to completely shut it down. I see. So steroids, even though they're commonly prescribed for asthma, there's not a lot of evidence that they actually help in the long term. Yeah.

A lot of times people have to switch to stronger steroids. It causes different issues. It weakens their immune system. So they're more susceptible to getting sick in other ways. It's just, we try to take a much more targeted approach. Okay. Okay. And obviously your product is not ever going to be a replacement for things like vaccines, presumably, especially with something like an influenza vaccine.

No, no, no, not a replacement. But, you know, it works synergistically with vaccines. So vaccines trigger your adaptive immune system.

That's the later phase of your immune system. It's your body's specifically making antibodies that specifically target, you know, DNA patterns that are expressed on the specific virus that you were exposed to. They're very effective and long lasting. They're amazing. Vaccines are amazing.

But the antibodies that they produce take five days to a week to kick in. We strengthen what's called the innate immune system or the earlier immune response. So we trigger, you know, your body to fight the infections at an earlier time point. And it's really important right now because we're dealing with influenza and, you know, this virus.

this scare of potentially that the bird flu is going to spread to humans. And we can see with influenza vaccines, they're never 100% just because the flu virus mutates so rapidly. So in cases like this, yes, of course, get the flu vaccine. But since it's impossible as of now to design a vaccine that's going to be 100% effective,

in a race with the mutation of the flu virus, it's best to have something that would augment your initial early response. Okay. So if I'm understanding correctly, it's like a first, like you say, a first response to help your body's first response to a potential virus. So kind of slow down the rate of infection. Am I understanding correctly in theory? Yeah. So

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Essentially it is a rate of infection because it's, so the virus binds to the receptor and then it's, you know, sole mission is to replicate itself as rapidly as possible using your cells, right? And your body's initial response are to send out macrophages and dendritic cells, which line your epithelia in your nose and throat and to basically, you

They're like little Pac-Man cells that are there to eat up the virus. So what we do is we speed up that process. And if that process doesn't go fast enough, then the infection progresses. And eventually your antibodies are going to kick in, hopefully before it goes to your lungs, because then that will be very serious. But, you know, your antibodies kick in and, you know, usually you'll be fine. But I mean, it could last seven to 10 days. So...

Do you have any data on, let's say, the elderly and the very young are most susceptible to bad encounters with the flu? Have you found it's benefiting the old and the young? Well, in a good way, basically. Yeah, so we don't have any direct evidence because we didn't do those clinical trials. They definitely are on the list because we had such a good...

response with the clinical trial that we did, we saw 70% in adults, 70% decrease in symptoms in less than two days. We expect that we're going to get great results with other populations as well, but we haven't. This was our, you know, our first clinical trial. So yeah, we plan to do that in the future, but theoretically that's definitely, I definitely think that that's definitely possible and highly probable because we

Uh, one of the, the lysozyme and lactoferrin are, are two factors that are found to be decreased in, um, people that are more susceptible to getting sick. Okay. And we add that back. So. Interesting to see your results on that then. Um, great. Um,

Do you think it would have in any, well, is it, is it available to, obviously it's still going through clinical trials, the product by Aventa. My understanding, it's not for sale right now. You can't buy it. Oh no, it is. It is. It's been on the market. Yeah. For a couple of years in the U S it's available on Amazon. Um, we are working to distribute it more broadly to other countries. It's, uh, we just did what's called like, um,

a post-market study because it's classified as an over the, because of the ingredients we use, um, which are aspirin, um, which is already, you know, classified as an over the counter drug. And then we use lysozyme and lactoferrin. So we have two products, one, which has aspirin and that's, that's classified as an over the counter drug. And then we have another product that has lysozyme and lactoferrin and we use winter green oil and aloe vera. And, um, that's classified as a dietary supplement. Okay. Okay. Is it, um,

only available in the US or are you exporting it? So far, yes, it's only available in the US. I'm not really sure. I mean, it's on Amazon and you could try to order it from our website. Yeah.

If it will let you, we'd love to ship it to you. All right. Okay. So with an experiment. Okay, the next question, switching tracks a bit. So wintergreen oil and natural menthol have been used for centuries in traditional medicine. What does modern science say about their effectiveness in cold and flu treatment? So we write about that in our paper because we saw such great effects, a 70% decrease in symptoms,

across a whole range of symptoms. So stuffy nose, I mean, congestion, rhinorrhea, runny nose, sore throat, cough, sneezing, you name it. So nasal and throat symptoms, we saw major decreases. So

It's definitely working on the pathway that's interconnecting the whole respiratory system. And yeah, these have been known for centuries because people have been using them and feeling good effects. But now we know we can analyze how they're working and revisit them and use them in ways that

that can possibly work better than synthetic molecules. Absolutely. And then, Phil, there's a godsend. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, what's really interesting is there are some papers published

not too far back, but a few years that we referenced in our study, in our clinical trial paper, that shows that there are volatile organic compounds in menthol and in wintergreen oil that when you spray them in your throat,

get activated and actually go through your nose and there are receptors that they dock on and they could that's how they're having this anti-inflammatory effect it's pretty amazing incredible I find the same maybe it's it's not true but if I eat onion raw onion I get a similar effect to mental not as good but still quite potent I don't know if there's any I could see that I could see that and wasabi yeah you know I could see that yeah

Anyway, so how did you navigate the regulatory and scientific challenges of bringing your plant-based NSAID to market? So, yeah, it was just, it was a very technical process. So we had to read through, I mean, we started with a scientific approach, which is just to understand the pathways. And so, you know, first we,

developed antiviral drugs to inhibit the attachment of viruses to their natural receptors. And then we started studying what the process is of respiratory inflammation that leads to symptoms. And then we said, okay, what's the regulatory process for addressing these issues? And it was obviously nobody goes

to get a prescription for sneezing and runny nose. So we said, okay, we have to look through, look to the over the counter. Well, what's over the counter, what's sold over the counter and how did they work? And, um, you know, that's when I was really surprised that nothing takes a scientific approach to actually solving the underlying problem. And all of these came to market in the fifties and sixties. Um, and,

When basically you tested things by giving them to people and see how do you feel, right? Well, people felt good because these happen to be, you know, um,

they affect neurotransmitters, serotonin. So they felt good. So that probably augmented the placebo effect, but they're doing nothing to the issue at hand, which is the respiratory inflammation. And then we said, okay, have these ever been tested in clinical trials? What's on the market? And we were even more surprised that they have been tested several times in many studies, many men analyses, and

and they have never been proven effective. If there are, is, you know, one or two studies here and there that proves efficacy, if you really read it in detail, you'll see that the efficacy is only after a couple of hours. So there's a rebound effect. And the rebound effect, especially for things like guifinacine and other decongestants, is very real, and that's also very documented. So

Then we just, you know, we went further and we said, okay, is there anything, any over-the-counter that could potentially do anything, you know, for the root cause of these symptoms? And aspirin was the best thing that we found. And aspirin actually also has been studied in a clinical trial, but

One that we found that we referenced in our paper and it showed about a 20% improvement in symptoms. That particular study was aspirin with vitamin C. But vitamin C has been studied separately and hasn't been found to be effective once you're already sick. It could be a good preventative. But so we attributed the aspirin to the 20% and it was 20 to 30%, I believe.

And, um, that was the best efficacy we found. Uh, it made sense from a molecular point of view mechanistically what it's doing, which is inhibiting the cyclooxygenase enzymes. So, um, you know, we said, let's go ahead with aspirin. Then we studied it in our models in the lab and it worked very well. And, um, so, you know, that's what we added to our formula. And then through regulatory work, we found out that, um,

we could using aspirin we could make claims that were in line with aspirin claims and um and then the supplement product has food grade um ingredients which are lysazine, lectoferrin, aloe vera. Okay is it aspirin am I right in thinking was originally derived from a plant or tree bark or something? Yep yep. Interesting amazing um

Okay, then. So the pharmaceutical industry has long relied on synthetic compounds for mass production. Do you see a broad shift towards natural plant-based medicines in the future? I do, I do. I think that there's a, I mean, there's definitely a consumer base that will always want the, you know, the synthetic compounds.

material because it's cheaper. They're only just interested in how it makes them feel. That's totally fine. There's a place for that. Then there's also

a growing base of dissatisfied consumers that want to live holistically, that want to treat the root cause of things that might maybe be more sensitive and say, Hey, like this is making me, like you said, you know, I take it and it makes me feel drowsy, which like is not an intended effect, you know? So, you know, can I find something better? Um, and so, yeah, so we, we intend to fill that gap.

We are behind the, any anti-stimulant I've ever tried. It knocks me out. In about six hours, I have to sleep for about an hour. I can't control it. Body just shuts down. So any kind of, especially for me, it's not so important, but I don't know, for say a pilot or someone who has a very important job, where that would be a very bad thing. BioVenta would be a perfect product, I would have thought.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or I would advise them, yeah, to maybe take aspirin or ibuprofen. Ibuprofen is similar to aspirin in the anti-inflammatory respect that aspirin is a little stronger. And yeah, antihistamine also be careful because I think it can also cause dry eye, which is, you mentioned pilots, you don't want. Yeah, exactly. To be on that plane. Yeah.

Me as well. I've got some allergies to other chemicals that tend to be combined with aspirin. So you get aspirin plus something else. And the other thing, yeah, an allergy to that. So you've got to be careful. But yeah, I'll definitely try just aspirin, I think, going forward. Otherwise, just for headaches. So you emphasize transparency in ingredients, avoiding hidden chemicals. Why is this an important issue in over-the-counter medications? Yeah.

So I think, um, I'll give you an analogy. Um, I'm not a big drinker, but you know, I was having some people over and wanted to make some margaritas. So I went to go buy some tequila and, um,

I don't really know that much about tequila. So, um, the person at the store was telling me, you know, telling me all the, offering me all these options. And he said that this one brand, this new brand doesn't use any, um, any additives. And, and then he informed me that, uh, the, that tequila manufacturers are allowed to put up to 1% of, um,

contaminants are allowed to remain in the tequila. So I was like, wow. Yeah, I just, I mean, again, there are people that just don't want to be, especially in this environment that we're living in, there's so much pollution everywhere. They want to just minimize it. There are people that it just doesn't occur to them. They don't care. They just want the cheaper thing or, you know,

It's not going to kill them. So whatever. Let me just take it. I mean, that's fine. But, you know, we're we're filling the gap with with people that just want to minimize the contaminants and aspirin that's not plant derived is derived from petroleum. OK, so.

And so, I mean, you can imagine all the stuff that you're ingesting, especially if you're taking the aspirin every four hours over the course of even several days. I mean, I would think that that adds up. Right. Um, so yeah, so this is just, uh, it's just more pure. Um, it's not, I don't even, I don't even think it's that much more expensive. Um,

I'm not sure it might be a little bit more expensive, but especially if you're, you know, if you're going to take it over the course of a while, over the course of while you're sick is for people that would just want to minimize that. And, you know, especially now in the U S we're talking, they're talking about fluoride in the water and the, the fluoride in the water is, you know, comes also from plastics manufacturing. It's a by-product of plastic manufacturing. Right. That's the one that they put in the water.

I mean, I just don't, yeah. Is it going to kill you? Maybe not, but I don't think it's really great either. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. So we're with, well, specifically just tequila, but a 1% contamination of what? Microplastics? What? Cyanide?

Well, I don't even think it's microplastics. Microplastics is an addition to whatever else it is because microplastics is its own whole thing, right? But that even proves my point even more. I mean, we're all ingesting all these microplastics and I don't think anyone wants that, right? Yeah.

Do we have peer-reviewed studies yet of what that does to you? No, but it's pretty logical to me that that's not good. Absolutely. I think I saw somewhere it's the kind of younger generation's version of, boomers, I hate using that term, but they had a lot of problems with lead, didn't they? Lead poisoning and things. Well, lead contamination in their bodies. So microplastics is our generation's problem. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, indeed. Okay. So building on that, then there's growing skepticism about traditional over-the-counter medications and the demand for clean label remedies. How do you see this trend shaping the future of consumer healthcare? Well, I mean, especially in this age of microplastics and environmental contamination everywhere, I just think that people are becoming more aware and more concerned. And I

I think that, you know, there are going to be a lot of indirect positive outcomes for the environment. So, you know, if we like, for example, the aspirin, if we rely less on petroleum for manufacturing pharmaceuticals, that's got to be better for the environment because it's less reliant on petroleum. And

It's not even only the petroleum. It's probably a small amount of petroleum that's used, but the whole extraction process for actually extracting...

um and or making chemical um aspirin out of petroleum is probably very very energy intensive you know probably requires a lot of different solvents right it's much more straightforward to extract extract it from a plant which it naturally occurs in rather than trying to take it through like 20 or 30 step chemical process to break bonds and reconnect them and you know

make one chemical out of a totally different chemical. So, but I think to answer your question, like the whole shift towards just being more conscious of everything is going to really have a ripple effect, a ripple positive effect in the,

other realms. Would you consider, I don't know, genetically modified bacteria? I don't know if they exist, but can produce aspirin. Would you consider that kind of clean label production process or not? Well, I mean...

I don't know. I mean, it depends on how easy. Well, I don't think you could make aspirin and bacteria. Maybe you can. But for my knowledge, it's used only to make mostly to make organic chemicals. But but I understand your question. So, yeah, I would look into, again, like how energy intensive it was, you know, how much waste it produced.

Oh, and going back to the petroleum aspirin, it probably also produces a lot of waste. That doesn't break down. So, yeah, I mean, I think that people are starting to look at things more holistically as a process, what the production is, how it affects the environment, what the downstream costs are. And I hope that

sincerely hope that we continue to go down this direction. Yeah, I'm of the opinion that nature knows best with these kind of things. Anything, the closest you can get to a natural process to produce something like this, which asprin, which is, like we said, originally found in nature, is only a good thing in my view. But there we go.

So beyond cold and flu treatment, do you see plant-based NSAIDs in managing other inflammatory conditions like chronic pain or autoimmune disorders? Yes, potentially I do. And aspirin has been used for those things. It's just that it has an irritation on the stomach lining. So hopefully, you know, people can figure out better enteric coatings for them.

But I also think that more importantly, the way that we focus or we specifically use this NSAID to target a specific pathway and the logical reason for that is hopefully going to have an effect on other treatments of other inflammatory disorders. So like for arthritis, I don't know.

that much about arthritis at the moment, but I, you know, I can definitely, you know, tell you that it's probably a very specific inflammatory pathway and, you know, just taking high doses of steroids or, you know, anti-inflammatory drugs that just shut everything down is probably not the best way to heal it. Okay. Okay. Um,

I mean, kind of a completely different topic, really, but artificial intelligence is being used a lot for designing new molecules and whatnot in various industries. Do you see any application for it in this kind of area? I don't... Not really off the top of my head. Potentially down the line, when we learn more about inflammation, it could probably...

You could probably create algorithms to understand how they all connect with each other, but I think we need to make the discoveries first. Of course. I think AI is only good at using discoveries that have been made, but there's still a lot to uncover in the biological process, and that really needs hands-on experiments to be done. That's fair enough. I mean, if it does develop a new molecule, you still would be able to produce it.

Yeah, and test it and find out what it does. Exactly. Okay, that is all my questions. Is there anything else you'd like to add? You think it's important that we haven't mentioned? Yeah, so you mentioned natural that you...

you feel that nature is the way to go. And, um, I just want to add to that, that, you know, I totally agree. And it's not as simple as because people say, oh, well, you know, um, there are things in nature that can kill you, or there are things that are synthetic that are, you know, that work well. Yes, that's, that's true. Um, but the reason that I advocate really for natural ingredients is not because they're more healthy per se, which, but usually they are, but I don't, not always. Um,

But it's not only that. It's the whole cycle of how they're produced, how they break down in the environment. Nature is an ecosystem. Everything is an ecosystem. And even the things that we make man-made become part of the ecosystem. But if they don't break down and they don't fit in the ecosystem, then they...

you know, they're going to damage something, right? It's like we see with global warming, right? We're putting too much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. We're getting fires. We're getting weird weather. You know, everything is designed to work together. So that's the reason that, you know, we like using natural processes and natural products. Absolutely. I mean, I've just seen it as like a billion, multi-billion year long science experiment, you know, experiment.

There's no way we can possibly compete with that in my view, but that could be wrong. Yeah, no, no, exactly. And aspirin is actually produced by plants over these billions of years. It's their antiviral defense mechanism.

Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Not aspirin, actually acetylsalicylic acid. Yes. No, methyl salicylic acid is found in plants. That's converted to acetylsalicylic acid. So even the plant-based aspirin, I just want to clarify, that we use is, it's not found as acetylsalicylic acid in plants, but we use the starting components, which are from plants, to convert.

turn it into aspirin. We don't use the petroleum as the starting material. That's fair. That's an important distinction, I think. Great. Well, thank you for your time, Nazli. That was very, very interesting. Also, don't forget to subscribe to IE Plus for premium insights and exclusive content.