Poland’s President on Ukraine, NATO and Europe’s future
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You're listening to a podcast from Washington Post Live, bringing the newsroom to you live. And I want to begin by asking you what difference you think it will make for Poland, for Europe and the world that he is now president. I had this meeting with Donald Trump in New York in April. Yes. That was in April, not in June. Oh, I'm sorry. Because you said in June. Forgive me. Don't want to get that wrong. So tell us.

You know, this is... Please let me answer in my mother tongue in Polish. It's easier for me and I think it will be more precise. I think it is. It is a rather unique situation if we look at the last decade or even more in the history of the United States and generally Europe and the world.

So I think the following. It is quite an extraordinary situation if you look at dozens of years in the history of the United States, Europe and the world. Because although it is possible to have two cadences in the office of the President of the United States, it is an absolutely exceptional situation when there was a break for the presidency of another president.

So although you can serve as president of the United States two terms, this time the situation is extraordinary in so much as there was a break for the presidency of another president. So we are dealing with a specific situation that still occurs in relation to a very specific person, which is President Donald Trump.

So we have got a very specific situation and this situation concerns also a very specific person. That is President Donald Trump. And let me explain why. I would like to omit at this point all the worldview issues and I would like to talk about the personality.

First of all, throughout his life, President Donald Trump was involved in something else. He was not engaged in politics.

So now, speaking very honestly, we have got a businessman, a business person at the helm of the biggest, the most powerful position in the world. And that was very much visible during his first term in office when I had to deal with President Donald Trump for the first time personally.

over two years of presidential experience and several years of political experience in different positions and in different places. And I believe it is fair to say the following because already when I met President Donald Trump I had already served as President of Poland for two years and I already had at that time an experience in different positions, also other positions. That this encounter of the world of politics, especially the European one,

with President Donald Trump, I think it was a shock for many European leaders.

And I think that this coming together of the world of European politics, European leaders with President Donald Trump came as a shock to many leaders in Europe. Because President Donald Trump used a completely different language than was accepted in politics, especially in European politics. He implemented politics in a completely different style than was accepted by politicians and what politicians are

and in my opinion, they also think in a completely different way than politicians are used to.

You have to remember that the European Union, which is here, especially in Europe, is perfectly

aware of it, so to speak, among people who are interested in politics. The European Union uses a very specific language, one could say a new political language, which even for people who are raised here in Europe and have turned in the spheres of politics, is a bit shocking at first sight.

And suddenly this European establishment met Donald Trump, who did not accept this language at all and used a completely different logic. So in the European Union, and I think that people knowledgeable about Europe know that very well, there is a very specific language which is being used. I would say it is a kind of a newspeak.

So actually, even people raised in Europe on that old continent who are not in the world of politics that often, it comes to them as a shock to hear that kind of language. And suddenly, that European establishment met with President Donald Trump, who did not accept this kind of language, and he even used different kind of logics.

And I think that's why there is such tension in Europe now, before the moment we all observed here yesterday evening, namely the seizure of power by President Donald Trump. One last sentence on this matter.

My co-worker just wrote me a text asking me what my opinion is about what we heard yesterday and what is happening in the United States. I replied: "Listen, none of them. I mean, I have no reaction to this matter because it doesn't concern us at all."

And so I think that is why we are feeling this kind of tension and observing this kind of tension here in Europe. We were all watching the yesterday's ceremony of Donald Trump being sworn in as president of the United States. And actually, the real sentence I would like to add on this one is that my colleague has just texted me and asked me about my assessment

of what we heard yesterday from President Donald Trump. And I said, listen, I have no assessment. I have no response to those words uttered by President Donald Trump because they do not concern us. The President has raised internal issues concerning the United States and its internal policy in the United States. And he has raised issues that, in my opinion, can be considered to be in some sense neighboring. So for now, Poland as such does not yet concern.

So, President Donald Trump spoke about domestic issues, about internal politics in the United States, and also he touched upon neighborly relations. So, if we speak about Poland as such, at this point in time, this does not concern us yet. So, Mr. President, let me ask you, you know him well, have seen him recently in the last year. I just want to ask you whether you are expecting to see somebody

who will behave differently in the second term than he did in the first term and if so in what ways? I will say this: I expect President Donald Trump to use a slightly different method than he did in his first term.

Well, I would expect that President Donald Trump will now use slightly different methods to the methods that he used during his first term in office. Nie wiem jakich. I don't know what kind of methods these will be. I nie jestem w stanie tutaj podjąć z Państwem dyskusji w jakiś sposób, żeby tutaj...

So I'm not able to go into any discussions and I'm not in a position to predict what kind of methods he's going to use. And do you know why? I'm very much humbled when it comes to the reality that is surrounding me. I try to be humble.

And there is one thing which is absolutely convincing to me. I have no complexes whatsoever that Donald Trump surprises me. Not because he's older than my father. And how many times I meet him, I'm really amazed that

is a man with such an incredibly emanating energy, such a vital young man.

And whenever I meet him, I'm really astounded. I'm totally surprised by how energetic he is and how much vitality there is, which would be comparable to a young person, young guy. So please believe me, ladies and gentlemen, this is true. It is not only something that you can see on TV, but this is also something that you feel when you meet him.

which is, in my opinion, the objective truth that it is so.

And I think this person has a genuine genius. I believe this is an objective truth. -

Just show me another person in this world, which once upon a time decided to become a billionaire, a tycoon, and he just clipped his fingers and it happened. Then he decided to become the President of the United States, he clipped his fingers again, and then again, it happened. And then he lost elections, but he decided to run again, and he did it once again.

I mean, believe me, I became president of the Republic of Poland, a country that is not a powerhouse, nor nuclear, nor economic. It is a large European country, ambitious. Yes, we have 38 million people who potentially want to become presidents. There are many. When I became president,

My close friends smiled and said: "Not bad, the chance was 1 in 38 million, so ha ha, but in the USA the chance is 1 in over 300 million, so I have a lot of respect for the result."

So I have to say that when I became president of Poland, well, of course, you can say that we are not a superpower as Poland. Of course, we are not either an economic superpower. We are not a nuclear superpower. Of course, indeed, we are a big, ambitious country with a population of 38 million.

So actually, there is a chance that you become a president. When I became president, well, my family smiled and said, OK, you did it. But your chance was one in 38 million. But if you look at the United States, then the chance is a different one. It is one in more than 300 million. So I've got a big respect to this achievement of President Trump. Mr. President, one of the things where Trump wants to snap those figures, and I've always wanted to be able to do it as loudly as you can.

is making peace in Ukraine. There is no issue that's more important for your country, for Europe, for the world than the war in Ukraine. President Trump has said he wants a quick settlement. And I want to ask you as a leader who's been a strong supporter of Ukraine, whether you think a quick settlement on acceptable terms is possible. And

As part of that, do you think that Vladimir Putin is really ready for negotiations? There is a very long answer to this question.

And I would like to make you short of one fact. I'm going to say something that is the result of my observations, of my personal thoughts and of my expectations. That is also connected with the person of President Donald Trump. First of all, it is obvious to me that every president acts from the point of view of the interests of his country.

First of all, it is obvious to me that every president acts from the perspective of the interests of their country. And it is naive to think that they will try to implement interests of some other country. If that happens, that means that this person is not apt to be president.

And I will say it this way. Everything that President Donald Trump will do, he will definitely do from the point of view of strategic interests of the United States.

And I can say the following. I'm sure that everything that President Donald Trump will be doing, he will be doing that from the perspective of the strategic interests of his country. I can say the following. I'm sure that everything that President Donald Trump will be doing, he will be doing that from the perspective of the strategic interests of his country. And now myself. It is a very simple thing for me. Russia has been a threat to Poland for over 500 years.

Russia has been a threat to Poland for more than 500 years. And over the last 300 years or so, we have been able to see that Russia presents a legal danger, existential threat to us.

In a double sense, first of all, that for the last 200 years the Russians have systematically murdered the Polish elites, the Polish intelligentsia, which is an obvious attempt to destroy the nation.

And there are two reasons for that. The reasons are double fold, I would say. First of all, for over 200 years now, Russians systematically murdered our elites, Polish elites and intelligentsia. And that is a very obvious attempt to destroy a nation. On the other hand, we have our own culture. We are a Christian Catholic nation. For over a thousand years, Poland was baptized before the Kievan Rus.

Exactly in 1966 we adopted our religion, which today is still the religion of most Polish citizens, Roman Catholicism from Rome. And this is what our tradition is based on, this is what our culture is based on. This is our civilizational five.

And we have got our own culture. We are a Christian nation. We are Catholics for more than 1,000 years. We were baptized in 966. We accepted that baptism from Rome. So we were baptized by Rome. And the majority of Polish people are still Catholics. They are Christians. So this constitutes the base, the foundation of our tradition, of our culture. This is like the root, so to speak, of our culture and identity.

In essence, we are part of the Western Roman civilization, not part of the Eastern Byzantine Russian civilization.

So as a matter of fact, it is our deep feeling and deep conviction that we are part of the Roman of the Western civilization and not part of the Eastern or Byzantine civilization. And in a clear way, we are not interested in the Russian peace. We just don't want it. We don't want this culture. We don't want this civilizational path. We are not interested in it. We are not interested in it as a nation.

And in a nutshell, I can say that Ruski Mir, this Russian world, the Russian peace does not interest us at all. We are not interested in this kind of culture, in this path of civilization. We are not interested. It is not interesting to our nation. So, Mr. President, as you know better than anyone, Poland has been resisting that Russian attack now bravely for almost three years. President Trump believes he can settle this war

quickly through the force of diplomacy. I do want to hear whether you think that's possible.

on terms that will not be a capitulation to this Russian civilization that you have said threatens Polish interests. And now continuing, Russia wants to spread its influence and this is the return of Russian imperialism, which we know well.

Experts who cooperate with Vladimir Putin refer to the tsarist times, when the Russian Empire reached

To the middle of Poland, near Kalisz, was the border of the Russian Imperial Empire. They refer to the times of the Soviet Union, when, as you know, Poland was behind the Iron Curtain, it was in the Soviet influence zone. For us, this is the darkest nightmare and we will do everything to defend ourselves against it.

Experts who cooperate with Putin refer to the times of Tsars and they also, that was the time when the Russian Empire, its borders reached or covered half of Poland. The border of the Russian Empire went very near to the city of Kalisz in Poland. And they are also referring to the Soviet Union when Poland, as we all know, was behind the Iron Curtain. We were part of the Soviet sphere of influence.

So that to us is the bleakest drama, the bleakest nightmare that could be realized. And we want to protect ourselves from that scenario with all our strength. In our belief, if Russia wins in Ukraine, it will continue to attack. Simply. It's a simple thing. If Russia has an inner feeling of victory,

And I would even dare to say that no matter how big the size of this victory will be, it is not even about the domination of Ukraine. But if Russia gets out of this war with a sense of victory, Russia will attack again in a moment.

So we believe that if Russia wins this war against Ukraine, it is going to launch a further attack. It is very simple. If Russia has got this internal conviction that it has been victorious in that conflict, it does not even have to seize the whole of Ukraine. It is not important how big that victory would be. If there is this internal conviction that they are victorious, they will attack again.

I want you to understand my way of thinking, because I don't know if you followed my statements. I always say that it's not about defeating Russia. No, because some people imagine that defeating Russia means a parade of winners on Red Square. No.

No.

The thing is to make it impossible for Russia to win, to prohibit Russia from winning. The thing is that we prevent Russia from achieving a big victory. It's to make sure that Russia cannot trump it that it has been victorious, that it achieved success. And that's one element, and the other is international law, really.

So this is one element. Another element, of course, is international law.

And the primacy of international law as the guarantee of peace. So this is a more theoretical element. The first element I mentioned was more practical in nature. This is more theoretical. It's about the construction of the free world.

I hope that President Donald Trump, being aware of this unique position of America as a power, he has this feeling of America's power as a power. You all heard it yesterday.

And President Donald Trump has got this feeling of extraordinary superpower of the United States. He feels that the United States is a superpower. And I believe all of you were able to hear that yesterday. Mr. President, he certainly spoke about strength yesterday in his speech. I've spoken with his advisors in the last weeks. And what I hear from them may be what you hear from them.

is that if they could get at some point to a settlement and prevent that big Russian victory, in the way you said, that they see the future guarantee for Ukrainian security and sovereignty coming in the first instance from Europe. They've talked about the possibility of European troops from France perhaps, from Britain perhaps,

being in Ukraine to help provide the stability and security to make sure that Putin is stopped wherever that line is and the war doesn't continue. So one question I have is would Poland be ready to provide troops in such a settlement to help guarantee the security of Ukraine? The reports I've seen say that Poland is not ready to do that.

And regardless of whether Poland will provide troops, do you think this is a good approach to the future security? And here we come to the moment which is very difficult for many European politicians. At least this is my sense.

President Donald Trump understands, in my opinion, that we need to stop Russian imperialism and in my opinion he understands it well. I also understand that it is in the American interest to maintain the American hegemony in this part of the world, because it will expand American interests, also economic ones.

And he also understands that it is in the American interest to keep U.S. hegemony in this part of the world because this spreads U.S. interests, also the economic ones. And I think he understands perfectly well that natural resources which are there in Ukraine would be very much needed by the United States and that would be worth having control over those resources.

Therefore, I understand perfectly well that it is in the American interest to ensure that Ukraine remains free, sovereign, independent and grateful to the United States for defending it.

So I believe that he understands that it lies in the US interests that Ukraine is a free, sovereign and independent state and that also it is grateful to the United States for defending it. However, this element that President Donald Trump has is completely natural, because it is in him, so to speak, from life preparation.

And here comes another element, which is quite natural in the personality of Donald Trump, because, well, it comes from his life preparation. Hello, kto za to zapłaci? So, hello, who's going to pay for that?

And if we are supposed to pay in the end, how much? And if we are supposed to pay in the end, how much?

And let me share with you an anecdote that there was a conversation that I had with one US general just at the beginning when I assumed office of the Polish president and that general told me, you have to send this frigate, this vessel to take part in this anti-terrorist mission in the Atlantic Ocean. I say, General, we have two frigates, Poland has two frigates, I say, we have one to send you on a mission. You have so many frigates, you force us to send this one.

And I'm answering in this way. For God's sake, General, we only have two frigates as Poland and you are telling us to send one frigate and you've got so many of them. Why are you telling us to send this one frigate? It is indecent, I told him. And I was going on and asking, why do you need this one frigate of ours? Why do you need it?

Mr. President, the frigate must be there. Of course, the frigate must be NATO. If you send the frigate, we don't have to send ours anymore. Do you understand? It's the same here. If Europe sends military units, the United States will not have to send them. And in this way, American soldiers will not risk their lives, and the United States will save money.

And if Europe sends its troops, then the US will not have to send its troops. And in this way, US soldiers lives will be spared and the United States will also save. There are two borders. On the one hand, the strategic interest of the United States, and on the other hand, the stability of the alliance relations within the North Atlantic Union. And here it must be somehow mediated.

And actually, there are two lines and we have to add to meet somewhere in between to strike a compromise. On the one hand, we've got the strategic interest of the United States. On the other hand, we have got that stability of relations within NATO, within NATO, within the North Atlantic Alliance. And politics is precisely striking this balance. So we are broadcasting this to Washington on our Washington Post live broadcast.

television. So I hope some of President Trump's advisors are watching and listening to what you're saying. And I want to ask you another difficult question of the moment. So President Trump said yesterday, I want to stop wars and I want to prevent new ones. Do you remember that line in his speech? So the way of preventing wars in Europe is called NATO.

And a big question that's ahead for Poland and the United States is whether Ukraine should be a member of NATO. As you know, the U.S. has been very nervous about it, but you've been an advocate in statements that I've read in the past.

Do you still think that Poland, that Ukraine should be a member of NATO and can you describe a process where that would happen? Perhaps where NATO would make an invitation to Poland, to Ukraine pending the end of this conflict? First of all, there is no NATO without the United States. Who thinks that NATO will exist without the United States? Well, you can think that way, but...

to not be the NATO that we all know and it will be difficult to call it that if there will be no United States there. The United States is the most powerful country in NATO and in fact no major decision of the North Atlantic Union would not fall if it were not accepted by the United States.

The United States is the most powerful country in NATO and actually there would be no key decision taken within NATO without the approval of the United States.

Because no one really imagines that any NATO action would take place without the United States. So actually, if you are thinking USA, you can think USA alone without the context of NATO. But if you're thinking about NATO, it is not possible to think without the United States being involved because there is no significant action which can be taken within NATO without the engagement of the United States. And what about Ukraine joining NATO?

And now we come back to the topics I mentioned earlier, because it all comes together. Well, ladies and gentlemen, who is able to stop Russia? Poland is not able to stop Russia. Ukraine, for the longer term, is also not able to stop Russia itself. If it hadn't stopped her, if not for the help she gets from the very beginning, from the free world, Poland would have needed that help, we would have sent over 100 tanks to Ukraine.

And now I'm coming back to the points that I made before because it is all interconnected. So who is able to stop Russia? Well, first of all, Poland is not able to stop Russia. Also, Ukraine is not able to stop Russia in the long run. Of course, it is getting all that support on itself. It wouldn't be able to stop it. It got help from day one, help of the free world. And Poland was the first country to provide that help and assistance to Ukraine. We sent more than 100 tanks to Ukraine.

The incredibly heroic defenders of Ukraine, which I want to emphasize with all my might, showed only that they are absolutely determined to defend their homeland and deserve deep respect and recognition for what they do every day, shedding blood. But they also showed that Russia is not as strong as it seemed to the whole world.

And so, first of all, if you look at those extremely heroic defenders of Ukraine, and I want to stress that they are extremely heroic, what they have demonstrated, first and foremost, is that they are absolutely determined to defend their homeland and they deserve all the respect and acknowledgement for all the blood that they have shed in the defense of their homeland. And second, they have also demonstrated that Russia is not as strong as the world had thought before. Mm-hmm.

But also, Russia, if somebody says it's not able to defeat Ukraine, well, it is able. It can defeat Ukraine. It will not defeat Ukraine if we help Ukraine. So this help is necessary, is indispensable.

Now the question arises, how to protect the free world against Russian imperialism?

only by means of a very efficient and very strong alliance such as NATO.

And this is an alliance with Donald Trump, with a president like Donald Trump inside. I once listened to an interview given by President Donald Trump. That was when he was no longer president and that was right after the outbreak of the war in Ukraine. So the question was, what would you do if you knew that Putin was going to attack Ukraine? I would take the phone, call Putin and tell him that if one bomb falls on Ukraine, I will bomb St. Petersburg.

And he answered, I would call Putin and I would say that if there is one bomb dropped in Ukraine, I will bombard St. Petersburg. And the journalist laughed and they said, and do you believe that Putin believed you? And President Trump said, no, not 95%, but 5% is enough.

And President Trump answered, I believe that he didn't, 95% he did not believe, but there is still 5% and this is enough. So I think there are many people who are hoping that you will have this conversation soon with President Trump and will be interested in what he says to you. We have only less than 10 minutes left. I want to ask you a little bit about Europe. Poland this month took over the presidency of the European Union.

And I want to ask you, this is a time when the traditional powers of the EU, France and Germany, are going through political difficulty at home. So Poland's role is even more important than usual.

And I want to ask what Poland's agenda will be in this six-month period where it has the EU presidency, and in particular, ask you about the question of tariffs. Trump seems convinced that he wants to raise tariffs on European manufactured goods, especially automobiles. So you, as a key European leader, how are you going to respond to that? Yeah, I mean, I'm...

I had several conversations with President Donald Trump about this topic and that was still in his previous tenure as President of the US.

And during those conversations, President Trump clarified to me the disparities or the disproportions which have accumulated over tens of years, I believe, between the United States and the European superpowers, especially in terms of economic superpowers. And the symbol of that is this automobile industry. That is the issue that President Trump has repeatedly touched upon.

upon and I believe he even mentioned it during his inaugural speech. And I can quote a conversation that I had with President Donald Trump when I visited him back in April in Trump Tower.

And he told me I called Angela Merkel. Of course, that was happening when he was the president of the United States. And he's saying I discussed with her exports, industry and also the possibilities of selling goods between the United States and Europe.

And she was telling different things, of course, clarifying stuff. And then President Trump says, well, I couldn't hand it. I couldn't stand it anymore. And I said, OK, so let's do it this way. Let us take half an hour.

Go out of your office, chancellor's office, and count all the American cars that are parked in front of your office. I will go out of the White House and I will count all the German cars which are parked there on the street. And then we will resume our conversation in half an hour and we will talk.

You understand, I believe. And this is a very clear way in which President Trump clarifies to people who are not very much knowledgeable about economics, like myself. I'm a lawyer. My background is law. I'm not an expert in economics. So this is the way that President Trump explains all those complicated things.

Everyone understands this simple addiction. Why is the American car industry so low represented in Europe, and the European car industry is so highly represented on the streets in the United States?

Because I believe everybody can understand this very simple dependency, this comparison. And that is why the American automobile industry is so underrepresented in Europe, whereas the other way around, this European automobile industry is so overrepresented in the streets in the United States.

So now let experts sit down and talk about it. What is the reason of this disproportion? Is it like unequal treatment or is there any other reason for that?

American car industry invests too little in Europe. Please build factories in Europe, produce Chrysler, please produce Lincoln, please produce Cadillacs here. We will be very happy to drive them, especially if they have a competitive price in relation to German cars.

Because I'm happy to say to President Donald Trump, well, Mr. President, the American automobile industry is not investing enough in Europe. Just build your factories here, build your plants and produce Chryslers, Lincolns, Cadillacs. We are happy to drive them, especially if the prices are competitive vis-à-vis those of German or French cars. So I think the negotiation just began. So...

One of our automobile makers, who's now the president's best friend, Elon Musk, tweeted the other day that his new slogan is MIGA, which means Make Europe Great Again. And when I read that, I thought, maybe there's something similar to this statement and what Mario Draghi said in his report about European economic competitiveness, that Europe is...

falling behind America and China. So what do you think about MIGA? I think it is fair to say for me, with very big respect, that you have scored the bull's eye with your comment.

We prepared Polish priorities for the presidency in the European Union one and a half years ago.

And I was involved in preparing those priorities together with the former Polish government headed by Prime Minister Morawiecki. And those priorities were officially approved. I presented them to President Joe Biden when he visited Poland back in 2024.

And the first priority was to forge a closer bond between Europe and the United States. And that was encapsulated in a very simple motto or slogan: "More Europe in the United States and more United States in Europe". That is "Make Europe great again".

So I think with that, we have a new shared slogan. I'm afraid we've come to the end of our time. I want to just thank President Duda for being with us, for being so frank, talking about really the most important issues that are ahead. Mr. President, thank you very much for coming. Thanks for listening. For more information on our upcoming programs, go to WashingtonPostLive.com.