Episode 290: Bringing Older Children into the CM Method
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Get encouragement to keep on when the going is tough, gain clarity where you lack understanding, and find hope to carry on. Welcome to Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I'm Emily Kaiser and I'm here with Nicole Williams and Liz Cottrell. You know, once in a while we dig out an old episode to either bring to your attention for the first time or refresh your memory.

One truth about Charlotte Mason's method is its relevance over time because of the focus on children as persons and not the novelty of the curriculum. One common occurrence is

families not just starting with one child in first grade but those with children of various ages who are moving to this method because they have just discovered its benefits or they're beginning homeschooling for the first time and bringing children out of traditional institutional settings or sometimes just starting a child who's joined the family at an older age.

For whatever reason, the concern is how to help a student adjust to a whole new way of doing school.

to change their learning habits or accept this new way of doing things. You see what I mean about children and their needs not being a new concern, but a challenge for the parent whenever their child faces new things. So let me encourage you to listen to an old episode with new ears for the sake of the child who's jumping into this method of doing lessons without experience with it from the very first.

And before we bring you that re-air, we just want to thank our season-long sponsor, Living Book Press, who has living books available for all ages. And they will appeal to your children, whether they are long in the Charlotte Mason Method or brand new.

Thanks for joining us today on A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I'm Emily Kaiser, and I'm here with Liz Kittrill and Nicole Williams. And today we're talking about a topic that we have had many, many, many questions from our listeners on. So we might be a little long-winded, and hopefully we can cover all of the aspects that y'all have asked us about in regards to bringing life

older children into a Charlotte Mason education for the first time. And this could be children who've been in public school or coming home for the first time. This could be children who have been homeschooled, but using a different method, or even people who have dabbled with Charlotte Mason, incorporated some of the things, but haven't really understood the fullness of her method and are trying to do that. So we'll hopefully be talking about things relevant for all of those positions.

And I think that this is a common question because when a parent of a junior high or high school student

looks at what Mason students would be doing in those years, they get a little freaked out because it is a lot. And it's a lot of what we think of as hard things because Mason's method is so seamless from the beginning. The child who starts at six years old in form one B and follows the program as she designed doesn't feel that strain because they are growing into it. Right.

But a child who has never narrated before is not used to visualizing and is not used to reading books and narrating instead of a textbook and workbooks. That's going to be a very different thing. So is it just too much? We should just maybe keep them doing what they were doing and just focus on using Mason with their younger children? Do you think there are any benefits to bringing a child in?

into the feast at a late date. There's definitely benefits to it. I think it's worthwhile. I always tease that I started my Charlotte Mason education in my 30s, late 30s. So, hey, they're getting a jump on me.

Well, I have had moms write me and they're going to start with their youngest children, but their other kids have already gotten on this other track. And so they're just going to let them ride out high school. Can we make a shout out to our listener, Tony? She stood out to me all year and she'll probably be very embarrassed by, but the brave woman has eight children from form one through form five.

And they had only ever done traditional workbook textbook thing until this year. And she decided, nope, they're all going to dive into Charlotte Mason fully. Brave woman. She is very brave. So we do know it. And Nicole, I think you have personal experience with this because you had your adopted siblings who were public schooled and then came home around middle, sixth grade, sixth grade. Most of them. What do you think? Can you tell us a little bit? Maybe.

maybe about your personal experience with how they were positively impacted. You know, I've talked a lot on the podcast about three of my siblings that started with me, two of them in sixth grade and one in seventh grade. And so then they were sixth, seventh and eighth. They were one year apart, all of them and homeschooled them all the way through high school. But I also had a niece and another sibling that I homeschooled only for one year, one of them her junior year and one of them her senior year. And one of them I did,

We actually used Google Docs and passed things back and forth and stuff. So I've really experienced not only were they in public school, but all of them had been in foster care. So they had been jumping from school to school in foster care. And then when they were adopted by my parents, they started in a public school locally. But this was a massive change for them.

Actually, I'm thinking this probably was a positive thing because if they were in a bunch of traditional schools and then they came home and did a completely different way of education, that was probably a boost for you. Right. It was. And it was kind of funny because I told my mom, well, you know, I don't have school in the traditional way. And she was like, I don't care.

Just help them. But I think one of the most important things that I want to point out to parents who are either thinking about this or dealing with children that they have brought home or have changed methods on them, that for the student who is, you know, middle school, high school, and you're changing the rules on them. I mean, you're just changing things up. That it can be very awkward. So there was a couple of points I wanted to point out.

And I buy a school, Mary and Barry says it's an eye opener for me to see what can be achieved with a group of young children with no preconceived ideas about school. But that's not what we're dealing with. Dealing with children who do have preconceived ideas about school, whether that is your workbook textbook approach at home or what they did in school. And I had one of my students who was getting A's in school.

And so when she came home and I was having her do narrations and not giving her grades, exactly. She was very upset. That was very unnerving to her because she couldn't figure out the scheme. She couldn't figure out how to excel. And she did wonderful over the years, but it was quite a paradigm shift for her.

So this might be the first time they're even asked to think for themselves. Up to now, it may be just figuring out how to take tests well and stuff. But we're not only asking to think for themselves. We're asking them to express those thoughts. And that is not something that is typically done in any other kind of a curriculum.

So that might be really uncomfortable for them because you might have a student who wants to get the right answer. And can I just interject? My second daughter came home in her senior year. And by that time, I was pretty engaged in a Charlotte Mason type of education. And

She loved it at first, and it really did salvage her high school education because she'd become very lethargic and ambivalent about school in general. And that was one of the reasons she came home. But she would have these moments of doubt throughout the year, like, am I doing enough? Mom, all I ever do is read. And yet, honestly, I think that was her most valuable year of school. Mm-hmm.

I think that's a good point, though, because...

They can question this method. And I think at these ages, they're old enough that we need to explain to them why we do things. Why do we read Plutarch? Why do we narrate? What is the advantage of doing dictation? Because even if you're bringing them home in high school, if they've never done dictation before, you might be stepping back to do some of those things that were from an earlier form. Exactly.

And I think some of it on our side, some of it, don't you think, is just that insecurity of having to think for themselves? Because for them, the security blanket has been I'll do the study questions and I'll be done with that. Right. And now we might even be asking them to do things like classical music that maybe isn't something that anybody in the family even listens to. Maybe this is new for everybody and they're going, oh,

Why are we doing this? Why are we looking at these art pieces that maybe some of them aren't, you know, as not every piece of art strikes us as beautiful when we first see it, especially when we're new to looking at art. Yeah.

folk songs, there might be things that just strike them weird. And the response usually is, well, that's dumb. That's like what teachers say. Why do I have to do this? Exactly. Why would I do this? So I think we need to give them a lot of grace to adjust to the method. But I think what you said about getting their will on our side and really probably encouraging

Sharing more about why and the philosophy and what it will do. And when a child knows narration is how you put short-term memory into long-term memory is how you really learn. Right. You know, that can be a powerful thing for them. Absolutely. Whereas most six-year-olds could care less about that. Can you share a little bit about your brother and how you saw, like...

Because he dropped out, right, when he was in senior year of high school. And you had homeschooled him for five years. Yeah.

It was really an interesting thing. He's, um, it's such a funny story to me, just maybe ironic. I don't know, but he actually did really well. We had to start so slow. Um, he was in seventh grade when I started homeschooling him. I had to sit at the table every day and do third grade math, fourth grade math. He's one that I'll sometimes say when we began narrating, I would read him one line and then a paragraph and a page just to

actually just get his attention. It wasn't that I thought he needed such small chunks. I just needed to get his attention. And it was hard to get it. So he never wanted to read a book. And Emily and Liz worked so hard to get him books he'd be really interested in. And I've told the story before. The first time he opened the book on the way home to begin reading it by himself was like...

a colossal moment in our homeschooling life. He's interested. He wanted to learn, but he did, he did quit school. He, um, he moved out of his home and kind of couch surfed. And it's, it's not a totally unprecedented thing for kids who've been in foster care for a long time to get right up to the point of graduation. And it's almost like a,

Like they're questioning who they are. And a lot of them do quit, unfortunately. But he went on to go to Job Corps where they did training for the GED and he took the GED. And one day I got a text from him where he said, I got the best grade ever.

anybody's ever gotten on the English portion or whatever portion it was. And I thank you so much for being my teacher and being there for me all those years. You always had faith in me. And I,

I was so floored. I was so honored and so proud of him. And I laughed because we were having one of our Charlotte Mason meetings that night. And it was a very special meeting for all of us because it was the day we were celebrating Emily's engagement. But that day I was thinking,

There are moms who are like, my child got into college or my child, you know, whatever, these great things. And I'm like, mine took the GED and he did great. I was so proud of him. So I don't know if that's encouraging to me, but you're not. It's encouraging to me. I'm sitting over here crying. It's beyond that, though, again, it's.

It's not about the achievements of the children. They're getting a taste for the beautiful and Charlotte Mason goes on and on, literally, about the poverty-stricken children who could enjoy Shakespeare. He definitely got things that he would never have gotten in a traditional setting at all. In all his life, he will recognize certain artists when he sees pictures. He will have interest in things that

The average high school dropout does not. Right. And he will have a an experience. I used to say this is one of the reasons why I think it's so important for us to do some of our work together, read alouds and stuff like that, because we had an experience together that was so bonding for all of us. And, you know, even now.

He's doing well now. He's kept a job. He has this look back on as a very positive experience. He was failing all of his subjects in school when he got taken out. The other kids were not.

And it's so funny because really, if I was engaged like intelligence, he probably was smarter than the other two girls that I homeschooled for five years. But he was getting all Fs where one of the other ones who, you know, struggled more was getting all A's. So it just shows how wonderful our system is. Exactly. Well, I love that story, Nicole, because I think it shows the beauty of the Charlotte Mason method that it isn't about achieving success.

a certain specific goal, but it is about helping each individual child develop their potential. Right. Absolutely. Whatever that is. And I just want to encourage moms who are bringing children home, maybe even only in fourth or fifth or sixth grade, that, um,

Yes, your child has not had the foundation of the early years to learn how to narrate, but you can begin now. We all begin wherever we're at. And so you may have to make a few adjustments from the norm that a Form 2 or Form 3 student would be making. But your child is still getting a valuable skill that they'll have for life. Everybody should learn how to narrate if they don't know how. Right. So I definitely think we need to...

Talk about some of those adjustments that we should be prepared to make for children. But maybe like a rule of thumb is to look at like the content that they would be doing. So if your child is in form two or three, Plutarch and Shakespeare can be on there. Right. But then as far as the skills, those language arts and probably even math to some degree, because if they have just been in a traditional setting where they learned by hand,

wrote practice, then they don't really understand the concepts. They're going to have to probably take a step back. So those skill areas, we're probably going to have to make adjustments. And even if they're doing a subject, like they're doing multiple streams of history, they didn't get all the early buildup to that. We're jumping them into form three. They are doing, you know, American and British and ancient history.

We could maybe adjust a book if their reading level is not up to par, maybe not something we would give a child who'd already been moving along. But we're still giving them the wide feast available at the age. But let's talk about those skill areas that we might need to make adjustments. Well, one thing is they're going to have to learn to narrate because that's the most basic thing. And so even though...

maybe most 10 or 11 or 12 year olds would be learning to do written narrations. I would recommend that you not do any written narrations until they're very comfortable with the oral narrations, just like other children. But instead of it taking three years to get to the place of doing a written narration,

you know, they may get there in six months to a year and they do catch up faster because they do have more maturity. Yeah. I would also just add to that, that,

you know, your child might be, I'm just going to say ninth grade say, and you're bringing them home and they're a good reader. But what we're asking them to do with that material, material, um, we've got to keep that in mind. So jumping them in where a child who's been homeschooled all along, um,

would start, would be at ninth grade might not be the right place because they've got to learn to narrate that material. Right. And they've got to learn to work with that. So we might need to move them back. Simpler. Not just their reading level. Right. And I think that it would be helpful if you're facing the situation of considering starting a Charlotte Mason education with an older child, older than six even, that you go back and listen to our episode 44 where we talk about

the general language acquisition pattern because that needs to happen

regardless of when you start. So like mom was saying, narration needs to be established. Oral narration needs to be established for several years. You need to begin visualizing copy work from smaller amounts and moving up before you enter into dictation. And really look at a lot of those because they do build on one another. And yeah, we're going to expect them to catch on sooner because they're older. They have more exposure to language. But they still need that. So if your child's 10, that

That does not mean they start Charlotte Mason and they start written narration and dictation because that's what you do at 10. Exactly. It also doesn't mean that you're going to go back and read them all the little tales about George Washington and stuff that you did. Right. And I think that we need that distinction between content and skill is... Yeah. Yeah. We want to set them up to be able to exceed. We don't want to give them things that are too easy for them. Right. But we need to...

you know, be constantly challenging them to grow from where they are. Even subjects like nature study, if it's the first time a child's done nature study, observation is not something that

may come natural to them. We may need to do object lessons like we would do with a form one first grade child with a middle schooler or a high schooler. I did it with my big kids. I always refer to them as the big kids. I did it with them when they were in middle school. We'd sit down, many of you heard my mushroom story and they were involved in that whole object lesson and

And here they were, you know, middle school age students. But it was new for them, right? They had not done it before. You're giving them a new skill. It doesn't matter if it's a skill that a child who is six can learn to do. If they don't have it, they need that first. Exactly.

And that, I mean, what the fullness of life. That's something they still will post on Facebook. Pictures of frogs they found in the parking lot or something like that. That is so encouraging to me. I mean, really? You changed their life. Yeah. They changed mine too. Isn't that the truth? Okay. So narration and those language art skills. What about a habit of reading or reading habits that are so vital to carrying out this method of education? What do we...

What should we expect? How should we make allowances? And how do we help them move on? I think that, you know, even if they're a good reader and they can read 15 pages in the next 20 minutes, that at least at the beginning of the year, while they're learning to narrate, we should probably shorten the amount of reading, at least between narrations within that time period. Does that make sense?

Right. You're saying. Because they have to learn how to deal with the material in this way. Right. And just because they can read the material, if they don't have the narration skills, they're going to need to handle smaller amounts because of their narration. I also found, I've mentioned it before too, that my big kids would rather write a narration than orally narrate. And so I had to make sure that every day they were being required to orally narrate some things. Yeah.

It is like narrating on the fly aloud is harder than sitting there with your pencil and kind of working through it. So it was a skill that I knew they needed to do, but I obviously gave them a lot of grace and patience with them. And probably people are going to say, well, why is it important? But I think that.

That is exactly what most of us have to do when we're in conversation with people that we don't want to just like blurt out the first thing that comes to mind, but we might need to learn how to judiciously think on our feet and be able to communicate that. So it's not just that they're learning the material, but it's a foundational public speaking and speaking, conversing skill. And I know we've kind of said this already, but

Just to give them the reasons, perfect execution. Our six and seven and eight year old learned this incidentally just because we showed them how as we went along to do a very good job. A child who comes to us from another school or university.

even from just a different method in our school, may have some really sloppy writing, for example. And so the advantage, though, with the older child is that they should be able to understand when you explain why it's important to do less and do it better.

Right. I think also we talk about each of these subjects and how we would, you know, need to build up to them and stuff. One of the things I see as vital to bringing an older student in is not bringing with them any of the extra stuff from the old way.

Yes, that's a great point. It has to be entirely Charlotte Mason, even if you can't do the whole entire thing right out the gate, because that would be kind of hard. There's a lot of learning that would have to be done. And for you as the teacher in order to do that. Exactly. Exactly. But you cannot bring things from the old way in.

And one of the main reasons for that is that that student will see those other things as being the education and all of these Charlotte Mason things that seem odd to them as being these extras at this thing. You're requiring them. That is like,

beyond regular school and that's very frustrating to them. And so you've really just got to make this entire paradigm shift for their sake. I think that is such a good point too, Nicole, because we hear, I mean, even from people who are considering this with like much younger child who are

Oh, well, okay, so I don't know how to do math in a Charlotte Mason way. I don't know how to do language arts. And so they'll keep their curriculum until they feel comfortable with how Charlotte Mason did. And we always tell people, no, just drop it. It's better for them to have three months off of doing math

You know, before you while you figure out this, everything else before you feel comfortable adding in dictation. So it goes without saying that the mom who's tackling this is probably going to have to do a little more homework herself about Charlotte Mason and understanding the method. Because now you're going to have a child that's probably going to be questioning more with moms who start out with a first grade.

they can learn the Charlotte Mason method as they go. Whereas you're the one that's really having to make the adjustment here because you're plunging in with where you should have had six years experience. So you're going to have to do probably a little more reading, a little more research.

A little more podcast listening. And I would add that I think that that is important that your goal be to do the full thing at some point. You know, yes, start with what you can manage, but only Charlotte Mason. But do try to keep adding my big kids because I was fairly new to Charlotte Mason when I started homeschooling them.

And each term, I'd be like, what are we adding now? We're always adding something new as I was learning about it. Okay, we're going to try to do this now and just kept adding to it. And that's actually kind of refreshing to them. It is. Teenagers like new things anyway. So in a way, you're keeping school from ever being dull because now we're

upping the ante every term with new things. And it also had this attitude of that we were all working together. I was learning things. I was bringing it into the curriculum. I had never listened to classical music before we all started listening to it. So I was very transparent with them. I don't get it either, you guys, but we're going to try this. I had to have a good attitude and be encouraging, but I didn't act like,

I didn't act false with them. You know, if it was something that I didn't really understand or maybe I didn't have a taste for, because then when I started to have a taste for it, or we would listen to a piece that I liked and I'd say, Oh, I like this one. They were watching my taste change and gave them more hope that their taste would change too. And, and they did, they really did. And that's a key thing. The whole attitude issue is,

That we need to have a very positive and enthusiastic attitude about it, even if our teenager is reluctant or resistant. And I know when moms ask about bringing an older child in, they don't necessarily mean teenagers. But our attitude is going to make all the difference to the way they adjust to the whole different way things go, whether they're 8 or 18. Right.

I think that we also need to speak openly with them and empathize that I do realize this is difficult. I do realize this is a big change. It's a big change for me, too, as your teacher to learn this. And, you know, to know. But I do think and again, specifically.

telling them like, these are the principles. This is the philosophy that I believe. I mean, obviously, if you have a third grader, probably you don't have to get very detailed here, but you might with an older child who's ready for that. But to really identify with them and say, I do know and I was educated before.

Not this way either. So it's a big change for me and we're going to go through it together. Mason did say that one of the teacher's greatest strengths was her sympathy toward the child, which doesn't always have to be spoken, but they can pick up on our sympathetic attitude. It is hard to do new things and we need to be really patient. It's going to require patience.

probably a little more grace than a normal situation where you've already been involved with a Charlotte Mason education or

Children often find new things frightening or frustrating. And so it's going to require just some encouragement and some sympathy that so our attitude will be conveyed to them. And if we are enjoying the experience and the adventure, so to speak, that they'll pick up on that. And really, young people are.

love heroes and they love being called to be courageous. And so we just need to tackle it in that kind of way that gives them that idea. And that's why, you know, you've talked in recent episodes about, you know, get up in the morning and get things ready for the school day, you know, and get things ready for dinner for night so that you can be outside drawing in your nature study journal with them. And, you know, you're,

beginning a nature study journal for the first time and they are too. And that's one of the things I said about my big kids is this experience. It was very bonding for all of us. And, um,

This way of educating, whether we're 40 or 50 or we're a teenager or below is very healing to those of us who have been part of a different kind of education. Because frankly, this is the only kind of education where the child is considered a person. And if they've been doing workbooks, they've been doing textbooks, their personhood has been squelched and being able to go out and do nature study and, and

and narrate what they think, be asked questions where they aren't just regurgitating facts. They're thinking in their, their thoughts are going to be heard by somebody. It's very healing to students who maybe need that. And that might even be us. So if we're participating, we're going to have a better attitude too. And be patient about their progress, you know, give them the time it's going to take. So,

So we've talked about the child's attitude and some of the content and the skills that we need, the material in the curriculum. But what about the whole short lessons and doing so many lessons in a day? I find that's one of the things children who are new to Charlotte Mason resist the most and yet...

within a very short time come to appreciate the most. They think, well, it might be torture, but it's not going to last long. Exactly. I remember when I was in college, I had a job as a preschool assistant and I thought, this is my most perfect job ever because we do everything in like 15 to 20 minute intervals and I'm never bored. And

And I do think that it may seem so odd to them or they might be frustrated because they weren't able to finish a whole math lesson in the time. But it will very quickly become such a good thing for them too, especially because likely they will have a lot of challenges and it will seem hard because it is so different. Even though it's a natural method that works with a child, because it's so different, they will probably have some resistance to that. But

Those short lessons will help get their minds and bodies breaks and they will be refreshed and it will help them. And she said that multiple lessons multiplies time, but it also lightens the burden. And so even though we all know what it's like to go to a new job and the strain you feel when you have your first day on a job.

So they're feeling some of that, but yet because the lessons are just in the morning and it's over and they have all that break in the afternoon, that will compensate. And it'll help them a lot through the changes that are happening. And most children are delighted to know that it's lunchtime and we're really done and I don't have to go till 3.30. Mm-hmm.

So let's talk a bit about what our expectations as the teacher should be for our child, quote unquote, catching up to the level that he should already be at.

I think a really important thing to remember is Charlotte Mason's first principle. Like you were just talking about a few minutes ago, Nicole, children are born persons and Mason's method is not some rigid system that is trying to fit a child to a particular mold, right? It is a method that is to give children the opportunity to flourish where they are with whatever their ability on their pace, right?

And I think then if we should have that attitude about every single child that enters our homeschool, regardless of whether they've begun with the method or are coming in later, I think that just takes our expectations and squelches them. We need to be focusing on what is our child capable of doing and are they making slow and steady progress from where they are.

If we have expectations that our child should be reading a certain level of book at a certain age,

We should never have those expectations regardless, right? It should be, well, what is this child? You know, because sometimes we have children who can read very difficult books much earlier because of their reading ability. And we always have to be looking at each individual child and gauging what is appropriate for that particular child. It's such a funny thing, but I can remember like specifically where I was when that idea hit me that every one of these children

At the time, I think I had all seven of the kids I was homeschooling.

could reach their potential, whatever that was. Yes. By homeschooling this way. And, and that is that children are born persons. That is, you know, God made these people. Takes a lot of pressure off as the teacher. It takes pressure off the student. Yeah. And it, it puts a lot of hope into every single day. Cause I think, I think we hear children are born persons and we have such a shadow of

Of a grasp of what that means. Exactly. Absolutely. I think that is so true. And when you start having, um, I think that maybe it's limiting if you have fewer children and, uh,

I don't know, just having that big number of children. I don't, I don't personally have that many children in my home, but having that many children I was homeschooling with this method really helped me to see that each of them had their own strengths and their own weaknesses. And we're going to, um, accomplish different goals and, um,

It just let me relax in the idea that I'm failing them. I'm failing. All right. They're not going to reach what they're supposed to, or they're going to reach something.

Through this way of homeschooling, the potential God has for them, what he means for them to do. Because it's not just a method of homeschooling, it's a method of life. Right. Right. So any exposure to the good life is good. Right. Even just for one year? Even for six months. I think the thing, too, to keep in mind is that when...

You think, well, what if I had somebody asked me recently, what if he's 25 and he's still learning his multiplication table? Well, what if I mean, what are you going to do about it? Yeah. You know, if you're doing slow and steady progress, you can't do anything. Exactly. You're not going to make him get any further than he's going to get. I think everyone with who's ever had a child.

Which is probably everyone listening to this podcast. Has had to face that reality sometime. You cannot make a child do something he cannot do. Exactly. Well, before we close here, we had a couple of questions from listeners about this particular topic we thought we'd answer here and maybe give you some practical application of these principles that we have been discussing up to this point.

We hope we don't lose you all on this very long episode. This is from Jenny. She said,

From what I understand, we should encourage our kids to be reading more of their books independently by this stage. But with all the new ways of educating, particularly narration, and different or higher caliber of literature we're delving into, when, what, and how is a good way to go about helping them read their school books independently?

Right now I'm reading everything except for one biography he's reading on his own. I think he could probably start reading history because the language isn't too difficult like some of the other books. What is the right balance of reading aloud and the child reading his school books alone? Well, I think we've answered this question a lot just in general on other podcasts, but I would say the mom...

needs to proceed cautiously, but it's not necessary that you read every single thing aloud to them. If your child is a strong reader, then let him read. But as we said earlier in this podcast, you might want to cut down the amount that he reads in any lesson to give him a chance to narrate because he's not used to holding that much information. And again, just because that's what a child normally would be doing in a Charlotte Mason education, if he's not up to that task, if he can't do it, you know, you're not going to push it. You're going to

help them develop and have them maybe like we talked about when we addressed this on episode 63.

We talked about helping a child transition. So maybe reading part of the lesson aloud and then having him read aloud to you and those kinds of things can help transition engage. But again, like everything else in the method, we need to start with what is within his grasp and then help him develop slowly from there. It's more than just being an easier read or a harder read. Right. As Mason's program went on,

There was more thought provoking ideas and it wasn't just harder because they didn't know the words. That is so true. When you're reading a living book, the vocabulary and the narrative style might be easier to read than some things might be easier to read than a textbook. But the ideas that they're encountering is a difference. Yeah.

We had another question from a listener about how to retrain some of their habits that may be less than perfect. She's found it very difficult, although she's used Charlotte Mason's methods for years. It was only actually reading her words. I see some of my feelings. So she's been using the method, but not really realizing the fullness of the method and having to kind of correct things that have developed into bad habits. Well, for perfect execution, um,

Don't be a perfectionist. Choose something to show them how to improve. And when they are improving that, move on to another thing and just be patient with, you know, you can't have a child change overnight all of their sloppy ways or whatever.

all of their carelessness. And so I would just choose one thing to focus on in each lesson and then require it after that. I think another thing we often hear habit training, and I know we're going to talk about this in our question and answer session about habits, but I know that it is commonly thought that habit training kind of exists in a vacuum. When Mason designed it,

to be a result of the method. So the more you learn about Mason's full method and the more you're able to implement that in your home, those habits will get worked on. The curriculum will shape your child. Exactly. So I think that will come more and more. And like I'm saying, you know, in copywork, we're working on perfect execution. And in all of the lessons, we're working on the habit of attention, you know,

But with regard to an older child and dealing with some of these things, we've got to keep in mind we need to be near. So we might think, oh, they're, you know, 11, 12. They can do their copy work by themselves. But maybe we need to be near to see that, oh, they're holding their pencil with their thumb stuck out. Or there's something that we could help them to make a change. But that's going to be a habit.

You know, if it's like I have one who just wants to stick her thumb out all the time and I have to sit by her and remind her repeatedly to try to rebuild that habit in her brain. So we may need to stick closer to these students who are older. I also just want to say that I think it's important for moms who are bringing older children into this education. We've talked about giving them the whole feast, but again,

Again, just like with a younger child, don't underestimate their ability to adjust, that they are intellectually capable of far more than you think. So don't think that you're turning their whole world upside down. It might be just the change they've been waiting to make. And we know that because we've heard from lots of girls that, you know, we won't see for a year and we see them again and we hear the progress and it's wonderful. Mm-hmm.

Well, as we wrap up this very lengthy discussion, thanks for sticking with us to the end. I want to leave you with one of our all-time favorite quotes of Mason that we constantly like to keep before ourselves to remind us why we're doing this. And it hopefully will encourage all of you who are in the trenches bringing an older child home and the extra care and work that that may take.

And I'm going to read the extended portion of this from school education. Mason says,

Life should be all living and not merely a tedious passing of time. Not all doing or all feeling or all thinking, the strain would be too great, but all living. That is to say, we should be in touch wherever we go, whatever we hear, whatever we see with some manner of vital interest. The question is not, how much does the youth know when he has finished his education?

But how much does he care? And about how many orders of things does he care? In fact, how large is the room in which he finds his feet set? And therefore, how full is the life he has before him?

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