IFH 786: Crafting Authentic Stories from Lady Gaga to Sci-Fi Futures with Kim Ray
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 786. Cinema should make you forget you're sitting in a theater. Roman Polanski.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

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If you want to order it, just head over to www.FilmBizBook.com. That's FilmBizBook.com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.

My guest is a writer, producer, and director. She has produced reality TV shows such as MTV's Made. She's been a producer on The X Factor. She's been a producer for Kendra on Top, which is currently on its sixth season on WE tv. And her current produced project stars a little-known singer named Lady Gaga. You may have heard of her.

And the documentary Gaga 5'2", which is on Netflix right now, which follows Gaga around as she prepares for her Super Bowl halftime show and just gives you a sneak peek of her life in general with guest Kim Ray.

You know, we actually met on Twitter and I usually meet a lot of people through Twitter because you produced the new Netflix special Gaga 5'2". And, you know, we got to talking and I looked up your IMDb and I'm actually familiar with a lot of your work, actually. With actually, funny enough, starting with West Bank Story. I actually remember seeing that years ago. And when I saw that was one of the things that you produced, I was like, wow, what a small world.

I co-wrote it. Yeah, I wrote it with Ari, the director. We were in grad school together at the time at USC, and we had kind of become besties. And

We started an organization at USC for the grad production students called the Entertainment Industry Network, because when we both got there, we started the same semester for the directing program at USC, the production program. And there was no, there wasn't a lot of interaction with the other programs, with the writing program or the producing program, or even with Hollywood. So we started this organization and kind of,

Mixed everybody up and got everybody going, you know, working together on different projects so that, you know, people from the producers, the Peter Stark producing program would get with the writers and they bring directors projects. And so it was really successful. And then when it came time for us to do our thesis films, I wrote mine and obviously was directing it. But I needed an assistant director. I really needed somebody to run the set. And I was like, you have to.

You have to see my ID. You have no choice. And he's like, well, help me write my thesis film. He's like, I got nothing. He's like, I just have an idea. It's called West Bank story. And maybe it's like a bank in the, in the Valley, you know, but it's, it's kind of still like, you know, West side story within Israeli, but within Israeli and a Palestinian. And, um,

we just kind of went from there and I was like, all right. And we just, you know, developed and developed. And then one day, and I've never been to Israel and his father, Ari's dad is Israeli. So he had been, and so I was like, well, explain it to me. Like, what is it like, you know, what is it, what do they have in common? You know, he's like, well, they really just have the

food in common. And for sure, not just, but that's one of the things they have in common is the food. And we started talking about it. And I just remembered like all of the McDonald's and Burger King wars when I was a kid and like Pepsi and Coke and all that stuff. I was like, well, what if it's competing falafel stands in the West Bank?

And he was like, well, that would never happen because there's checkpoints. You know, they're not like you can't, it's not like you just walk from one side to the other. You know, I said, well, what if it was at a checkpoint? Like,

He's like, no, that would never happen. I was like, well, okay, but let's take some creative license here. Maybe it could happen. And we just both, it was ended up being funny. And at one point we had like Fatima, you know, have a backpack on, like maybe she's a suicide by and obviously that wasn't funny. And that was, we cut that. But, you know, we were just going through ideas of what could be funny and how it could be a comedy musical. And I had actually been in a band in college where,

and written a lot of songs and a lot of poetry. And so when we finished the script, Ari was like, well, we have to find a composer. You know, we have to find somebody to write all the songs. And I was like, well, why don't we take a stab at it? He's like, I don't know anything about writing songs. I was like, well, I was in a band. Maybe I, you know, maybe I could do it. Writing music, have you ever written any songs or poetry?

No, no. Believe me, Kim, nobody wants to see me sing either. Okay. All right. Well, it's kind of embarrassing, right? When you write a song or a poem, and you can write it, that's not embarrassing. That's like you're putting your emotions down on paper. But as soon as you say it out loud or you sing it, it's kind of like...

there's a, there's a certain, it's, you're being very vulnerable, you know, to whoever's listening, you're, it's a very, you're in a very vulnerable moment because you're sharing with them something that you felt emotionally or, you know, that you put on paper and now it's coming out in this kind of, in this, this emotional way. And so I,

I took a stab at writing one of the songs. In fact, I wrote the love, the love song first, the lyrics, and I sent it to Ari. Like you might hate, this is going to be horrible. They just remember like waiting to hear back. Cause I emailed it over and we were really good friends. So it wasn't like I was embarrassed to him, but I still, it was just like, you know, I had written this emotional kind of love song. And, um,

it took him a while to get back to me, which was probably like five hours, you know, but still it felt like an eternity. And then he was like, okay, I gave it to my mom. And Ari is very much like he was in a fraternity and in, in some ways he's kind of like a dude and he was like, okay, well I gave it to my mom and my mom really liked it. She thought it was really good. Let's just try to write the songs. And this is after we had gone to so many composers and I kept telling him because all the composers we met with, they,

They were good composers, but I just didn't think they'd be good lyricists, but they would write the right songs. I felt as the writers, we really need to write them. And so, and so we did, and it was a really rewarding experience, um, making that and writing it. And, um, yeah,

Yeah. And and then, you know, seeing it come to fruition was it was a really great, really great experience. So, yeah, music has always been a big part of my life. So, you know, that is that film is kind of just an extension of that.

So when you were putting this all together and you finally were able to make it and everyone was able to view it, did they finally understand the idea behind the competing falafel stands?

Yeah, they did. They did. It was fun casting it too, because, you know, on the Israeli side, we had more freedom because we could cast, you know, people who were supposed to be Russian or, you know, like people from all over, you know, that go, who are Jewish, who go to Israel to live there, you know? So, yeah, it was, it was actually, it was a lot of fun making it and casting it and, you know,

Yeah. And and seeing it, having people see it. It was scary at first because, you know, you really hope that people aren't offended and that people get it and they understand that it's a peaceful, you know, it's a message of peace and hope and we're all alike. And why do we have to have these wars and why do we have to have so much hatred? And, you know.

And so, yeah, there was a little bit of fear at first, but then everybody kind of embraced it. And to this day, like anytime I meet a Palestinian, they've seen the movie. So a lot of Israelis, yeah, or an Israeli, they've seen the movie. So it was shown a lot over there and Ari went over there a lot with it. And yeah, it was a popular short film, especially in the Middle East, apparently.

And that's awesome, by the way, because I was actually going to ask you about the reception of like how they actually responded to it. Because, you know, nowadays, whenever somebody makes anything, I mean, like you just touched on, you know, you did fear for a little for even a split second. You know, how are people going to respond to this? Is there going to be some bad backlash? Is there even going to be any backlash? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Um...

That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, there's still not peace in the Middle East, you know what I mean? So, you know, maybe, maybe not. I think people are always looking for a positive message. I really believe that, you know, and I think...

Everybody kind of does. I mean, one of the first, you know, even like internet stuff, it's like, you know, you want to keep your message inspirational. What people say about when you're trying to market yourself or whatever. I think people who have a positive message are kind of beacons in the world we're in right now because we are so divided and there's so much...

You know, anger and frustration and, you know, starting with, you know, our president. It's I don't know. I think it would be I think it'd be received just as well today, actually.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because it's Halloween. We're recording this on Halloween. And I said to somebody today, they said, oh, Dave, I didn't dress up. And I said, well, you can be a millennial and just be offended at everything. But, you know, it was it was a funny joke, you know, because I mean, I'm a millennial, too. It's just it's just, you know, it was just funny, though. And but but, you know, I just.

When you look out in the country today, and it's amazing, Kim, how fast everything has sort of changed, not only in film, but in the world. Cell phones are so fast. And where I'm going with this is everyone sort of knows news as it happens. As soon as something happens, you get a notification on Twitter or what have you.

And it's, you know, we become almost inundated with this. And, you know, and that's why I think sometimes people get a little more sensitive about things because it seems like that's all that's happening if that's all you're looking for. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do. I actually, you know, I was a huge fan of Hillary Clinton. I followed her since I was in college and, you know, read all of her speeches and really, you know,

you know, I'm the type of person I go down the rabbit hole. You know, I do all the research. I, you know, I really want to know who she was years ago and really followed the campaign really closely. And a friend of mine is a PhD in, um, what is he's getting his PhD at UCLA for, uh, I want to say it's called information systems, but I can be completely maligning that basically he studies the internet and any

and he's also, um, a journalist in, in Denmark. He lives here in Los Angeles though. And, um, you know, so I was really aware from him, um, and also from a project that I did with Chris McCarville, uh, who's the director of the Gaga film. He and I, uh,

we did kind of like a pilot for a show that was about internet culture and just various things about the internet. And the pilot that we did was about Russian trolls and Russian troll farms and what, in particular, they had tried to start this emergency situation in a small town in Louisiana. And so we kind of followed that story.

And then throughout the election, my friend was, you know, alerting me to all the Russian ads that were, you know, how Russians were meddling in the election, especially in Wisconsin and Michigan and what was happening there. And so I got really addicted to the news. You know, I mean, if I hadn't already been, I was really addicted to the news and just hyper inflamed by everything I read, you know, especially politics.

you know, if it was coming from, you know, the Trump camp or whatever. And, but once, once, once the election happened, I really, I just kind of stopped. And because what happened was this thing that had never happened before. And there have been studies done on this and things written about it. You can look it up. I started, I have, you know, I have a,

I have the Apple aggregator for news on my phone, like everybody with an iPhone or whatever program they use that aggregates the news from all my favorite sources. So, you know, I do New York Times, Wired Magazine, CNN, you know, you name it. And all of a sudden the word Trump.

showing up like every single article. Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. And I had never, you know, we're all addicted to the news, but I had never seen one name cover all of my news feed before. And

And again, it was a phenomenon, right? Like, again, this is something that's been studied. He did the amount of news coverage that he's gotten since pretty much right before the election and post the election goes beyond the pale. I mean, it, it, it,

It supersedes any other figure who's ever been covered by the news, and it's been sustained. Obviously, in part because of the egregious things that he's said, done, the lies that he's told, blah, blah, blah, blah, on and on. It's all newsworthy.

I just kind of, you know, wrapped my head around that was like, I'm kind of peace outing the news as much as I can. And cause I was so angry. I was angry on my social media feeds. I was angry. And I just, something just snapped at me and I was just like, it's,

The world isn't going to change if I... Whether or not I read every single news article. You know what I mean? Like, it's not... I'm, you know... I grew up in an era of newspapers where you read the newspaper. Pretty much when I lived in New York, especially, I'd just read it on Sunday. I'd get the New York Times on Sunday and that was it. So it wasn't so hard for me to kind of turn it off. Or not... I don't think I needed it, but I think I definitely turned it down, way down. Because it's just not...

Life is too short. That's my long response to that. I agree. You know, it's I stopped, you know, Facebook to me was was like was my version of your Apple aggregator on your iPhone. I would log on to Facebook and I made a very stupid mistake. Kim, I would log on Facebook first thing in the morning when I woke up.

Oh, yeah, me too. No, same, same. Because you're laying in bed, right? And you're waking up. And the first thing you do is you go to your phone. Yeah, no, I'm with you. Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm with you. And all it was was bad news on top of bad news on top of more terrible news. And I go, why am I subjecting myself to this? Like, you know...

First off, what could I do about North Korea? What can I do about this or that or the other thing? And I started to realize the less I was on Facebook, the better. And Twitter, I can control a lot more. And Facebook, it's just like, it was so finally, I just stopped it altogether. And you know what, Kim? Gradually, I got happier again. I stopped having to worry about this stuff. Because at the end of the day, you're just going to say if it happens, it happens. And there's nothing that

that we could do about it. So you stop really worrying about it. I mean, I have a friend of mine who goes on Facebook and

He used to do a lot of movie stuff and all of a sudden he just he's like obsessed now with like going on Facebook and like seeing all this news and posting all this. And he's guilty to a posting fake news. And I'm like, you know, what is that going to do for you at the end of the day? You posted a news article that is most likely not true. What is that going to do for you? You know, it's just I don't see what the point of that is.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's one thing to be intelligently informed and to check different sources. If something interests you or disturbs you, it's just another thing to, like you say, you know, be pouring through Facebook every morning and then pouring through the news and spending an hour going through all this stuff for several hours a day. It's just, it's too much on the flip side.

I have to say the good thing about the internet and this dissemination of information has been, you know, all of the sexual harassment stories coming out over the last like year, especially, you know, the most recent Weinstein story, because, um,

These women had no place to go before. They couldn't go to human resources. They couldn't go to their boss. They couldn't go anywhere. And now they can go to the internet. And even if it's just like, Hey, this happened to me.

And then another person's like, hey, this happened to me too. Even if it's just two people, it's powerful. But when it becomes 30, 40, 50, 60 people, women, who are like, hey, this happened to me. And then you start seeing how all the stories are eerily similar. That's when I think that's when social media and the dissemination of data become important. In an entertainment industry, it's also important

I came out of USC in 2005 and I had an agent at UTA, an agent, a manager, and a lawyer. And I was doing really well in the beginning of my career. But, and I write big budget sci-fi action primarily. That's what I write. And that's what I'm interested in. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

and I had all these various projects, you know, semi-development or almost sold or whatever, but I just, I wasn't feeling the deal. And it was really frustrating because I would walk in, you know, to these producers' offices and,

And I just, and they were all men. I never, I think once or twice I ever met with a woman, but you know, all these executives and producers and it was never, I was never like feeling the deal. And I really, you know, I like to think of myself as good in a room. I like to think of myself as personable. I like to think of myself as a good writer, as a good, you know, filmmaker in general. But yeah,

I just, I, it wasn't happening and I got, you know, I was getting really down on it and that's kind of actually, you know, the film industry obviously was changing, right? This is before Netflix was doing their own content and studios were only putting out like eight movies a year. Like the film industry was, was changing. That's undeniable. But a few years ago,

Data started coming out and statistics started coming out for those years in terms of how many women writers were getting hired to write feature films. How many women writers were selling spec scripts? How many women writers were getting hired for writing rooms? How many scripts were selling that had female protagonists? And the numbers didn't lie. The numbers didn't.

Excuse me. The numbers reflected my personal experience, which was that the doors... The door to entry was shut. And very few women were getting through. And it actually...

In some ways, it was profoundly depressing. But in other ways, it was profoundly encouraging because I stopped blaming myself. You know, I stopped thinking, oh, it's just because you weren't talented enough or you weren't...

you know, enough of a salesperson to sell your idea or, you know, you couldn't communicate, you know, what your pitch was or your concept or this or that. It was, it was because there was a bias, whether it was conscious, unconscious, whatever it was, there was a bias against women and there still is. You know, I think the stories of the Harvey Weinstein, whatever, whatever, that's the most,

horrific example, right? But then you look at all the microaggressions and the microaggressions exist in the data that show how many female directors... And I was just going up for a lot of writing stuff. Forget directing. My degree from USC, my MFA is in directing. My undergrad from University of Michigan is in film. And I still... I didn't even...

I wasn't even trying that hard to direct. I mean, I actually ended up getting a job. I was working as a commercial director for a production company, advertising company for three years, which was great. Um, while going out and trying to sell, you know, bigger projects, but, um,

It's, you know, I think, you know, there's I guess my point is there's good and bad in in the dissemination of news and social media and all that stuff. And it's like, you know, it keeps us aware, but it can also be, like you say, debilitating. So it has it definitely has an upside and then it also has a downside. You know, like I'm looking at all the hashtag me too.

over the last few weeks has been completely depressing, but also 100%, you know, it needed to be seen. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and I do know what you mean, Kim. You know, I think also, you're right, that is a good, you know, a benefit of social media is that you can not only share this news out, like, again, Harvey Weinstein, how that whole thing broke, and basically...

Right. Right.

A mudbound, excuse me. And he actually – our whole episode, we talked a lot about this, about he looked at all the numbers of film projects and directed and written by women, and the number was like 7%, I think he said. And he actually – actually, that's like his whole thing now is making more opportunities for women because –

He wants to actually improve those numbers. And that's all. So, by the way, if you're interested, I'm just going to sorry, not to segue, but I was just going to say that the whole episode that actually just aired right now on Halloween. And that's all it is, is it's all we talk a lot about that. He actually launched he actually helped launch the Horizon Award, which sends to film to filmmakers, to women filmmakers, to Sundance.

I mean, it's just, you know, the, the, this guy really, yeah. I mean, seriously, man, good for him because you know what, at the end of the day, it's like all these women are out there trying to like, you know, trying to say, Oh, we were going to hire more women, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, manner is still in charge. So they're the ones who have to do what he's doing, you know? Yeah.

Not that they're 100% still in charge. It's changing. But if you're going to really change a power dynamic, obviously those in power have to, you know, put forth some kind of effort. And people, you know, I think people rarely want to do that, right? You really want to give away the keys to the kingdom. But good on him that he's like, you know, doing that. That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah. Great guy, by the way. And I will. By the way, I'll give you guys a Twitter intro. I think you're really like, no, serious. Twitter is, I'm telling you, Kim, Twitter is one of the best networking tools around and it's free. You know, I mean, look, we met over Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a really good point.

So, you know, just to continue with your with your career, Kim, I see you did The X Factor, by the way, which I know you music has always been a huge part of your life. So I see you did The X Factor in 2012. And I wanted to ask, you know, how did you get into producing The X Factor?

Um, I had worked with one of the showrunners for the X Factor on another project and she got on X Factor and she's like, we need, we need people like you who can, who can write, you know, who can do story because initially they were going to, they were trying to kind of revamp the show a little bit so that,

The packages on the people who were competing and who were auditioning would be a little more beefed up. Because honestly, in so many ways, that's the heart of the show, right? Are these people who have this dream of being a musician and they're just... And you see...

you look into their lives and you see like how hard they've been trying to do this and for how long. And a lot of them, you know, started as children and have, you know, gone to Nashville or LA or, you know, New York and, you know, really sung their little hearts out, you know, really tried to be musicians. So being on the show was such a huge deal for them. So they brought me on to, um,

to put together the packages on, on those people primarily. I mean, I did other things, but, um, with the talent and with Britney Spears and whatever, but, um, that was my main thing. And yeah, it was, it was really heartwarming actually. And the show is, the show was a machine. I mean, it was, um,

I don't even know how many editors were working on that show. I want to say like 20. It was a big show. It was a really big show. So yeah, it was an interesting experience.

Yeah, I was going to say there must be like a million people working on that show. It came out like a bullet too because all of a sudden it was like every time I turned around, I saw something about the X Factor. I saw a commercial for it, a billboard for it. I saw ads on Facebook. I mean that show had so much going behind it just in marketing. You know what I mean? That's why I'm always like shows like that. It's an indicator too because something has that much money in it.

has to be what the network wanted. You know what I mean? It has to be something that they feel is a viable product. So is producing for live TV like that, because I know you also, after that, you've done a couple other TV series like Kendra on Top and Good Food America. So when you're producing live TV, was that any adjustment for you of any kind? Because it's

There really is no take backs or edits, so to speak. Yeah. I mean, for the live portion of Ag Factor, so there was a live portion and there was all the stuff that we did beforehand. And so, but the live portion, there's like a 30 second or minute delay. So everybody, you know, everybody, again, being a fine, you know, finely honed machine, everybody has all of their, um,

kind of all of their roles that they play. And the show wasn't always live because sometimes I'm trying to think, yeah, it wasn't all, oh, I'm thinking of the auditions. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Okay. Cause I'm just trying to think, cause we had to cut together at one point, we literally cut together, um, for the audition part, which was, you know, the kind of like the not live part, um, reaction shots for Britney Spears and Simon and, um,

I'm blanking on her name. Paula? That we would reuse over and over again. Because we didn't have enough reactions that were good, you know? So we'd end up reusing their reactions, which was really funny. But for the live shows, yeah, there was a slight delay. It was at CBS Studios, and it was very...

you know, it was very choreographed. Like everybody knew, you know, exactly what, what they were doing. And, you know, there were, there were honestly, there were some surprises, but kind of very few surprises. So,

So, so basically when you, when you go through like, yeah, uh, working inside of, um, uh, the X factor when you got out, when you, I'm sorry, make it seem like you were in jail. I'm sorry. Let me, let me rephrase that question. When you got in jail, no, really? No, I mean, you know, like I said, reality and dog TV was never my focus. It just, it just kind of happened. Um, because it was, I was having a really hard time getting, getting into scripted, getting, getting directing. Um,

you know, getting directing work and getting hired as a writer. So it was, and it came really easy, you know, it was, you know, it was just, it was just very easy for me to do. It was like riding a bike. It was not difficult.

But go ahead. What was your question?

when you were producing on, these are all episodics. Did you sort of see Kim, like how things were sort of progressing in terms of, you know, all the top talented people were moving, you know, out of, out of the film industry. And now they, as they say, all the, all the top talented people are working in the TV industry.

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I know people. I have a friend who went to Princeton undergrad and went to USC grad for screenwriting and is now one of the executive producers on Vanderpump Rules. You know, but he's one of the reasons, I have no doubt, that the show is successful because he's a brilliant, talented person, you know, and that...

even though these shows are not, you know, house of cards, um, there's still, they require storytelling and they require a lot of, um, you know, filmic kind of films, you know, a lot of skills. Um, and, and, and that really did happen, um, in like around 2000, just say like, um,

you know, once the recession hit in like 2008, 2009, film opportunities really started drying up. And my manager sat me down. He's like, you have to write television now. So I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I just finished film school. Like, why do I don't want to write television. And, you know, at the time, like, I mean, Sopranos, I think it just ended. The wire had been on, but there wasn't a lot of, you know, great,

There wasn't a ton of... Everything had to be, at that point, standalone. People didn't want The Sopranos per se, or they didn't want The Wire. They didn't want something that told a story over a season. And like anything else, TV was hard to get into. There wasn't as much of it as there is now, blah, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, reality came in and everybody just kind of...

went that way because it was easier to get jobs on reality. And if you knew how to write a script or had any kind of production experience, it was easy. So yeah, a lot of talent went to reality and doc stuff. And Kendra on top was actually really funny because

I hate Hugh Hefner. Hate. And I don't... I'm a feminist who believes putting women in bunny ears and little outfits and making them look really fuckable was not an advancement for women. But I got a call...

story produced on the show called Kendra on top. And I had no idea who Kendra Wilkinson was. I had never watched the girls next door. Obviously I hate Hugh Hefner. So, you know, I was like, I don't really think I'm a good fit for that. And the person was like, no, really, you should go in and just, just check it out. You know, she's actually, you know, her story, it's a light show. It's kind of a comedy and, you know, she's, she's,

She's married, has a kid, and it's not that kind of show. She's kind of a tough chick. I was like, okay. I went in and got the job and had never really story produced per se. Do you know what story producing is? Yeah. Basically, you're taking the footage that was shot

And cutting it into what is essentially kind of like the rough cut that's then going to be given to the editor. So I did that. It was the first, I was given the first episode of the first season of the show.

It was a new show that she was doing for WeTV. Previously, she had been on ETV. So the network was really, you know, kind of putting it through its paces as they do when it's, you know, a pilot, when it's, you know, it's the first show of the season. And I got kind of close with...

the very eccentric executive producer of the show. And by close, I just mean he would scream at me a little less than he screams at me because he was a screamer. And we got along. I was able to get along with him for whatever reason. And

But the guy who was my boss, supervising story producer who works, that position works really closely with the field in crafting the stories and making sure that, you know, the stories are, you know, that everything that's in the story is shot and that, you know, episodes track from episode to episode and across the entire season or character arcs or story arcs, all that stuff. That guy within like two or three weeks, really great guy named Kevin,

I'm still friends with, couldn't take the environment at that production company anymore and quit. Just walked like just no notice. It's just like, I can't do this anymore. And so they tapped me for whatever reason. Again, I had never even story produced. And they were like, well, you be the supervising story producer on the show.

And I was like, sure, yeah, of course. And I called Kevin. I'm like, okay, what am I supposed to do as a supervising story producer? And he basically told me. I was like, okay, all right. And it was easy and it was fun. I don't watch reality TV. The only episodes of Kendra on Top I've ever seen are the ones that we made. But it was fun to make it. It was kind of fun television to make it. And I ended up doing it for two seasons because...

I was at the time writing this kind of in-depth, intense sci-fi script, feature script. And it was great. It was a great job to have while I was writing. So that was Kendra on top.

So Kim, I have to ask, when you touched on somebody who was a real big screamer, how do you handle situations like that? Everyone has sort of a different idea of how to handle that, where somebody who maybe is your boss or maybe someone who is your co-worker, they're just very hard to handle on a film set. How were you able to handle it so well? I just...

it was a combination of just waiting it out and, or getting up and leaving. And at one point I did in that first season, I just got up and left and I was just like, I'm done. And his kind of second,

guy in charge or whatever, um, like called me repeatedly on the way home. Please don't quit. Please don't quit. He's so sorry. Please don't leave. And I was just like, I can't, I just, I can't, you know, that's, it's completely inappropriate, the yelling. And I don't remember if he had said something personal or I don't remember what it was, but, um, and then the guy himself called and apologized and, um,

I was like, okay, whatever. I guess I'll go back. And then, of course, all cereal, whatever, whatever. He was nice after that. I think the entertainment business is a tough business. And I think any business, whether... There was a good McSweeney's thing recently saying if women... Are you familiar with McSweeney's? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So everything's all tongue in cheek. And it was like, kind of, you know, if women can't handle the entertainment business, they should get out, you know, it's kind of funny. If they can't handle, you know, having meetings in a hotel room, you know, you know, instead of, you know, at a table, then, you know, they're too sensitive and they should get out. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

And then it was like, you know, maybe they should go into television, you know, like Bill O'Reilly. And, you know, maybe if they can't handle television, maybe they should go into tech, you know, and then it goes into tech where the guy next to you is like, you know, writing an essay on why women are inferior and, you know, women are getting hit on when they're pitching their app ideas. And if you don't want to do tech, you should go to politics, you know, where the president of the United States is, you know, saying grab them by their pussy. So it was just, it was really hilarious. And it kind of,

It kind of detailed, like I think women have it obviously in every industry. And there's, I don't know, maybe there's more of a put up with it-ness that women have. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, typically if somebody, this particular person I felt was, you

at the end of the day, harmless, um, and just kind of crazy. And it, it, it wasn't, uh, it, I was never sexually harassed or anything like that. It wasn't that kind of thing at all. I think if I'd ever felt, I actually, I did work at Miramax, um, back in the day when I first started and, uh, uh,

did walk away with a check because the environment was a sexist environment. And at the time I just, I went into the guy was working, uh,

For who it's funny. This guy has now come out and said oh, it's so crazy that Harvey Weinstein was acting this way I walked his office and you know, it's obvious. I'm not the kind of assistant that you want. Maybe you should just You know write me a check and I'll leave and he handed me a check request I walked it down to accounts payable and I left that company. It was a horrible company and everybody knew it so yeah

No, I think it depends on the situation. I think there are certain types of situations I would never stand for. You know, I would never stand to be sexually harassed in an environment. But screamers and emotional people who are creative, who lose their shit from time to time, that kind of just comes with the territory with creative people. They're not always the most professional business type people.

that you're ever going to deal with. Same with talent. I don't know. Creative types are just more emotional. There's a part of it that you just kind of got to accept that and roll with it. Yeah, I concur. The worst person I've ever had to work with was a director of cinematography who...

Well, it's actually tossed up. It's the worst person I've ever worked with. But mine was a director of cinematography who thought that he was God's gift to everybody. Oh, yeah. That guy. Yeah, that guy. You work with him, too. All right. No, no. We all know that guy.

Yeah, exactly right. Everyone's got a story about that guy. But what happened was he actually was condescending to everybody. So finally, I called him over and he and I started – I said to him, is there something wrong? Did somebody say something to you? Is there something that happened? Let's just talk this out. Yeah.

Mm hmm.

And I said, this guy is never coming back. We've got to make a decision. I went to the producers, and I said, you have to make a decision. Either he goes or I go. Like, this is absolutely terrible. And they chose me, and they were like, yeah, we don't like him either because apparently he mouthed off to them too. And I'm like, oh, good. We all hate him. We're in agreement. It's all right. Yeah, let's get him out of here. Yeah, so it didn't come to fisticuffs. You didn't have to like –

You didn't have to fight him. No, I didn't have to fight him, thank God. Because we were in a public place, too, so it wouldn't have gone well for anybody. It wasn't like on a closed set. It was like we were in the middle of the open in a public place. And we had permission to shoot and everything like that. It's just that two guys fighting in the middle of Philadelphia doesn't really bode well. But...

Right, right. Yeah, no, that's the other thing, right, is that in addition to emotions and feelings, you have egos, right? You know, some people, their egos get out of whack. And whether it's because they have a ton of self-doubt, you know, buried underneath, or because...

They think they're too good for the situation or the film or the project or, you know, whatever, which again, if they think that it's probably just all boils down to self doubt, but yeah, it's, it's, this is tough. It's a tough business. And a lot of times, you know, especially, um,

You know, in film and TV, I don't need to tell you, you know, people are calling in favors or there's, I don't know, there's, there's always a million different things going on with every single person that's on set. And, um,

you've either become like a family in a few weeks, a happy family, or you become a really dysfunctional, angry family, you know, depending on the crew. Usually. Yeah. Usually for me, it's the latter way. We come up with this functional family. Yeah. You love to hate them and hate to love them. So. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But boy, do you miss them when you see him on Facebook? You're like, Oh my God, look what he just posted. I love that guy. You know? Yeah. Two years later. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, right? Because it ends up being a small world. And, you know, as you sort of go from project to project and you sort of meet all these familiar faces. But, you know, Kim, I wanted to ask, and this is the, you know, we actually met because I saw, you know, this project being tweeted out. And I wanted to ask how you got involved with Gaga 5'2". Lady Gaga, obviously, I'm not even going to, I mean, should...

I think everyone listening knows who she is, unless you've been under a rock for the past 10 years. Yeah, I think everybody knows who Lady Gaga is. So I wanted to ask Kim, you know, how did you get involved with the project?

So Chris McCarville, the director, and I had worked together on Sex On. So we met on the HBO show Sex On, which is a show about how sex and relationships exist online and with technology. So it was all about sex, relationships, love, and technology. And he and I are both super into music and technology and the internet and sci-fi and

we were kind of a love fest when we first met. And, um, so after sex on, we, we did the, that pilot that I was telling you about, but the Russian trolls and, you know, that had to do with the internet of things kind of. And then we did another project, um, that was also kind of like a development project. And then he, um,

He had a meeting with Five Nation and they said that they might have this Lady Gaga documentary that there was potential for him to direct it. And he got really excited because he thought this might happen. And I was like, okay, well, you know, he's like, I really want you to produce it. I'm like, all right, great. Well, let me know if it happens because it just didn't seem, it just seemed like kind of a long shot, you know?

And so then I think it was almost like a month later, a month went by and he went, he met with Gaga's producer, Bobby Campbell, and he and Bobby really hit it off.

And he called me and he's like, I met with her manager. I really liked him. He's super cool. I think it's really going to happen. And I was like, okay, great. He's like, okay, great. Because, you know, I mean, there's always something, right? Like there's always two or three or four projects that are maybe going to happen or could happen or, you know, and then they'll all go away and then something else will come up. But you just never know. And I wasn't, so I wasn't really super excited.

about. I just didn't... I thought it sounded cool and, you know, obviously I would have been thrilled, but I just didn't know. And then...

And then another few weeks went by, I feel like. And he called me and he's like, okay, I got a call to go and film her at her house tomorrow. I'm like, no way. And he's like, yeah. He's like, it's happening. It's happening. And I was like, okay. So we got him. He had a camera and I think we just used a lens that he already had because I don't

I don't think we even had a plan in place yet. We ended up shooting on Canon C300s using Zeiss super speed lenses, fixed lenses, which was an immense challenge and in some ways stupid of us, but also brilliant because it allowed us to, you always had to be close to her to film her within like a few feet. And I think you feel that in the film, which is what we wanted.

We really wanted it to feel like a, cause he, cause so he goes and shoots this one day and he comes back and we sit down, we watch all the footage and we're going to cut together this little kind of teaser to give to Live Nation. And we're watching it and it's like, he really got a sense and you really get a sense of the footage he shot the first day, a lot of which ended up in the film of what,

of what it was going to be like filming her, that it was going to be this really rare, close up view of her. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And then it was going to be like this door would open and we'd go in or just, he would go in or whatever and then film. And then the door shuts, you know,

You know, and then so we knew that and that kind of contributed to the lenses and the camera that we chose and the way we chose to film it. We couldn't have a big crew. You know, you're not going to go into her house or get on her plane or go into her studio when she's recording with five people. She's never going to happen. So we needed to do something that was compact that would allow for.

you know, just a DP, a very discreet sound person who knew how to, you know, who could get out of the way, um, and often not Mike her. And, um, and then a camera set up that, you know, Chris could use if he needed to. Um, I shot for a minute in one of the locations. I think I shot the last step of the film where she's talking about, um,

um, sharts where she says shart in the credits. Like I was shooting that in Nashville. Um, and,

But yeah, so he did that. We put together a thing for Live Nation and they were like, you know, and then the next call I got was Chris on the phone with one of the VPs at Five Nations saying, okay, we need a budget and a schedule. And this is like, oh, okay, I guess this is happening. I guess we're making this movie. So literally, we just immediately were in production.

It was happening right then. It was going. And we knew we were going to get a call soon to shoot again. And we sat down with her manager. We sat down with Bobby. And he kind of gave me a rundown of all of the things that she had coming up over the summer. This was like in June of last year, of 2016. Yeah.

And he just kind of gave us, you know, this rundown, like these are all the things she has coming up. Let us know which ones would be interesting for you guys to film. What, you know, whatever you think, these are the things that we think would be good. These are the days she's filming in Malibu. These are the days she's filming in New York or not filming. I'm sorry. These are the days she's making the record. This is the day she's recording in New York. These are the days she's recording in LA. And, you know, if you want to do those, yeah.

Let us know. Let you know who's coming in because Florence Welsh came in. And there were days that obviously Mark Ronson was going to be there and Blood Pop and other people that she was collaborating with that we wanted to make sure we got. And so, yeah, we literally just...

it's like the door opened and we were in and we were making the film and, um, we started, we didn't know, we didn't know that she was up for the Superbowl. Like we didn't even know that. And I think within two months, um, we knew that she was up for it. And there's a scene, I think after she does the DNC performance, um,

Um, she's in the car. I think this is still a movie. No, I can't remember right now, but, um, but Bobby says to her, uh, you know, I think we got it. Or, you know, or I think we're going to get, or she, he says, it looks like we might get it. And she's like, I think we're going to get it. And it was kind of news to us that she was even up for it. Once we knew she was up for it, we were just like, she's going to get it. Of course she's going to get it. And, um,

we wanted her to get it because we were like, this is the end of the movie. You know, we're watching, cause we just felt it immediately. It was like, this is the end of the movie because she hadn't made an album in three years. She was making a new album. It was a huge departure from a lot of her dance music that, you know, she had done prior. And, um,

She was also, you know, she was doing this whole new look where she was wearing jeans and t-shirts and instead of these crazy costumes and, you know, these beautiful costumes, I should say, and masks and whatever else, it was very stripped down and it was completely new. So, yeah.

to see her do that through the course of the film and then to be able to, to, you know, and also to kind of see her in this really stripped down, raw, real way that we were seeing her. And then to have the end of it, because, and there were no, you know, she wasn't on tour. We, we filmed her a million times, you know, doing shows or performances, but they were all, they were all pretty small. She did a dive bar tour. She did the DNC. She did Tony Bennett's 90th birthday. Um,

she did PR stuff. She performed in Tokyo, but nothing like, you know, one of her concerts or, you know, or in a stadium or like the Superbowl. So it, you know, it was just such a,

it was just such a no brainer. We knew she was up for it to go. This is the end. And we can see so that we, we see this person, this, you know, and I'm five, nine. So to me, this is like so small. We were in the edit. I was like explaining to the editor who hadn't met her yet, but of course had spent thousands of hours with her, you know, in his mind, you know, in reality, you know, watching her on, on screen. And I was like, it's so amazing because she's like this,

this little person. I mean, again, to me, cause I've always felt as a woman, I've always felt big cause I'm, I'm almost five, nine. And, um, and then I just, I kind of started saying Iggy Pops, you know, I'm five foot, what did he say? I'm five foot one. And, and that ended up being a possible title. Chris was like, Oh, maybe that's a title. Cause we were, we had, we had a million titles and we could not naming anything is the worst. So, um,

that ended up going on the, on the title list. And, um, but yeah, so it was, it was a real windfall for her to do the Superbowl. Cause then we could see this stripped down small person do this thing that was larger than life and see how she did it. You know, for us, anybody can go on YouTube and watch her Superbowl performance from beginning to end. What we wanted to see was,

was the viewpoint of what it's like backstage, what it's like when she's, you know, rehearsing in her sweatpants, you know, when her hip hurts in the, in that back room. And that back room really was where everybody hung out and stayed. It's not a beautiful place, you know, it's like, but that's the reality of, of, of what, what it's like behind the scenes. And for us, it was, you know, all of it was kind of fascinating. It was really, um,

It was really fascinating to be in that world for the time that we were in it. So what was your most memorable experience making this documentary? God, there were so many. I mean, one of the things that really stuck with me was everywhere we went with her,

You know, you'd go in an SUV, you know, there'd be like several black SUVs or vehicles and you'd enter through this

security entrance and go up a back elevator. You enter spaces the most ugly way. You kind of enter every space the same way a messenger might enter that space or something. You're not going typically through the palatial front entrances of any

anywhere, you're always just going to the bottom to get her up to a back room. That's like a green room fitting room in it. And she's in, you know, a makeup hair room with all of her closest people who are helping. And then there's, you know, another room that's all the production people and the musician related people. And, you know, I mean, there's, there's several rooms of people wherever she goes, whenever she performs it for anything or, or doesn't appearance. And, um,

The interesting thing, so that was interesting. And then we would go, we would go in, you know, that way. And then we'd go and set up our cameras, you know, and sound or whatever, and then go back down to the street to film often. And the barricades would be up and all these people would be out there like waiting for her. And we'd be filming from behind the barricades. And it was a really surreal experience because you just see how much

these people revere her. And, you know, at one point she did a show in LA and I was interviewing people because that one might be interesting for the film because her album had just come out to talk to people about,

about her and her music and what, you know, why they were such fans. And afterwards I walked into the venue and just like start crying. So I was like, Oh my God, you know, like people, it's not just, you know, hero worship or whatever. It's like people identify with her because of her message of if you don't fit in, if you're an outsider, um,

That's cool. That's a great thing to be, especially if you're born this way and all that. So that was super memorable. It was also memorable when we were in Tokyo and...

She was practicing for this performance on this show. And I think I was filming Chris filming her. I think I was just filming with an iPhone. So I was filming him filming her. And she walked over to me. She's like,

I'm really sorry, but this is a close set. We just really need to focus on this. And she was kicking me out. And I looked at her and I go, it's me, it's Kim for the doc. And she was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. She's like, you're like me, you're like a chameleon. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

I never, she's like, you always have your hair different. I never know. She's like, it always takes me a minute to know it's you. And she was like, so sweet and like hugged me and was like, sorry, but it was like, we've been filming her for like two months at that point. I was like, really? You're kicking me out. Like, um, obviously I got to stay, but yeah. So that was funny.

We really, I mean, that just also just goes to speak to, we really tried to be flies on the wall. Like we weren't, it's, it's a hundred percent different than making reality TV. When you're making reality TV, it's like, okay, Kendra, this is a scene. So you're going to come in and you're going to be mad at this person for what they said or what you thought they said. And you guys are going to have an argument. Okay. Everybody ready? Okay. Action. You know what I mean? And then they, they improvised it out, however they're going to do. And, but,

Making a doc, especially about Lady Gaga, who is actually doing things in the moment and, you know, whether she's rehearsing for the Super Bowl or for a program she's about to be on in Tokyo or making a record, she is busy. And so you're not, the last thing you're trying to do is to get in her way, you know? So, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, because I imagine, you know, the way you're describing it, Kim, she had a small army and then to make a film as a small army. So now you make up a giant army. Yeah, and the army was often just Chris and I. Our army was typically Chris and myself.

and a sound person and a DP. That was typically, we didn't even have, we often didn't even have a PA. In fact, we didn't even have a data transfer person. I would, at the end of the shoot day, do all the data transfer from the cards to drives in my hotel room. I did all that because A, I didn't trust anybody with the footage and B, there just was no

There was just no point in, you know, we couldn't really bring anybody else on. At one point in New York, we had a PA for a little while to drive us places or to go grab stuff if we needed it. But we didn't really, you know, we had a production coordinator in L.A. that we'd have in our office. We had two production coordinators here in L.A. that we would have go do stuff or whatever. But typically when we were filming, it was it was super minimal production.

Yeah, I was going to say, I imagine it was probably like, see, it's guerrilla filmmaking, you know, you're getting your hands dirty, you know, you're you're one minute, you're a producer next minute, you know, you're transferring footage. It's all for the love of the game, right, Kim?

Yes, exactly. It is. And if you love it, if that's what you love, then you don't care because you love it. And I really love filmmaking and I love storytelling and what's not to love about running around with a camera after Lady Gaga. I mean, you're not going to complain about that. So yeah, it was great. It was fun. And were you surprised when Netflix picked this up?

No, not really, because the film was financed by Live Nation, and there were multiple people who were interested. I mean, I even have friends who buy films for studios, and they were interested. So we just didn't know who the buyer was going to be, and that was up to Live Nation, so they controlled the movie. And the film is on Netflix right now, correct?

Yes, it is. You can stream it from the comfort of your own home. You don't have to leave the house. You can go. Yeah, you can watch it anytime, anywhere. And I will also link to that in the show notes, along with the trailer and all the other good stuff that, you know, Kim and I have discussed in this in this whole conversation. Kim, I just have one more question before we close out. You know, what are you working on next?

So right now, as we speak, I'm waiting to hear from an editor whose name is Darren Navarro. He's a great editor who's done I Love Dick and Ballers. And those two shows together are not right. And also he edited a film.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Pardon my French. No, but he edited the film The End of the Tour with Jesse Eisenberg as well. And he's just a great editor. So he's overseeing the edit on a short film I just shot called, that I directed, I wrote and directed, called Violet's New Life. And it's a short, but it's also kind of a, it's a pilot presentation. It's a show presentation. And it's about, the short is about

about Violet, who takes place maybe five or 10 years in the future, who just had her mind downloaded into a 35-year-old synthetic version of herself. She had a terminal illness at 72 and decided to go ahead and have her mind downloaded into a synthetic body. And so she is picked up by her adopted daughter, Joyce, and they go to her funeral. And that's the short film. So...

um the show is basically the show is called violet's new life and it's about violet acclimating to to life as a 35 year old um and you know i mean to be 72 in a 35 year old body is pretty crazy so it's you know again i'm super interested in technology and um

I don't want to die. I don't want to die. And I don't really, even if there is an afterlife, which let's hope, you know, let's hope there's something else. I'm not conscious of it now. I don't know what that is. And that kind of pisses me off. And it pisses me off that my life is so short. So, but then, you know, when you think, okay, so great. Yeah.

what if you take all of your life's experiences, you live to your 72 and you get to be 35 again, what's that like? How do you acclimate to life? Knowing everything you know and being able to do that. So yeah, the show is like a

30-minute dramedy along the lines of Transparent or Insecure or I Love Dick or Glow. So, yeah. So I've written the first two episodes and kind of outlined the first few seasons. And we'll be taking that out in the next probably month or two and submitting it to festivals, the short film to festivals. Okay.

and that's why I'm working on that. Well, I was going to say, I, cause I know again, as we're talking about TV, that's where it's at right now. And, uh, you know, I, even when I, I discuss things, uh, you know, I don't have an agent manager, but, uh, as soon as I just start discussing things with a myriad of people, they always say, well, do you have like a TV pilot or something or anything TV episodic related? And I'm always like, well, I, I, you know, I, I,

I'm kind of slow, Kim, but I started to notice a pattern and I'm like, OK, I see it. So by the way, and I even shot a TV pilot myself a couple of years ago and I actually put it up on YouTube right now. So it's yeah, it was actually pretty cool because where I shot right after me, we shot it in a studio right down the street from my house and here in Philadelphia. And right after us, M. Night Shyamalan came in to shoot After Earth with Will Smith.

Oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah, they were like, guys, you have to leave soon because M. Night Shyamalan and Will Smith are coming in the day after you guys break. I'm like, all right, we'll have everything cleaned up. But yeah, I have it up on YouTube right now. It's all free. It's pretty cool. But yeah, I mean, see –

So that's one of the things I hope people take away is, you know, you don't want to be in a room and somebody asks what else you got. And you're like, well, I don't have any episodic stuff. Because I now realize that's the way in right now is to make sure you have episodic things. But so, Kim, I want to say it's been a blast talking to you. Where can people find you at online?

You know, on Twitter, I'm on Instagram. I am Kim Ray on Instagram, Kim Ray on Twitter. Pretty much. I don't have a website. I've been toying with the idea of a website, but I'm kind of like, you know, what am I going to do? Put clips from my movies or pages from my scripts on a website? I don't know. I'm not sold on having a website right now. But what do you think?

I think it really depends on what your strategy is. Because I think if you're going to mainly be talking to other people and sharing trailers and stuff like that, again, I'm big on Twitter. And I think it's wherever you feel the most comfortable. That's usually my advice because any tool is only as good as the person that wields it.

So that's my sage advice, Kim. I sound very zen. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Everybody, I will link to everything Kim and I talked about in the show notes at my website, DaveBullis.com.

Uh, so you can go there for, for, uh, all the podcasts, all the other stuff that I'm doing, all the craziness. And, uh, everyone, I want to say thank you so much for listening, Kim. I want to say thank you so much for coming on. This has been an absolute blast and, uh, I hope everyone checks out Gaga five foot two. Uh, by the way, Kim, do you know Gaga follows me on Twitter? No way. I'm dead serious. I swear. She follows me on Twitter.

Oh my God. She doesn't even follow me on Twitter. I never, cause I never asked. I should ask her social media person. Can she please follow me? I don't think she follows. I even know her manager, Bobby and I follow each other on Instagram. Um, but,

But yeah. Wow. You're you're that's, that's pretty impressive. I don't even remember. Can you believe this, Kim? I don't even remember how it happened. I just remember one day I was like, what? This can't be the real, and it's the real Lady Gaga verified and everything. And, uh, she follows my personal. Wow. Look at you. Yeah, seriously. You should DM it. You should DM her. I should, I should be like, Hey, I had to produce her on, uh, on the podcast. Uh, come on. Tell her, you should tell her for sure. That's awesome. Yeah.

That's really awesome. She'd be like, is that that person I kicked out off the set that one day? I'm like, it's the same one, Gaga. That's funny. So, Kim, I want to say again, thank you so much for coming on and I wish you the best. All right. Thanks so much, Dave. You too. Take care. Take care, Kim.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 786. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.