Episode 361: Navigating Age-Gap Relationships (Listener Questions)
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This is the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. In today's show, we are answering more of your sex questions. This is going to be our fourth dive into some of the questions that have come through our listener voicemail.

I'm going to answer two of them that are both about being involved in an age gap relationship. One of the questions focuses on how to deal with social stigma and judgment from other people who just aren't comfortable with age gaps. And the other focuses on how to maintain a healthy and active sex life in an age gap relationship when the partners have different libidos. To help me in answering these questions, Ashley Weller is back on the show. She is a human sexuality and health psychology professor at Chapman University in Southern California.

Ashley also works in mental health clinical research and has more than 15 years of experience in sex education. She also has a podcast called What's Your Position, which tackles issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, life, and love from a comedic yet educational point of view.

I'm really looking forward to diving into these questions. But before we do, I just wanted to mention that if you have questions you'd like to have answered on the show, you can send me a podcast voicemail of your own at speakpipe.com slash sex and psychology. You can do it from your computer or from your phone. So keep sending those questions in. This is going to be another fascinating episode. Stick around and we're going to jump in right after the break.

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Hi, Ashley, and welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here again. I love having you, and it's always a pleasure to speak. So I'm really looking forward to diving into some listener questions with you today. We have two questions in this episode that are all about navigating age gap relationships, where you have one partner who is significantly older than the other. But

But before we dive into them, I wanted to ask you a general question first, which is how you would define an age gap relationship. So I'm just curious, do you think there's a minimum age discrepancy that you need to have in order for something to count as an age gap? So I've read that there's an equation. There's a math equation that you're supposed to do. You divide your age in half.

And then you add seven. And then if that number is added to your age,

that's appropriate. So I'm 42. So if I cut my age in half and I said 22 and I added 20, I added that to, anyway, I don't want to do math to figure this out. Like, I think that there is something to be said for maybe not being able to be the parent of someone. Maybe like,

If you reach an age between you and your partner where you could have technically given birth to that person, that may be a questionable age to society and maybe one that gets judged more often. Personally, I don't really have a number that comes to mind when it comes to age gap relationships that's appropriate, quote unquote.

Yeah, you know, I think it's something that is highly subjective. And, you know, different size age gaps might have different meaning for people at different stages of life. Like, for example, a five or six or seven year age gap might not mean a whole lot to people who are in, say, their 30s or 40s or 50s. But if the younger partner is, let's say, 18 years old,

that six or seven year age gap might be more significant in terms of like its social meaning and also the implications for the relationship. So it's a subjective thing. The way I've defined it, my research has typically been an age difference of 10 or more years. It's a little easier than doing all that math. But I think that's, you know, sort of the point at which people tend to place, you

somewhat higher scrutiny on these relationships because it starts to become more noticeable when you're having a 10 or plus year age gap. But again, it's a highly subjective thing.

I also feel like if you are in different decades, like even if the age gap is five years and it's between 28 and 32, you say you're in your 20s and your partner's in their 30s. I feel like that's going to get a bit more scrutiny than if you were to say I'm 30 and they're 35. Or if you were to say I'm 18 and they're 24, the different decades I almost feel like can get more scrutiny even with that smaller age gap.

Yeah, and it's also about the perceived age gap as well, you know, just based on two people and how they look next to one another. And sometimes you can have an older and a younger partner who actually look like they're pretty close in age. And so they evade a lot of the scrutiny. But when you have one partner who looks significantly older than the other, even if they're not that different apart in terms of age, you know, that...

Bias starts to creep into the equation. That visual perception. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so let's dive into our first question. So this was actually a write-in, so I'm going to read it for you. Now, the listener wrote, I am a 21-year-old female in a relationship with a man who is 19 years older. I was previously in a relationship with a man of the same age difference, but he looked much younger, so no one questioned it. My current partner is a handsome 40-something, but he definitely looks sporty.

We live in a smallish town in the South. In the short time we've been dating, we've had multiple negative reactions from strangers. People stare and I can deal with it when it's just out of curiosity, but many people, young and old, stare with the obvious intent of making both of us feel ashamed and uncomfortable.

I really like this person and I want to see where it goes, but the social feedback we get feels like a punch in the gut every time. It makes it feel like we're doing something that is both illegal and horrifically disgusting. It is very hard not to internalize the judgment. It's very hard to find resources too because my situation is both rare in the social context I live in and most people advise me to just ignore it, which isn't super helpful. My question to you is, do you have any advice on dealing with the social stigma?

So, this is such a good question because there really is a lot of stigma surrounding these relationships. But before we get into that stigma management aspect, let's talk a little bit about where that stigma comes from in the first place. So, you know, we know age gap relationships have always been controversial to some extent, but that stigma seems to be increasing. And in some of my own research looking at people who are in marginalized relationships,

one of the things that I found is that people in age gap relationships actually report feeling even more stigma than people who are in interracial or same-sex relationships. And by that, I should just clarify that I wasn't asking people to compare how much stigma they feel relative to people in other types of relationships. This is just to what extent do you perceive approval, acceptance of your relationship from family, friends, and society. So when you compare those levels of

perceived approval and perceived marginalization, like the marginalization is higher for people in age gap relationships compared to people in other types of relationships in terms of how much stigma they feel. So there is definitely an element of stigma here. So why do you think age gap relationships make so many people uncomfortable in the first place?

I think a lot of it has to do with the perceived power imbalance. I do also feel like there is a lot of interest, especially when the female is the one who is the younger in the relationship. I think that there is stigma for varied reasons towards females in age gap relationships. One, is she in it because she wants money? Two, is she safe? Is she being coerced?

As far as it goes with men on the older side who are in age gap relationships with younger women, there's the stigma, you know, why can't you date someone your own age? Why are you preying on younger individuals? And I think that it's difficult for people, especially in a puritive sort of culture like the one that we have, to look at a relationship and think,

beyond this surface, I'm only attracted to their outward appearance. How could you possibly be attracted to someone who's so much older than you when there's so many more layers to what brings people together and what people find attractive? I think a lot of the stigma stems from

being uneducated really about attraction and where attraction comes from, but also this idea that individuals in age gap relationships have this power imbalance and someone's being taken advantage of, and we need to be the vigilantes in society to shame them so that they stop this power imbalance.

I agree with you that so much of this is about perceived power imbalances, especially when you look at comments that are made on social media about people in age gap relationships. And increasingly, you're seeing even very small age gaps of just a couple of years that are under this heightened scrutiny. And it all seems to come down to like, "That's creepy. An older person should never be with a younger person. They have more power. They're exploiting the younger partner." And

You know, there's, again, lots of layers to all of this. You know, I think there's a double standard here where women in age gap relationships, whether they're younger or older, their decision to enter that relationship is always more scrutinized than that of men. And I think especially if you look at a context of, say, a younger man with an older woman, people are much less likely to perceive that as being exploitative. And, you know, people might say he's lucky as opposed to being a victim, right? So

Yeah, lots of interesting societal perceptions around all of this. And a lot of them have to do with just one aspect of the relationship, which is sex. How could you have sex with someone so much older or so much younger? How are you going to have children with this person? We put a lot of assumptions on other people, which we do a lot in societies about the types of sex that

people are having and why. But it's interesting that so much of this scrutiny is surrounding the sexual aspect of the relationship when we ourselves are in relationships for more than just the sex, but we somehow only believe that these age gap relationships are in it for the sex.

Wait, there's more to a relationship than just sex? I know. It's crazy. Not a lot. There's not a lot more, but a little bit. Keeping your feet warm when it's cold outside. That's the other reason. Yeah. So I think there's a lot that we could say about, you know, kind of the origins of the stigma. Again, it's not new, but I think it is becoming commonplace.

an even bigger issue than it was in the past. Like, it seemed like for a little while, age gap relationships were starting to become more normalized, especially if you think back to when Demi Moore was dating Ashton Kutcher. And there was this kind of shift that was happening around that time that sort of pushed these relationships into the spotlight and

People, I think, started looking at them in somewhat different ways. But in the last couple of years, we've just seen like this big burst of discussion about age gap relationships on social media that views them through an incredibly negative light.

So that brings us to the question of how do you manage stigma when people aren't accepting of your relationship? And if you search for this online, some of the most common pieces of advice that people are going to tell you are to just ignore it or to literally move somewhere else where people might be more accepting. But I don't think that advice is super practical.

I've actually published several papers on marginalized relationships, which have included age gap couples in them, as well as people in other types of relationships that are stigmatized. And what I found is that that stigma takes a toll on people's mental health and well-being and on the relationship itself.

So the more marginalized people feel their relationship is, the more stressed they are. And that stress puts wear and tear on their health and well-being and also on the quality of the relationship. It even predicts breaking up sooner. You know, I actually did a one-year longitudinal study of people in marginalized relationships. And the more marginalized people felt at time one, the more likely they were to have broken up at time two. So yeah, I mean, there are important real-world consequences of the stigma. So we need to find healthy ways to deal with it.

So what are your thoughts on this? How do you deal with being in a relationship when other people just seem like they're constantly judging you? I think that being aware of the fact that you are in a marginalized relationship is probably the first thing that you need to take into account.

Understanding that whether it is a same-sex relationship and you live in a town that is very conservative, whether it is an interracial relationship and your family doesn't agree, or it is interreligion and your family doesn't agree, or it's an age gap relationship. Understanding that.

the type of relationship that you're about to embark on and owning and taking autonomy of that relationship, knowing that there are going to be challenges that you will end up facing instead of facing them later in the relationship and then letting those affect your relationship. Starting out with a solid foundation and solid understanding of what it means to be in the type of relationship that you are choosing to be in.

And I would never say to anyone, just don't listen because I have anxiety. And when people say, just calm down, I'm like, just go fuck yourself. So just don't listen is a terrible thing because it eats at you. And when someone says something like, oh, he's only with you because you look hot, that starts to play in your mind or she's only with you for your money. That starts to get into your head, especially when these comments are coming from people we trust.

and people we love like our family and our friends, I think the next step would be to talk with your partner about ways to mitigate the stress that you're feeling. So maybe having a weekly meeting where you talk about any comments that you may have heard, any side eyes you may have seen, maybe making a game out of it. Every time you see a side eye, you have to kiss me. Or every time somebody whispers about what you think might be our age, we have to wave at them.

So incorporating the fact that this is probably going to happen into your relationship and giving it some brevity, making light of it, or really having a deep conversation about what it is that's bothering you and keeping an open dialogue with your partner. Because in all honesty, that's the only person that matters in that relationship is you and your partner.

Yeah, you know, I think some of the keys here are really finding a supportive social network, you know, whether that's with the community of people that you find online who are also in age gap relationships or finding friends in your local area who you can hang out with and who accept you and your partner for who you are and who you can lean on in times of stress. And that's not going to eliminate the stigma, but it's going to give you some social support.

Also, working with a licensed therapist can potentially be helpful if this is something that is really starting to interfere with your mental health. And they might be able to help you in terms of developing some healthy coping mechanisms. And I think, too, building on what you said about really good communication with your partner, that's super key in all of this. And maybe you should have a talk about the stigma and how you're going to deal with it when it pops up.

And, you know, so for example, can you have a fallback plan in the event that a really negative interaction makes one of you super uncomfortable and you just need to get out of there? So, you know, setting some boundaries and doing some advanced preparation can be one way of helping to mitigate the stigma. And also, like you said, if you can find some way to find some levity in the situation, you know, and try and counterbalance the bad with the good can be another way to go as well.

I like the idea too of having a safe word. Like if you're in a situation like a Christmas party at your work and it's the first time you're meeting your partners, you know, colleagues and comments are being made or things are happening that feel as if they are coming at you. Being able to feel safe enough within your relationship that if you say, hey, I'm uncomfortable and I'd like to leave, that that's okay. That's a safe thing to say to your partner. So having a safe word is a really, I love that one.

Yeah, safe words are underused and underrated. Like people think they're only for kink, but having safe words for lots of other kinds of sex and things in our relationships. A family Christmas party. I think back to Four Christmases with Reese Witherspoon and Vince Vaughn. And whenever they say mistletoe, it means it's time to go. It's we gotta go. So mistletoe is an excellent safe word for anyone who needs one. Yes, absolutely.

So there's also the question of like, you know, it kind of depends on where the judgment is coming from in terms of what you can do about it. You know, it's one thing if it's coworkers who are saying it, it's another if it's random strangers and it's quite another if it's

your family or, you know, your best friend. And so whether you choose to engage or interact with the negativity, you know, that's a different thing. And some people are comfortable engaging with it. Other people aren't. And, you know, I don't know that there's like a right approach in terms of how to handle that, but it's also just going to depend on where it's coming from.

A lot of this answer is going to be so subjective, not only on the couple and the dynamic and the strength and the how long they've been in a relationship and their communication style, but also you as an individual. If you tend to take things personally.

it might be really difficult for you to navigate an age gap relationship because it is going to come with stigma at some point. Even if your family is very accepting, even if your friends are really accepting, and if you find really great communities, if the age is visibly noticeable,

And I think that is really when it comes into play is when there is a visible age difference between people, you're going to get looks from strangers and you may need to develop a thicker skin and you might need to develop some coping skills because I would almost bet that

that it isn't just the stigma of your relationship that is causing you stress. You probably are experiencing stress from other aspects of your life as well, thinking that people are talking about you or thinking that people are angry with you. And that could be indicative of an anxiety disorder or just the inability to have emotional maturity. And so I think that this question is truly going to be subjective based on your ability to navigate

what others think of you. Yeah. And I think too, in some cases, there might also be a component of internalized shame, right? Where maybe they feel on some level that they're doing something wrong by being in an age gap relationship. And then that is further feeding into the anxiety that they feel when other people judge their relationship because it's bringing their own shame to the surface. So self-fulfilling prophecies. Yeah. Yeah. So for some people, that might be another issue that

that they have to navigate here. And again, another case where it might be helpful to speak with a licensed therapist. Okay, let's talk about the second question. This one came through our podcast voicemail. So let's listen in. Hi, Justin. I was just curious if you can talk about May-December relationships. I met my spouse when I was in my late 20s and he was in his early 40s, making it approximately about a 16-year age difference difference.

We've been together now for well over 20 years. And so I'm now finding myself in my mid-40s and he's in his early 60s. And our sex life has always been pretty good up until about a few years ago. And I know you've spoken a lot about different things regarding menopause, paramenopause,

you know, in the women's bodies. And I appreciate that, all of that. And of course, different desires and libidos and men's health. But what are some ways that you can tell me and help me to navigate the decline in his libido, but mine is still at a higher pace and I still want to remain intimate, but I feel like we're in a danger zone of getting to the point where

we might become more roommates more than anything. And that scares me. So the crux of the question here is that we have a woman in her late 40s who has a higher libido than her partner who's in his 60s. And she's worried that they're on this path to becoming passionless roommates. Now, this is a classic sexual desire discrepancy, and it's a common issue that comes up in age gap relationships. So what are your thoughts on how to handle this?

So again, when you enter into an age gap relationship, understanding that there are going to be difficulties that may not arise, pun intended, in other relationships as often. For example, kids, end of life issues, caretaking issues, retirement issues.

activity level, physicality issues. And so just taking into account when you start an age gap relationship, understanding that the age difference, if it's 20 years, as it is in this case, knowing that you are going to cross some physical impairments at some point and getting ahead of this, right? So making sure that if you are going to enter into an age gap relationship for those who have not yet done so, getting ahead of it. Now, she's there. So

Having a conversation about maybe introducing some other ways to be intimate. The libido of your partner is absolutely something you want to take into account.

It is sometimes not necessarily that the person doesn't want to engage in sex. It just may not be the first thing on their mind when they get home. So maybe feeling more comfortable about suggesting it when you are the one that has a higher libido. Seeing if your partner is open to engaging in play, even if they're not the one that comes up with the idea. It's still something that excites them. Maybe learning some different types of foreplay that will get your partner's libido revved.

It may just take a little longer to get the car warmed up. The car still runs. The car still works. You just have to let it de-ice a little bit. So learning some new techniques to help your partner get more into the mood. Introducing novelty into a relationship is always an excellent way to help both partners kind of find a new fire. So introducing new toys, role play,

And then really having a conversation with your partner about your needs and desires and figuring out if this is something that is going to break your relationship. And it might. And that is a conversation worth having.

Yeah, I think that's all great advice. I want to talk a little bit about kind of the gendered aspect of this because when people think about and hear about sexual desire discrepancies in heterosexual relationships, they're usually thinking about it from the standpoint of the man having higher desire and the woman having lower desire. But what we're talking about here is a flip-flopped case of that.

And something that a lot of people don't think about or recognize is that as men age, the way they experience sexual desire often changes. And it often goes from being the more spontaneous type to being the more responsive type, right? Where desire only sets in after

sexual activity has begun. And that's just a very different way to experience desire. You know, for somebody who has only ever felt it in the spontaneous way, you might think that there's something really wrong with you if you no longer or only rarely experience that. But it is normal for there to be that

kind of shift in desire and how it works. And so I think we kind of need to have an understanding of our own sexuality and how it can evolve over time. And once you understand this concept of responsive desire, that actually is very revelatory for a lot of people. It's actually relieving.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that can be part of the story here is just sort of understanding like changes in desire over time. Another part of it too, for an older man who is experiencing a loss in desire is having a health screening to make sure that there aren't any underlying health issues that might be impacting his desire or

arousal. You know, this could be related to lower testosterone levels. It could be related to cardiovascular issues that make it harder to pump blood into the penis, right? So having a health screen could be useful here too. And, you know, he might also consider an erectile dysfunction drug. You know, even if he doesn't have serious erectile problems, these drugs can actually be helpful, I think, in terms of facilitating desire. And this is a rarely discussed

aspect of how Viagra and Cialis work, what they do is that they lower the threshold to experiencing arousal, right? And so it can make it easier to get an erection and for desire to set in. And for a lot of guys, they kind of need to have the erection first in order to feel desire. And so having something that facilitates an erection can also be a facilitator to sexual desire.

I think that's perfectly stated, especially when men are so used to being like, oh, I have an erection. I must need to do something with it. And now I'm turned on. Yay, erection. And when the erection doesn't happen first, it could cause a psychological sort of barrier for a person to be like, well, I can't possibly be turned on or aroused right now because I'm

I don't have an erection. If you give someone an erectile dysfunction drug and they get an erection, that may actually stimulate the part of their brain that's like, oh,

We have an erection. It's time to do something. Even though you could achieve erection maybe through giving your partner oral sex or watching your partner masturbate or watching a erotic film together could actually kickstart that erection. But I think to your point, it is nice to just have that sort of

visible and physical manifestation of desire that they have experienced for so long of their life, giving them that almost permission to feel desire.

And, you know, I like what you said earlier about maybe you need to change your approach to sex, you know, expand your idea of what sex is, especially if erectile issues have started popping up, so to speak. We need to expand beyond penetration and put more things on the menu. And like you said, it might also take more of a warm-up period, sometimes just

As you get older, it might just take longer for you to build arousal and desire. And so I like to suggest what I call the slow initiation for sex, which is instead of saying, let's do it right now, it's you're letting the initiation unfold immediately.

throughout the day or over the course of an entire week, right? Where you're spending time communicating with your partner. Maybe it's sending them sexy texts or sharing photos or something. That buildup, that buildup is so nice. And I think it can be especially important in cases where you've got these sexual desire discrepancies because people just aren't on quite the same page in terms of their libido. So you kind of need to...

rev up, you know, the interest in sex and doing that slow initiation can help there. But I think it is important whenever you have desire discrepancies to set realistic expectations. You know, the higher desire partner might want to be having sex every day or every other day or, you

they might want it at a relatively high frequency that would just be unattainable and not realistic in terms of what their partner is interested in or even capable of. So, you know, setting realistic expectations is really key to resolving any kind of sexual disagreement.

It's interesting, and thanks for sticking with my car analogy because I found it to be perfect. But it is interesting that a lot of what we're talking about, I almost forgot we were talking about age gap relationships for a second. Because this happens in long-term relationships too. Even when people are the same age. My husband and I are three weeks apart, and we have desire discrepancies throughout our marriage.

Just because you have an age gap relationship doesn't necessarily mean you will have these struggles and it doesn't necessarily mean that you won't. But just because you don't have an age gap relationship doesn't mean you don't need to pay attention to what we're saying, because this is information that you can be using in any relationship. I think that's so true. And I think it's also important to recognize in age gap relationships, like

The way sex functions in the relationship can be very different from one couple to the next. You know, in some cases you have desire discrepancies that emerge, but in other cases, people are kind of perfectly sexually aligned, right? Sometimes an older partner who has a very high libido

prefers to be with a younger partner who can match and keep up with their libido, right? So sometimes they're actually kind of like perfectly matched in a way, but in other cases you have the desire discrepancy. Yeah, absolutely. So there are lots of challenges and issues that can come up in age gap relationships. And you mentioned a couple of the other ones, you know, you can have discrepant desires for children that might emerge.

Handling the health issues later in life can be an issue. You can have differences in maturity levels and life values, generational differences. Power dynamics are sometimes an issue. You know, I think people tend to assume that power dynamics are always an issue in these relationships. They aren't, but sometimes they do emerge. I say this having just finished reading Cher's autobiography she was in.

Some age gap relationships. And that first relationship she was in with Sonny Bono was an age gap relationship. And there was a very lopsided power differential there. Actually, it's a fantastic book. I highly recommend it. Do you now believe in life after love?

I do. Such a good book. But anyway, so age gap relationships can face a number of challenges, but I think it's important to underline this by saying that just because they're challenging doesn't mean that they can't also be happy, healthy, and fulfilling. You know, all relationships face some set of challenges. It's just that different relationships face different sets of challenges, and we all need to figure out different ways to adapt.

I kind of feel like individuals in age gap relationships tend to remind me of individuals in consensually non-monogamous relationships in that they communicate in ways

And I'm talking about the ones that work, right? The age gap relationships that are sturdy, the ones that have longevity, the ones that are insulated from the outside stigma, the ones that can make it through the rough patches, right?

They remind me of consensually non-monogamous couples because there's such a high bar for communication. And the need for communication is so much greater because you are going to face a different set of challenges ranging from pop culture references, right?

Right. To, I mean, just to how you, the language that you use, especially, you know, if you have a younger person who's going off to work and they work with a group of people who are the same age as them, and then they're coming home to their partner who is older, the relationship,

verbiage that you're using or the types of activities that you want to engage in. But what I have found most from looking up age gap relationships is the reason they are attracted to these individuals typically is because they find so much commonality in hobbies, in likes, in the way that they want to live their life, in their values, in their morals.

I don't see a lot of people saying, hey, I got into an age gap relationship when I was 20 with a man who was 60 and all of a sudden figured out 10 years later he didn't want kids. These are things you talk about in the beginning of any relationship. And

It is difficult for me to look at a society that's judging these individuals and saying, well, aren't you going to want kids someday? It's like, well, first of all, none of your fucking business. And second of all, don't you think I've had that conversation? I think that there is such a high level of communication that is necessary, but that's also happening without society's wherewithal for good reason. It's none of your business. But I really do akin them to consensually non-monogamous people in the fact that their communication has got to be high.

Yeah, and that's something I've seen in my own research on age gap relationships is that these relationships are surprisingly strong in terms of their relationship quality. And I think your comparison to consensually non-monogamous relationships is pretty apt, especially when you look at reasons people say for entering relationships.

consensually non-monogamous relationship, they're actually pretty similar to what a lot of people say in entering age gap relationships, where one of them is having this diversified need fulfillment, right? And being with a partner who is of a significantly different age necessarily means you're going to have some very different kinds of life experiences and things that you're bringing to the table. And in terms of

things that they can teach you and that you can teach them. And so there's this self-expansion that I think occurs at a higher level in age gap relationships because partners are just bringing something that's very different in terms of their backgrounds. Well, it's been a lot of fun discussing age gap relationships with you, Ashley. I'm really looking forward to our next conversation and answering even more listener questions. Always a pleasure. I'll be on anytime you want. For more information on you and what you do and where people can find out about your work, where can they go?

Well, we just got a new website, so I'm super excited. It's just our handle, whatsyourpositionpodcast.com. You can find links to our merchandise. You can find links to our affiliate sponsors. You can find links to all of our episodes. You can also find us on Instagram at whatsyourpositionpodcast. I love chatting with people. So if you ever want to DM me, I'm happy to respond. I actually had somebody tell me the other day that you and me are their favorite podcast

sex podcasters and they only listen to us. And I was like, yay. So shout out to that listener. And then you can email me at what's your position podcast at Gmail, or you can click the contact me link in our website and it sends me a direct message. Well, thanks again for being here and I'll be sure to include thanks to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.