Episode 397: Interview With The Vagina Whisperer
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You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex aid you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin A. Miller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.

The pelvic floor has recently become a pretty hot topic of conversation. In the past, you didn't hear much about it except for the occasional mention of Kegel exercises. And this is probably because talking about pelvic health has always been kind of taboo. We're talking about muscles that play a vital role in sexual, reproductive, urinary, and bowel function, all of which can be uncomfortable topics of discussion.

However, social media has actually been paving the way for more conversations about the pelvic floor. So let's talk about it. In today's show, we're going to discuss what the pelvic floor is, the most common pelvic floor problems and how they affect people's sex lives, why pelvic health issues often get ignored in mainstream medicine, what to do if you're struggling to find help, and so much more.

I am joined by Sarah Reardon, a board-certified pelvic floor physical therapist with over 18 years of experience helping individuals to prevent and overcome pelvic floor issues.

Sarah is the founder of The V-Hive, an online, on-demand pelvic floor fitness program for pregnancy, postpartum, menopause, painful sex, and pelvic floor strengthening. She's known in the media as the Vagina Whisperer and is author of the new book, Floored, a complete guide to women's pelvic floor health at every age and stage. This is going to be another amazing conversation. Stick around and we're going to jump in right after the break. ♪

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Hi, Sarah, and welcome to the show. Thanks, Justin. Thanks for having me. Well, I'm very happy to have you here. So we're going to be having a two-part conversation that's all about the pelvic floor. So in today's show, we're going to focus on basic understanding of the pelvic floor. And in the next episode, we'll talk about how to optimize your pelvic floor health in order to have a better sex life. But to get us started, I'd like you to tell us a little bit about yourself. So specifically, how did you come to be known as the Vagina Whisperer?

So I started as a pelvic floor physical therapist over 18 years ago. And I jumped right from physical therapy school thinking I was going to be a trainer for a sports team and really kind of get into sports physical therapy. And I had a small clinical rotation in what was back then called women's health, now it's called pelvic health. And I really just found it fascinating to learn more about my own body as a woman. I think it was...

I had no idea this group of muscles existed, how important they were, how integral to day-to-day function they were. And then when I started working with patients, I loved working with the patients and helping them, one, not only change their quality of life from everything to being able to have sex and that led to pregnancy or managing constipation and then they were able to travel or...

helping with urinary leakage, and then they were able to exercise. But it was just really empowering people with understanding their bodies better.

And this part of their body, the pelvic area just became less mystical, a little more functional and just really changed their quality of life once they were able to get treatment. And so I've been doing this for about 18 years. That's all that I've done. And, you know, have my social media account, The Vagina Whisperer really kind of grew over the past six or seven years. And I think it's a real testament to how little people get this information from their healthcare system and how much they really want it.

And they're turning to me as a pelvic floor physical therapist and occasionally a dancing vulva on Instagram for their health education. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I love the name, the vagina whisperer. I mean, I need to get a cool name like that. But, you know, I totally understand how there's this lack of knowledge and education out there. I mean, certainly the pelvic floor is not something that is discussed as part of traditional sex education. And so where are people to go to learn about this?

And we would expect and hope that our doctors would be able to help us to better understand and demystify this part of the body. But even they aren't necessarily always fully equipped and trained to know what they need to know. And we'll talk more about that a little bit later. But before we get into that, let's talk a little bit about what the pelvic floor is. So when you use the term pelvic floor, what are you talking about and what are the main functions of it?

So your pelvic floor is really a basket of muscles that sit at the base of your pelvis. So if you can imagine the bony skeleton that we see on jammies for little kids or in the doctor's office, and you see those elephant ear shaped bones, and there's an opening at the very bottom. At the very bottom of that opening is where the pelvic floor sits like a hammock. And it attaches from the pubic bone in the front to the tailbone in the back and side to side. And it's a very, very

that hammock of muscles and tissue supports your pelvic organs. So in the female body, it holds the bladder, the bowels, the uterus and ovaries. In the male body, it holds the bladder, the bowels and the prostate.

And then in addition, there are openings in this muscle. In a female body, there's three openings, one where urine exits, one where poop exits, the anal opening, and then the vaginal opening for vaginal intercourse, vaginal birth, menstruation. The male body, there's two openings, one for the urethra where urine exits, and then the anal opening.

So we see that this muscle serves to support our organs, kind of like a hammock or a trampoline all throughout the day. But it also has the sphincters that help keep in urine in stool, relax to empty, and then also play a role in sexual function.

So when we think about how important this muscle is, it literally is supporting our spine with our other core muscles, like our abs and our low back. It's keeping us continent. So maintaining continents of urine and stool, and then relaxing to have a bowel movement or urination. It

It's helping with erections, orgasms, vaginal intercourse. And so it plays a role in all of these things. And it's so fascinating to me and unfortunate that we don't learn about it. I mean, in high school or middle school, you might get a little bit of period education or a little bit of sex education, but you're not learning about your pelvic health and your pelvic floor until oftentimes there's a problem like leakage or sexual pain or difficulty with orgasms or erectile dysfunction. So-

You know, my goal, my mission is to really help people understand their bodies better so they can approach their medical providers, also educate medical providers to screen for these questions, and then let them know that pelvic health therapy and exercises are a great and effective treatment option for them.

Yeah, and it would be great if people learned more about the pelvic floor earlier on in life, because then it could become a form of preventative care, right? Because as you mentioned, all too often, people don't even understand what the pelvic floor is until there's already a problem that's there. And, you know, for so many things in our life and with our health, we just often are behind the curve and don't learn about it until it's too late. So I appreciate having you out there and doing this fantastic education work for the masses and helping them to better understand their pelvic floors.

Absolutely. So how common is it for women to have problems with their pelvic floor and what are their most common pelvic floor problems? So it's really interesting. And I wrote the book and it's called Floored, a Women's Guide for Pelvic Floor Health at Every Age and Stage. Because I think a misunderstanding is we often think that pelvic floor issues only present during pregnancy or after giving birth or when we're aging, when the reality is, is pelvic floor symptoms can arise at any point in a woman's life.

We see it as early as, you know, when someone is getting their menstrual cycle, if they're having painful periods that can cause pelvic floor tension, if they have difficulty inserting different menstrual hygiene products like a tampon or a menstrual cup.

We see it again with young female athletes. Urinary incontinence or urinary leakage is likely the most common symptom we see across all ages. But even female athletes, over 40% of high impact female athletes who have never had kids can leak urine. And I've worked with patients and they're like, my daughter plays volleyball and she leaks or she's a gymnast and she leaks. And, you know, these are young teenage girls who are presenting with pelvic floor issues, not even aware that they have a pelvic floor. Yeah.

Other things that can happen are painful sex. So that can be something where pain presents the first time someone has intercourse or, you know, commonly after birth when there could be some scar tissue or sensitivity to the muscles and tissues and or with menopause and aging, the tissues change again. And then we see different things like pelvic organ prolapse.

So that's when that hammock isn't as supportive of those pelvic organs and they start to drop down and there can be a bulge in the vagina, pressure, heaviness, or back pain. And then lastly, one of the other things related to sex specifically is difficulty with orgasms. So the pelvic floor muscles during an orgasm contract and relax and help maintain blood flow in the area and increase lubrication to the tissues. And when there's pelvic floor dysfunction,

You may have a hard time reaching an orgasm, pain with orgasms, pain after orgasms. In the male population, we see erectile dysfunction, the inability to maintain erections or have an orgasm. So it's pretty wild that we can take medications or, I mean, do all kinds of different things when really it could be a muscle function issue affecting pain, sex, peeing, pooping, periods, all the things.

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned how pelvic floor issues can happen at any phase of the lifespan. As you said, all too often when we hear about the pelvic floor, it's only in the context of women and specifically with regard to aging or childbirth. And I think that gives the impression that this is an issue that only

arises in midlife to late life and specifically that it only affects women but you know everybody has a pelvic floor so you know pelvic floor issues are essentially something that can happen to anyone regardless of their age sex gender or other background features

No, absolutely. And I think that that's where there's a little bit of a misunderstanding in what happens if we don't diagnose and screen for these issues early. One, people are, you know, living for longer than they need to with these problems and they're suffering unnecessarily. But then the issues also become chronic. You know, if we catch something within the first three months when it's pretty acute, it's very easily treatable.

But when you have to balance from physician to physician or try different modalities and none of them are effective, then it really becomes a chronic issue. And then with that, there are other sequelae that go along with it, anxiety, depression. It can affect your relationships. It can affect your work life, your ability to parent, exercise. So we really see the ripples of these impairments go far, which is why I think it's so important to your point to know about

what these muscles do, what common issues are, and how to get help for them. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all of that. And we're going to be focusing in our conversations more on women because that's the population that you wrote your book for. But for listeners who are curious to learn more about pelvic floor function in men in terms of things that they might want to do

to assess their own pelvic floor health or improve it. I do have some previous podcast episodes where we talked about this. So look for my interview with Dr. Lance Frank. I believe he goes by Lance in your pants on the socials, but we had a fun conversation all about men and the pelvic floor a few episodes back. So be sure to check that one out for more information on men and pelvic health.

So in your book, you talk a bit about how the medical establishment is failing women when it comes to pelvic floor issues. And oftentimes the issue is dismissed or women are just told to kind of live with it. So I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about that. So what are women's experiences commonly like when they go to the doctor for a pelvic floor issue? And why do so many healthcare professionals seem ill-equipped to treat pelvic floor problems?

You know, so I think one of the basic things is that medical providers are not being trained about how to screen for these issues or even what they are. You know, often our medical care system, it's siloed into you have a doctor for your gastrointestinal system, a doctor for your bladder, a doctor for your uterus. But because the pelvic floor is a component in all of those systems, it's often overlooked.

So doctors aren't educated on how to screen for this. They have quick visits that don't even always entail a physical exam, and they don't know how to even test or assess for a pelvic floor muscle issue. So I think getting residents and fellows better trained on how to evaluate for pelvic floor dysfunction is key.

And then you have to ask about it. I mean, the research is very clear. If we do not ask our patients about their pelvic health, whether it's their sexual health or urinary leakage, their back pain, their bowel issues, they're likely not going to tell us. So we really have to open those conversations and screen for them and then also know where to refer them. You know, you can't just hand someone a brochure to do Kegels or tell them to take Miralax or

or a pill for sexual health when there's so much more underneath that that you could be helping them with just by referring them out to a physical therapist or providing them this book or giving them online resources. Research is underfunded for women. I mean, it is hands down an underfunded sector of health in general.

And then even when we do see some different components of women's health, like osteoporosis or hypertension or cancer getting a lot of attention and a little bit more research dollars, more women experience urinary leakage than osteoporosis, diabetes, or high blood pressure. Yet people are less likely to get

treatment for urinary incontinence. And some of it is because these are intimate issues. They're somewhat embarrassing. It's easier to put on a pad or take a pill or get a surgery, but these are very temporarily effective and are not giving people the real quality of life that they need. And so I just think it's reframing how we're approaching these issues and getting people help sooner instead of just, again, having the narrative persist that,

These are normal. You've had babies. You're getting older. This is what happens for people with vaginas because it's pretty unacceptable. Yeah, you know, and I think part of the reason why a lot of doctors don't get much training on this is because just in general, sex education is pretty poor for healthcare professionals. You know, as I've said before on the show, I think if you look at the data, doctors on average are getting about 10 hours of sex ed total

across their four years of medical school. You know, that's the equivalent of about 2.5 hours per year. And in that span of time, you know, they need to learn about sexually transmitted infections and sexual dysfunctions and, you know, anatomy and all of these other sorts of issues. And it's like, you know, it's just not sufficient in terms of

all of the complexities of sexual health. And so relatively few doctors get very advanced training in this. And, you know, most of the doctors who do get more training tend to be in the world of gynecology or in urology. But even then, there can still be gaps and deficiencies in what they're learning. And so unless you're becoming like a board certified sexual medicine specialist,

you're really not going to know everything that you need to know. So I think, you know, a big part of it is that we just need better sex education for doctors. And that doesn't mean that doctors have to know everything about everything, but having at least some basic knowledge could really help in terms of screening for some of these issues and then also helping to refer them to the appropriate place because, you

I've spoken with other people on this show before, and when it comes to things like women's genital pain issues, it often takes several years just to get a diagnosis because they're bouncing around from one provider to another and nobody really knows quite what's going on and they think it's in somebody else's wheelhouse. And it's just, it's kind of unacceptable that it takes so long for people to just get a diagnosis because you need that before you can even get started with treatment.

You're so right. And I couldn't agree more. I think that it's a lot in the training. And the thing is, I don't think we're asking gynecologists or urologists to become sexual medicine specialists or pelvic floor therapists, but we are asking them to screen and refer. I mean, we have a specialist for everything and there are specialists in these spaces in every major city and even digital options available. So there really is no excuse as to why someone shouldn't be able to

you know, at least get referred. I mean, I hate to even say this word, but a lot of it just goes into gaslighting. It's like, oh, there's nothing I can do with you. There's nothing wrong with you because there's no positive test or, you know, I'm not finding anything, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And I think that this often happens with vaginal pain or vulvar pain with women, which can be, you know, a real challenge to have sexual activity when you have pain in your genitals.

is that they're like, well, there's no infection, so I can't help you. But I'm like, well, then you should refer them out to a therapist who can assess their muscles and tissues and nerves or a sexual health therapist who can also address a psychosocial and mental component and really just reframe what the team looks like to support these individuals versus saying like, well, I can't help you, so good luck. Thank you.

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Yeah. And so much of this too also goes back to what you were saying earlier about how these are intimate topics, you know, when you're talking about pooping and peeing and having sex, like these are things that a lot of people just aren't comfortable talking about in general. And our doctors aren't necessarily comfortable.

always better at talking about topics that might potentially be embarrassing or uncomfortable. And so I think sometimes doctors avoid uncomfortable topics in the physician's office because they don't want to make the patient uncomfortable and they themselves don't want to feel uncomfortable too. And so that leads a lot of these issues to just kind of get ignored or not addressed. And they go on longer than they need to before somebody finally gets some help and treatment for it.

You know, what's interesting is I think you're right. I didn't think about that kind of like we don't want to make them nervous or scared. But I don't think that it's our role to, as medical providers, to protect a patient. I think it's our role to give them the information and let them make an informed decision, right? And so I remember I was working at a hospital here in New Orleans when I moved back to my hometown. And I was working there for three months. I was like, I think that we should really, you know, start working.

pelvic health therapist should come into childbirth education classes and educate a lot of the moms and the parents on like some proactive pelvic floor tips or like what they can do in therapy afterwards. And, you know, just really kind of empower them like this is available. So if you have trouble, we're here. And then the medical director said, well, you know, I don't even think that pregnant and postpartum women really have these issues, which is incorrect. And we don't want to scare them.

And I said, it's not our job to quote unquote protect them. I don't think women need protection. I think they need information. And so again, it's this gaslighting of like, well, we don't want to make them worry more. I'm like, that's not for you to decide. If you're not comfortable with it, well then send them to somebody else who is, but that doesn't mean we avoid the conversations or, you know, not give the information to quote unquote protect them when it really is damaging in some ways. Yeah.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. You know, just because the conversation might be difficult to have doesn't mean that it's not worth having. Right. So I know you alluded to this a little bit earlier, but what are the implications of women's pelvic floor issues being dismissed and women just becoming habituated to this idea that these problems are just, quote unquote, part of being a woman? You know, so what happens when pelvic floor issues go untreated long term? You know, what does that mean for someone's health and quality of life?

So some of this is anecdotal from what I've seen in my clinics and some of it is supported in the research, but there are millions of dollars a year spent on incontinence products. I mean, I think that it's, you know, in the tens of millions because people are not getting treated early enough and then their symptoms are getting so bad. So 50% of women over the age of 65 leak urine. So one out of two people.

And then it's one of the number one risk factors for landing in a nursing home later in life. So you can see how something as small as a little leak when you laugh or jump in your 30s and 40s can lead to something more severe later in life if it goes untreated.

Additionally, one in three women will experience pelvic pain at some point in their life, which can affect what they wear. It can affect how long they can sit. I've had patients go on disability because their job requires commuting or sitting at a desk, and they're literally not able to function at work because of these impairments.

Women leave the workforce. You know, I think it's something, some of the stats are between 20 and 40% leave the workforce in the first five years of motherhood. Some of that could because of childcare, but some of it is, you know, people are going back to work within two weeks of giving birth and they're literally still bleeding from their vaginas. So there's just no postpartum care and maternal health coverage or leave, maternity leave for people after birth, which is one of the biggest physical transformations you'll experience. And,

And then also it can impact your sexual health in your life. You know, if you're having pain with sex, which one in three to one in four women will have, it may affect your relationships. You may not be able to get pregnant without intervention. So, you know, I've had people who have birth trauma and physical trauma and they don't want to have more kids because it's been so impactful in their lives.

And then we even see into menopause, there's a higher risk of urinary tract infections, there's sexual pain, there's urinary leakage. So, you know, at all of these different stages, it's just like we can see the ripple effects of these impairments and dysfunctions.

And how it can affect work. It can affect the ability to exercise. It can affect sexual relations. It can affect your health in bigger ways. And there's a financial burden. That's why it's so difficult for me to understand why this feels like David versus Goliath. I feel like we're just like the little ones, like, please, we're fighting this big healthcare system to better improve the care of women. But particularly for me, pelvic healthcare for women is

When just the impacts are so vast and yet I feel like they're just being kind of swept under the rug and ignored. Yeah, so very wide ranging impacts. And once again, you know, if we just invested a little bit in trying to address this earlier on in life, we can actually save a lot of money and health care expenses later on before these things become bigger issues. But yeah, trying to get people to adopt that approach.

it is always a mountain to climb for some reason. So let's say a woman goes to her doctor and they tell her that her pelvic pain or leakage is basically just part of being a woman or it's just part of aging or part of the postpartum phase or going through menopause. What should she do? Who can you turn to if you're not getting help through the traditional medical establishment?

Well, the good news is that in every state in the United States, you can see a pelvic floor physical therapist without a referral from a physician. You know, I would go on Google. I would ask your friends. There's a PT locator online where you can type in your zip code and look for pelvic health therapists in your area. And you can even do virtual consults with someone in your state. And I would get an evaluation. You may need a physician's approval to continue care if it's required.

But you can at least get an evaluation to know like, is my pelvic floor a component? And the great thing about modern day medicine is there are a menu of options. It can be reading a book. It can be doing an online exercise program at home. It can be going to classes. It can be seeing an in-person therapist.

So there's always a place to start. The second thing is I would find a new medical provider because I think that, and oftentimes we as physical therapists know who the kind of pelvic floor friendly physicians are who are open and, you know, there's no negative side effects to therapy. It's like if you have back pain and you go to see a physical therapist, that's very normal, but yet you have pelvic pain or pelvic floor dysfunction and it's like, oh, that's not necessary. Just deal with it.

I think if we really understand what we can do from a muscle and strengthening and conditioning perspective, to your point, issues can be addressed sooner. And it's unfortunate because I think it takes a lot of courage to ask our medical providers like, hey, I'm leaking a little bit or sex is uncomfortable. It takes so much courage to have that conversation and then to be shut down can often stop somebody in their tracks and stop pursuing treatment or help when they really deserve that care.

Yeah. You know, as I've said before, many times on this show, many people find it easier to have sex than to talk about it. And that includes talking about it with your partner or talking about it with your doctor. Like the communication piece is so essential, but it is so, so hard for so many people.

It is. And, you know, the good news is, is that this is what pelvic floor therapists do all day. I, you know, oftentimes they're like, this is like a therapy session because we're in private four walls. Everything we talk about is confidential. We are comfortable, you know, I would speak for myself, at least having these really comfortable

Yeah, I love that.

Now, we've been talking a bit about problems with the way that many doctors address pelvic floor issues, but there's also this huge women's health industry that's contributing to the issue as well. You know, they're selling women all kinds of trendy products designed to make their vaginas look, smell, or taste better. Not necessarily to function better, though.

They're selling designer vaginas, if you will. And on the one hand, you know, it's great that we're talking more openly about vulvas and vaginas than we were in the past, but many have raised concerns about the plethora of trendy products that are hitting store shelves. So what are your thoughts on this whole big vulva industry and its implications for pelvic health?

You know, I think, unfortunately, it has become a big industry. And myself, more than anyone else, loves bringing vulvas and vaginas in the spotlight. And again, to your point, you would think more attention, the better. But it unfortunately has moved into this wellness space that isn't true healthcare. And we're talking a lot about vulvas and vaginas, but we're not talking about the pelvic floor, which is really the functional part of the system. And again, it provides everything from core stability and

strength to supporting your organs to normal bowel and bladder health and sexual health. And so I think that it's a little bit unfortunate. It's gone so far in one direction where there's like a deodorant, a spray, a lotion, a scent, a cleanser for everything. When one, you really only need water to rinse your vulva. If you want to use a mild cleanser, you can use something specific for the

But water's fine. Secondly, you don't need to clean inside of the vagina. So it really is internally a self-cleaning oven. There are certain bacteria in the area that keep it really healthy and introducing anything outside of that, outside of, of course, like anything sexual or, you know, a menstrual hygiene product, then, you know, you really don't need to clean the inside.

And lastly, we're focused so much on what these things look like and smell like, but they need to function well. They need to hold in your pee and poo. They need to relax for sexual activity and then engage for orgasms and support your pelvic organs. And I always say it's like putting a fancy chandelier in the house that doesn't even have walls. We really want to bring it back to the function. And unfortunately, there is no quick fix for some pelvic health problems. Like

Exercise takes time. It takes consistency. It takes work. But the benefits are huge. And I think we all just want a really quick fix. But these problems didn't happen overnight. So it does take a little bit of investment from yourself and of your time to really heal and make progress in this area. But it is so worth it.

Yeah, I think you're so right that our priorities are a little bit messed up here when it comes to, you know, the cosmetic side of our genitals and having them look and smell and taste their best. But if they're not functional, then what do you have, right? So we need to focus first on health and function. And then, you know, if you want to pursue some cosmetic things on top of that, like

I'm not here to judge. Like people can make their own choices, but I think people should be aware that, you know, a lot of these products that are sold are unnecessary and sometimes can actually cause more problems than they solve. Right. Well, and that's one thing that I've realized too, is I'll have patients come in. They're like, tell me about this jade egg that I can put in my vagina or these,

you know, Kegel balls or weights. And I'm like, these things have their place, but one, they should be integrated into exercise. And two, you're not going to strengthen your vagina by holding a ball in for hours. Like just like you don't strengthen a bicep for holding a dumbbell with an bent elbow for hours. Like you need this muscle to be able to contract, but also relax and respond and be coordinated. And so I think it's really understanding that this is a muscle and it's not, again, there's no quick fix and

And if it's really not done under the training or guidance of somebody who is a specialist in the area, that it can cause more harm. And, and in the book, I really walk through like, how does this part of your body relate to peeing or pooping or sex? So people can just get that basic education and understanding we were never given. And then it walks you through, okay, if you're experiencing sexual pain, here are some things you can do. If it's

It's pain with insertion. Here's what you can do. Pain with deeper penetration. Here's what you can do. But really giving them a guide, like a platform is what's normal. And then if you're experiencing something, here's what you can do about it. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing all of this, Sarah. I'm looking forward to continuing our conversation in the next episode and talking about how to optimize your pelvic health to improve your sex life. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work and to get a copy of your new book?

Thank you so much for having me. So I am on social media as the Vagina Whisperer on Instagram and TikTok as the Vag Whisperer because TikTok doesn't like the word vagina. My website is thevaginawisperer.com. You'll see a link on there to order my book, Floored. Depending on when you're listening to this, it releases June 10th, 2025. So you can pre-order it. Everybody who pre-orders it will get 30 days of pelvic floor workouts from my fitness platform, which I think is really cool because I want this

to not only kind of give you information, but to really give you tools to optimize your pelvic health at any age and stage. So check it out. And I have a ton of blog posts on there about, you know, painful intercourse and sexual health and painful periods and peeing and pooping and really kind of like a platform for just people to get information because I think there's so little of it out there. So it's thevaginawhisper.com. You can check it out.

Well, thank you. And I'll be sure to include thanks to all of that in the show notes. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple podcasts, please consider becoming a sex and psychology premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.