Episode 402: The Secret To Finding A Compatible Partner
35:20 Share

You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. The way that many of us are approaching romantic relationships is all wrong, especially if our goal is to find lasting love with someone who's going to be a compatible partner for us.

The issue is really in terms of what we're prioritizing, and all too often, we're not prioritizing the things that really matter. Heck, we're not even talking about these things at all. Here's one example: money management or financial values. For instance, how do you feel about debt? What would you eliminate from your life if you suddenly had to live on a tighter budget? What's the maximum amount of money that you would be comfortable with each partner spending without consulting the other?

Would you be willing to help a friend or family member financially if they needed it? And would you expect them to pay it back? Is saving for retirement important for you? These are just a few examples of questions around one topic that have the potential to become a major sticking point in a relationship. Yet they're things that people rarely talk about before making long-term commitments.

So in today's show, we're going to talk about why it's vital to discuss practical issues like these early on, how to do it, and by talking about the practicalities can actually help make for a more passionate and fulfilling relationship in the long run.

My guest today is Lindsay Jill Roth, an award-winning television and live events producer who has created and developed a wide variety of programming globally. She is also author of the new book, "Bromances and Practicalities," which is based on a set of 250 research-backed questions designed to help you identify red flags and non-negotiables, assess compatibility with a potential or current partner, initiate tricky conversations with grace, and build a stronger, deeper relationship.

This is going to be another fascinating episode. Stick around and we're going to jump in right after the break. Are you looking for a space that celebrates diverse perspectives, explores new frontiers, and brings all of your favorite people together? The annual Sexological Conference, hosted by Sexual Health Alliance, is where sexuality leaders gather. This conference connects you with world-class experts, leading sexuality companies, and a community of like-minded, passionate, and welcoming professionals.

You'll find your people at the Sexual Health Alliance Annual Sexological Conference this October. Get your ticket to be inspired, educated, and empowered. Note that this conference is open to anyone and everyone. Head over to sexualhealthalliance.com, select the Annual Sexological Conference page, and save your spot today. Hi, Lindsay, and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.

So you have a new book out called Romances and Practicalities. And in this book, you say that the sexiest kind of romance is also the most practical. And that's going to sound kind of counterintuitive to a lot of people because when we think about what makes a romance sexy, we often gravitate toward that initial chemistry that we have with another person. You know, those intense and inexplicable feelings of passion that we feel in the earliest stages of our

relationship that are based on an intense physical attraction. However, just because we feel an intense attraction to someone doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be a suitable long-term partner for us. I mean, I know from personal experience that some of the people that I felt intense passion for in the past would have been absolute train wrecks if we tried to make a go of it. Yeah,

Yet so many people prioritize that initial chemistry above all else and then have a relationship that ends in disaster. So let's start there. What do you think people are doing wrong when it comes to selecting their romantic partners?

So I think people think that that initial spark, that initial electricity, the need to like make out with someone and touch them and like rip off all their clothes is going to sustain them through life. And that that is always going to be there. And if you have that, that's,

that electricity is going to kind of override other problems that you might have, right? Because you have chemistry. So if you have chemistry, you can get through life together, right?

Right. Wrong. So wrong. And so when I came up with this concept that the sexiest kind of romance, and this is really the thesis of the book, is one that's based in practicality, I know I initially got a lot of eye rolls because, I mean, think about it this way. You know when you have a beautiful conversation with someone and it's so electrifying and you leave and you just

You feel so good and you feel heard and you feel listened to. And I don't only mean with a romantic partner. It can be with a friend. It could be in a call with a colleague. It could be someone on an airplane, but that just stays with you and make you makes you feel so good about yourself. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about emotional intimacy achieved through getting to know someone really honestly.

Yeah. So going beyond that initial physical attraction, which we know tends to be fleeting, like those early feelings of passion are very exciting, but they typically, yeah, they're great. They just don't last super long. And then at some point you got to find a way to make the relationship work once the passion ebbs.

Now, I'm not saying, by the way, that if there is absolutely no physical spark, if you have never wanted to kiss someone, you know, just having intimate conversations might not actually make you want to kiss them. But what it does is bring you together emotionally to potentially unearth those kind of attractions, which we usually reserve for physical things.

Yeah, and I think you're totally right. I mean, I think the assumption that a lot of people have is that passion comes first and then intimacy comes later. But we also know that it can go the other way around and you can build an intimate connection with somebody first and then the passion follows. So this is just another pathway or way of stimulating those feelings of passion that we all want.

but maybe doing it from a place where you've already built that kind of basis or connection that's going to help when it comes to sustaining long-term love. And that's what it's about, by the way. It's about long-term love and there's no judgment here, right? So like this book, my theories, your theories, this is not about marriage. That is not what we are talking about. Whatever long-term successful, healthy relationship means to you is good for me.

Yes, and I agree with that. You know, marriage is not for everyone. There are lots of different ways to structure a relationship. Some people want to have more than one partner, right? So polyamory or some type of open relationship can be part of the equation for some people as well. It's all about finding the type of relationship structure that works for you. And how do you find that, Justin? Yeah.

How do you find it? By communicating about your wants and needs, but also by understanding your wants and needs and really looking at yourself and saying, okay, I have a list of all these things that are on my checklist. But actually, like, where does that come from? Why am I holding on to this checklist? And do I need even half of these things?

Yeah, and I know that's where sometimes people, I think, can go wrong is that we've got this big checklist of things we want. It's the shopping list approach to love. And sometimes we're overly ambitious in terms of what we put on that list. Well, right. And we're also overly confident about what we bring to the table. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah.

Now, you know, I think ultimately one of the reasons that a lot of people are approaching relationships the wrong way is because what they've learned about love isn't entirely true. You know, we hear over and over again, for example, that quote unquote, all you need is love or love conquers all. And I think that kind of gives the impression that you can make a relationship work with anyone. And I don't think that that's true. You know, there are some people that we might love very much who just fundamentally are not a good match for us.

Life compatibility is very different from this love conquers all. I believe in love and I believe in life love. But yes, to spend your life with someone is more than just love.

we can rely on that love conquers all. Right. And I think the issue with love conquers all is that, you know, we also hear that opposites attract. And meeting someone who is your opposite can be very exciting. You know, as a personal example, I've met some people who are these very free spirits. You know, they're super spontaneous, as in like, let's drop everything and go on a trip. And

And that's not who I am at all. I got shit to do. I need to play on my fun. It sounds amazing though, doesn't it? It sounds romantic. Right. And it is really romantic. And there's something seductive about that to me to be with somebody who's really spontaneous. But being with them

is exciting and good in small doses, but I find that it quickly becomes exhausting. Love is not enough to make up for that for me. But I think that's a really hard lesson to learn, isn't it? We need to recognize that somebody who is opposite of us in terms of our core values, maybe that makes for a fun and exciting fling. But in the long run, those differences are often the things that push the relationship to the brink.

I had many different kind of loves in my life as I was exploring who I was, as I was dating different people, as I was in different locations. And

you know, what I can safely say, which makes sense once you read this book and as you hear more about me, but for me, the best kind of love was the love where I felt safe. And it's the quieter love. It's not the like movie explosion, fountains changing colors behind me, like,

Like no proposals on a baseball field in front of thousands and thousands of people. For me, love is about feeling safe. I didn't feel when I was with people where it was more explosive, that didn't feed my healthy love bucket. That for me and realizing that.

And knowing that that's what I needed is a big deal when you're trying to find someone to spend your life with. So that volatile relationship, while it might feed you, wasn't going to feed me. You know, for you, that spontaneity might have kept you on edge. And that's not a way to live your life.

Yeah, and I think you're getting at something that's really important here in terms of how we approach relationships, which is that much of the time we're focusing on what we want in somebody else without attending to what is it that we really need and do we really know ourselves?

And I think, you know, one of the reasons that a lot of people find themselves in a cycle or pattern of going for the quote unquote wrong partner over and over again is that they're not really in touch or in tune with what they really need. And, you know, as you mentioned, feeling safe in a relationship is what works for you. And I think that's also something that's really important to a lot of other people. But for whatever reason, they don't prioritize that in their search for love and instead, you know, often find themselves

pulled toward those more explosive dynamics, maybe because that's what's in every Hollywood movie in terms of, you know, kind of how we learn that relationships are formed or cultivated and that you need those big, grand, romantic gestures and that excitement and intensity. But having that feeling of safety is actually the thing that works better for a lot of people.

Well, here's the thing. I mean, what I think most people don't realize is like to learn how to read, to learn how to ride a bike, all those things you're taught.

Right. Learning how to love, learning how to be a partner, learning how to be a good person to yourself. That's not taught. You know, that's modeled for you. You get what you're given in that situation. And a lot of times it's healthy and a lot of times it's not healthy. And it sounds so cliche to say, well, go back to your childhood and examine your childhood. But in fact, it's not.

You know, we don't often think that that's what we need to do to find our default. You know, if you're an explosive person or gravitating toward a more explosive person, you know, is that because that was how your family operated? Is that really what you want? And thing is,

This is a great segue, actually. If you don't mind, I'll explain a little bit about my book. But so romances and practicalities is two things that I've pushed together. It is a beautiful love story, a transatlantic love story. That's my story. Now, I'd like to say that my story can carry us all through this book, but

But no, it cannot. It's interesting, but it's not that interesting. So I interviewed more than 100 people in this book, people who have done a system that I've created to help people achieve lasting love, experts like Justin here who can validate really what I've created to help people build. So this is my story meets a system of

a questions-based system that I've created to help people learn what they're looking for in relationships and achieve healthy communication and love, whether they're on a cusp moment, like deciding whether to move in with someone or get engaged or get married, or you've been together for a long time and you've stopped asking each other questions because life gets busy.

And we don't always know what to ask. So to go back to what we were originally saying, sometimes you don't know what to ask yourself. Sometimes you don't really know how to grow as a person because you don't know what you need to be exploring. So 250 questions, it's that high number because we're all different.

We all need our own on-ramps to explore our histories, our thoughts on money, our thoughts on sex, our thoughts on religion, our thoughts on partnership. And this book is really there to help you do that at whatever stage you're at.

Yeah. And I think, you know, 250 questions is a lot and it might sound a little overwhelming to some people, but it doesn't mean that you have to ask all 250 questions at once, right? You know, this is a process that can unfold over a long period of time. And maybe even before you start to ask somebody else these questions, you start by asking yourself the very same questions, get to know yourself first and understand

Who you are, what you want, what you need. And kind of once you've gotten on the same page with yourself, then you can start by asking these questions to someone else. Because it's easier to revisit things once you've had a conversation, right? So like once you know how you feel about something, to then have a conversation with someone about it, you know, you're not trying to find a right and wrong, right?

Right. Because then someone's right and someone's wrong. You're really looking to have a discussion with someone you care about, about their thoughts on different things. And at that point, great. If that solves whatever you're looking to solve, great. If you're not there in your relationship yet, and this issue comes up three, four, five years down the line, I guarantee you it's easier to revisit a conversation you've had before than have to sort of knock on someone's door and say, well,

I'm unhappy about our sex life. We've never talked about it before. Can we have a conversation? God, that's daunting. Yeah. You know, and I think that's true with so many different things in a relationship is that we don't talk about them until they become a problem or an issue. And, you know, that's really the big thing here is that when it comes to something like, say, money or sex, if you just enter into a relationship and things are going down the road, and then at some point there's a financial struggle,

Or at some point in your sex life, you just aren't connecting with your partner anymore. Then you got to talk about it for the first time. It's so much harder to do it when you haven't had any previous conversation or discussion about it because you don't know where the other person is coming from. You haven't normalized these conversations before. So starting to have those conversations sooner is really the key toward making things go a lot smoother later on.

And then being able to visit them early and often, right? Have financial check-ins, have check-ins about your sex lives, have check-ins about family members and how much time you're dedicating to them versus yourselves. This is not to bog down people with conversation, but it's one of those things where, frankly, if it's in your repertoire, then it's not actually an issue to talk about it. Yeah, so true.

Traditional sex education often leaves LGBTQ plus people out completely. As a result, they often have to learn about sex all on their own. So what if I told you there was a place where you could get pleasure-based sex ed from the experts that's tailored to people of all genders and sexualities? Allow me to introduce you to Beducated. Beducated is where toe-curling pleasure meets expert-backed education. They have more than 100 courses that can help you to enhance intimacy and spice up your sex life.

VEGECATED's courses cover a wide range of topics, from gender identity to queer intimacy, providing accessible, inclusive, shame-free resources for individuals seeking to deepen their understanding of sex, sexuality, and sexual satisfaction. For example, check out their course on Male-to-male Pleasure, which explores what you need to know about sexual intimacy and erotic stimulation between men. All of their courses are structured to be approachable for beginners while still enriching for those with more experience.

Whether you're looking to enjoy sex more, master some spicy new techniques, improve your communication skills, or go on a journey of self-discovery and sexual empowerment, Beducated can help you to level up your intimate life. Get 50% off the yearly pass by using my last name, Lay Miller, as the coupon code. Try Beducated risk-free with a 14-day money-back guarantee. Check the show notes for the link and be sure to use my last name to get your discount.

Now, there are so many different practicalities that are important to discuss in relationships. And one of the big ones that we've mentioned is money. And people often don't talk about money or finances before jumping into a relationship because talking about money isn't sexy. And for many people can feel kind of awkward and uncomfortable, but it's really important to talk about. So why do we need to have a conversation about money and finances? And how do you navigate that?

So I'm going to start with the end answer to your question before going to the beginning. And I'm going to tell a little bit of a story. So my husband, who I'm now married to, but this man called the Brit, who I tell the story about,

In the book, he's a finance guy and I am not. It's not my natural default to really delve deep about money and spreadsheets and numbers and finances. Though for certain aspects of my work, I am spreadsheeting and budgeting and all of that stuff, but he's the keeper of those things. And to what you said before, talking about money is not sexy. Actually, for us, it's such a turn-on to me

to go in front of my husband's computer, to see all of our spreadsheets out there and have him include me in our decision-making, in our planning, in our budgeting, and really to, I feel supported by him. I'm not naturally as good at this as he is at all. He could easily

make these decisions and I'm the type to hand that over to him and let it happen. That's not healthy for me. That's not healthy for him. So I feel really

validated and taken care of. And he doesn't make me feel stupid if I ask questions about this mortgage here, that finances there, this investment here. For me, it shows me that he's willing to take care of us, not financially, but take care of us financially because he's including me in this process and there's a transparency there. So

The end result for people is to get to a point where you're both comfortable with how your system works. You don't always have to share bank accounts. You can certainly keep things separate. I have a great conversation in the book with Susie Orman about finances and another financial expert, Chelsea Fagan, and they offer different opinions but show why they're both valid. And as a reader of the book, you can see what works best for you. Now,

Thing about money. Money is not just how much money you make. A lot of people entering into a relationship are hesitant to have that conversation of the how much, what's your number? Right?

That's like the least important thing that actually you need to have a conversation about because it's what are your thoughts on money? What are your theories on money? How is money modeled for you growing up? Is there a number that it could be $50, it could be $5,000, it could be $50,000 where we need to communicate?

about spending if we share our finances. Frankly, so many things come down to money that you don't even think about, right? So if one of you is making coffee every morning because you don't believe it's financially savvy to go to Starbucks and pay X amount of money on a coffee, but the other one so looks forward to that ritual and thinks that that's the best money spent all day, you're gonna need to have coffee

a financial discussion. You know, if you have kids, that comes down to money. If you want to go on holiday together, that comes down to money. So really understanding your partner's views and perception of money. Money is not really even the word that you need to use for it, right? Finances, financial opinions, all that kind of stuff. These are things that are going to come up every single day

in your partnership once you take it to a certain level. So while it seems daunting, it's like one of those that where if you rip the bandaid off early, it's something that's going to serve your relationship forever. And if it's something that's not scary to talk about, I'm not saying it won't always be scary, but if it's something that is, you know, in your vocabulary with each other, then it's going to take away a lot of future stress. Does that make sense?

Oh, it makes total sense to me. And I think you're so right that the conversation to have here isn't like, all right, what's in your bank account and how much do you have in your retirement accounts? Like that doesn't really matter. What matters more is the emotions that we attach to our money. And what is our psychological history with money? You know, there can be some people who have great finances, tons of money, but they're

they always feel like they're strapped for cash because maybe they grew up in an environment or in a family where money was always tight. And so for them, that money that they have in the bank is kind of like their security blanket and they really don't feel like they can touch it. And so just because

It sounds like a lot of money to you doesn't mean that they're going to want to go out and spend lavishly. And, you know, they might still be the type of person who is looking for sales and, you know, coupons and other things like that. And so you really need to understand who the other person is psychologically and emotionally when it comes to money, because we're all very different people in that way.

And their thoughts on things like debt. Do you want to have a mortgage? Do you want to rent? Do you want to lease cars? Do you want to own cars? Do you want to finance children's education someday? Or do you not want to do that? Do you want to take out loans? Like, where do you stand on it? There are a couple of great stories in the book, right? There was one where a couple was really open with me about education.

their differences on loaning money to family members. And that really threw this couple for a loop, really threw them for a loop because there was a family member, one of them considered that he needed it, one thought he didn't need it.

One wanted to lend, one didn't, and it caused issues, right? Then there's the question of I'm dating someone and we grew up very differently. One of us came from money and sees money like, well, whatever. One of us now has money, but came from nothing and sees every penny as a gift, right?

And one wants to go to a Michelin starred restaurant regularly. And the other that's like, so it's not about, should we spend tonight on the Michelin star restaurant? This is theory, belief, security. And the earlier you kind of get this out, the better. I'm not saying date one, you should be like, let's lay all our financial cards. Well, there are other date one questions you can ask, but this is something that should come sooner rather than later.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think another reason that it's important is because it can also help to fend off ending up in a situation where somebody has committed essentially financial infidelity, right? So when we look at how people define infidelity in relationships, yeah, more often than not, they're talking about doing something sexual with another person.

But a lot of people also consider spending money in a way that wasn't approved by the other partner to be a form of infidelity too. Like, for example, you know, I'm thinking of this one study where they gave people this whole checklist of items and they said, which ones do you think constitute infidelity or not? There wasn't 100% agreement on anything, but one of the items on there was giving somebody else $5. And there's a certain number of people, it wasn't a lot, but it was like 5% to 10% who were like, that would be infidelity. Like,

And initially when I first looked at that, I'm like, what the heck? Giving somebody else $5, how is that infidelity? But the more that I started to understand this idea of financial infidelity, the more that that made sense to me. That for some people, even a small amount of money and giving that to someone else outside of the relationship is like a big red flag to them because maybe they came from a place where money was always tight and they have a lot of

important financial concerns for them. So yeah, everybody's different and you kind of need to get on the same page about that. Forget the like financial infidelity. It could almost, the sentence could be, what is X infidelity to you? Like what is infidelity to you, right? And that's such an interesting point that you bring up because what is acceptable to you in any realm, right? Might not be acceptable to me, but there's no way to know that.

unless you talk about it. And again, to go back to what we were saying right at the beginning, these conversations don't have to be like when you were sat on the couch by your parents when you got in trouble when you were growing up. They don't have to be doomsday conversations. They can be clever and creative and you can have them when you're going on a walk or laying in bed or waiting for a movie to start or over ice cream. These are things that actually

can be beautiful conversations depending on when and where you have them. And they don't have to be such reactive, high stakes things that actually can be really sexy once you have these conversations.

And they can also be just fun ways of getting to know somebody else. You know, my partner and I often ask each other the question of, you know, if you won the lottery, like, what would you do with the money right now? And, you know, our answers to that question have actually changed a lot over the years because I think we've changed a lot as people and our financial and other personal values have changed too. And, you know, maybe in the past, we would have wanted to buy a super yacht and, you know, houses all over the world, but... There's a whole super yacht.

story in my book, an entire super yacht story. You just hit on it. It's all about the super yacht. But we're not really super yacht people anymore. And we have a lot of different ideas about what we'd want to do. And now it's more about, all right, well, if we want it, what's my legacy? And what do I actually want to do with this money? And how can I use it in some ways to leave the world a better place? And so it's like, we're different people than we were before. And so-

To your point, like you might be the one who's like focusing on altruism and he might be the one that's like, but I still want a super yacht. But that just means that you guys need to talk.

Yeah. And I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to those questions. It's a way of just sort of understanding each other and where you are at this stage of life. And it's important to have these conversations on an ongoing basis because, you know, people change in different ways over time. And, you know, for example, when it comes to something like

money as you and your partner accumulate more money in your relationship. One of you might come to feel more secure and think that, all right, let's go out and splurge and now we can take like a lavish vacation or we can upgrade to first class when we take this flight. Whereas the other partner might be like,

No, like we're not going to have enough money saved for retirement and they might just be in a very different place. So yeah, it's kind of understanding where each of you are at this moment in time and recognizing that this is going to change and you might change in different directions.

There's a story in my book actually to that one exactly where this couple started on the same equal playing field in terms of what they were making. And one did slightly better and one started wanting to spend on more luxurious travel items like sitting in a higher class, renting a nicer rental car and the other...

And it really alerted them that they were moving in different directions in terms of where they wanted their lives to go. And again, neither was right and neither was wrong, but it was that flag of, okay, there's movement here. How do we negotiate that?

Yeah. And that's the thing. And I think sometimes when we ask these questions, we won't get the response that we want. We might not like the response, but it's all information and it's what we decide to do with that information. And so if you recognize that there is a difference in your values, it's like, all right, how are we going to navigate this? And it doesn't mean that

like you said, one person is wrong and they have to change, right? Because it's okay for different people to have different views, different perspectives on this, but you have to find some way to compromise, negotiate, find a solution that's going to make people happy.

When I was answering these questions with my husband, because they are organic, they came out of my relationship and need for understanding and need for clarity. There were certain things that I went in

hell bent on, right? Like this is my view. This is not going to change. This is something that I am standing up for. And frankly, there are a few things on that list, if you want to call it a list, where I realized I was holding on to something either that was from my past or a family belief or not something that I had real ownership of that I could happily let go of in ways that I never thought I could because

because either they didn't matter as much as I thought they did or with the right partner, I didn't have to hold on to that view. And then there were others that were like, wow, I really do believe so strongly in this. But when you're with someone who you're comfortable speaking about anything and everything, it's easy to let your guard down and say, wow, I was holding on to that and I no longer need to.

Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. You know, sometimes some of the things that we think are going to be absolute deal breakers turns out that they aren't. And that's where sometimes the shopping lists can box us in a little bit too much. You can shock yourself with the things that are on that list that you don't actually need, right? Yep.

And so we got to think about, you know, where does all that stuff on the shopping list come from in the first place? Do we actually need that? And if we're with the right partner, do we need all of these things? Do we need to check all these boxes? Sometimes we don't. And by the way, if you're with the wrong partner,

don't just let them go because you want it, whatever it means to you. Like they're on there for a reason. So you need to explore them. And if you're like, you know what, this is a really big deal to me, but I just want that big diamond ring. So I'm going to, you know, I'm going to let this go when it really is something important to you. If you're willing to do that, then you also need to realize that you're probably not the right person.

Yep, so true. Well, this has been an amazing conversation, Lindsay. I'm looking forward to continuing our discussion in the next episode and talking further about romances and practicalities.

Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work and get a copy of your new book? Yes. Thank you so much for having me. That went by in a flash. So I can be found on at Lindsay Jill Roth on all social channels and my book romances and practicalities can be bought wherever books can be bought. Oh, great. Thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.