You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lehmiller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. How many people have you had sex with before? In other words, what's your body count?
That's the topic of today's episode. Now, I know the term body count is one that a lot of people don't really love. So one of the things we're going to talk about is whether there might be a better term we could use that sounds a little less, well, dark. But we're also going to dive into the stats and data. So what is the average number of sexual partners that people report having? And how does this differ by gender?
We're also going to explore why people seem to place so much emphasis on body count and whether it really matters. I mean, do you really need to know your partner's body count in the first place? A lot of people think that this is a window into someone else's sexual competence or their sexual health status, but it turns out that there are some better questions we could ask instead if we really wanted to get a beat on this information. So we'll tell you some questions that might be better to ask instead of body count.
I am joined by Ashley Weller. She is a human sexuality and health psychology professor at Chapman University in Southern California. Ashley also works in mental health clinical research and has more than 15 years of experience in sex education. She also has a podcast called What's Your Position, which tackles issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, life, and love from a comedic yet educational point of view. This is going to be another fascinating episode that you won't want to miss. ♪
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Hi, Ashley, and welcome back to the show. Hello. Thank you, as always, for having me. It's always a pleasure to have you here. So today's episode is all about the topic of body count. But before we get into it, let's acknowledge the elephant in the room, which is that a lot of people really don't like the term body count. And I get it.
you know, instead of the number of people you had sex with, it sounds kind of like the number of people you murdered. You know, it also feels kind of like cold and impersonal, like your previous partners weren't really people, they were just bodies. And on top of that, it doesn't really sound very sex positive.
So, yeah, it's a loaded term. So I'm curious for your thoughts on this and whether you want to propose a better phrase for our sexual vernacular than body count. There is actually quite a bit of sexual vernacular that I would like to rephrase, including body count and losing virginity. I'm all for experience. And I like to talk about sex as opportunity.
a learning opportunity, a time for playfulness, a time to explore oneself and one's own desire. So I would like to celebrate pleasure and celebrate how you show up in a relationship versus how many people have shown up before you.
I kind of like the idea of saying your sexual repertoire or your sexual resume or your sexual experience. I also really find it frustrating because when we talk about quote unquote body counts and
It's such a heteronormative vaginal penetration confluence of words, and we're really eliminating so many other behaviors. So really learning how to define what sexual behavior is to you, whether you are putting genitals in your mouth, whether you are engaging in anal sex, vaginal penetration, I think all of these things need to be a bit clearer.
Yeah, and you know, what people are asking when they're asking about body count is a little bit unclear because, you know, lots of different things can count as sex. You know, people don't necessarily agree on what sex is. So when we're talking about body count, what are you even counting there in terms of like number of previous partners? But I do like the term sexual repertoire. And on a little sexual aside, like there are lots of interesting things
things in our language in terms of how we talk about sex, but not just in our language and other languages as well. So something I was thinking about before the show was that there's this term in French called la petite mort, which literally means the little death. And it's a term that's used to refer to orgasm. And it's like, holy shit, like there are some people who
call orgasm like a little death. And I'm like, that's really interesting, really fascinating. But also, when you think about the way that they're actually using it and what they're meaning behind it, it's sort of like this reset of consciousness that happens when you reach orgasm. And so it's not literally like you're dying when you have sex, but
The French have such a beautiful way with language too. When I hear la petite noir, I think, yeah, I think, oh my God, I've died and come back. Like I've had the best moment of my life and now I get to relive it again. I think that we living here in this country, we really assign such negative connotation to sex. And that's really where this idea of the body count I feel like is derived from is a place of toxic masculinity and purity culture. That whole
of the loss of virginity or taking someone's virginity, someone's body count. And when you say it for a man in a heteronormative way, it's how many bodies have you stacked, right? And it is this horrible visual. Or for women, how many bodies lay in your wake, right? How many have you conquered or how many are underneath you? And it's just this...
really gross way of kind of perpetuating the idea that somebody has experience in sex and the insecurity of the other person who maybe doesn't have that experience and feels the need to talk down to the person who does.
Yeah, totally. So let's talk a little bit about stats. You know, people are often very curious about what the average number of partners that other people have had is. I've had listeners and readers who have asked this with some frequency, and I brought my data with me, but I'm curious, you know, to your knowledge, what's the average body count or average sexual repertoire?
The average sexual repertoire, according to the CDC, I did some digging, it is so large. So it really...
from 6.1 lifetime partners in heterosexual men to 4.2 in heterosexual women. However, if you are a stats person, you know that the median data doesn't always represent the mean data
And the mean data actually says that heterosexual women report around nine partners in their life and heterosexual men report around 15. Now, when we look at LGBTQ communities, the numbers are a little higher. And we see that on average, around one third of gay men report between zero to nine partners in their lifetime.
a one-third report between 10 and 49, which, holy shit, what a gap, and about 25% report over 50 partners. But please remember, we're not asking what kind of sex they're having. We just said, how many sexual partners have you had in your lifetime?
Yeah, I mean, it's a tough question to really answer because the way it's been asked is far from perfect, right? And oftentimes, previously in surveys, it was about with how many partners have you had penile vaginal intercourse with? And it's like, that is just one specific type of sex. And if you're surveying gay men, like you're not going to find a whole lot of information for most of them.
But yeah, it's a problematic thing to study just because, again, it goes back to what is even the definition of sex when you're talking about something like sexual repertoire. But yeah, the numbers that you're reporting are in line with what I've seen elsewhere from nationally representative data. And again, you're right that the mean and the median are two different things. Like the mean is the average and
And that tells you one piece of data. The median is the 50th percentile. That tells you a different piece of data. Those things are often different because with an average, if you have even just a couple of people who are saying, I've had a thousand or five thousand partners, that brings the average way up. And so, you know, that's why averages and medians often tell different pieces of information. But
It's a tough question to answer, but we do see consistently in the data men are reporting more sexual partners than women. But that gender gap actually seems to have shrunk a little bit over the last 20 years, which is kind of interesting, with men reporting slightly fewer partners and women reporting slightly more, which I think is interesting in its own right.
But I think it's worth talking about, like, why is there this consistent gender difference in sexual repertoire with men reporting like twice as many partners as women in many studies? You know, the math isn't quite mathing. What's going on there?
The math isn't mathing, right? And I think that I know the answer. And the answer is toxic masculinity and purity culture. So when we are talking to young women about sex and experience and sexual partners, we're telling them to save themselves. We're telling them that their virginity is a flower. I got told when I was in church, when I was growing up, we stood in a circle in my youth group
there was like 16 of us and we passed around a flower. Anytime it went to a girl, she was supposed to hand it to the next person and not do anything with it. Anytime that flower got passed to a boy, he was supposed to pluck a petal from the flower. And by the time it got back to you, your rose looked, I mean, I have a sad rose because I let them die. It looked like this. And the youth pastor was like, who's going to want your flower now?
And this is the message that young girls were getting for such a long time in the 80s and the 90s and the early 2000s. And yet the message for young boys was conquer, was go have sex with as many people as you can, was it is your right, it is your destiny to go have sex with these people. And unfortunately, we're like split 50-50 in the globe. Women and men are split up.
about 49, 49, there's non-binary, there's individuals who are intersex. But when you look at the individuals in the world, if all the men are saying they're having sex with twice as many, who are you having sex with? Oh,
Other men, maybe.
and more tough and more masculine because that's what we think masculinity is, is having sex. And young women are probably dialing their number back because they don't want to be shamed or guilted into thinking that they are a slut or a whore because they have had more sexual partners than the person who's interested in them.
Yeah, so people sometimes lie about their quote-unquote body count. And I think you're right that societal pressures and influences do impact how people answer that question. But I've also seen some interesting research finding that
There's a difference in counting strategy that men and women are using, such that men are more likely to just ballpark the number, whereas women are more likely to actually do the math and count their number of partners. And so, you know, that could be another factor that is explaining some of the variance here is that...
You know, in addition to the societal pressures, people are using different counting strategies. And then also when you filter out like this small number of men who report a very, very high number of partners, men's and women's averages start to become a lot more similar, right? So again, it gets back to that averages are often very distorted by having a few outliers. And yes, there are some people who have many thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of partners. Depends how many sex parties they go to. But yeah.
But yeah, those averages sometimes are a little bit misleading for that reason. I also think it's interesting that you say, you know, men tend to ballpark it or maybe when they get to a number, I don't know, round up almost as if size is extremely important.
To some men it is. Interesting. All right. So people attach a lot of importance to body count. You know, there was a study that came out recently in the journal Social Psychological and Personality Science finding that people evaluate men most favorably when they have had four to five sexual partners and women most favorably when they've had two to three partners. People with fewer partners than that
or more partners than that, were seen as less desirable. So in other words, when it comes to body count or sexual repertoire, a lot of folks seem to think that there is a "correct answer" where you have to have sort of this minimum amount of sexual experience, but not too much sexual experience.
And I think that's really what people are often trying to suss out when they're asking this question. You know, they want to make sure that you're not a virgin or somebody who's like too inexperienced, but also they want to make sure that you're not a slut, right? And I think more often than not, that's what's at the root of this question. So do you agree? Do you think that's why people attach so much importance to this question?
I think that we attach importance to absolutely the wrong things. There is no magic number. I think that after my second sexual experience, I was still very not experienced. And I don't think that I was, I still think I'm learning. I don't think there is this number that's going to help me reach this stage of petite perfection.
where I'm going to have this like ultimate pendulum moment of perfect sex ability. I think that we constantly need to learn and grow. I think two to three is when you said that I was like, Oh yeah,
I'm in so much trouble. I am so not desirable. I am. Wow. So I honestly think I understand not wanting to be someone's quote unquote first. I think that that's probably valid in a lot of ways that people don't want to have this idealized sense of self or have the person, you know, there's this idea that you never forget your first, because I think that we glorify it and put it on a pedestal in this society.
But sexual satisfaction is so important. When we do cross-culture studies, we see how important sexual satisfaction is. It is linked to life satisfaction in many studies. A global study actually found that 60% of people across the globe say that sex
is an important part of life satisfaction. So I could understand why people would have this magical number in mind. What blows my mind is that the majority of people have higher numbers than that. So you'd think that if we presented people with the fact that six is an average number, six would then be the number you would want your partner to at least have achieved by the time they get to you. I don't know. It's crazy.
Yeah, you know, when I posted that study to my subreddit, which is Psychology of Sex, by the way, I've run a subreddit for more than a dozen years, and it has grown to more than 100,000 followers. So if you're on Reddit, and you want to stay up to date on the psychology of sex, you can subscribe there. But when I posted this article, there were a lot of people who made comments along the lines of, today I learned I'm a slut, right? Because...
You know, a lot of people were like, "Wow, those numbers seem really loads." So it was interesting to see kind of like what people's reactions were. And I think, you know, getting back to this point of people asking this question to determine whether you're too inexperienced or too experienced, I think it's important to recognize that just because someone has had a lot of partners doesn't necessarily mean that they're a great lover. You know, you can have had a lot of partners and still be terrible at sex.
And by the same token, just because you've only had one or a few partners doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be a bad lover. Maybe you're a great lover, a very caring, compassionate and skilled lover. You know, just because you've had one or a few partners doesn't mean that you're inexperienced. Maybe you had a heck of a lot of sex with those, you know, one or a few partners. So I don't think body count really matters as much as people think in terms of it serving as this metric of sexual competence.
You said that and my brain just went, because just because you've only had sexual relationships with two people does not mean you've only had sex twice. Hopefully, you've hopefully engaged in various sexual activities over the course of those relationships. And if you are someone who is a sexual person, you've probably done maybe some research. Maybe you've read a book.
I don't know, maybe a Justin Lee Miller book, maybe a textbook. You've maybe gone on a blog or a Reddit thread or taken a class on human sexuality, gone to a sex club, and you have learned skills and techniques simply by asking questions. Or maybe the partner that you were with themselves was very experienced and was able to teach you and was able to communicate with you ways to be a better lover.
So just because you've only had two partners, your sexual repertoire only has two people in it, does not mean you've only had sex two times. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, using, quote unquote, body count as a measure or metric of somebody's sexual competence probably isn't a great idea.
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I think when people are asking about, you know, how many partners have you had, they're often trying to figure something else out. And, you know, as we've said, sometimes it's about determining or assessing sexual competence. Sometimes it's about figuring out whether somebody else shares your sexual or religious values. And sometimes it's about sizing up your STI risk. You know, some people see that as information that's relevant to their sexual health. But in all of these cases, I think there's usually a better question to ask.
You know, for example, instead of asking about body count, maybe ask the last time that someone was tested or if they know their status, because that's going to give you far more useful information about sexual health and potential for STI acquisition and the precautions that you might want to take.
Or if you really want to know whether you share the same sexual values as someone else, maybe you're asking them, you know, how do you feel about casual sex? Or when do you think is the right time to have sex with a new partner instead of how many people have you slept with? So what do you think? When people ask about someone's body count, are they even asking the right question? Yeah.
Usually no. I think that it's always great to lead from a place of curiosity. Being curious about your partner from day one to day...
7,523 is important. And asking questions that are curious and not accusatory is really important. Today, my husband picked me up from the airport and took me to work and he got in the lane that was going to exit us off the freeway.
And instead of saying, oh my God, what are you doing? Where are you going? I said to him, ooh, where are we going right now? Right, where are we going? And he said, I'm taking you to work. And I go, well, that's fun. Why are we in this lane? And he said, oh, I'm sorry, thank you. And he moved over to the right lane. Instead of saying, how many people have you fucked?
Why don't you figure out the question that you actually want to know, which is, are you someone who engages in casual sex? Are you someone who is going to have more experience than me? Are you someone who is going to intimidate me sexually? Are you someone who gets tested regularly? And as a gentle reminder, having sex with one person, you can still get an STI. Yep.
Just because someone has had more individuals in their sexual repertoire does not mean they are more likely to potentially have an STI. What that needs to be communicated as is, are you someone who practices safe sex? Are you someone who gets tested regularly? Can we get tested together?
When you get to the root of the question that you really want to ask, whether it is, do you have sex before marriage? Do you have sex on a first date? Do you get tested regularly? Those are the kinds of questions that are appropriate, not how many people have you had sex with. And also defining your terms, which is something as a professor I always tell students to do. What does sex mean to you?
What does that word mean? Is that oral sex, vaginal sex, anal sex? Because all three can lead to STIs, but only two of those leads to pregnancy. And as far as virginity is concerned, everybody has a different definition.
Yeah, and going back to what you said about STIs and multiple partners, you know, I published a paper, I think it was in 2015, in the Journal of Sexual Medicine, where I compared the sexual health history and status of people who were in consensually non-monogamous relationships to people who were in monogamous relationships.
And the people who were in some type of sexually open relationship reported way more lifetime sexual partners than the monogamous people. Not surprising. But the two groups didn't differ in terms of their rates of having had STDs. And I thought that that was a really interesting finding because people often assume that
people who have had more partners are necessarily going to have had more STIs. But there's a couple of things going on here. One is that for people who are in sexually open relationships, they're often much more aware and cognizant of their sexual health status, and so they're taking more precautions. They're getting tested more frequently, and they're asking their partners about their status and things like that, versus people who practice monogamy or serial monogamy are not talking about those things nearly as much. Or using protection.
Right. And then there's also the issue of infidelity in monogamous relationships. And what we see in the research is that monogamous people, you know, 20 to 25% of married people will cheat on their partner at some point. And cheating, when it happens, is usually a spontaneous thing where people are not prepared, they don't take precautions. And so that actually makes cheating like a really high-risk activity because most of the time when people cheat, they don't use condoms.
And then they come home, they have sex with their partner, they don't tell their partner about the infidelity, and they're not using condoms with their partner at home. So when you factor all of that in, monogamous and open relationships actually don't really differ in terms of their rates of STD exposure because on the one hand, you've got one group that's taking more sexual precautions, and on the other group, you've got people who are committing infidelity and not practicing safer sex.
I think it's really interesting. That paper in particular, by the way, I've cited numerous times because I love it. But also I think that it's really interesting because you bring up a point that I was thinking about when I was doing my research on
for this episode. And I was typing in, you know, does body count matter? Does number of sexual partners matter? Were you asking chat GPT? Yeah, totally. Yeah, me and AI are BFFs. But so many of the websites that were coming up to give me like research and data were like,
Christian marriage websites. I don't know what's going on with my algorithm, but a lot of them were like these Christian marriage websites and they were saying, oh my gosh, if people have high sex partners before you get married, you're going to have a higher likelihood of getting divorced. And so I went on a deep dive. I found myself on
one of my favorite study websites, which is PMC and CBI NIH. So just for you nerds out there, I do love me some National Library of Medicine and PubMed Central for my research. Now, I found one that was in the Journal of Family Issues. Didn't do any research on this journal, but I did find a crazy link between divorce rates
and quote unquote, body counts. Are you aware of this, Justin Lay-Miller? Are you? I think I've seen that study before at some point. I'm pretty upset because it's a very large study. It's like 30,000 people. And over the course of like 40 years though. So like we're talking about different generations, Gen X, millennials, like Gen Z. We're talking about a lot of different generations, a lot of different sex that happening, a lot of different variables taking place.
But they did find that people who have more than nine sexual partners prior to their first marriage have a higher likelihood of divorce than people who have zero through eight partners prior to getting married for the first time. The craziest part, though, was there was no gender difference between men and women on the rates of divorce.
Yeah, you know, I have seen that study and I've also seen some other studies finding that people who have sex sooner in their relationship are more likely to divorce or break up later on. But I think there are a few important caveats to all of this. I love caveats. These effects are very, very small, right? So it's not the case that like,
oh, you had 10 partners instead of nine. Now your risk of divorce is doubled or tripled or something. 70,000%. Yeah. I mean, these are very, very small effects statistically. And I think can potentially be explained by a lot of other things, right? So, you know, somebody who has...
a higher number of sexual partners? Is it their number of sex partners that is what is playing any kind of role here in that potential increased risk for breakup or divorce? Or is it something that is covarying with reports of having a higher number of partners? And there could be a lot of things that are going on with that. There could be personality correlates. There could be differences in sexual values. There could be differences in the degree of
and the extent to which you see marriage as a lifelong institution. You know, odds are, if you're somebody who has a very high number of lifetime sexual partners, you're probably not as deeply religious in some... I'm not saying you can't be religious and have a lot of sex at all. But I'm saying, you know, for the most part...
You know, these things typically don't go together because most religions tend to say like marriage is like this monogamous union of, you know, two people. And so, you know, I think it might also just be differences in the degree to which they see marriage as a lifelong institution or something that maybe you're just more okay with divorce.
And the other thing I think is interesting is they didn't take into account anyone whose number of partners increased after they got divorced, which I feel like in an individual maybe who gets married when they're really young, perhaps because of religion or because of purity culture, because of their family values at the time.
and then maybe has second thoughts or realizes their values don't align with their current partner and they get a divorce, they may have more casual sex later because that wasn't something that they did when they were younger. And so there's too many variables, but it was just this
screen grab of people who have higher body count have a higher likelihood of divorce. And I was like, first of all, go fuck yourself. And second of all, where did you get your data? And I went and I was like, damn it, there's data. And I was really sad. Well, data doesn't always...
agree with what we think. And that's why it's important to have data because sometimes data challenges our assumptions. But I think something else that's important to keep in mind when interpreting this data is that the researchers who conducted it, and if you look at the papers that they wrote, there's an assumption built into this that divorce or breakup is necessarily a bad thing. And it's like, is it always a bad thing? Sometimes breakup is the right decision for people in relationships. And let's say you're somebody who
sex is very important to you. It's an important part of your relationship. And you and your partner suddenly become like sexually incompatible. And it's a big issue in the relationship. And the fact that you divorce, break up, move on and start a new relationship in which each of you can be sexually content.
Like, is that a bad outcome necessarily as opposed to staying in a relationship that is sexless or where you're having unsatisfying sex, right? So... Where your needs aren't being met and you're depressed and sad and miserable, that's not a great relationship at all. Right. And so, like, that's where you have to consider, like, for people who are studying relationships and...
And you're looking at outcomes like divorce. You know, we know divorce can be a terrible thing to go through. You know, I have many friends who have gotten divorced and it's like an awful, ugly, very expensive situation. But I've seen many of them come out much better on the other side because they're in a relationship with somebody or in some cases, some buddies who really care for them and where they finally figured out.
you know, what it is that they really want and need, and they have partners who are able to meet those needs. So divorce, breakup aren't necessarily always bad things. That's fair. I think that instead of focusing on a body count or a number, I think we should focus more on consent, right?
communication, and curiosity. I think those are the three things I would say are more important than addressing how many people someone's been with. Because consent, first and foremost, when you're in a relationship should be on the table right away. Do you consent to this relationship sexually?
asking the questions, being impeccable with your word, asking what you need to know, not making assumptions. Just because somebody has more sexual history than you doesn't make them more likely to have an STI, doesn't make them more likely to be promiscuous or cheat on you or have more experience in bed than you. So communicating what you want to know, communicating your needs,
the questions that you really want to get to. And then curiosity, like I said earlier, leading with curiosity rather than accusations. I think that's so much more important than knowing a number. And to be honest, I don't know my number. Do you know your number? I don't know my number. I don't know my number. Once upon a time I did, but... I did. I did when I was 17 and had sex with one person. Yeah.
So, you know, when it comes to the issue of body count and asking somebody else about it, there are a couple of other things I would want to mention. And one is that be careful what you wish for, right? Because sometimes when people ask this question, they get an answer that they weren't expecting and it completely changes everything.
And so you have to think about, is this information you really want to know? Like, if you have a relationship with someone that's great and their body count number would be something that would totally change or has the potential to totally change the way that you see them and undermine that relationship, is it even worth asking? Like, do you even want to know the answer to that? And I've seen a lot of people post this on social media. They're like, I really want to ask, but I'm really afraid of the answer. And it's like, well, don't fucking ask. Then don't ask. Yeah.
Like, they're like, everything is great, but I really feel like I need to know their body count. It's like, maybe you don't need to know. And, you know, the other thing too is that, as we said a little earlier, people often lie when they're asked this question. And, you know, one of my favorite studies looking at this was conducted by Dr. Terry Fisher, I think actually about 20 years ago at this point. And she basically took college undergraduates, she brought them into the lab, hooked them up to a device that
she convinced them was a lie detector. And then she asked them about their sexual history. And what's funny is that they saw this really big difference between men and women in terms of the number of sexual partners they reported having when they weren't hooked up to the lie detector. But when the lie detector was present, suddenly that difference got a lot
smaller, which tells us that again, lots of people are not very honest about their sexual repertoire. And, you know, it's easy to see how some people might lowball the number because they don't want to stoke their partner's insecurity or because they're worried about being judged.
But you can also see how some people might inflate their number because they want to impress their partner and make it seem like they were highly desired by lots of other people. So, yeah, I mean, this issue of honesty is a big one when it comes to even asking this question. And I saw a survey right before this show that found that about one in five people said that they've lied about their body count to a partner before. But I got to say, I think that sounds a little low.
I think that that's a lie. I think that in and of itself is a lie. That statistic is a lie. That statistic is not fact-based. I don't know. Did you get that from Reddit or from ChatGPT? Because I feel like that's not accurate. I feel like everyone has lied about their body count, whether or not... To someone at some point. But whether or not intentionally or just because someone was like, what is it? And you're like, I don't know. Like, I'm just going to... What do I think this person wants to hear? Yeah.
Like, is it a relative? Is it like someone who is going to judge you? Or is it someone who's like, yo, how many people have you? But like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And you know, that would be an interesting study we should do at some point would be what is your body count? And then what would you tell?
various people in your life if they asked you what it was. So what would you tell a parent versus your best friend versus a romantic partner? I think you'd probably find that the numbers are kind of all over the board. Wow. Yeah, that's very true. So body count shouldn't matter because it clearly doesn't matter to most people when they're telling people about it. And obviously it's not indicative of health or experience or
for you in the bedroom, I really think that what you need to be asking are better questions of your partner as far as how often do you get tested? What do you like in the bedroom? Like a little slap and tickle? Like a little handcuffs? What do we like in here? Or a lot of slap and tickle. Or a lot of slap and tickle. I mean...
Just a little, a lot. I mean, these are pretty sturdy. These are pretty good right here. But you know, like let's be more curious with one another and less judgmental. Ask better questions. That's a good place to end this. I like that. Well, thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Ashley. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work? Absolutely. So I am whatsyourpositionpodcast.com and you can always
Always message me on What's Your Position podcast on Instagram. I love chatting with people. As a matter of fact, two of your listeners sent me emails and let me know that they found me and love me because of you. So big hearts to them and to you. Anytime, What's Your Position podcast is where I'm always at. All right. And I'll be sure to include thanks to all of that in the show notes. Thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here. Thank you. Thank you.
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