Men's Work Session - The Depth Of The Anxious/Avoidant Dance
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All right, my friend, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? I'm doing pretty good. I'm happy to be on. Nice. I'm just recovering from a bit of a cold, hence the voice cracks and groggy voice. So hopefully you don't mind that. Tell me a little bit about why you signed up and what you would like to work on or address in this conversation with me today.

Yeah, signed up. I've been a long-time listener. I like the work that you do and the way you handle yourself and handle things. I like a little bit of, I guess, guidance on situations. I'm set to get married here pretty soon. My fiance and I are both pretty into doing self-development work. We are catching ourselves in these argument cycles. Nothing too crazy, but

just trying to really figure out the best way to handle it before we officially tie the knot. We both come from not really the healthiest backgrounds of childhood. Each had single parents growing up, need a single mom, her single dad. And so we have just kind of a, we recognize we have kind of an opposite upbringing in that sense. And then just trying to understand our patterns and where they come from and

And the best way to get over them, I'm speaking for myself here, like understand how I can best overcome some of my ingrained patterns that tend to get in the way. Okay. Interesting dynamic. You grew up with a single mom. She grew up with a single dad. Maybe a little bit less common.

Tell me a little bit about the patterns that you find are emerging both in the relationship and then some of the patterns that you find that are happening on your side. Yeah. So I guess in the relationship, it is one of us reaching out for a connection and the other one pulling away, kind of a typical anxious-avoidant dynamic. Which one is which? I tend to be a little bit more on the anxious side, more so in this than in past relationships.

which is kind of a surprise to me, usually been pretty avoidant for the most part growing up through my youth into my mid to late 20s. But I find this one, maybe the weight of it actually going through with marriage is tending to make me a little bit more anxious. And with her pulling away or just her avoidant tendencies, she's aware of it and I'm aware of it too.

But that's kind of the, that's really the main pattern. She told me up front, she tends to be avoidant, struggles sometimes with showing affection in the moment, but always comes back. She always comes back around, I guess is a way to put it. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. I thought I was a little more secure than I am, but there's some situations. And I mean, you know how it is. I've dealt with plenty of this, but yeah. So I tend to be a little more of the anxious. She's a little more of the avoidant.

Yeah, I mean, sometimes different people will activate different parts of our attachment foundation. And so we can be in relationships with some women and we're secure and it's all good. And we can be in some relationships with other women and we're a little bit more avoidant. And then we can get in a relationship with a woman and all of a sudden there's anxiousness there. And so it just kind of depends on the person and the relationship that we're building.

Do you have a sense of where her avoidance stems from? Has she shared any of that with you? Why it's hard for her to maybe open up emotionally in some of the moments? Yeah. She spent a lot of time by herself growing up. Kind of was left to fend for herself. She's the oldest of three. Well, no, she's the middle of three. Two brothers, one older, one younger, and younger.

being the only female in the house pretty much her entire life. She's said she spent a lot of time alone. She's had some relationships in the past that I guess weren't really the healthiest is the best way to put it. And she's also a writer and a poet. And so she gets a lot of her, processes a lot of her feelings through her writing and her poetry. She's very upfront with all this stuff. But

But when she's telling me that, it's like, oh yeah, that's great. At least you know your thing, but when you're in the middle of it and you're experiencing it, it's like, why can't you just respond? Tell me, so where was dad for you growing up? He was around until about 11, and then he died pretty abruptly with a rare form of cancer. Okay. And then, yeah. And then from there, mom went into a depression. Yeah.

Brother, kind of same thing, older brother. And I was lucky I had sports teams, a big soccer player, and was able to have a little bit of guidance and mentorship through being on various sports teams. So I was able to kind of, I guess, get away from the home environment of just depression and recklessness, I guess.

brother's a little bit wild. So I was able to kind of get, have, have my little community outside of home and people looking out for me. And, uh, yeah, so that was, that's kind of how that whole situation was. Got it. Okay. A few more follow-up questions. We're just going to do some, some gathering of information here. All right. How old was your dad roughly when he passed? He was mid 60. Okay. How old are you now? I am 34. Okay.

Okay. And what was your relationship like with him to the best of your memory? What was your relationship like with him before he passed? Uh, no, honestly, great. Um, I got along with him a lot more so than my brother. You know, he would, he would come to my sports game. He'd come to my soccer games. I'd go play golf with him. I just remember spending a lot of time with him, taking us to do stuff. There was, I mean, quite frankly, a great relationship.

home environment growing up until that time. But he was definitely the, I guess, the rock of the relationship and he was the moneymaker. Mom was a stay-at-home mom. Yeah, I honestly don't have very many bad memories. Not a whole lot of yelling that I remember between her and him and my mom. I mean, pretty healthy. What was it like for you after he passed? You kind of contextualized what happened to mom and what happened in the family system, but what was it like for you? I remember...

spending a lot of time alone as well when I was at home. I think I tried to distract myself playing video games for a little bit right when it happened. And then as I got older, I got really focused on trying to make it playing soccer. And I'd spend all my time when I was at home practicing, kicking against the wall, stuff like that. So I kind of tried to

disassociate from it all. I just tried to do my thing, keep myself distracted to not have to face it. But it was, I remember it being not easy, especially at that age at 11 years old going on 12. A lot of things

Looking back, a lot of things that I wish, you know, that's a hard age, I think, for a young boy as he's becoming of age. Going to have a father is in the house to kind of guide you. I don't really remember thinking much. I mean, yeah, it sucked, but I don't remember thinking it was that bad.

that in the moment it's in reflection I realize oh wow you know really you know I see other people with you know healthy households both parents and I'm like that's not how my childhood was after that age at all

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe just for, you know, just humor me for a moment and say most of what you just said again, but in first person. So you said a couple of things like for a boy going through that period of time, it's hard to not have a father around and you created some space between what you were saying happened to you and the description of it. So just try and say some of that again from a first person. So yeah.

going through that time as an 11 year old was hard for me because. Yeah. Okay. So going through that time as an 11 year old was hard for me because I felt like I didn't have any protection, I guess, as a way to phrase it. I didn't really have any guidance or mentorship. Nobody there to ask questions. Nobody there to, no one there to really just be there for me. If I had

If I had something happen at school or if I was feeling a way, nobody there to help guide me through some things. I remember me feeling very sad and depressed. That was kind of the norm. I got used to it. I was starting to feel like an outsider to my peers at that age. I remember I would go to school and just not want to be there, not be around people because not everybody would bring that

feeling too school. I mean, there's people running around having a good time and I could participate, but I always kind of felt like it was a little bit forced sometimes. And I remember just trying to get away from those, really just be away from that sad home reality of what had happened as much as I could with whatever I could. So I would spend a lot of time

uh, really, really focusing on a few things to just completely get lost in it. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. Just, um, so take a breath for me and just say what's happening internally as you're describing all this. Been a little shaky, a little, uh, a little tightness, a little scrambled mentally. Um,

Yeah, I mean, I've seen you do it before. Feeling a little tinnitus in my chest. Unable to sit still. You're a little fidgety. You're like, I know that you're about to do that thing that I don't understand what it is that you actually do. And I'm terrified that you're going to direct it at me. Yeah.

I had one of the guys come to a men's weekend last year and he's like, I've heard you do this Jedi shit before. And he's like, and I know it works on me and I don't want you to do that to me, but I do. And that's why I'm here. So understand. Okay. Take just one more breath for me. We'll just go through some of this stuff nice and slow. I mean, man, that just sounds like a lot. That just sounds like a lot. And it doesn't sound like you really had anything.

an acknowledgement of how much you were going through. Who was there for you, buddy? Who was there for you after your dad died? I don't want to make it seem like I just left the fin completely alone. My granddad

came and stayed with us for a little bit. I had some friends that would come stay or come over. Their families would come over. I mean, I was lucky to have some pretty good close friends and their families and the soccer team that I was on at the time. One of my best friends today, his dad was the coach and they kind of became my second family. So holiday times, I'd be getting over there and have

you know, a family Christmas and, and that. So I definitely had a network of people, but I always, I remember feeling guilty. I'm like, like I was being a burden if I reached out to them. And so I never, you know, they, they would offer, but the going through with it, I remember I was a little bit too, I guess scared would be the word to, to do it, to give them a call and be like, Hey, I need, no, I'm struggling today. I need some help. Like never did that. Yeah. How come say, say why you didn't do that?

Uh, didn't want to look like a, uh, I don't know. It didn't want to look very limp. Didn't want to be a burden on anybody else's family and just didn't feel comfortable doing it. I don't know without, you know, just not having, I don't know. I mean, I didn't want to call my, my friend's parents and then just have that just weird. I was a little bit weird for me to do it. Right. Okay. So I'm just going to give you a couple of questions and you answer them with whatever comes up inside of you. All right. Sound good.

Let's do it. Okay. So when my dad passed, I... On that moment, my dad passed, I remember I cried pretty hard at the second I got the news. Felt like the floor was dropped beneath me. Felt like I didn't really know what that truly meant. It took a while to set in. It took a few months, I think, for it to really hit home. Yeah. Made me feel like a helpless...

Little kid in some ways. Well, you were a little kid. You were still a little kid when that happened. Yeah. Right. You weren't a man yet. You were still a boy. So just take a breath. You're doing great. I know we're going into some tough territory. Say what it was like in the home after he was gone. It was very depressing, very disorganized. It's like everything just stopped.

My mom went back to work for a long time. My brother kind of, he didn't have the support network I did outside of home life. So he kind of went off the deep end and never really came back. And it was, it was not a, it was a, it was an environment I did not want to be in, not hostile or abusive or anything. It just did. Yeah. I mean, I don't really know how else to describe the scenario and the way it felt. It was, uh, it was tough. We had just moved into a new house and, uh,

Without him there, we weren't able to afford the mortgage. So we had to very quickly try to sell it and move to another place. So there was some stress around that. Yeah, it was pretty rough. Okay, you're doing a good job. Just take another breath for me. Say what's happening inside of you now. So I'm just right there with you. Just tell me what's happening inside. Yeah, I feel tightness in my stomach, almost a little nauseous. So breathe into that. You're okay.

Breathe into the tightness. Breathe into the nausea. It's alright. Just stay with it for a moment. We don't need to move away from it. I just want you to stay with it. Just make a statement from that tension in your gut. You are a Jedi. I always thought I'd worked through it or handled it pretty well. It didn't really all hit me until later in life. I don't know if this is really the question you just asked, but

As I get older, I'm realizing there is still a lot of stuff unprocessed and that needs to be looked at and attended to. Well, you did do a great job. You did. You did do a great job. You did. And that's too much for any 11-year-old to really get through on their own. It's just too much. It's too big. And you did a good job. That kind of feels like a relief. Yeah, I bet. I bet. Take a breath for me.

What do you think your dad would say if he was listening in on this conversation? What would he want to tell you? That I did a good job, that he's sorry for leaving. Yeah, that he understands it probably wasn't easy. Stay with it. Just let yourself feel whatever's there. What would you want to tell him in return? After you left, I... After you left, I didn't know what to do. Kind of had to...

learned some things on my own that I wished I would have had a little guidance on missed them a lot more than I ever would have really thought I don't know beyond the spot getting asked that question it's a little it's kind of tough no it's okay yeah you're doing good you're doing good I think what you're saying there is is accurate and a bit of an understatement sounds like you really loved your dad a lot and had a pretty good connection with him

And that type of loss is devastating. I have a son. My son really loves me. And he's not old enough yet to really see my BS. And when you're 11, you still don't know. We still have a very upheld vision of our parents, usually. So the loss of that is pretty detrimental. For the sake of time, I'm going to shift gears a little bit, okay?

Why do you feel like you just tune into your gut? Why do you feel like I'm taking you down this path talking about your dad when what you're initially asking me about was this anxious avoidant push pull between you and your fiance? Because I think that it stems from that moment, that fear of loss. It's tough to differentiate from what I know is the reason and the way it feels.

Does that make sense? 100%. Yeah. Say a little bit more though. Just describe it within yourself. Yeah. It's like, I don't want that to happen again. Um, you know, somebody getting that close to me and then all of a sudden not being there, it's kind of scary and it's not, it's not like a conscious thought. It's a, maybe it's like a, like a, like the water I'm swimming in, like every, like the way I see things.

It's an unconscious reaction. It's a somatic body reaction, body response. So take another breath for me. You're doing good. Keep going. So maybe just say what you're afraid of with your fiance. When she pulls away, how familiar does it feel to what you started to experience as we were going through this? Some of the shakes, the tension in the gut, how familiar does it feel to that? And then what are you afraid of happening with her truly?

What's the real fear? It almost frustrates me because it brings up a little bit of anger because I don't want it to become that situation of not helplessness, but abandonment. I guess the real fear is one day she'll decide to just up and leave or...

i'm really i don't know it's kind of hard to think of what the what the root fear like the ultimate fear of it would be well take it take a breath again stay in the stay in the sensation in your body breathe into some of that energy in the belly and just make a statement or two as if she was here about what you're afraid of i'm afraid that you'll

I'm afraid that you'll leave me. I'm afraid that you'll one day just up and go. I'm afraid that you're going to die. I'm afraid that you're going to divorce me. I'm afraid that this won't last. Put it into your own words. Yeah, I'm afraid that it won't last. I'm afraid that you'll decide one day that this isn't what you want. I'm afraid that I'm putting a lot of effort and energy into something that's

ultimately going to be for nothing. I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but I'm afraid I'll be taken advantage of. I'm afraid that you'll leave. I'm afraid that it's not going to stick. It's not going to be that I can't... I'm not going to get to the real you. I'm not going to get to the deep, safe, fully committed relationship that I want my marriage to be. Take one more breath.

Close your eyes for a sec, if you're okay with that. And the best of your ability, just try and picture your dad, whatever memory you have of him, even if it's a little fuzzy, that's okay. And take a breath into that and just feel his presence, your connection to him, and make a statement about what that's like. Happy, safe. Breathe a breath. Keep going. Free from anxiousness and tension.

Yeah, I guess free would be the best way to describe that. Full of joy. Yeah. So just let yourself feel that for a moment. Just really let that hit you, affect you. Breathe it in. Feel it all the way to the soles of your feet, your legs, your belly, your chest, all the way up to your collarbone, your neck, your head. Just really relax into it. And again, just make a statement from there. Say what's happening inside of you. It's like a...

like a warmth almost like i'd not want to laugh let it out even if it feels a little awkward when i did think of uh that old happy gilmore scene where he goes to his happy place so i started chuckling about that but i guess that scene is a good way to put it that's great that's great i don't know if i've ever had a happy gilmore reference that's good no i mean it feels good it's like relaxing

Yeah. So I'm going to just say something to you and you just let it land and see if it's true for you. All right. So close your eyes again, take a breath. And all I want you to do is see if this is true in your gut. So I've been looking for the sense of peace and safety in my fiance that I lost after my dad died. I've been looking for the sense of peace and safety that I got from my dad from my fiance. Yeah.

Just let it hit you. Say what happens when you hear that. It's like a, you're calling it out. You're putting a meaning to the underlying feeling, I guess. Well, what happens inside of you? What happens in your body when you hear it? Honestly, it kind of like, not a sinking feeling, but kind of, it's like a, almost a little bit of guilt. Hmm. Guilt for what? Like that's a lot of pressure to put on, on her.

Yeah, well, that's okay. That's okay. And it's not that we want to do that, but here's what I want to say, okay? Just...

In the effort of time, I'm going to break some of this stuff down. So my guess is that there's a sense of safety and ease that you felt before your dad died that was ruptured inside of you. And you didn't fully feel safe either in the world, relationally with other people and within yourself.

Hence, some of the avoidant behavior in past relationships that you're talking about. If they don't get too close to you, then if you leave, it's not as painful. Make sense? Oh, spot on, yeah. Right? So then this woman comes along and all of a sudden you're like, I don't want that anymore. I want closeness. And then this very deep unconscious fear of being left again

I could say abandoned, but I think it's a little dramatic. But being left again with your heart wide open emerges. And there's a desire unconsciously of, I want that with you, fiance. I want that with you. I want that type of ease and peace and safety and trust with you. Beautiful. Nothing wrong with that.

However, it brings up the buried pain from that child who lost his dad suddenly, who had that sense of safety and relationship ruptured. So relationships can help us to repair some of these things, but we can't become dependent on our partner to provide those things for us. And part of what

The orientation that there's a couple pieces of work that I think would be beneficial for you, but part of the orientation is, can I continue to come back to this sense of safety and ease and peace within myself? Can you locate that in yourself, regardless of where your fiance's at? Again, part of my guess is that you've lost or it's harder for you to maintain connection to that sense of safety and peace internally inside of yourself.

Has that been true? Yeah, I think that's, that reads true. I don't have to be right. It needs to be true for you. No, no, no, no. I think it is. It does mean true. I mean, it's, it's a, here's, here's why I don't want to say that. I'm not thinking about, I'm going to think about like just history and of me, the past. And it's always, uh,

I've always tried to find being safe in other things outside of being able to just come, just being able to just be feeling safe and stuff within my skin. It's like I'm always trying to do these things and achievement-based. I don't want to sound too cliche, but it's like I needed to be the best at something in order to be respected and have other people respect

I don't know what I'm trying to get with that, but yeah, I mean, I think being able to be safe in myself is not easy and it's foreign territory. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of what's been activated on your side, right? Your part of that anxious avoidant dance is that being with this woman, you know, being with your fiance and loving her,

As deeply as it sounds like you do, you know, you must love her a lot to decide to get engaged and get married, right? That's no small thing for a man. You know, it's a really substantial thing. And so oftentimes with the depth of love that we have for another, it puts us into contact with also our deep wounding, our deep relational wounding. And so

There's a very strange thing that happens. It's like the more that we love somebody, the less capable we are of avoiding the pain that we've carried from our past relationships, specifically our primary relationships growing up. It's like that love that we feel for that person starts to dredge up the pain and the hurt that we've buried pretty deep in us.

And I think for you, it's that pain of, you know, after dad died, not feeling very safe. You said, I didn't feel protected after that. So that's, you know, that's a tough thing for a young boy to feel. I think any man can understand that and get what that's like.

So a little bit, here's how to make it tactical for you. Okay. Part of what's been happening is that you've inadvertently and unconsciously been seeking safety from her. I need you to make me feel safe. I need you to make me feel okay. I need you to do certain things or act certain ways in order for me to feel okay. Or when she doesn't, when she pulls away a little bit and some of her avoidance comes up, it activates this part of you.

Right. This little boy of like, oh, fuck, are you going to leave me? Are you going to leave me too? It's like my heart's wide open to you. I really love you and care about you. Don't go. Don't go. Does that land? Yeah. Yeah, that does. So this is where in those moments, a couple of things will be helpful. Number one, being able to start to soothe yourself. Okay. Being able to start to reconnect with safety inside of yourself.

Because what's happening is, oh no, I don't feel safe. She's pulling away. Am I okay? Is she going to leave me? A very deep level. It might not be the conscious thought, right? But being able to come back into a place of breathing, slowing down, feeling into the body, feeling into that tension in the gut, and having some type of practice. In my book, I wrote about fathering yourself.

This is a part of it, being able to father the boy in you that shows up in those moments that's really scared, that's afraid that he's going to be left. And being able to even have a conversation or a dialogue, or you can journal back and forth with him of just like, hey man, we're okay. I've got this. Or she's just taking some space. We're okay. And being able to reparent or father that younger version of yourself.

It might also be good for you to, I don't know if you're working with anybody, but to work with somebody that understands attachment to be able to process some of this. Thoughts, comments, questions I want to just lay it out. Yeah, I think those are great exercises. And I had your book and I was going through it. It was in my backpack and my car got broken into and my backpack got stolen. So I have to react to that.

Read by your book. Well, that's better than the, that's better than the normal. I was reading your book and I got this chapter and I got triggered and I put it down. That's what I get. That's what I get from a lot of guys is like, you really struck a chord and I stopped reading it because I was, I was activated or pissed off or, you know, I didn't want to, I don't want to face that yet, but okay. Sorry. Continue. Yeah. Well, maybe I just hadn't gotten to a part that was making me want to put it down, but, um, no, I've, I've, um,

I've been wanting to do work for a while and I'm not working with anybody at the moment, but I think it's something that I need to do, especially as we're approaching the wedding and stuff after the wedding, just making sure that I do get some things in check and vice versa. I mean, she's also doing her, her fair share of stuff, personal work too. So I haven't done the journaling back and forth exercise. I think that's a,

I think that'd be a pretty good one. Well, again, I think you're doing a good job and you're addressing some things that are pretty important. I think when you do work with somebody, being able to go through some of the pieces that we're talking about, you're also welcome to come back on and we can explore some of these things. I think the other thing that I'll just flag for you that I think will be important to work through is your perception of a woman's ability to navigate

hardship and tough emotions. Now, naturally, it sounds like your mom went through a really hard time after your dad passed. Naturally, no fault of hers at all. And that's going to leave an imprint on the boy because it sounds like while she was going through a really hard time, you may not have gotten what you needed in that moment. Again, to no fault of her own, this isn't to blame her. Her husband passed and that's brutal.

But my guess is that there's a kind of unconscious question that lives inside of you of, can I really trust this woman to deal with her stuff and to navigate her stuff and to come back to me? Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, I think a hundred percent. Yeah, I think, I mean, I, I,

it doesn't make sense that that is the way I'm, I'm thinking and feeling about it because I know that she is, she does do that, but at the same time, it's true. Yeah. It's not a conscious process. It's an unconscious response to past situations that were traumatic. Okay. So it's not a conscious response. It's not like you're conscious, consciously like,

I don't know if I can trust you. It's an unconscious response based on a past situation and period in your life that you went through that was extremely hard, that colored the way that your unconscious mind and body and nervous system respond to those types of situations.

So that's why I'm bringing it to your attention is that there's something really important there to work with around your mom and what happened after your dad passed. And maybe that's round two for us. If you want to do that with me, I'm happy to do that. So we'll pause there. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much for diving into this topic because I think it's important for people to understand that sometimes with these attachment style challenges that people experience, they're not always straightforward.

They're not always straightforward and sometimes they put us into touch with some really deep stuff, some really heavy pain that we've managed to go through life effectively dealing with, but not exactly processing in a way where it's not leaving a really lasting imprint.

on our relationships. So you're doing a great job. You did a great job today. Really appreciate you diving in with me and we'll chat soon. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for, for making time to have me on and I would love to chat again. Awesome.