Finding Creative Flow with Rachel Davis [263]
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Hi and welcome to Artjuice. This is honest, generous and humorous conversations to feed your creative soul and get you thinking. With me Louise Fletcher and this week I am joined by a special guest because Alice and I are taking our summer break and

But I had some things I wanted to talk about and this seemed like the perfect time to bring on a special guest. So I am joined by Rachel Davis, California, abstract artist, representational artist and printmaker. I did want to mention that we have coming up the Find Your Joy Taster Course. I do this once a year. It's a free eight day workshop for anybody who wants to find a new level with their painting. It's for everybody from beginners to experts.

everybody from abstract to representational and everything in between this is not about how to paint like me this is a free online workshop where we all work together to help each other find our own unique ways of expression it's a

tons of fun you can sign up on my website at louisefletcherart.com or on the link in the show notes wherever you're listening to this i do hope you come and join us we start on august 29th and we're gonna have a blast hope to see you then now on with the show hi rachel

Good morning, Louise. Rachel is a friend of the podcast because she has been on before, but we've got a different topic to discuss this week. But before we talk about that topic, let me just give Rachel a little bit of an introduction. So I've known her since...

2018. She was at that time a private psychologist working with private clients and also painting and we kind of started our serious painting journey together in a way and since then she's gone from strength to strength. She's now retired from psychology and art is her full-time career. She

She makes prints, she draws, and she also teaches online courses. So she's really the master of everything. So hi, Rachel. Good morning, Louise. It's great to be here. Thanks for asking me to come on. And tell us where in the world you are just before we get started for anyone who doesn't know you. I am in California, north of San Francisco, and I'm very fortunate to be in a very beautiful place. Right.

with lots of inspiration around me. We've both been so fortunate, certainly over the last few years that I've known you, our lives have gone in really exciting directions that I don't think I could have imagined.

Likewise, for sure. Likewise.

And you're such a profound proponent of that. And recently you visited me here at my house.

And we worked together outside in the sun, a bit too hot, actually. We worked together with Rachel sharing some of her jelly plate techniques with me. And we had a big, long conversation about this idea of doing only what you love and not getting stuck in the thinking. Can you talk a little bit, Rachel, about what we mean by that, not getting stuck in the thinking?

Yes, I can. And since you invited me on this time, I've been thinking a lot about love and joy and thinking. And I thought it was

would be interesting to think out loud with you about the difference and relationship between love and joy and thinking. You talk about finding your joy. And I talk about that with my in-person students all the time when they come in here. I have this huge place for them to play with whatever they want to play with. And I tell them,

Really try not to think about it. Just like wander around and see what grabs you. See what gives you some sort of feel in your body more. I mean, that's one of the big differences. Like don't think, just grab things. Just pick things from all around you that spark, you know, like the Marie Kondo question, does it spark joy for you? People have trouble with that. People have trouble getting out of the thinking mind of what they ought to like or what somebody would buy or

or what's trending, you know, all of which is part of thinking. But what you love and what gives you joy is very, very, very different. It's more primal. It's more, it's less frantic. And you might be excited, but it's different than being, I don't know if you can talk about this, but I think it's a very big difference between being frantic FOMO excited and

versus a more settled in your body, slow down breathing kind of love and joy. But what it just made me think of was I was just out shopping and I was and I went in this little homeware shop and they had all these lovely ceramics and on also these really lovely like dried hydrangeas and things. And I thought, oh,

I really want to buy a green thing to put these in for the kitchen. So I asked them, I said, I love that one over there. And there was like this rounded pot, but it's a bit stumpy. Do you have anything taller in a similar? And she brought out this tall vase that I really didn't like. And she said, oh, this is really, these are really fashionable. And also this, you know, this would really suit these flowers.

And I'm sure someone else would have gone, oh, perfect. I love that. I just didn't like it. And once upon a time, there is a version of me that would have said, oh, okay. You know, maybe when I was 30, I would have thought, okay,

I'll just take that one then. But I was like, really, there was a very clear feeling in me that no, I like that one. And I don't like that one. And it may be that the one I like is incredibly unfashionable and not at all to other people's tastes. And maybe you sell 20 a day of this one, but I don't like that one. And it's that feeling.

that I think, like I said, a past version of me wouldn't have been in touch with necessarily how clearly I liked one and not the other. Yes. Because what if we liked something and it's not the right thing to like? You know, when I was...

at your place for the play date and we were looking for materials to work with on the jelly plate, I kept on picking, I kept on telling you, I like the dead stuff. I like the stuff. And I was like, you're nuts. Exactly. And I like, and I was...

fine with that being nuts with you and totally fine it's like show me more dead stuff because that really does it Rachel was like getting where I'd weed sprayed and she was getting like the dead weed leaves and going oh look at this it's beautiful and all I was thinking is why is it not fully dead yet why is it still half alive

Right. And, and, and again, I think at some point for me also, it would have been maybe shameful to strong a word, but maybe not, you know, maybe not. It's, but now it's just, it's fun. I almost feel a, like a Bratz delight in, well, that's me. If that you don't like it, it's your problem. But it's, it's not, it's also not,

I think when you use words like love and joy driven, it sort of sounds like it should be a slam dunk. You know, it's like, obviously, that's great. Let's just go for it. Let's just do it. But one of the things I was thinking about over the last couple of days is one of the ways I know I love something.

is how much misery I'm willing to put up with to get there. Like, you know, years ago, I remember you saying to me, you know, your abstract work is great. And why are you torturing yourself with this figuration? I said, because I love it. I can't shut it down. So I'm willing to tolerate being incompetent and being a beginner. Mm-hmm.

Cause that's how much I love it. If you want to get there, this is what you have to go through to get there. And so it's not joy, love, happy, happy, la la la. It's not, it's not like that. It's that the pull is so strong internally. If, if you listen to it, if you turn the volume up on it and quiet down the other stuff that there's nothing you won't do to get there. It

It's interesting that where people go off the rails, I think, with an art practice is when they start doing something. Probably we all do this that we've seen someone else do. We follow a teacher or we've seen another person online or we have to have some place to start. So we start somewhere that someone else has showed us or that we've seen someone else do. It's not actually the right thing for us and we don't enjoy it. So we give up.

Because why wouldn't you give up with something that's horrible? So you should. So you give up. And then you think, well, art's just not for me because I gave up. But as you say, when you find the thing that you really love, you don't give up. You keep going. What I see my job as,

in teaching the course is helping people to see that, what you said, that there's a lot of crap you have to make. Like there's a lot of bad drawings, a lot of bad paintings, a lot of bad prints that you have to do to get to the good stuff. Even when you are experienced, even when, you know, we spent all that day printing and most of what we made, we didn't like. So you've got to be willing to do that. But I think a lot of people have,

got this idea and I'm not sure where it comes from but this idea that

Proper artists, real artists don't have failures. And therefore, if I'm having failures on my way to learning to draw, let's say, I must not be talented because, you know, Van Gogh, he just picked up a paintbrush and was brilliant. Well, actually, he didn't. And he was terrible. Yes, he was. He couldn't get a figure in proportion to save his life at first. But he was willing, as you say, to go through practice.

practice, practice, practice until he could do what he wanted to do. But I think you have to be crazy. I think, I mean, when you think about the metaphors about love, you know, you have to be crazy in love. I think you have to be a little crazy. I knew just before you and I met, I knew that things were getting crazy for me in this art department because it's all I thought about, you know, it's like when I had time, when I had time to scroll through things, it was art stuff. And I,

If you start to notice, you say, well, I'm spending a whole lot of time looking at art and trying to figure out how to do it. And then it's about like upping the volume on your own voice that says, go there. Yeah. Go there. And notice.

So much of this is about getting people to notice. Like we were saying at the beginning, what vase do you like? What area do you want to live in? What clothes do you like wearing? All of that. Just getting people to notice. But noticing, like you said before, what are the parts of this that do grab you versus the parts that leave you absolutely cold? Cold.

And often we'll go on a workshop or with a teacher and that person will share their process. That's usually what people do, right? So they share their process and it either makes you excited and sparks possibilities or a lot of the time,

It does the opposite. If you're new to it, you can't discern that it's not your fault. So if someone comes to your printmaking botanicals, yours is a lot about freedom and that's for sure. But let's say someone comes and printmaking just isn't for them.

Right. They can only know that after a little bit of experience, unless someone says, if you really didn't enjoy that, maybe try drawing, maybe try painting, maybe try sculpture, maybe try ceramics, you know. But even then within painting, so...

How did you find within painting what you wanted to paint? Because you have quite a varied practice as well, where you do lots of different things. I think it's important, like, even though I do exercise a lot of freedom and I do pay close attention to what's lighting me up on a given day. None of this means that I don't get thrown off by doubt. Not so much that I'm not an artist because I jump around sometimes.

But I worry about getting taken seriously enough because I jump around. You know, can I get good enough at any of the many things I do because I jump around? But the fact of the matter is I have a jump around brain. That's just how I'm wired. So for me to try to put myself in one box, I would rapidly become so miserable that the whole thing would be, this joy would be sucked out of it.

So I've learned to just more like this is me. You know, I'm not a spring chicken and this is who I am and this is who I'm going to be. So I am going to follow the things that

That really excite me. Do I wish that I wasn't quite as gyrati as I can be? I do, but I think that's just not going to be my path. You know, I think it's, it's not going to, and I do, I spend a lot of time trying to notice. I feel like being an artist, like you said, it's so about noticing that that is so much a part about noticing and curiosity and

And, you know, sort of noticing without judgment that I almost feel, I mean, I feel like I learned a lot about myself as a psychologist and listening to people, but I feel like being an artist is so, there's something so immediate about the tune in process that has to happen, right?

And I feel like I've learned more about myself in these six years that I have in the, you know, 60 years that came before it. I think I totally agree with that about myself too. And I think something you said there is really important. Well, everything you said is important, but the key thing there for me is this feeling of you're having doubts and you're

Your doubts are different from my doubts, but you have doubts. I have doubts all the time. I think, again, when you're not as experienced...

you really believe the artists that you see doing well on Instagram don't have those doubts. Yeah. And yet I've never met one that doesn't. I haven't either. And I don't trust those people. If somebody were to purport to not have doubts, I would hightail in the other direction. You know, what are they pretending? I mean, I just think it comes with human territory to, to have doubts and to, if you're lucky, you,

Just recognize them as, okay, I'm in a doubty kind of day today and maybe don't try so hard and come back tomorrow when the winds are blowing differently. And as we said before, if you're doing what you love, you'll be able to ride out the doubts. Whereas when you're doing something already that you don't love, because say you go to an art club and everyone there works in watercolors, doing florals and you think,

well, their florals look brilliant. I should be doing that. And so you try that, but you really don't like it. Then when the doubts come in, you've got nothing to fight them with because you hate what you're doing anyway. But when you are doing what you love, and this is what I love about you. I know for you, you see it sometimes you have doubts about switching and shifting and doing the different things you do. But I love that because

it proves that you really are following your joy at any given moment. If you were to say to yourself, well, I've been doing portraits and I've promised myself, let's make this up now. I'm going to do 100 days of portraits of famous people, say, just to practice drawing. And then by day 30, you're really miserable. And you just realize I picked the wrong time for this because I don't feel like it. If you now make yourself, try and make yourself do another 70 days

Well, you won't get there. You'll give up. I'm speaking generally now. Anybody, we would give up at like 50 because what a slog. But what you do is you switch then into making prints or painting abstracts or doing something else.

And letting yourself just, you're kind of like riding it constantly, the good wave. And I think I sometimes fall into the trap of not doing that. And a perfect example I talked about with Alice, I think on the last episode, where I came back from California and visiting you guys, and I was all set to carry on with what I was doing there, but it wouldn't work. And then I was like, oh, okay.

now what and I got stuck for a few months and what set me free actually was recording a demo for my art tribe online community and I was doing a demo on color mixing with compliments and all of a sudden I was like oh I feel like started off I feel like using this this paint up on a canvas that I really didn't like a pink one so I'm going to cover the pink up with

these colors and then so I pushed the palette paper down and then that was a nice feeling so then I put some more paint on the palette paper and smushed it some more and then before you know it my nice clothes were covered in paint because I wasn't actually supposed to be painting and my canvas had completely changed colors into these very muted tones of these compliments and all of a sudden I was off to the races again

because it was fun and I was just doing it for fun. And for me, that is always, always the key. But one question I get asked, which I can ask you because you do work representationally more than I do. If you're working representationally, how does this idea of just being free translate? Because if I'm doing a portrait of Winston Churchill and I want it to look exactly like Winston Churchill,

I can't just smush my palette paper all over it. Or can I? You totally could. And I have to, I'll do really crazy stuff with portraits. I mean, I'll use materials I can't possibly control. I'll use sumi ink and like, or I'll use just something I can't erase. I'll give myself time limits. If I'm printing, maybe I'll, I'm doing this thing now where I'm,

doing charcoal and transferring it onto a jelly plate. So the charcoal drawings are full of energy and they're timed. There's all sorts of ways, I think, to mix it up representationally. A lot of it involves allowing yourself, you used the word,

I was just having fun. There's something, and I do the same thing. There's something pejorative about that. Like that it doesn't count. And where did we get that idea that fun is bad or less than? Like who told us and why do we believe them? And we do, all of us. I definitely get that way still, even though I do feel grateful that I have a lot of access to freedom and joy in the work.

But it doesn't mean you don't, you know, those old shoulds don't enter the fray. It shouldn't feel this good. It shouldn't. Actually, the thing you're best at will be the thing that feels easiest. Yeah. Because because it's because you've got a talent for doing that thing. So it will feel easy.

But it shouldn't feel so easy as that. So then it feels like a cheat, like, oh, well, maybe this isn't real art because it's too easy for me is what I hear a lot of people say. Easy is good. Fun is good. There's nothing wrong with that. Exactly. I think easy and fun.

is the signpost that says you're onto your natural mode of expression. It's awkward because I'm not saying the whole process is easy. Right. But the process of changing the pink painting, which was painful, it was just painful. I was so stuck on that thing. Yeah. And then the process of changing it in half an hour to something that excited me was fun, was easy. Was easy. Right. Right.

It was totally easy. Well, I have an idea. What if you, and I'm talking not just to you, I'm talking to me too. What if you change, like what if you just tweaked that? Because again, I think-

and maybe this because I do representational, I still feel like I'm not going to have enough years to live to get the kind of good at it that I want to be. But what if you switch the problem to what you want to be great at or that you do love, even if you're not there yet? So then you're working hard

But it's something at least that you love. I think the problem is when you're when you're grinding, grinding for something that you can't stand, you know, then what the hell's the point? A lot of people don't recognize, though, that they can't stand it because it's the wrong thing. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Yes. I think they think, oh, well, I must not be a painter then because this is horrible.

I wonder if that's the feeling is like, I'm the problem. Instead of I'm doing the wrong thing. Right. I'm the problem and I'm just not talented. And we've talked a lot about talent over the years and it brings to mind this story, which I'm sure we've told before and we'll tell again, but you were one of the kind people who first took my course when it was first launched. You were like supportive and you came along and you booked on my first beta venture course. Yeah.

And at the time I thought, oh, I'm not going to be able to help Rachel because I felt like you were at least on the same level as me artistically and maybe further along. At the time, I didn't realize that what I was teaching wasn't the painting part anyway. So that part didn't matter. I was helping with the mindset part. And then you really wanted to paint like another artist who is extremely good

and very technically accomplished and good in every, you know, just brilliant, really talented. And you said, I'll never be able to do that. And I said, well, I don't think you'll be able to do that. What he's doing, because what he's doing is his, but I think you could do something equally brilliant. And you said, just like you said, I'll never be, just like you said, I've not got enough years to be as good as I want. You were like, nope, I won't.

I won't be able to remember that feeling. I do. I was, I was convinced. And that is, that is one of your geniuses actually. I mean, I, I am,

forever grateful to that. We finally agreed to, we agreed that this particular person might need 5,000 hours to get better. And I might be 10 because he did have more natural talent than I did, which I still believe is true. I so disagree with me to just, I do need to say something about that because it's so important. Okay. Those drawings that I bought from you, I bought two drawings from Rachel when I was in California and,

I'm so excited. I don't have them yet because they're with my framer who lives in the other part of the country and he can't come up for a few more weeks. So I'm like dying to see them in their frames. But when I saw them in your studio, I was so taken by them that I,

I just had to have them. I didn't even ask you how much they were. It was just like, oh, I want those. And I asked you later. And you have this incredible natural talent for just these emotional, incredibly emotionally grabbing things.

pieces of art. And that's what these drawings did for me. And if I remember, I'll put a link in the show notes so you can see a picture of these drawings. If you listen, so you can go and have a look. They're just amazing. And they take me back to my childhood and they make me feel all kinds of feelings. And so your natural talent, we didn't know it at that point because we didn't know yet what it was, but we knew you,

I knew you had something because we all do. Every single one of us does. Yeah. But you were very good at tapping into it very quickly because you did a drawing. Was it within like week three or week four on the course? Yeah, it was that. That is I have to say that is it's an extra lesson called.

what is it? It's compare from compare and despair, which is what I was doing. I was comparing myself to this. I don't want all of us to do this. I was comparing myself to this other artist and despairing. I'll never get there. He's so good. I'm so bad. I was the whole, you know, violin. I shouldn't disparage my feelings. I was very upset, but all of us are. And, and I think the second half of the name of that lesson, at least back then was compare, compare and be inspired. That sort of,

Find an artist whose work that you love. And instead of saying, oh, poor mom, I'm so sad. I'll never get there. Go to what can you learn from them and how can you make it your own? I still see that as one of the most important lessons I ever had in all the workshops I've taken in all the years. It was such a powerful lesson and I,

You, Louise, you sort of took us on this journey and all of us, there was a group of us like 50 who jumped on board before you. And it was, you know, I haven't taken the course in some years, but I'm imagining that the format is pretty much that you've tweaked it a lot. Yeah, it's longer now and it's more involved. But the basic structure is then that lesson where you did your amazing drawing, that is still there.

And when you showed that drawing, everyone went, oh, God, it was a drawing of your mum who at the time had dementia. But it was a drawing of her as a young person, but also there was some of the old person in there and it was...

It was really powerfully haunting. And at that moment I was like, oh, that's what Rachel's talent is. Like we, you know, everyone's got one. Everyone's got this thing. Yours is the pure emotion. And that is, that is in the prints that you do. And it's in the abstracts that you paint. And it's in the drawing that I bought. It's, it's always this, this,

translation, I think anyway, of feeling from you to us that without a filter so that we feel it. One of the things I loved about, about the, one of the things I really loved about the course and about you as a teacher is that you, you, you weren't, you aren't doctrinaire. You know, if there's any point that you're unwavering about, it's this commitment to everyone else.

if they can get out of their own way, having a voice that deserves to be heard. And that is, I think, an unshakable commitment on your part. But everything else you're willing to tussle about. And I really love that. Like, really, really, I think it's super important in a teacher. You know, I think it's very easy as a teacher to get...

Like I, I'm just thinking about the ways you can get in your own way. I'm thinking about the many, many ways you can get into your own way. One of the things that one of the other things I worried about, about becoming an online teacher was that, that people are going to want me to teach them exactly what I do as a printmaker. They're going to want to do that. And the thought of doing that, I'm being hyperbolic here. It didn't really make me want to shoot myself, but it really made me want to like not do it. Like I didn't want to do a, how to do something exactly. Right.

But I didn't know if people were going to be on board for turning up the volume on what they love and what they hate. And I use the word hate because for me, it is all about strong feelings. But that's what makes art powerful. But I didn't know if that was going to be cool to do. Like, what if people just want it? Just like, shut up, Rachel. I don't care about that. I just want to do this. And I guess those people won't take the course. I'm curious, what's the biggest roadblock you see

to people believing that they have something of value inside of them that needs amplifying as an artist? What's the biggest thing that gets in the way?

I think, and this is maybe too broad of a statement, but it's messaging from, I mean, you will know this as a psychologist, but it's messaging from childhood, whether it's teachers or parents. So I could say there are several big hangups, like not wasting things that comes from family who told you don't waste things. Don't, you know, if you're going to do something, do it well, because otherwise it's a waste.

And a lot of these are well-meaning messages or came from a family that didn't have any money. Right. It's not like your parents have been mean or horrible. Right. Or it's a teacher who told someone you can't draw. You shouldn't be in art class because you can't draw. Or it's so it's always something which happened to us.

when we were really quite young, which we've carried all these years, there are many, many different versions of these hangups. And you, I mean, as a psychologist, even before you were teaching, you were working with creative people. Is that what you found? Yeah, definitely. There was definitely that. I'm trying to think what else got in people's way. And I do, this is a variation. I think it's some of the comparing.

Yeah. Some of the comparing stuff, you know, that you can't because I'm not as good as that person. You know, some variation on limiting beliefs. I'm too old to be

set my ways, I'm too, it's too expensive, you know, so some story, some story that said that stopped with a pen, you know, with a period, with a hard period at the end of it. Yes. You know, and that, that's why what if and noticing and curiosity with your friends, if you can tap into them, what if especially, you know, that sort of what if,

Some people ask what if they get like, they can ask what if with a lot of anxiety attached to it, or you can ask what if with like, oh, that could be cool. And it's not so easy to make the switch, you know, depending on, depending on your history. It's, and it's also, we have that, that negativity bias, which is very much a, an evolutionary thing, you know, like,

Because if people don't like you, they could kill you. You could die. You could be extruded from the tribe, all those things. So we very much have a tendency to amplify the possible negative stuff. You know, I just...

I'm sure you have it too. You probably have like thousands of people who love your teaching. And the one person who says something, you could probably quote that chapter and verse, you know, even though the numbers are so disproportionate. And I think that's, and again, I just, cause I'm having it now too. And it's just, you have to,

know that you're doing that. Know that you're unduly amplifying something negative because you're human, not because there's something wrong with you. But it's, again, I don't think any of us will ever shake that. That fear of moving from the tribe, of being thrown out of the tribe, that is so important because often during the course, when people are moving their mindset, someone will make something really quite unique and

And they'll share it and they'll say, I'm worried about this because it doesn't look like anything I've seen before. And I go, hallelujah, like you've made something totally unique. But their feeling is that feeling of, oh, I'm not fitting in. And we have this desire to fit in is the antithesis of what we actually need as artists, because what's the point of

of making stuff that fits in. The point is survival. So that's why we can't shut it off. You know, it's sort of like being a part of the tribe helps you survive. But I agree with you. Sometimes you can't.

you look at everything coming out. That's the same, same. You almost get sleepy. You get tired from seeing it. It's this breath of excitement and fresh air to see something new. But for the person who's putting it out there, it's so vulnerable. It's such a vulnerable thing. And when they do it so often in the free course that's coming up, we do some exercises and people will tend to share their pieces and

And every single year there's many more than one person, like maybe, you know, 15, 20 people who share. Wow. I put my picture up and my friend has to buy it. My auntie has to buy it. My mom has to buy it. And it's the first time I've ever sold anything. I've been doing this for years because it's the first time they made anything exciting. Yeah.

And other people could see it and go, oh, wow, I want that. And the flip side of that, of course, is if it's exciting enough that some people really are drawn to it, there'll be lots of people who are pushed away from it. So that's the flip side, which we have to get used to, that you're not trying to make everyone happy. You're just trying to, you know, attract your people.

to like your thing, even the most popular, even Banksy maybe is the most popular artist currently working. Maybe the most like, yeah,

accessible popular person but there are plenty of people who can't stand Banksy including the snobby people who think he's not clever he's not being clever enough and then there's the people who just think well that's just stupid you're desecrating buildings and there's everything in between

And you take like the Beatles. I have a friend who can't stand the Beatles. Oh, like how can that even be? But, you know, people exist. You can't stand the Beatles. So you can never be. And certainly when the Beatles were popular, there were lots and lots of people who couldn't stand them. So you're never going to be able to be for everyone. But the more on the edge you are.

the more there will be people who detest what you're doing. And sometimes that person is your spouse or your best friend. Right. And they do. I thought it was a I thought I felt it was a personal victory for me. I really respect my husband in lots of ways. And I respect his opinion as an artist. You know, he's not an artist, but as of my of my art.

But now when he doesn't like something and I, and I, and I really value his opinion. I don't like him. I don't want to be pandered to by my husband. But I really, I truly don't care. Yeah. I truly really don't give a damn if he doesn't like it, you know? And, but that was a long time coming.

That that definitely took a long time, but now it's more like, oh, that's more proof that I'm following my own voice. Yeah, I'm not going to go. I'm not going to run back to the studio and, you know, get rid of that color that he doesn't like because he doesn't like it because it's crazy. And I kind of am enjoying that crazy color right now.

It's funny because when I was first starting out being serious about my art, so probably 2017-ish, my mum would comment a lot because she doesn't like anything abstracted. And I'd gone from drawing realistic things, painting realistic things to now doing more abstracted landscapes, but nothing like as abstract as they are now. But she would comment

not, well, suppose she was a bit disparaging. She'd be like, well, the biggest thing for her was drips. She didn't like drips, paint drips. I love paint drips. So she'd say, the sky doesn't have drips. And I'd be like, I don't care. I want to put drips in the sky.

and I remember this one time she called my stepdad over and was like come and look at this it's got drips in the sky and I don't like it and I was like don't call him because now you're trying you're trying to I was so upset and I was defensive and then as time went on and I got more confident in what I was doing I stopped caring just as you said like yeah my mum doesn't get it that's fine you

you know yeah she doesn't need to and since i stopped caring she stopped commenting like now we just leave it you know she well she tells everyone oh my daughter's a successful artist she's really proud and she doesn't actually she just says well i don't understand it but she

My own, what I'm trying to say is our own confidence changes other people's behavior towards us. Totally. Yeah. So if your spouse is kind of, I mean, not what Dan's doing, which is just expressing an opinion that's different. But if you have a family member who is a bit derogatory, the more you stand by your own work, which comes with time and confidence and practice and

then the less they will actually bother criticizing it. And they'll just accept it as part of you and probably not comment. They'll never love it if it's not their cup of tea, but they won't, they won't pick on you in the same way unless they're really mean and they just want to hurt you, which most people are not. Yeah. It's interesting because I like bringing things in for his opinion. You know, I have, I have the studio in my backyard and I like bringing things in or calling him out if it's something big that I don't want to drag. And I like getting his opinion and,

But at this point, I feel free to not give a damn about his opinion. It's more like sharing because I love him and it's a part of my life and it's important to me, so I want to share it with him. But I don't need it in a way that I would have needed it or would have felt more dependent on whether or not he actually liked it some years ago. I think that's a really good point that goes back to something else you said before, which I'm going to slightly disagree with.

Good. Like that. Let's have a battle because you said we'll never get, we'll never get over a negativity bias. For example, we'll never get over that. But I, I,

I now have when it comes to my art or my teaching. So when I get a comment from someone that's negative, it genuinely doesn't even touch the sides. It's like, I don't care. I just delete on YouTube or whatever and it's gone and I don't care. Whereas it used to really hurt me. And I was thinking about this when you were speaking because there are some things where someone could hurt me by saying a negative comment, very definitely.

And so why is it that that, it comes back to feeling very confident in having chosen for myself all the steps. So I teach in the way I want to, I make my work in the way I want to, I sell it in the way I want to, I don't follow everyone else doing what they're doing. So I feel quite solid and secure in, it won't be for everyone. I'm happy. It's for some people and that's fine.

And I think we can only ever get hurt when people say something that we think is true. Somewhere inside ourselves, we think they're right when we think they're wrong. So if someone said to me, you're looking old, right, that would hurt me because I don't like it. I don't like looking older. I don't like that at all. I would feel that.

even though I know it's true I would still feel it as a because I'm trying somewhere inside myself I feel that too and I don't want it to be recognized by other people but um if you say my artwork sucks I just you know I don't it really doesn't bother me anymore so I think it's a good point to look at yourself to look at your own feelings about your work when someone is

mean about it or not is there something in you and I don't mean you I'm asking the people is there something in you that either feels it's not good enough yet

or still hasn't worked through because sometimes in my case earlier it wasn't good enough like it's there were certain points where my work wasn't as good as I thought it was maybe it still is that way but I I knew deep down oh this isn't as this isn't as good as I wish it would be so when someone else said it wasn't good it really hurt me because now I feel it it's

So what I'm trying to say to people listening is if there's somewhere in your work that people can hurt you, I dig into it a bit more and try and find out where you're lacking in confidence. Is it that you need more education, skills, something? Or is it that you just need to choose a bit more for yourself and stand behind your choices more? But there's something in it if someone can hurt you, I think.

I mostly agree. I don't have to have a big argument about it. I mostly agree. I just do. No, but you're the psychologist. You're allowed to. Well, I just think there's, I do think there's a, there's a primal evolutionary part of us that's on guard for critique. I just, I just think that's true. Yeah.

But I also do agree with you that, I mean, I feel less, again, like with my husband, I really don't care now if he doesn't like something, it's just, we differ. And maybe for the

I'm trying to think, I don't know. I mean, I'm mostly, it's not a big argument. I mostly agree with you and I slightly disagree with you. Okay. Because I'm the unqualified one here, just babbling on about my own opinions. You're the psychologist. So yeah, no, but you're, you've been doing this teach. I mean, how many thousands and thousands and thousands of artists have you worked with at this point? Yeah. So many now. Really? I mean, like it's,

I think it's over 100,000 people through the free course now.

It must be. Which is amazing. I mean, maybe some of those are duplicates. I don't know. But certainly after this year, it'll be well, well over 100,000 people going through it. And you do see, as you know, with your coaching that you did, you do see the same patterns over and over again. And you do see, and there's so many students that I could have asked to be on here who've gone all on different paths.

all making really different work, but interesting, exciting. And for some people, they want to sell out like we do. Others just want to make it for themselves and enjoy the process, which is just equally, I think is important. And, and some people want to be in galleries and some people are aiming for museums and everybody is on their own path, but it's,

It is amazing to see what we can unleash in ourselves because I feel like each person unleashes it in themselves. What I do is just help.

reveal some unhelpful thoughts that might be preventing them from well but I would say again you use that word just again um I think I think you're pretty incredible at helping unleash that in people and helping people get out of their own way yeah no it's true it's it's it's really true it's a very um

that's, that is a talent of yours that you've honed to, to get, you know, to your it's, it's, this is not a job for you. It's an avocation and it's a passion and you truly believe it. And that really comes through to people. So I, yeah, I, it's not, it's not just you help, you help get that. There are people who say,

Well, how can everyone make good art? Because everyone couldn't be Michael Jordan, for example. Right. Everyone couldn't be a star basketball player. Everyone couldn't be Taylor Swift. But we could all play guitar and we could all express ourselves in music if we wanted to learn. The ability to express yourself, you were doing it as a child. You were doing it as soon as you could hold a crayon, you were making things. Right.

We all have this innate gift for sharing ourselves. And then as we get older, for all the reasons we've already talked about, it gets squashed down and we stop doing it. We start saying my work has to be objectively good by the standards I've seen other people say is good or else there's no point. And that crushes our creativity and stops the world getting the things that it could have

Like if you had said to me, well, I have no talent to do this. I'm giving up. I would now have my beautiful two drawings, which I can't wait to have.

No, it's interesting. Not everyone. It's those are very funky drawings. I love them. I adore them, but they're creepy. They're creepy doll drawings that are sweet and sad. And I love them, but they sat in my studio and I had, I mean, I had a few people who loved them, but some people just like, okay, then, you know, they were too weird and creepy for some people. Yeah. And that, and that's me weird and creepy. Yeah. And that's me too. You know, it's, it's, it's,

It's fine. Everybody doesn't have to love it. I can't disagree with anything that you said, Louise. I think I have people who come to me and say, I don't have a creative bone in my body and it breaks my heart. And it's very hard for me not to launch into the kind of evangelizing that I feel about the same thing because I feel like.

What possibility is there for people if they can get out of their own way and tap into what's there? And the reason that kids can do it is that up to a certain age, they don't have the mind that says they can't. It's like, why wouldn't they create? Because it's fun, you know, because making a mark where it wasn't.

is thrilling. Yeah. Changing the world that way is an absolute thrill. And it's, it gets squashed. I hate those stories about teachers who said there were so many stories about art teachers. Yeah. Who I feel like if I could reach back, I would revoke those people's licenses and not allow them in the vicinity of children because of the damage and the joy and the possibility they suck out of lives. Yes.

that don't have to be sucked out. And fortunately, you can help people get back to that. But I absolutely believe it's possible for everybody and that those people who say they don't have it, again, it's as much a part of being human to make art, to create, as it is to be worried about getting thrown out of the tribe. They're both inherent to being human.

And so I think our job is to help people go there, you know, and we're lucky to have people want to come along and learn. I mean, when people sign up for you, they wouldn't sign up if there wasn't a part of them that they believed it might be possible. Yes, because all the marketing is about that.

So if you didn't want that, you wouldn't sign up. That's right. You would say, I want someone to just show me how to hold my paintbrush and what mark to make. And so if you sign up, there's, there's something in you that says, I want to express something more than I have been. And I think the hardest thing about that is we can't see what it's going to be. So that's so hard to believe when I found that very hard. When I was told this years ago, I thought, well,

Well, then show me what it's going to look like. What's it going to look like? Tell me that so I can start aiming for it. But of course, it doesn't come that way. It comes through simply choosing. I like this brush, but not that one. I like this color, but not that one. I like this substrate, but not that one. The hate is very important, I think. I think the hate is super important because the other big problem I have with people is they...

I don't know what my voice is, but then I say, I talk about this in my course too, like, what do you hate? That's really useful. What you feel mediocre about isn't useful. What you hate is a doorway to what you love because you can start asking what's the opposite of what you hate questions. That's a good point. Yeah. And it's a really good, for people who don't know, I find that a very helpful route.

I should do part two is find your hate. I should do that one. It's true. No, because I do find some people say that I just don't know because so many voices internally have squashed what your voice is. But what you hate stays pretty potent. So that's a good way to know. Yeah, that's a really good point.

Well, I think that's a good place to end on. I did want to mention, we mentioned Rachel's course either last time or the time before, but I want to mention again that Rachel has an online course and there'll be a link in the show notes for that. You can totally do both. You can totally do the free taster course and Rachel's course. There's plenty of room for both. Mine is whenever. They can take it whenever. Rachel's, yes. Mine is one time, got to sign up and do it with us or it disappears.

whereas Rachel's is there whenever you want to do it. It is a course that uses the jelly plate as a tool. If you don't know what a jelly plate is, just look it up. G-E-L-L-I, G-E-L-L-I, jelly plate. It's a way of making prints.

cheaply and easily. And Rachel has some amazing techniques that take you way past the easy, but I would say it's a course about that, but it's also knowing you, of course, about finding your voice and your choices. And so it's not learn what Rachel does. It

Here's some things Rachel knows and she's sharing them with you so you can explore and do your own thing. Thank you so much for being here, Rachel. It's my pleasure. Always a pleasure, Louise. I will link to everything of Rachel's below in the show notes, wherever you're listening to this. And also you will find the link to sign up for the Find Your Joy Taster course, which once again is completely free and lasts for eight days, I think. Eight or nine days. I should really know that before I come on. Yeah.

And you don't need very many materials. It's just come along, bring whatever you have and have a go. All right. See you next time, everybody. Bye.