Letting Go [279]
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Hello and welcome to Art Juice, honest, generous and humorous conversations that will feed your creative soul and get you thinking with me, Alice Sheridan. And me, Louise Fletcher. Now you'll notice there isn't any chirpy music over this episode intro. We will come to that in a moment because it has been a thang, but it is...

But it's also been a while since we were here. So we just wanted to have a little chat about everything that's been going on since the last time we recorded, which means this episode is likely to be about two hours long. So settle in. I can't even remember everything that's happened since we last recorded. Well, do you want the potted summary? Yes. Give me the potted summary. My potted summary is...

I've been to Bali, run the most amazing retreat, had an incredible trip either end with some just extraordinary little moments, including being at a fire festival in a village that our taxi driver took us to where there was nobody else there apart from locals. It was just the whole trip from beginning to end was filled with the most extraordinary experiences. Um,

some incredible women who signed up for that with nothing more than a Google Doc that basically said come to Bali, not even where you're coming, just come, this is what we're going to get. And we got back, so that was about five weeks ago now, and the communication and the ripples from that are still going. So that was absolutely extraordinary.

And then I had a happy trip to Cornwall and I am just wrapping up the final week of a mastermind group that I've been running since the beginning of the year. So another kind of small space, close conversations thing, which has just been,

unfolding in a very gentle way. Not interestingly, Mastermind sounds like it's business directed. We've discussed things like that as it's come up for people, but it's been a much broader approach. And again, that's just wrapping up. And then I've done a massive redesign of the whole membership hub. Yeah, it's looking good. Yeah. And I've ticked something off my 2025 bingo list. Do you remember I had a bingo list for the year? Mm-hmm.

And on it, I said walking adventure. Anyway, I walked 27K the other weekend with a group of friends from university who I haven't seen for 30 years altogether.

Wow, that sounds fun. That was fun. So I've been having a very fun six weeks. How were you after the 27K? Because you've been keeping fit, haven't you? And you've been to the gym and stuff. So was it okay? Yeah, it was fine, actually. No blisters, a little bit achy, sort of on the inside of one of my knees. And I booked in, found a good massage person. Finding a good person is like the Holy Grail. That's good. Do it again next week.

That's good. Probably won't because it takes a while. Yeah. How long does it take? Well, depends if you're talking just the walking or the walking and then the pub afterwards. Yeah. That's the important part, obviously. That was the important part. Well, the walking was nice too, because it was just everybody just fading in and out of conversation. Something beautiful that happens with the walking when you're walking alongside people.

And people kind of merge in and out of conversations and drop behind. And so it was really pretty special. It was a great day. And because you weren't going up and down hills, you could actually talk and not be like... Yeah. Yeah. We just walked along the river, along the Thames. So it was great. A bit of fundraising and a fabulous day. So...

No art, jokingly. I did make a reel in Cornwall about a sketchbook day where we lugged all our stuff up a cliff and at the end ended up with a blank sketchbook. And I jokingly said, sketchbook course coming.

Where you come with a blank sketchbook and you leave with a blank sketchbook. And to all the people who emailed and messaged me that said, please send me details of the course. There is. Because Alice just laid on a wall and looked at the sea. There is the name for a course that I've had literally about eight years ago, but I've just never got to doing it yet. I keep posted. What about your six weeks?

Well, I haven't been anywhere as exciting as any of that because I've been going between Cumbria and home, backwards and forwards, studios coming on well, but we reached the stage of the project where we're reliant on outside people. And so...

I've been quite lucky, actually, with everybody when I got this place said, oh, there's no trades people and everybody has to wait months to see anyone. And I've been quite lucky. But even so, you can't expect to ring someone on a Friday and then be there on a Monday. So there's a few weeks gap every time you need someone. So we're at the stage now of an electrician coming in.

this week. So I'm waiting for him, waiting for the men who are coming to paint the cement floor, which has gone down concrete floor. So it's probably, I was hoping we'd be done by May and I think it'll be more like July. Yeah. Probably. So that's not too, too bad. That's two months later than planned. And it's not bad. And a lot of it, it really is dependent on just waiting for people to be able to come and do things. Um,

But apart from that, when I've been back at home, I'm running a course at the moment that's coming to the end called Momentum, which was about building momentum for a body of work. And so in the process of developing the teaching for that, it was great because it got me to go through the whole process from beginning to end of working in sketchbooks and on sheets of paper and then mind maps and developing ideas. And then now I'm on with a series of paintings and

So my routine has worked out to be here over Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, working here on the building or on the garden or on something and then going home and working Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday on recording for my painting, my series, which I'm just videoing myself doing and then using those videos to make content. Yeah.

And so it's worked into quite a nice routine that has got me into my studio a lot more than when I was at home all the time. It's like that concentrated, oh, I've got to do it now because I've only got these few days. So I'm making a series and what I'm working on is I'm taking all the panels that I've had over the years that either didn't get finished or did get finished but was not sold and

And I found 20 panels of different sizes, everything from 10 inches up to great big ones. I sanded them all completely back so that there's texture from collage and paint and stuff, but nothing else. And then I'm working over them and it's turning out to be about...

I've had some really tough years, as you know, and some hard things have happened. And it's turning out to be about the present over the past. It's turning out to be like, right, so all that's done now. And you can either hang on to it and keep looking at it and keep thinking, oh, that painting didn't work out or that one didn't sell. Or you can...

start again with now because all we ever have is now and I know that's a cliche but in the last few months it's actually gone into my brain properly that we only ever have now and so all the future planning and all the past regret and all of that is

utterly pointless so I didn't know that's what I knew I was going to be painting over the past but I didn't know what I was going to be creating but now what's coming out is really joyful and a lot more colour than I usually use a lot more bright colour than I usually use and I'm just going with it because that seems to be what's happening what do you feel like

So it's been, I think, I think that's been it for me. I've made a couple of little trips. Oh, I had a lovely trip. I will just say down to Warwickshire to visit someone in hospital. And while I was down there, I stayed in this village called Abbotsmorton.

Warwickshire and I have never stayed anywhere so beautiful in my entire life it was like chocolate box those Tudor houses white with black timbers thatched roofs every house had a thatched roof little red phone box that still works church from the 12 1200s

Nobody there really, just, you know, regulars walking their dogs, locals walking their dogs. And I went with my best friend and he's a real city person. And he, on the first day I said, oh, John, what do you think of this place? And he said, it's got no heart, has it? And I said, what do you mean? It's beautiful. And he's like, is it? Yeah, there didn't seem to be any heart to the place.

And I was saying to him, that's because you don't live rurally. The heart to this place is here, but you can't see it. These people all meet up and they all help each other and they all do things, but you just can't see it because there's no...

that everyone's going to or no bar that everyone's meeting up in, but there is a heart. So anyway, he found it completely tweet and uninteresting and I found it so peaceful and beautiful and soft and lovely. So that was a nice little break. But it's interesting even that, isn't it? I mean, I can see that those places have heart and community and history and they're beautiful places.

But I don't feel excited or inspired by them. Whereas last week, I've got my daughter home from university and we were like, oh, what should we do? Let's do something this way. It was on a Monday night and we thought, let's see what's on at the theatre. And so we had a little browse around and she found a play that we thought, well, we'll go to that on Wednesday. And it looked good. We didn't really know what it was. And when we got to the theatre, which is called the Soho Theatre,

The play was one that had won awards at Fringe Festival, but it was only 65 minutes long. It was amazing. It was about it was kind of three girls coming of age play, brilliantly written, poignant, funny, sad, all the things that a play should be. Anyway, we got to the end of it and we went downstairs and we realised they were selling the play script. So we were in the queue for that and you could buy five of 15 of the old ones. So we were choosing them.

And then we were chatting to the lady and we realised that this place had three different performance venues with short things every night. So we were like, oh, well, there are more things going on tonight then. And she said, yeah, three more things later at nine o'clock. So we said, what's on later? So we picked one of those randomly and we said, OK, we'll have tickets for that too. Quick peek.

pizza in between and I came out thinking I've lived in London my whole life every time I go in I discover something new how can we not even have realized that this was here and I just I love the fact that it's so multi-layered and you every time you go in you're broken outside of your bubble and

And people were out and they were, obviously they'd been at work and it was just really restorative to see everybody out. This is before the gorgeous weather came to, you know, out doing things, busy, discussing, laughing. You don't get that in village life. No, that's not restorative for me. That's draining. I feel all those people's tiredness and rushing around and I feel it all.

So I can do like two hours in the city. Yeah. Like even when we went to New York, I have to go back to my hotel room for a bit and just like be on my own because it's too much. Yeah.

But anyway, yeah, he was definitely not impressed. And also he doesn't like the prettiness. So we went to Broadway in the Cotswolds and I was like, look at this, because I love old buildings. He studied history in college. I didn't. I love history. And I was like, I can walk down the streets and picture like from the 1600s on, what was it like and who lived here and what...

And he's just seeing the gift shops and the, the like cuteness of it. Yeah. And I decided, yeah, I'm really suited to just being rich because I like places where rich people live. I like the peace and calm of rich life. When I was in California and I went walking down the docks where all the yachts are, where the really, really rich people's yachts. I'm like, yes, this is peaceful. I could live like this.

Sadly, that is not my life. However... It's a good thing you live in the middle of the countryside then. It's a good thing I live surrounded by cows and sheep, yes. Yeah, there we go. All right. Well, yeah, busy, busy few weeks. I mean, certainly I feel like it has taken me and lots of...

different directions and there have been lots of times where I have felt really lit up in a way that I probably haven't felt for a few years and I think actually having the pause from and time has really allowed me to really feel that and notice how how different I feel when there's more space for spontaneity yeah and and to me too in a different way because I

I was saying to you, I find spontaneity about a routine thing like the podcast quite hard. We've been saying we'll just do it when we feel like it, and I find that quite hard. However, making this course that I made, it's six months long, so I had the idea for it in December. We launched it in January, and I made the course as we went along. Mm.

And that I was alive doing that. That was so interesting to me and just, and loving everyone's progress and loving my own progress doing it. And the spontaneity of that has been fantastic. Cause it's like creative energy. It's new. I've never done it before. Love it. But I find with things that go on and on and on, like my membership, for example, the things that continue and continue, I have to be rigid in my routine.

Or else I think I would drift off. I don't like routine. I don't like doing the same thing. So if I don't make myself stick to routine,

But I did learn in that break that, yeah, it's the new things I love. I would almost be happier making a new course every year than... I don't think I could do it every year. I think that was the course I'm teaching now was the accumulation of a few years of my own development. So I wouldn't have something new to give in another year. It might take another five years, but...

Yeah, I really enjoyed that. So that brings us on to how are we going to bring up the big subject? How are we going to talk about it? Well, I think the first thing to talk about, which it does slightly feed into it, is that, you know, there has been a gap. And part of that reason is because

You've taken on the bulk of this, but Spotify suddenly, randomly removed over 100, up to 100? I think it was about 70, but I'm not sure, to be honest. Because at one point, I remember I looked and it said, oh, there are only 170 episodes. Oh, so it was more than I thought. It's a few. And so it might be that if you're looking back, you'll notice that there are episodes missing. So...

Tell us about what's happened because we've been doing a Louisa's doing battle with computer says no. Well, I got some emails out of the blue because I have the account where our podcast hosted. I got some emails that said, your podcast seems to have violated copyright and we will remove some episodes if we don't hear from you. And I was completely in a whirlwind of busyness at the time they came in.

I forwarded a couple to you or one to you and said, I don't know what this is. This has come through. I don't think I fully... I was away in Cornwall not looking at my email. You were away and didn't look at your emails. I don't think I fully digested what they were saying to me. It was just another one of those things that comes in. Then I got a second email that said, since you didn't get back to us, we are now removing...

this episode but what happens is instead of telling you one email we're removing 100 episodes they send you 100 emails we are removing this episode we are removing this one so my email box was suddenly full of we are removing episodes I started panicking I messaged you I said I can't answer all these because every single one you had to click on a link and fill in a form yeah

So after my little paddy and meltdown, when I said, I just can't do this, I haven't got time. A few days later, I did some Googling and I found out, because the only music, it was about music and the only music we have is our theme song. And I found out that the man who wrote it, a man called Kevin MacLeod. Who we've credited on every single show notes. And it was a fully open music license that anybody could use.

Yep. And he does that with lots of music. He's written lots of pieces of music and he's allowed them to be used. I found his website and he had a post on there saying what's going on with Spotify. And then he listed a lot of his music, not including the one we use, but he said all these tracks are

And podcasts have been pulled off Spotify saying they don't have permission, but it's not to do with me. And I am trying to get Spotify to understand that I want people to be able to use my music. And he said, if you know of another problem other than this one, please let me know. So I wrote to him and said, yeah, we're using this. And so he's added that to his list now. Monkey Spinning Monkeys is the song we use.

And he wrote back actually very nicely and said, thank you. And I'm really sorry. And please keep battling them because I'm trying on my end. So then I, he gave me some language to use. He said, try saying this. And I, it was just, you know, this is licensed by this man. He's written this on his website. He, and I cut and pasted that and I sent it off to one appeal and, and they wrote back and said, we've reinstated your episode. So I was like, ah,

So then I sat there, I think it took about two hours to click on every link and fill in that form over and over and over again with what he gave me, just cutting and pasting, cutting and pasting. And they reinstated all of them so far except two. That's not bad. They have randomly decided that two, they're not going to accept. With the same music. So I've, same music. So I've written back again with the same information to those and we'll see how

But you couldn't get any help. If you spoke to Spotify chat, they said, this is a special team. You have to fill in the form. There was no way to speak to the specialty. It went round in circles, didn't it? Yeah. And just getting automatic replies. And I still suspect that's why we've not put a theme song on this episode. Cause I still suspect this might come up again and we might get them removed again and they might just disappear. And yeah,

ultimately, unless you host your own podcast, which some people do. Wow. Apparently some people, because I went on Reddit, which I use quite a bit, and I asked for help in the podcasting forum and said, does anyone know about this? Quite a few people had had the same problem. No one had an answer for me, but quite a few people had lost episodes.

And just a couple of, you know, those kind of superior, obviously men who said, well, if you don't host your own podcast, what do you expect? And what do they mean when they say that? Because there's this man was hosting. The particular man I'm thinking of was using WordPress and literally hosting his own and doing his own RSS feed out to the. But then other people said, if you if you pay,

So other people said, if you pay, you will get better service and Spotify, you're not paying, it's free, which is true. We used a free service that got bought by Spotify and we just ended up with Spotify. So they said, you know, it's better to pay for one of these services where you get customer service and you can speak to someone, which I think is probably true.

probably I mean that's true with everything isn't it I mean memberships you know we had something our membership now is in Mighty Networks and there was a bit of a tech thing and we got you know we emailed them about it and we got three people on a zoom call helping us about it and then at the end of the zoom call we said what do we need to do and they said oh no nothing we'll do it for you and it'll be done in 20 minutes can you imagine getting that from Facebook or Instagram yeah you know

Anything that's free is going to be a bit like this. But I mean, frustrating. And I think I just felt we know from, you know, your messages that have come in over the years and people now who are discovering it, actually what a treasure trove of sometimes we think quite random resources. But, you know, there is a this is a body of work. And it was just taken away. And it was just removed. And there was something quite shocking in that.

We are actually, my team, I can't remember who I asked to do it, so I apologize to that person, but we are downloading all of the episodes. Once they're put back up, I'm going to download them all and keep them in Google Drive. Okay. Because I want to have them if this happens again. If we want to, then we can put them somewhere else, even if it's just YouTube, we can put them somewhere. Yeah.

Maybe it won't happen now. It's happened once. Maybe that's it. It'll be marked as okay. But I just feel it could be something else next time. It could be we've decided that art's banned and we're not doing art anymore or something. You never know.

It does raise an interesting thing, though, because there were a couple of people that I was talking to about it and they said, can you not just edit out the music and re-upload it? And, you know, there were a few things in that. One, no, because we didn't keep all the original recordings and all the edited recordings. And we've had...

At different points, some people have done some editing on a different platform. You've got some that you've edited. I've edited in iMovie. I've switched computers. So all my old videos in old iMovie are on an old computer. And also there's a limit to how much stuff you can keep up.

and store. So even if we could do that, would we even have the time or the energy to go back through almost 300 episodes and strip out music that appeared at various points in it? Sorry, that's sorry. No, if you, if you are thinking of doing a podcast, somebody said to me that they always upload a version with music and a version without music and

because they've had this problem over and over again. So that's a possibility. Or you just store your original files, like in Google Drive or something. But I think if you're using... I think the lesson for me was I am storing my own stuff if it's not everything I make. Like if it's on YouTube and it disappears, if it's a YouTube video, fine. But my course materials and things...

after this, after we get done with the podcast, we're going to download those course videos because I tend to think, oh, it's in Kajabi now. I don't need to keep the original anymore. But actually just keeping them is probably safe when it's somebody else's platform. Even if it's just that they went bankrupt one day or a giant hacking thing happened, like happened to Marks and Spencers and everything got wiped out. Yeah. I just think I'll probably keep, but not everything, but just some things.

It is tricky, though, because I think you do trust these kind of hosting and cloud services, like even if you're keeping them in Google Drive, like...

Not everything. And it did make me think what happened if something happened to that. And I think there is something in, there is, obviously there is historic value in things that you've done until this point, but it's very much like artists hanging on to all their old art. There is value in what's got you from here to this point. But actually the exciting part is what happens from now on in. Mm-hmm.

I think we both reacted very differently to this. If this had happened three years ago, I think we would have been emotionally more distressed about it than either of us actually were. I certainly felt, well, that's kind of annoying. And I do think it's worth keep poking them because I think it's one of those things like when you call BT because you're

phone lines gone down and they keep saying it's a problem in the house it's a problem in the house and you think no it isn't and on the sixth time you get a person who actually listens yeah and you know they say that they say that even when the post is just up the road which they have visited 15 times because it's always the same problem they still say it's in your house not that this has happened to me but i'm just saying

Yeah. But I think the thing is, it was easier to say, okay, it would be sad if it disappeared, but...

You can't battle for it. It's like, okay, let it go. If it's meant to go, it's meant to go. So it's meant to come back because it came back. So good, for now it's all there. Good for now it's back. But I think my point is it's true for artwork and everything else that we do in life, you know, hanging onto clothes in your wardrobe, all sorts of things that people keep because they feel they need them. And when they're suddenly taken away, particularly if it's taken away without choice, there's an immediate kind of, oh,

response but actually then when things settle down it's okay you move on and you do you do new things and I think if you can be more proactive about doing that then it gets easier it didn't I was just like okay what does this get to look like now

Do you know, it's slightly off tangent, but at the same time as that was happening, we had an alert that all chickens have to go locked up because of bird flu. And I know it isn't though it does. And that means I have three, which I inherited. They're not even mine and they wander around between properties. And now I have to house them. And first of all, I don't want to lock up free range chickens. And secondly, I don't want to lock up free range chickens.

I didn't know how. And I was just like, my first reaction was a complete emotional meltdown. It was like a baby. I was like, no, I'm not. It's not my problem. I don't see why. And I had that whole meltdown. And then I,

We came up with a solution and now they're safely housed. They're actually quite happy in their new house. It's quite a luxury house, but it was the same. I had a better reaction to the podcast thing because that had happened because I thought, actually, you had that big emotional meltdown and then it was all fine and they're happy. I was like, I can't live here anymore with unhappy chickens. You should have seen me. I was like, I can't lock up innocent chickens. Yeah.

but

because of that then with the podcast I was like right don't do that again because it always ends up that you calm down yeah so why have the big like meltdown first why not try and be calm about it first and think what's the worst that could happen okay the worst that could happen is some episodes go missing and maybe my big fear was they would ultimately take everything yeah because if those went ultimately they get rid of the rest as well and then all of our work would be gone yeah

But then, okay, it wouldn't be gone because we did it. We got the benefit of it and other people did. So yeah, I think that, I think the, I think chicken gate helped me cope with podcast gate. Do you know what I think helped me cope with it?

But so so when I was away for this retreat, which obviously I planned for, I prepared for, I had stuff in my suitcase that had been well packed. I was going to be traveling around. So for the first part, I personally was going to somewhere where you're quite high up in the hills and it's cooler, which I thought, well, that's good. That would ease me into the heat. But there were lots of different things going on. Anyway, I was traveling on my own. I arrived at midnight and

at um barley main airport standing at the luggage carousel a few cases come out not that many and then after quite a while the belt stops moving and i found find somebody and i said oh is it moving has it moved to a different number and he said no no that's it for this flight and i was like ah okay well my case isn't on it then

And he said, well, then you need to go and talk to the airline desk. So there I was with my taxi driver, WhatsAppping me saying, are you OK? And I'm like, I'm going to be here a little bit longer because I've got to report lost luggage. So I spent that first night on my own, having planned and packed and prepared for something, thinking, hmm, what does this get to look like now if all I have for two weeks is my little airplane backpack,

which had one bikini that I happened to have bought at Heathrow Airport randomly that I hadn't even tried on and one kind of dress that I'd shoved in right at the last minute. Oh, that's lucky. Otherwise you'd spend a week in a bikini. Well, all my visions of kind of, you know, all the things that I'd brought to do and oh, just, and I was like, okay, how does this get to look? So that was a very interesting first night. It's never happened to me before.

um lost luggage but I was like really now on this trip this is where you're giving me the chance to have a go what this feels like and they just kept sending emails that says if we can't find you we'll send it back to your original destination I was like no oh no because I bet there were no shops where you were either so there was nowhere to get anything else no no

Anyway, did it arrive the next day or not the next day? It took it took a bit longer than that. But yeah, one day it just kind of popped up about two or three days later. So wow.

Yeah, so that made the podcast seem like small potatoes. Yeah. And there were, you know, there were a lot of things like that. And I think this is the interesting thing is that so often we expect or somehow anticipate, I don't know, maybe our brain does it to us because if we really knew what was coming around the corner in terms of hiccups and challenges, probably we'd never get out of bed or bother doing anything. This is true.

I think my triggers in both of those situations, my trigger is when it's out of my, when it's an authority figure telling me something has to be a certain way that I don't want. So this was Spotify and I don't know, North Yorkshire. Bird flu man. Bird flu man, whoever bird flu man is. Yeah. You don't get to tell me. Yeah. And,

And also I was like, hang on, isn't there like one gazillion birds flying around in the sky? And I've got to keep three chickens locked up. How is that going to solve bird flu? But anyway, that's what we did. Yeah. So, yes. So we had the Spotify drama and that and that's partly why we've not been here. Also, we were just busy.

I think we were busy. There was a week where we tried getting it and I was away and then the next week you were away and I think that kind of comes with it too. Yeah. Also, we've just had a whole conversation about bird flu and suitcases and the podcast is called Art Juice. Yeah. So maybe we should get back to what the subject of the podcast is. And maybe that is our issue is that...

It has also for me become increasingly, it's become increasingly apparent to me that I'm repeating myself often when we do this podcast.

And that because I'm repeating myself, going back to what we were saying about loving the spontaneity of something new in my case, that loving doing something new, that I had not as much energy for doing this because it felt like, oh, here I go again, telling my same stories, saying my same things.

which there is one listener we had for a while who probably agree with that. Who was that person who really couldn't bear me? And any time I said something, they just wanted me to shut up. I can't remember their name, but anyway. Oh, Fuzzball, somebody Fuzzball. They kept telling me how awful I was. But I did feel a bit like that. And I felt like both of us were losing energy for doing this. Like the energy was moving away from this.

I think it's like, like now I've really enjoyed this conversation and a little part of my brain is going, well, we could just do this. We could just do this. This is fine. And it is fine. And yeah,

But it's not art juice. And I think there are times where we would message each other and say, well, what are we going to talk about today? And either it was a topic that we've spoken about before. Nothing's actually changed. It's there. We've spoken about it before. Or it's something that we don't particularly want to spend time talking about, like digging into like marketing or Instagram. I mean, not an Instagram algorithm expert. Nobody is these days. And I know it's frustrating sometimes.

but I don't I don't think either of us wanted it and it's never been a how to do xyz podcast no and I've never I've never enjoyed I don't particularly enjoy interviewing people I know you do more than I do I don't particularly enjoy that not because of the people who are always lovely but because of what it requires of me that I find difficult yeah

So that's never been a route I wanted to go with it either, to take it into having guests, because then that is just a lot of work as well. It's more prep and organising and planning. It definitely takes longer when there's guests.

But that was one of the things that I was sad about is that if the podcast goes, then there isn't a platform for that because I know that it's made a difference to those people. And I think it's really interesting to hear those voices and discussions very often from people who aren't, you know, in inverted commas, names or, you know, they're not experts. They're just telling their story. And I think that's something that's quite important to me. So that was something that I was holding on to.

Anyway. And I did say to you, you could continue with that and I would be okay with it. Like I would be okay if you wanted to continue that. You've always enjoyed that, whereas I haven't. And I would be okay with it carrying on. And I've always felt very strongly because we've had times in the past where I've said I'm struggling with the...

with the regularity of every Thursday, this is a requirement of me. This has to be done every Thursday. And we've, and for you, that's felt easy for you. And that's felt a bit, a bit too systematic for me. And there was a point at one point where you said, well, it's okay. I'll carry on. And the same is true now when you said that I could carry on. This for me has always been something that we started back in 2019 and

six years ago we started it together not having an effing clue what we were doing quite frankly we somebody said to me the other day how do you market a podcast so successfully and I said don't ask me because I have no idea we never did any marketing we never did anything we don't we haven't done fancy youtube shorts we haven't done clips we've put about three on youtube

I think what we had done is we had built a small, I mean, in the context of the world, but an audience. We had built a following or an audience that

And that is people often ask that question. How do I market paintings? How do I market a course? It's like you don't. You build an audience of people and then you tell them what you've got. But you can't just shortcut that whole first part. So that's the only reason we had any listeners is that we already each of us had our own group of people that we could bring to it.

Yeah. But we've never, yeah, we never, we tried a few things and then just never stuck to them. We tried. Yeah. Cause we, cause where's the time and reach when, when the podcast episodes went, I thought, Oh, if only we had had a Facebook group or a mighty networks group or whatever for the podcast, we would have had a way to communicate with listeners, but we never could do that because that would have taken another chunk of energy and time that both of us didn't have.

I think if you're running it as a business and without a doubt, you know, there are probably the majority of podcasts, which are certainly the ones that get big. They're run as a business and people are probably working on them and in them full time. And that's never how we've done this. We've just...

turned up and chatted yeah and that part is probably never going anywhere in our own spaces yeah but we are we are circling around the point here we are aren't we which is which is if you haven't guessed it already this is going to be the last episode of say it art juice

I said to Alice before we started that I have never broken up with anyone. I don't know how to break up with people, friends, relationships, you know, romantic relationships. I can't break up. And so I feel like this is my first ever breakup because I'm breaking up with our listeners. That's the part that feels hard. It does feel hard because I know people will be saying, oh, no.

But we love the podcast and we want you to keep going. And we feel bad about that, both of us. But it's not right for us to keep doing it when the energy is not there for it. It won't be as good. Yeah, I think what having the pause has allowed me to see is that, yeah, I feel like there is more space for me to spring up in other ways and experiment with doing different things, which feels the right thing for me to do now.

And I think that both of us, wherever we go, you're still going to be you doing whatever you do in your space and I'll still be me doing whatever I do in my spaces. And I think that, you know, six years is a long time. It is a long time. And it's amazing, to be honest, because we were not even...

friends or even acquaintance we were we were barely acquaintances when we started this yeah we were online acquaintances who had met in person once I think I don't think we'd even met in person when we did this I think I've not been to my weekend thing I think I'd done your weekend retreat so I met you in the context of other people I didn't we didn't personally have any time

And, and it's, and I just knew when I asked you, oh, Alice is, Alice is the person it will go well with. Don't know why I knew that. Don't know why I thought it would be good, except that I thought you were quite different from me, but also intelligent and funny and would have things to say. Because we're different because I'm the town mouse and you're the country mouse. Yeah. Yeah.

And you're the extrovert and I'm the introvert and you're the spontaneous one and I'm the, well, spontaneous in a different way, but not spontaneous in the way you are. And you're the traveler and I'm the stay at home body. And yet we've got things in common, which is we're both interested in making a life out of

our thing we're both interested in business aspects of it in in our different ways we were both never set interested in just settling for having a hobby of painting and doing a job so we had that in common I think we both have a good sense of humor we sound like we're on a dating app now

I think the part of what's interesting for me about the whole thing about art and how we approach it and fit into our lives is there's the element of what is the actual art making? Like, what are you actually doing creatively? How do you solve and fix those problems visually? But how does it feel when you're just exploring something or painting in a way that feels right? But the part for me that's always fascinating is how does that then leak into other areas of your life?

And how does what you're learning in your art making, how do other areas of your life then feed back into what's important in your art? And I think that I've seen over the years that I've been painting, you know, definitely times where I wanted my art to be expressive and adventurous and times where I wanted it to be quiet. And I think a lot of that is actually what you need. It's just a different way of exploring what you need

And a different way almost to access your own understanding and then your relationships of how you exist in your environment with all the people around you. And

I think the podcast has allowed us a way to discuss all those changes. I mean, I'm sure that we have second guessed and disagreed with previous things that we ourselves have said many, many, many times along the way. And I think it is an easy vehicle to just show up. Like nobody's watching us right now. We know people will be listening, but it doesn't matter what we look like. Mm hmm.

Doesn't matter, you know, we've done them in pyjamas with wet hair, all sorts of things. And a lot of the stuff that you feel like, oh, it has to be perfect and polished, isn't so true on a podcast. And I've loved it for that. I've loved it for that. Because you can't pretend, you can't,

hide from things. I think it's been a gift in that sense. We've been honest, I think, always on here. And sometimes I've had, not very often, by the way, but occasionally I've had emails from people saying, I don't like something you said. I don't like a joke that you made or I don't like...

your opinion about this. I remember when I said something about Picasso and I got this long email about how Picasso mistreated women and how could I be glorifying him as an artist when he mistreated women. And that's your opinion, whoever you are who wrote that email. Then you have to get your own podcast so you can say your opinion because my opinion is

is that in a lot of cases I do, I think we all do in a lot of cases, separate the art from the person. So there've been things like that where,

I even got a letter to my house castigating me for something I said and I started reading it and then I was like, oh, this is an actual handwritten letter which is telling me off for something I said on the podcast. By the way, a complete misunderstanding of what I said, complete misunderstanding, almost willful misunderstanding of what I said. So I just stopped reading it when I realized you've actually written to my house to tell me what a horrible person I am. Yeah.

So we've had those moments, but then we also have so many lovely messages and those are always really surprising to me because we're just having a chat. And then when someone writes and says, wow, something you said, some conversation that you both had really inspired me. We also get a lot of comments from people who appreciated hearing how different we were.

And that there was two perspectives on everything that were often, often not the same perspective. And I'm, you know, what I've really enjoyed and what I've learned from it and what I'm proud of, actually, I feel like I've matured doing this because I can be quite, this will come as a surprise to some people, but I can be quite dogmatic about what I think. And I can be quite sure that I'm right.

And when we talk to each other, because we are different, we have had disagreements over the years. And I feel really good about the fact that we've carried on for six years as professional, respectful colleagues, even when we really disagree or when things have got testy, which they haven't very often, but they have a few times. And

I don't know I've had a relationship like this in my life. I don't think I've had a working relationship like this with an equal where it's where there could have been between us rivalries. There could have been tensions. Yeah, there could have been.

bitterness or, you know, over, we both run memberships, for example, we both do the same things. And you've been amazing about that because I started mine after you. You've been absolutely amazing about it. And also I'm proud of myself that we've maintained this relationship over all that time and that we've showed up for six years and kept doing it. And that I still respect you as much as I did at the

And it could have ended, a lot of these things don't end well. Like it could have been the Beatles and we could be not speaking there. You've got to find a Yoko for that to disintegrate. We'll never know the answer to that one, will we? Oh, that'll get some people sending angry emails. And it wasn't Yoko's fault. I don't get the angry emails, I have to say. Oh, don't you? No, I don't. Maybe that's because you don't read your emails. Could be that. Yeah.

It could be that. Anyway. I've only had a couple. I don't mean to make it sound like I get bombarded. See, but that means you don't open your big mouth and say things that upset people the way I do.

But over the years, I think that's a pretty good track record. We've not been cancelled. We've not said anything so egregious that we've had to be cancelled. It's quite incredible, really, because I'm sure we've spoken a whole load of complete nonsense and absolute BS. Yes. And like you said, I'm sure that we've said something one time and then two years later said the opposite. Yeah. Because people change and we think different things. Anyway, I think we really appreciate that this is going to leave a gap for

And I think this is just to say that, you know, it will leave a gap for both of us too. And I think that's why it's been, it's taken quite a lot of time to come. Like when I got that message from you, I was quite surprised, but also it wasn't unexpected, you know? So you say you'd never done the breaking up, but yeah,

I think you're the one that is often quite brave in making the decisions where I kind of hum around the edges a little bit. You were the one that got it started, essentially. I've been humming around the edges of an idea, but knowing that I couldn't do it on my own.

well that's the generator reacting to yeah and the manifesto something something in me honestly it was a surprise to me because although I've been feeling a bit on all the things I said and feeling like I'm repeating myself and oh I find it I find it quite stressful when we don't have a planned Thursday morning and all of that I still hadn't really thought anything of it and then

What happened was those paintings, I was working on a big painting. I had to cover over completely because it just wasn't going right. But I loved some effects, so I covered them all up. Then I went, oh, wow.

And I started painting again and it all came together. And I said, oh, I made space for... I let go of something and I made space. And then I went, oh, I need to let go of some things in life. Because always, like you said, painting is teaching me really what's happening in life. And I thought, it's the podcast. I need to let go of the podcast. And then I need to tell you now because I know I'm... I know. I just know. And now I need to say. But...

I need to write it down because if I try and say it, it's all going to come out wrong. So I wrote it down in a message because I thought it will all just get garbled and I won't say what I really feel, which is an incredible gratitude to you

for all the years that you stuck with it when it was hard for you to show up on Thursday morning at 10 o'clock like we'd agreed. I really am grateful for that because I've loved doing it and up until just the last few months, it's been one of the highlights for me of what I do. Yeah, I think so. It's been, it's definitely, like I say, when we're talking it's,

It is a highlight. It's massively enjoyable. There's never in the moment where I'm kind of like, actually, that's a lie. Sometimes in the moment, I'm like, oh, really? This again, we're talking about not from what you're saying, but just, okay, we're finding it.

We're finding something, but, but it's not that it's the planning it and the idea of it. And then it has to be edited. And then we're writing the notes and then little things, but they just start to become, they just start to become, but it,

you know, I'm grateful. I have never stuck at anything this, apart from my membership, which started before this. And I'm only, I think I'm only still doing that now because I have the support of other people inside it. This would not have continued this long had it not been both of us together. And I think there's something for everybody to learn in that. Actually, you know, we expect so much of ourselves doing things on our own and most of us are working on our own and doing things on our own.

And I think one of the reasons that this has worked so well is that we do have different strengths and we approach things in different ways. Do you know what I'm thinking as we're talking that there are people listening to this who are going to think, oh, this is leaving a big gap and maybe they should be the people who step in and fill the gap.

By doing this themselves. Because even if we feel like we've said everything we've got to say at the moment, there's lots of other people who haven't said anything yet. And somebody said to me on Instagram the other day, I can't paint because I can't find the light. I can't find the light in this world that we live in. And I said, you have to be the light. Like you can't wait for someone else to shine a light. And I know that sounds like a cliche, but you do have to be the light.

And so if somebody's listening to this thinking, oh no, what am I going to do now when there's no art juice? Maybe you need to be the ones to start the next podcast. Yeah, yeah. Or whatever else it's going to be. I think always. And then we can listen to you. Then we can sit back and tune in every week and just enjoy listening to someone else talking for a while. I think I could do it if we just chatted.

But if we just chatted, it would just be like... It's just going to... Do you know what it is? It's like Only Fools and Horses. Okay, well, explain. Am I Dill Boy or am I Rodney? Any other TV series that you like and enjoy and then they just carry on a bit too long. There is a time when things...

Yeah, they're bringing back Ted Lasso, which finished after three seasons pre-planned, three seasons done, and now they're bringing it back because it was so successful. It could be another Only Fools and Horses. Hope not. Okay, so what does this allow space for you? Do you know? I'm not sure. I still think I have to make a bit more space, and I'm not sure where that space comes in.

But one thing I've learned is it's not space for me to rest. It's space to do the inspiring things which get me painting. So this course, Momentum, has really taught me a big lesson that once

when I'm best, when I'm most creative is when I'm super busy with something I love. It can't be, I can't, it can't be me sitting on an Island with a cocktail, which does sound lovely, but it can't, that can't be it because that won't work for me. So,

And I really need for things to be inspiring. And so what it brought about, I'll tell you what it brought about for me this year is I've been teaching a free course every year in September and I do the same thing every time.

and it works really well and it sells a longer course. And this year I was like, it's got to completely change. It's got to be completely redesigned. I've got to start again, make it bigger and better and longer and do all that. So I'm doing that at the moment. Can you hear the space coming? Yeah, but that is the space to make the new inspiring thing. And then I said to myself, oh, I said to my team, you know what this means, right?

This is going to be amazing. And therefore the course has to be 10 times better than it was because this is too good now. So the course needs redoing. So they were like, and I said, I'm sorry. I know you must really hate working for me because every time we get something in a groove, I go, it has to change. Yeah.

But that might sound counterintuitive of what I just said, but actually I think the going on in a groove with the course has been a bit of a problem now. And this will give me some new energy to revitalize it. It will be, I'm not going to change everything about it, but I'll redo, have some new assignments, have some new ideas in there. And then that creativity of creating that will make more creativity in my painting.

But all of the peripheral things, I think I need to look at where else I can make space for that kind of creativity. So I think what I've learned is for me, it has to be new, new, new, new. If I want to stay energized. Yeah. But, but not, and maybe I'm just not brave enough to throw everything in the air and say, right, what if I made complete space?

And then see what happened. Maybe that'll be next year. I just don't think that's the way you work. You work, I mean, your manifesto is directed. You have a sense of what you want to do and you do it. And that's what you're looking for when you're looking for change. There's a sense of this needs to change, so I'm going to do it. Whereas I think... What does it mean for you? What does... What it means for me is I think just more opportunities to respond to stuff as it comes up. I think that's one of the things...

that made the retreat so incredible was I had a very loose framework of what we wanted to touch on, but you know, people kept saying, you know, they didn't know what was happening from day to day. I sort of did, but also it was in response to what was needed. And we had certain fixed things that we were working around and, and,

genuinely somebody said to me at the end are you tired and I said no I'm not tired at all I've held this space we've done extraordinary things together and it's been because I've totally trusted my own ability to just respond to what was needed in the moment and not just known that I need to do that but I think it's the first time I'd really and it felt so different so

Light is the wrong word because that makes it sound flippant. It felt really solid and grounded and also kind of fizzy around the edges too. And I think just allowing myself to have a little bit more of that, you know, more...

And flexibility in the week. I mean, flexibility is one of is one of my core values and that ability to say, actually, the sun's shining. I'm going to go and do X, Y, Z and I'm going away for three days and I'm booking this and like working like that in response to what I feel I need.

that's super important to me and I'm excited about that it just feels like mental space to be more spontaneous with what I offer and create I think I can it will feel like I've got more opportunity to do things a bit on a whim you know this membership redesign that I've done that has been such a mountain of a project and

But it's been taking up like a lot of my space for the last few months. Part of it because I was avoiding it like a flipping crazy thing because it was too big. I just thought, how am I even going to do this? A bit like if we'd had to rerecord every single one of these, you know, you just can't you just can't do it. So I think it's very interesting that the two things, the completion of that membership redesign and this, again,

are closing at the same time or wrapping up at the same time because I think there's something on the other side. There's always something on the other side of it. And I don't know what it is going to be yet. And, you know, where am I going to be? I'll have a little play with my website. I haven't looked at my own website. I'm still on Instagram. I like the stories. I like the chat. I don't have a big...

course or thing yet that you can sign up for but you know keep in touch and if you're interested then there might be at some point yeah you know I don't feel as driven as when we started I feel easier and gentler and

Yeah, flexible is the word actually, I think. You know, like a dance, like moving. I feel like that with my painting where I don't feel driven from the business aspect or recognition aspect that I did in the beginning with my painting. Now I feel much more interested in making things for me and seeing what happens afterwards.

And not necessarily worry, not worrying if I sell anything or don't sell anything. I mean, I haven't tried to sell anything for nearly a year. My accountant asked for my painting business accounts and that was easy because I don't think since April or May, I haven't put anything up for sale. And it was like, oh, that made that easy. It made it easy to do my accounts. Maybe I should do more of this as long as I can eat.

And I'm really enjoying the freedom that gives because all of a sudden it doesn't matter about anyone else's judgment or, and it doesn't matter about packing things up and it doesn't matter about,

keeping track of things and so I feel less driven in that side of things and the only reason I feel driven with the course creation is that I've seen I love the feeling of creativity I love the feeling of that making that and then the what how that feeds into my painting but I might just be creating stuff for the rest of my life that just goes on a big bonfire when I

eventually shuffle off this mortal coil well there's always and I'd be okay with that there's always going to be a bit of that isn't there I think it's just no interesting to notice where you feel like the parts that anyway we're waffling maybe that's maybe that's what we want you to take away from this though if there's a lesson coming out of this is

where is it for you where could you let go of something or might you want to let go of something where might you want to make space for something what might you want to make space for because I think a lot of what people have got out of this podcast over the years is not any lesson we've given but rather just listening to us and then reflecting on what we've talked about and putting that into your own experience yeah so we're gonna miss you all we are it's gonna be

I still have a little never say never. There might be occasional pop up. Just saying. So don't get rid of it on your subscription feed, Alice is saying. No, don't. Because, you know, part of me is that I could do another, you know, I can do another podcast. It's more interviews and discussions. And also right now, that's not likely to happen. And I'm sitting here today on a Friday morning.

Ask me again next Wednesday. Maybe it will. Who knows? Oh, I don't know. Right. This is very hard goodbye. And it's going to be even harder with no Twinkie Twonkie music. Yes. But it's safest if we don't put the music on it because I don't want to appeal another thing in six months. Yeah. And don't, let's not sing it. Now I'm singing it in my head. Right. Okay. Well, that's that. End of a something.

End of an era. We've finished our Art Juice era. No, but we're like Taylor Swift. When we finally do the Eras tour, this will be our Art Juice era. We never did an Art Juice tour, did we? No, we never did. Oh, well.

Life goes on. They sound like a lot of work from listening to the podcasters. Anyway, I'm delighted to see what comes. And it would never have continued for so long without all of you listening and sharing it. And we both, I think, appreciate that so much. And we know what it gives you. And we're sorry that we are genuinely sorry that...

Really sorry. She says to her smile. We are really sorry that this is the last one. And you'll be all right. You will be all right because some of you are going to start doing it for yourselves and we're going to have a load of podcasts spring up out of this that we're all going to listen to. Yeah. All right. Have a very happy rest of your week. And anytime you need a fix, you can just flip back through that scrolling list

chart and listen again please do because i worked hard to get all those episodes back so i'll find louise on youtube or me not on youtube find us both on instagram find us both on our website and both on our out of date websites that need fixing another thing we didn't have time for yeah all right that's it toodaloo goodbye bye