Steve Macchia — The Gift of Brokenness
33:48 Share

He contrasts the difference between the word organization and the word organism. And then he said, never mistake organization for the organism. Organization is a great necessity, but not an end in itself. Welcome to Life with God, a Renovare podcast, a place for unhurried and thoughtful conversations about interactive life with God.

I'm Nathan Foster, and today's conversation is with author and founder and president of Leadership Transformations, Steve Macchia. In this next series of podcasts, we're going to try a little experiment. My goal is to shift out of the interviewer chair, invite the guests to ask me questions, and join in on the conversation. I've set up conversations with a series of people who I enjoy talking to.

These are all people who, whenever we talk, something good emerges. Something human. Something beautiful. What follows is a perfect start to this new series. I really enjoyed this one. We drop into the conversation where Steve had mentioned he'd been wondering if the rise of Christian spiritual formation over the last few decades was evidence of a movement or a passing moment, a fad of sorts.

Steve spoke with me from his office in Boston, Massachusetts. You had a statement that caught my attention here. I guess a question, something that's effective for the spiritual formation movement or a moment. I wonder if we could talk about that. Let's do it. I'd love your insight. It's been a question that's kind of been bubbling up in my heart and mind and soul this past year or so.

Our ministry, Leadership Transformations, just turned 20 years old a year ago. So we're in our 20th. Congrats. Yeah, thanks. You don't make it 20 years on accident. No, you don't. Yeah, it's God's gift. It's His grace, His kindness to us that we're still around 21 and a half years later.

But I've been wondering, you know, so is this a movement we're a part of, or is this just a moment? Is this just a little blip in the history of the church, or is this something that will actually have some sustenance to it? And what do you think? Are we in something bigger and wider and deeper that's distinguishable in the context of a movement, or are we

still sort of like figuring things out? That's a good question. And I think in one sense, we can't know time will tell. And I've heard my dad say some of those things of, you know, what will people be reading in a hundred years? You know, what will be the kind of enduring pieces? And I think it's worth even asking, you know, reading may not be the continued medium of transferring knowledge. I'm,

Okay, I'm going to just play around with some thoughts here. Go for it. In one sense, I am not concerned in the slightest. I read this book. Do you know Nick Page? I interviewed him recently, but I'd read one of his books years ago on the history of Christianity.

And he's a British guy, a journalist. He's not a kind of proper theologian or even historian. But in reading it, it gave me this picture that you have, basically you have a movement of God kind of in the kingdom bursting forth and wonderful things happening. And then the establishment suppresses it.

And then guess what? Here comes another kind of, you know, and if you take the long view, it's as if

you can't hold it down. It's just the kingdom marches forward, not necessarily actually not in establishments, in institutions, but in people's lives and in the movement of the Spirit. So in one sense, I think we could say whatever has happened, I think historically could be seen as one of those, you know, an expression, but movements corrupt.

I mean, I think we'd be hard-pressed to find any historic movement that stayed true to its foundations.

And what I think you're observing, or at least what I picked up between the lines and what you said was some of the, well, this is a way I would say it, that corporate values, business values has infiltrated basically all social institutions. And I think we could call them worldly values. I don't think it'd be a stretch to call them satanic values. Right.

Because they're dehumanizing, because they're not honoring the dignity and worth of people created in the image of God, treating people as commodities. But those values of infiltrated, I think you're hard pressed to find a ministry that is not wrestling through with these very opposing to the kingdom values.

Right. So, yeah, competition or, you know, people not playing well together or, you know, I think we're going to see that. I don't want to be cynical, but I don't want to be cynical either because I can see all that stuff bubbling up inside of me. Yeah. You know, as well. So I don't want to be blind either. Right. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Over the summer, I read the biography of Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest. And did you know that he didn't write My Utmost for His Highest? His wife, after he died.

She was a stenographer, and she had written out every speech that she ever heard him give. So he died young. He was 43 years old. He was taking care of the sick and the infirmed from World War I, and he was in Egypt working for the YMCA. But he was there, fervently devoted to Christ.

And his main message was about total surrender. His favorite word was abandoned, being abandoned in everything to Christ. And here his beloved wife, who he called Biddy, short for beloved disciple. That's what he called his wife, Biddy? That's what he called his wife.

Biddy took it upon herself after he passed away. So she's preserving his legacy and writing everything that she had taken notes of. And so 50 books have been written by Oswald Chambers, but posthumously. Not one did he create. But in reading it, there's so many quotes about his life and what he thought of

the church and the organized way in which religion gets together. And he contrasts the difference between the word organization and the word organism. And he said that organization must be seen to be the scaffold raised by the organism and must never be allowed to take the place of the organism. There you go.

And then he said, never mistake organization for the organism. Organization is a great necessity, but not an end in itself. And I think where I'm concerned about this quote-unquote movement is that we've become so organizational-minded and profit-focused that our competition can

against or away from each other is eventually going to potentially destroy the very thing that we all admire, appreciate, and have invested all these years in. So is it organization or is it organism? And the organism is that which is life-giving, and the organization is static.

But think of how many times we're making decisions about ministry related to what we can afford, what we can pay for, or what we can strategize to get more of. And that becomes the driving force of our quote-unquote movement.

Am I remembering correctly that a few years ago, you guys at LTI started doing something, was it Arizona or Texas? Is that right? And I remember asking you why. And this is my memory, you correct it, was something like, well, it seems like God's doing something there. It doesn't really make sense strategically, but is that accurate, the story? That's totally LTI's story. It's all based on organic knowledge.

relationship in various places that we don't strategize. I mean, our CELA program, for example, this could be the conversation you and I had is that, you know, we started CELA East and then we had some people coming from Phoenix. So we started CELA West and

from those relationships. And then my board at the time said, well, we've got Sela East and Sela West. When are we going to do Sela North and Sela South? I'm like, well, I don't have any, we don't have any, there's other stuff going on in Chicago. Well, they don't need us in Chicago and they don't need us in Dallas. So I'm not sure we want to go either place. And this gentleman said to me, well, it's because you're not strategic enough. You're not focused on

Making it happen. We'll just quadruple the size of... I'm like, no, I don't see God in that. I see us in that, that we would like to strategize. And so we didn't go Sela North, Sela South. But as God would open doors for us and relationally, organically...

We now have SELA Anglican in the Anglican community and SELA Europe. Go figure. That was never on our radar to go to Europe to start this program.

But we're there, and people are there even as we speak. There's two cohorts that are learning how to be spiritual directors in Europe. So if we can let go of strategy and embrace a more organic, relational, slower motion developing of ministry, then I feel like that feels more like God.

And that's the reason why I wrote The Discerning Life is because I wanted us as leaders to be more discernment-oriented than strategic. Or as my friend Oswald Chambers would say, don't be so fixated on the organization that you forget that there's a life, a real-life organism. Yes. I think the church is the same way, don't you think? I mean, when the church stays...

relational in its focus, I think it's much healthier. It's not lost on me the tension that so many people in leadership face of keeping the lights on and trust and move forward. And I see that with a lot of churches where they

They're growing and they get buildings and now they have buildings. Then the temptation to muscle it forward.

It's interesting when there's a phrase that my dad started talking about years ago, and it's a great conversation. And this, the idea is a great conversation about the growth of the soul and that all through history, people have been having this conversation about how do we grow into Christ likeness? And it's taken many forms and we can kind of piece back through all these wonderful contributions, mostly through books and,

And then I think where he was going with that is that, you know, we get to continue that conversation and, and then pass it on, you know, we add to it and we help refine it. And so all of these old books, the devotional classics are trusted. They come, you know, with a stamp of this has been helpful for, so I think I,

I want to tie that in a little to what we're talking about. I think it's safe to say that the great conversation about the growth of the soul will carry on and that as our

organizations change and some die, the seeds will be planted for new growth. Kind of like a forest, you know, the tree falls down and then lots of little ones spring up, but the kingdom will remain undeterred. So I almost think I want to think that the movement has been going for 2,000 years and it will continue on. It'll just look different and there'll be different voices and different emphasis on

But in the end, people will continue to grow into Christlikeness. I like it. I agree. That's a good holistic view of this movement. But it's not just 50 years old. It's actually 2,000 years old. Yeah. And maybe we can be grateful that we've gotten to speak into the conversation in little ways and

Some of our words will carry on and some of them won't. Exactly. Great. We got to show up. And do cool things in Europe and Phoenix, huh? That's right. Exactly. Yeah. Who would have thought? Hey, a few years ago you wrote a book on brokenness. Have any of your thoughts changed since then? Or grown? Deepened? I think the only thing that's really...

major league changed is that I've realized my own brokenness in spades. And I see, I see the world through different lenses now that, you know, what used to tick me off about ways in which people acted. I'm now seeing them through the eyes of person who sees that we all have quirks. Every one of us is kind of quirky. And if I can embrace my own quirkiness and,

Perhaps I can love another in their quirkiness. I think that the pandemic of a few years ago isolated us so much that we ended up self-editing our own personhood. You can't self-edit. You need to have some rubbing of shoulders and connecting with others. And we came out of the pandemic rather strange people.

because all of a sudden we were angry with each other and the disunity that occurred. And we thought everyone was going to run back to church. And that didn't happen. People said, I kind of like not having to deal with that. So, yeah, brokenness. It's very real. And it's very real in me. And if I pretend otherwise, I'm showboating and unreal.

or unrealistic picture of who I really am. And I want to hang out with people that are willing to own their own brokenness and their desperate need for God. That's who I want to hang out with. That's who I want to learn from, not the ones that always come across as if they're totally put together. And I think even the recent news about eight megachurches

in Dallas, Texas, in the past few months have had major sin-based fallouts of their leaders. You know, broken. These are broken people. But they never had the opportunity to kind of deal with their brokenness because they had to keep showing up and bigger, better, bolder, new, next, now. They had to keep performing.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's a crisis when it's not just one person, but multiple people in the same sort of zip code. That's painful. That's painful. So I think we need to own our own brokenness. I think we need to have companions that help us process our brokenness. Perhaps that's what true community is, loving one another and forgiving one another and

encouraging one another and all the one all the one another passages coming to life for the sake of our wholeness in the midst of our brokenness in a way these these kind of systems crashing down it's just revealing what what's been there and i don't want to point a finger you know because i've got my own propensities and illness and brokenness and

But it's shocking, it's kind of alarming how many times we're hearing of these kind of crises in leadership. And I think the care and the nurture of the soul becomes all the more important. What are your thoughts on brokenness these days? I think I agree with you that the more aware of my own

I use the word quirks. I use the word features. You know, like you get features on a car. You have a more positive word. I'll say that to my wife. I'll go, it's a feature. It's not necessarily what I want, but it's a feature of me. But there is something to the more aware we are of our own humanity, then the more

graceful, grace filled. We are with others. Not that we think, yeah, I think there's a, we can begin to see that there's a lot of really sick and traumatized. I mean, I use that word gently, but it's a legitimate word at, um, and people living out of that. And we're dangerous when we're not aware of our brokenness. Totally. And we're apt to point a lot of fingers at others. Yeah.

And then there's the tension of, like, I don't want to stay there either, right? I want to move towards wholeness and restoration. But I think when we start with a brokenness, that when we move into a healthy life, there's a humility that's baked in. I remember who I've been. Yeah.

I remember my features that can be quite destructive. Yeah, and we can't do it on our own strength. We can't do it on our own willpower. We can't do it because we've got the formula. No. We can only do it by reliance upon God. When you cry out, oh God, have mercy. Show your kindness.

Get us out of this miry pit. We're Christ followers. We're Christian men and women. We're empowered by the Holy Spirit. And we need to remember to be dependent upon God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And so the midst of our brokenness that we have to, I think, cry out, just cry out to God and legitimize every emotion that's attached to that.

Oh, there's a whole conversation right there. Having the courage to look at what the emotions and the drives and the desires. You're back to Oswald Chambers with dependency there. And I think I want to swing this back around to spiritual formation movement moment that for us who are engaged in

in organizations that are trying to steward well an organism, utter dependency for the grace of God, right? Oh, but the grace of God, exactly. And I do think the Chambers, Oswald Chambers word is the key word. That's why I think it's become central to my thought process ever since reading the book. Yeah.

Am I totally abandoned to God? Am I totally surrendering to God? No. Do I desire? Yes, I do. Do I get in the way? Yes. My stubbornness, my know-it-allism, my judgmental attitude. So, yeah, I'm not sure we want to publicize this, but I'm wearing now a ring that I purchased in Poland years ago. And after I finished reading it,

the Oswald Chambers book, I'm like, what can I do to help me remember who matters most in my life? And I used to carry around a pocket cross, you know, just in my pocket. And for whatever reason, a couple of years ago, I just stopped doing that. I always had it in my pocket, but I stopped doing it. So I decided I'm just going to wear this ring because this ring reminds me

that I belong to Jesus Christ. If anyone asks me about it, and my son-in-law has, my mailman did, I mean, people in conversation, they're just, you know what I'm saying? Well, I'm just trying to remember whose I am. And it's tangible. I feel it on my hand all the time because I forget everything.

And I'm a very, I struggle with my own attachments and I need to detach from those attachments and reattach to the priority of God in my life. And so I need that tangible reminder that on one hand, I've got my wedding band, but on the other hand, I've got

Kind of my Jesus ring. It's silly, perhaps. And I don't know how long I'll wear it. I may just wear it for another month or two. I have no idea. But I was moved by his total abandonment. And all of his teaching, all of his preaching, all of his service was based on Jesus.

a desire to surrender his life. He even had strange ideas like, anyone asks you for something, you just give it to them. You never question it, you just give it to them. Even if you know they're going to throw it away or destroy it. He would just say, if they asked you, you should give it. Jesus said something kind of similar to that, I think. So the saints have a lot to teach us. They do. It's good, those symbols. Those are good.

Really good. Hey, thanks for the conversation, Steve. Did we do what we wanted to do? I'm not sure. Oh, we did. That's exactly what I wanted. Yeah. No, I love where it went. And I leave the time with things to think about and insights that emerged. So it's a gift. And it seems to happen every time we talk, Steve. Yeah, you too, man. Never forget.

And I'm happy for the world to know this as well. When I was in one of my darkest moments, it just so happened that you were in my house spending the night with Ruthie and me. And I'll never forget that breakfast at our kitchen table. And you spoke life and health into me that gave me courage to face a very dark and difficult experience. And I'll just never forget that.

And it's because you listened to me. You attended to my soul. And then you just said a few things. And there were a couple of questions and a couple of keen insights that buoyed me up to face the dragons. And I'll never forget that. And I'm grateful. Thank you. And then you encouraged me to use colored pencils in my journal. Yeah.

I still do. You still do? I still do. I think of you all the time because your simplistic little notebook there that was your life journal and you always wrote in pencil. You sometimes used color pencils. You wrote slowly, prayerfully, beautifully. So I just want to thank you for it.

touching my life and impacting me as a spiritual companion that God sent at just the right time. And so talking about brokenness, we can't be self-healers either. We trust in God. We cry out to God, just like the psalmist in our prayer books, the Psalms. Every emotion is there and every emotion is legitimate.

We cry out, but we also need a friend. We're not supposed to go through dark, difficult times alone. Yeah, that's right. So the community matters in going from brokenness to wholeness. The other thing is, you know, another book that I love is Heinz' Feet on High Places. Yeah, yeah. Remember that? Yeah.

A book that I always thought was for my mother or my grandmother. I was talking about deers and all this kind of stuff. But that book is the, it's that, what is it? Allegory, I guess is what it's called officially, of walking through life, holding the hands of sorrow and suffering. And every time we let go of one of those hands,

we end up grasping the hand of one of those evil cousins, pride, selfishness, attachments. So it's dangerous to walk through life when you aren't holding sorrow and suffering because that's what we're promised. We're not promised a rose garden. We're promised suffering. And when you think about the early days

Early Christians, they suffered miserably for standing up for Jesus. Suffered miserably. Death, beatings, intimidation, being ostracized, shamed, ridiculed, belittled, all because of their allegiance to Christ. So we're a bunch of spoiled kids. And our ministries aren't going like we want them to. Absolutely.

Exactly. We're not winning the race. Exactly. We're going to push and shove each other to the finish line. I love that book, and it's just a great reminder. And then part of the allegory is, as you're going up the hill, like Heinz feet on high places, you can always cry out to the shepherd, and the shepherd will always be there for you.

But don't lose the hand of sorrow and suffering and only hold the hands of your evil cousins that are going to send you off in all the wrong directions. Cry out to the shepherd. Cry out to the shepherd to help you, to come to your aid. It's a great little book. It's a life changer. Because I think it's the right message. I think it is the central kind of gospel message. There's something we can trust with that. Yeah.

Sorrow and suffering is part of our story, our brokenness, and it's a gift. And that was Steve Machia, founder and president of Leadership Transformation. Steve's written a number of books, including Crafting a Rule of Life and The Discerning Leader, An Invitation to Notice God in Everything. Also, Broken and Whole, A Leader's Path to Spiritual Transformation.

I've interviewed Steve a number of times about these books and other topics. You can find our conversations in episode 48, 56, 159, and 230. Steve is also the host of the Discerning Leader podcast. He does wonderful work there. You can learn more about Steve, his writing, and his team at leadershiptransformations.org. I'm Nathan Foster, and you've been listening to Life with God, a Renovare podcast.

We're grateful for all of you who help make this work possible. You can support Renovare and this podcast with a tax-deductible gift at renovare.org slash donate. Renovare is a Christian ecumenical renewal effort offering resources and experiences to help people become more like Jesus.

You can find a collection of thoughtfully curated articles, podcasts, webinars, online classes, as well as information on events and our institute on our website at renovare.org. This podcast is edited by Will Rutherford, produced by Grace Pouch and Brian Moorcon, who also wrote the opening song titled Be Kind. Until next time, be well, friends, be well.