🎙️ New Episode Changing Careers & Finding Purpose with Nathan Lige | Business English for Global Professionals
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This is the Real English Conversations Podcast, where we help you to communicate clearly and confidently in the conversations that matter most in the workplace and your professional life. Hey everyone, it's Curtis here from Real English Conversations, the Real English Conversations Podcast, and I'm really excited to share today's episode with you, especially if you've ever dreamed of doing something more creative.

or meaningful with your life. My guest today is Nathan Ligge, a designer and developer at Open Owl Studios, the company behind games like Mythwind, a cozy cooperative game that's all about building a world and enjoying the journey together. What's really cool about Nathan's story is that he didn't start out in the game industry at all. He had a solid job in tech and even project management.

But something deep inside of him told him it just wasn't the right fit. So during the chaos of the COVID years, he took a risky leap, followed his dreams and his creative instincts, and ended up building a new career doing something he truly loves.

storytelling, and game design. So whether you're improving your current English level because you live and work in an English-speaking country, or you just feel stuck in your current job and you want to know how to change that and what to do next, Nathan's story is sure to inspire you to start where you are, but to find

what you have and what you need within to take that next step to something better. So please welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the Real English Conversations podcast, Nathan Liggy. Yeah, pleasure to be here. Yeah, it's been a while. We used to work together. We used to live together in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. So it's, man, I don't know how long it's been since we've even, you know,

touch base or talk to each other. But it's super cool to hear what you're doing now. I had no idea because we haven't really touched base. We've got our own lives and, you know, thousands of kilometers or miles separate us. So let's start at the very beginning, Nathan, before the board game career, maybe when you were younger or just starting out. Did you

ever imagine yourself working in board games or with board games or storytelling? And where did that creative spark come from? Well, I think that like anybody who has board games as a hobby or most people who play board games have this little kind of itch that they think like I could

design a board game. But if you spend any time looking into it, it doesn't seem like a very profitable endeavor. It doesn't seem like a very lucrative path to go down. So it's just, it's like a passing fancy. So I never really realistically considered it. There was always a desire for some level of creativity. We worked together at Blockbuster Video back in the day, and that led to the sort of feeling of like, I want to make movies, you know, and that was a creative itch I wanted to follow. And I worked at a TV station and that was, you know, kind of scratching that itch. And

And certainly have just wanted to do creative stuff in my own hobbies, writing and creating. So there's always been a pull there. That's always in conversation with what's practical. I have to provide for a family and make sure the bills are paid and all that kind of stuff. So it was never really intentional, but the appetite was always there. Nice. You were working in...

tech company or for a tech company and managing a support team. What was happening in your life at that time that you started thinking, maybe I want something different? Well, that was a job that came along at a good time for me because immediately prior to that, I was also working for a different tech company and that didn't end completely.

great, but I then just needed a job. And I didn't necessarily have a passion for working in managing. And what I was doing at the time was I was managing a support team company that I moved to install wireless networks for hotels, for hospitality. And so there was a big learning curve and I enjoyed the learning curve. I really enjoyed the people that I worked with, but I got to a point where my mandate was to get this support team working at a high level.

And I felt like I'd really done it. You know, a big part of my managing style is to try to make people independent. And that's a good thing. But I got to a point where I felt like they didn't really need me that much because they were independently capable, which was good. But it meant like my eye started to wander a bit and I was interested in

maybe getting back to pursuing project management, which is one thing I had done previously. So I was, I'd say that although there were a lot of good things there, like it was stable. I really liked my boss. I got kind of complacent and just wasn't challenged anymore. And so they actually ended up selling the company. And I thought that here's an opportunity for me to pursue something a little different. And the new company said to me, you can stay on as the support manager. Um,

And I said, I'd rather do project management. And they said, great, let's do that. So there was an opportunity there. But I found out pretty quickly that I didn't really enjoy working for that particular company. So I wanted to get out. I just I wasn't willing to kind of like hang around. And I don't have a lot of patience for working for employers who I don't respect and I don't feel like they respect my time, you know.

If I don't feel like they respect that work-life balance, then I'm probably not going to hang around. So there was a lot going on in my life at that time. And so I hung on a little bit longer than maybe I would have otherwise. But I just felt like I needed to find something different. Okay. And this was around the time that COVID hit and

Many people, I guess, I don't know, the majority of people would have stayed in a stable, comfortable situation, but you took a risk and left during this time. Maybe it just happened to happen at the same time during COVID, no less. What gave you that courage to take that risk and to take that leap? Well, there's even a little more context. I mean, COVID really did land really just as I had left, and I'd already kind of given my notice, kind

had just become aware of this thing that was spreading in China and not really fully grasping the size of the impact. But we also, my wife and I had just sold our home. We were just taking possession of a new home. There was a lot of banking stuff going on.

that I kind of waited around for before quitting because I wanted to make sure everything looked stable and whatnot. We also had some bad health challenges in our family. My dad had relapsed in his cancer and my mom was diagnosed with ALS. So it just was like a lot going on. We were renovating the new home. It was a big overload. And I think part of me was just thinking, I need a break. I don't want to also be going to work at this place where I don't want to be

We have a little bit of money in our pockets from selling the house. So I'll take a little break here. I guess the courage would, I would describe it just as a willingness to kind of try to create a little room and space for myself. That was the focus, you know, in a stressful time to do that because COVID showed up and pretty quickly I was like, oh, wait, I think jobs are gonna be really hard to find. So my paradigm shifted as a result very quickly.

Yeah. It's tough to stay strong in tough times. You're a very faithful person, a very faith-driven, or you've got your belief in a higher power. Does that come into keeping that strength when it's so overwhelming, when everything is going on at the same time, selling your house, health problems happening within your family and

things like that, there, there, there's something above and beyond that, that, that keeps you, you strong as well. Right. Yeah, I think so. There's a, a reliance on this idea, this sort of core belief that things are going to be okay. Things are going to work out. Uh,

You know, there's always kind of two sides to a coin. And I would say that sometimes I get a little too, you know, that feeling is a bit too strong and I need to have a little bit more agency in fixing my situation. But it does give me stability in those situations.

of like a lot of challenge. And that season lasted for a long time because I mean, even when I started working, you know, it was contract work and there were other part-time jobs I had to do to kind of keep it together. And there was a lot of emotional stress going. I would say it was the most emotionally stressful time of my life really for about two years. And so...

I'm very grateful to have that core belief that things are going to work out and that I know I've got the support system of my family and my faith. And I don't really kind of know what the day-to-day would have been like without it, because even with it, it was a real challenge. Yeah. Well, it's been a tough year for even myself going through many changes in my life and a death of a cat that

was part of my life for a very long time. And, you know, finding that drive and inspiration to record podcasts again has been a very, you know, challenging time for me. But now I'm back to recording new episodes and having people like you join on to tell your inspirational story of how you get through those tough times too, really helps my listeners and my audience to, you

you know, take a step back and think, okay, how can I, even though it's the roughest, hardest time, there are other people like me and like Nathan who have gotten through these challenging times where it's like, oh man, I don't even know if I can wake up tomorrow. I feel so bad, you know? But you find that courage and the strength and you tap into your support system to move on.

So that's really inspirational to stay true to your beliefs and your support system. And that while you've been through probably worse situations, so this is just another tough time that you have to manage and get through. Talking about tough times managing and getting through, you've always had a hobby for writing, but

You didn't really plan at first to become a full-time writer, but when the opportunity came up, you jumped right in with both feet. Can you walk us through that moment where you said, okay, I'll give this a shot? Yeah, I think, again, I had that moment there where I wasn't working and to find work and

I was grateful to have some other part-time jobs just to kind of help pay the bills and stuff. An opportunity came up when a mutual friend of ours, Chris, had a contract with a board game company, which is a company that eventually became OpenOwl. At this time, they were called Oom Games. And he had a writing contract for a new game they were working on called Stars of Icarios. They're going to do a Kickstarter. And for listeners who don't know,

A Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform. And what you do is you put out this idea and say, I want to make this thing. And will you please donate money towards it? And at the end, you'll get a reward as a result. Usually what happens is you get the product itself. So there we're going to Kickstarter with this game called Stars of Icarus, which is this big, sprawling, epic space game where you're going through all these different adventures and you're flying your ship and you're fighting these other ships.

And a big component of that was the story that you play through, a bit like a choose your own adventure in a way. Chris had this contract with them to do the story, but he was far from his only kind of job. So he was overextended and he asked for some help. And I came in and my first kind of role was to like lay out exactly how the story is going to look and kind of take almost that project management type role towards that. Like, how are we going to structure this? What will the process be? And then...

After, I don't know, a week or two, I realized we don't actually have a writer on hand to do the work yet, to fill in those gaps of like that structure that I've created. I'm just going to start writing, you know, like I've always kind of fancied myself as a creative person, as a capable writer. It is now looking back like a job that is far more challenging than you sort of imagined it to be, I think. Just...

It's just, it's very hard to write a good story, to write a compelling piece. And like, I look back at the writing now and I kind of cringe a little bit, but at the time I just wanted to create, you know, I just wanted to put something together. And there were some really broad beats that I knew we wanted to hit as a group. So,

So I just started writing and started delivering it. And the designer, by the name of Brendan, didn't have a problem with this. I just kept going and got through the prologue, which was, I think, five or six scenarios. And around that time, we brought on another writer. And rather than kind of stepping away, I just worked with him and we...

we kind of pass our entries back and forth and edit each other and, and created our story that way. So yeah, it was something that I really did kind of literally fall into, but I also just sort of saw an opportunity. And so like, I'm just going to try this and see how it goes. And,

And thankfully, the response was positive enough. I got to keep doing it. And even now today, like in the job that I continue to do with Open LL Studios, I've spent all day today working, writing event cards. So I'm still doing creative writing in my current role.

Yeah, it's cool to look back on those previous things that you've written as almost like a feedback source of improvement of, okay, well, I can obviously do better from this copy or this thing that I wrote. Everybody liked it and it took off and it was fine, but...

uh, are you, you know, your own worst critic? Are you hard on yourself sometimes when you look back at those, those things that you wrote before and you're like, Oh my God, thank God though, that nobody else feels the same way. So how do you deal with the inner critic? Well, I think some other people do feel the same way based on the comments they get on, but that's, that's fair. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Um,

we just delivered the second edition of the game or we're calling it the 1.5 edition, but we, we, we went to the Kickstarter again, did the game again. And so I'm actually playing through it with my son right now. And at this point, the story has gone through probably three or four editing passes. And every time we edited it, we like trim it down and stuff and make it a little tighter, make it a little better. I think the first pass was,

that we handed in. The word count was higher than The Hunger Games, I think. Like it was a full-on novel that we handed in. And, you know, that first time when you're writing, you're like, I really need to like get a lot of that exposition in there. And, you know, you really want to describe everything so people really feel it. And through more and more passes, you really kind of, it's easier to understand how less is more, how to get to the point, how to convey multiple ideas in a shorter amount of time.

So I certainly do feel like I've improved as a writer as I've done that. But even now when I play with my son, I'll see stuff that I'm like, oh man, I would not phrase it that way now. Or like, why do we have this extra stuff in here? Or occasionally even I'll be like, I wish we kind of had to put a couple of things back in. But I think that how I am creatively, I'll never look at the work I've done without a critical eye. You know, like whether it's the design work or when I was working in the news station and we would do news stories, I'd be like, oh, I wish I had left that in for six more frames or you know what I mean? Like...

It's just constantly a process of self-assessment and trying to, and that's part of, for me anyways, how I get better. It's just that critical eye. Now that you're in this gig working at Open Owl Studios, this company, I checked out the website. It's focused on meaningful community-based board games. Now it's strictly board games, right? No, not very.

video games but these are board games that people can purchase is that right yeah our platform or sorry rather the platform we entirely use is kickstarter it is all board games to answer your first question uh but the owner uh lance preb does own other companies that are um app driven video games or like i think he's also involved in other video game studios as well so there is a sort of

tangential connection to these other studios. And so, you know, occasionally we'll talk about, like, could we turn one of our games into a video game or something like that? You know, the more that gaming evolves, these kind of cross streams a little bit too. So it's more and more common to see a board game that actually will have an app companion, for example. And if you're playing through, like, a story-driven experience, you might have the board out there and the dice and your character minis and stuff. But there might also be an app that's kind of, like, telling you what to do when you open a door, gives you a bit of story, that kind of a thing. So,

these things are getting more and more immersive. But for me, the reason why I'm passionate about the board game experience is the community building comes out of being physically present with each other and just being around a table, putting the devices away, you know, unless you're using an app to tell a story. But for the most part, putting devices away and just hanging out in person.

That's a big hook for me as far as like why I like doing the board game stuff. Yeah, bringing that social aspect back to humanity that seems to be dwindling quite a bit. So what does it feel like to be part of that creative team at Open Owl Studios where you get to tell stories and design these experiences and put them into a game that brings people together? How does that feel? I mean, it's a real privilege to get to do that. I am extremely grateful for the fact that

One of the advantages of technology is that our community is really close. There's an immediate connection between me and the community if I want it. And so, for example, we use Discord quite a lot. And we have our own channels for the different games that we have. And I'll often go into the Mythwind channel because that's the game I'm most involved with. And it's just a really nice kind of endorphin hit to kind of see people excited about the game, especially in the last month or so we've been delivering our latest game

our latest campaign. And so people are getting the game and they're sharing videos of unboxing it and, you know, showing pictures of what they're doing. And it's a very creative community. So they'll get ideas for things that they want to do to augment the game and go to their 3D printer and make new components and that kind of a thing. So all that stuff is just really nourishing and it's great. I mean, ironically, as...

I really like being in that physical space with people playing games. But what's happened during COVID is that a lot of us, well, we all work remote now. We actually don't have an office anymore. So there's a convenience to that. It allows us to have a team that is all over the world. It allows us to certainly contract out to people who are literally in other continents. But I do sometimes miss that.

thing. The thing that I enjoyed about the previous job was the people I was working with and building relationships. And it's just a different thing to be able to poke your head around the corner and just say, how's it going? You want to grab a coffee, that kind of a thing. Or did you watch, you know, Last of Us last night or whatever it is. And when you're in your remote, you kind of lose some of that connection, unfortunately. So I

Yeah, it's an incredible thing to be able to work in this medium and have a creative outlet like this that I got paid for. Yeah, but I do wish I was, you know, had the direct connection from time to time. So let's talk more about Mythwind. This is kind of your baby you did a lot of writing for. You've had a lot of input and creativity within it. What's this game, briefly, what's it really about? And what's the consensus that you're starting to see how players feel when they're playing the game?

Well, the intent of Mythwind is that it's a cooperative game that does not have a defined win condition. It's also a game that, even though it's very robust, is very quick to set up and very quick to put away. So these are kind of the pillars, I would say, when we're building the game. I am a co-designer in Mythwind, in addition to writing. And my most recent position is game line director. So basically everything to do with Mythwind. Well, we've kind of had a reshuffling, so I actually don't know what my job title is right now, but...

But Hithwood is definitely the thing that I work on the most. And that includes two more expansions that I'm working on for this summer. We're going to go to crowdfunding again and have some more characters we're going to release. And yeah, more story content and all the previous stuff will be available then as well. So yeah.

We really wanted to zone in on this idea that there weren't any cozy games in the book. I shouldn't say any, but it wasn't a very common experience in board games to have cozy games. We would look at like games, would have something like Stardew Valley, for example, or Harvest Moon or that kind of stuff. Games where you're more kind of focused on like interacting with other characters or building a garden up or, you know, they weren't like, it wasn't about slaying a monster or anything.

dominating an area or having, you know, the most points or whatever. And so we wanted to have something similar for the board game space. And I think that has been really successful for us because it has really, it has found a very kind of clear identity and it's,

And there aren't a lot of competitors in that corner. So yeah, I guess maybe I should talk about what the game is itself. Like literally what you're doing in the game is you're playing a character of some sort. And so if you buy just the core game, you have a ranger, a farmer, a merchant, and a crafter. And so basically each of these characters have their own kind of mechanics that they run. And then everybody has like

Throughout the day, there's new weather, and then everyone goes to town and does an action, and then you do a specific action for your character. You're kind of just doing that on repeat, essentially. And what happens over time is your town builds out, you get more buildings in there, there's an event storyline that happens throughout your play, and your character itself kind of gets better and better and better at what they do. So all of these things are just about improvement without anybody kind of playing against you, so to speak. So

But yeah, I think still a really unique experience. We have done it so that if you have, let's say you're playing as the farmer when you're done, you literally just put a lid on your tray and then put it in the box and you're done. That's all you have to do to put it away. And that allows you to save your progress. So when you want to play again, you pull that same tray out, pull the lid off and away you go. Oh, cool. Yeah, so that also is a very unique thing, just the ability to save in that way.

I still haven't seen any other game do it quite like that. So innovation is a big keyword for OpenL studios. And that's an aspect I think we really nailed with Mythwind. So yeah, I mean, it's, I think most of the times when people get into like board game design, for example, they're trying to crank out a bunch of designs, but I really just live in this space and think about how to iterate on it and how to, you know, what's next for it, that kind of a thing. And,

And that's a lot of what we're talking about right now. We're going to do a campaign in the summer, launch two new characters. And then really we need to figure out, well, what's next? Does this game still have life? Do people want more? Do we go down a different avenue with it? That's the discussion. So the future is ever-changing and ever-evolving. There might be changes, updates, and that's fine and easy that you can do that. So that's cool.

So many of our listeners are international professionals living and working in English-speaking countries, learners in new situations often afraid to try something new. What helped you to move forward when you didn't know what would happen next? I think desperation. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I, it is, I would use the word faith in almost a different kind of a way, just that, um, just have to believe something's out there. Right. And, and for me in, in this specific example, I was related by the fact that I just happened to know the right person, you know, you know, Chris is somebody who knows what my interests are and he knew where there was a need. And so he was able to connect us much like a lot of the other opportunities I've had over the years. It's often been, you know, the old saying is, it's not what you know, it's who you know. I mean, it's really kind of both, I would say like,

If it's who you know, and if they know what you know, then opportunity can meet preparation. So yeah, I mean, especially in Canada, it's kind of like your experience. Plus, if you've got a connection with somebody that knows somebody that knows somebody, or they just know somebody, it can make that connection happen a lot quicker. Yes, exactly. And

And, you know, I think that the more you are engaged with the things that you're interested in, those connections are going to happen a little more easily. Not even just hobbies necessarily, but if you are interested in, you know, for me it was like I went to a film and television training center and that ultimately turned into work at the local TV station just because

You know, I knew somebody who knew someone at the TV station and they knew that I had the right kind of experience. And, you know, so like if you're just kind of in the right circles, those connections happen organically. Cool. What lessons have board games specifically taught you about collaboration, communication and community that.

apply in your real life today, especially in a workplace environment or in like international setting? Well, it's interesting because like board games are models of, you know, quite often like real life scenarios. So for example, one of the most popular board games out there is a game called Pandemic. And it's been out for a while. Yeah, it predates COVID. But when

When COVID started, for whatever reason, we felt like playing that game. One of the guys we were playing with, we had like pretty small groups, of course, at the time. So one of the guys we were playing with is a pathologist at the hospital. He was really blown away at how effectively it modeled the outbreak of disease and the mobilization that has to happen in order to fight it. And the coordination between the different players at the table, you know, some people were paramedics, people were like

Working the dispatch center, I think. Like, you know, everyone had these sort of different jobs kind of a thing. So, you know, I do think about that often because, like, board games very much do require strategic thinking or tactical thinking. If you play cooperative games, they do require coordination. I think sometimes people will look at a game and...

and they'll call it like a flaw. But I sometimes wonder if that is like a social flaw or if it is a flaw of the game. So for example, in that cooperative kind of setting, something that happens is people will say like, well, I don't want to put that cooperative game because one person will quarterback the whole group. They'll kind of tell everybody what to do. And to me, that's not necessarily a problem with the game itself, but more so a problem with the group. Like the social dynamic that exists in that group is not such that anybody is willing to call out that quarterback. And just to say like, hey, let me,

learn on my own, you know, even if it's a mistake, even if it's not the most strategic way to go about it, I still want to kind of just see what happens, you know? So yeah, I mean, board games are just kind of playing at life. And so there are a lot of those good kind of lessons. I'm trying to think of like another good, good example, but you know, collaboratively, it's been really kind of fascinating in that again. So, so my main co-writer on stars of a curious is out of London, out of England. And so, um,

We really seamlessly kind of created this flow where, say, I would write like a chapter of this game that we're working on and then I hand it off to him. And then the next day I come in and he's already kind of done his work. And so there was this really kind of cool like back and forth handoff. And we'd occasionally like once or twice a week set up a meeting that was convenient for both of us. But for the most part, we had this rhythm where like I work, he works, I work, he works. And you could pass it back and forth really, really nice in that way. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question.

Yeah, for sure. That truly does answer it. And that's a good example of collaboration and how it can make things go in different directions, better directions for you in your career. Do you think your past career in project management and tech and the other things that you've done, even working together at Blockbuster Video, has things that you've done helped you become better at what you do now in storytelling and game development?

Well, in terms of like storytelling, when you were writing, you're putting everything you know into it. And it's not even necessarily...

conscious decision. So like all of my experience will go into writing like a dynamic where I'm writing a meeting in a boardroom, whatever, like every, every perspective I'm imagining is all really from my perspective. It's how I think a captain of a spaceship would speak. It's how I think, you know, it's not necessarily like that. I agree with all those perspectives. It's just my understanding of how those perspectives work. And so, you know, there were a lot of like interesting characters. We met a blockbuster, a lot of really unique people. And my, my,

My ability to understand where they're coming from feeds my writing now, you know what I mean? Like, so all of that stuff, everything ties into it. You know, game development to a degree as well. Like, I think what's interesting about game development is a lot of it is a, it's a real balancing act between creativity and also, you know, meeting deadlines. There's a very strong practical side to it.

And so my background as a project manager, for example, I think means I'm less resistant sometimes. Like there's the creative side of me that could just kind of keep on creating and creating and creating. In particular, you know, my history working in the television station, editing news stories. You know, there's this idea that an editor has never really done editing. Someone just pulls the tape from them eventually. And that's kind of how I also will like, I will continue to iterate writing. I will continue to iterate game design. But the project management brain in me will remember like, okay, I do need to hand this off.

And eventually, like when the game gets out there, kind of like we were saying earlier, I'll never be 100% happy with it because I will always feel there's kind of more room to keep on playing.

improving on it. But that's, it's actually better to put it out at a certain point, because then a lot of other people are engaging with it. And the feedback I get from that is way better than just kind of what's in my head. And I'm thinking about like, oh, we could have dotted this I and crossed this T over there. But the community is like, we need three more I's over here and two T's over there. And I'm like, oh, you know what, that's probably correct. And that's going to make the next product better than me just kind of sitting in my basement, thinking on it.

Great way to look at previous, what you might call flaws, or I hate using the M word, mistake, but it gives you that courage to keep, well, maybe we'll tweak it here or change this and do this better next time. So it's nothing to be ashamed of. If someone feels stuck, uninspired in their job, a

afraid to make mistakes. What's one small step that they can take today to start moving forward towards something that excites them even just a little bit? I would say just create a little bit of space for yourself. Like one of the hardest questions for me to answer is what do I want?

And that's harder and harder to answer when screens are always in front of my face. You know, I can always pull my phone out and that doesn't give me my brain the time to kind of think about that kind of a question. So creating space for myself is big. I think that's kind of the benefit of hobbies, too, is it helps you.

I think create mental space. So, you know, I do like to go golfing or play a board game or play soccer or whatever. And that really kind of cleans. It's like it's like a mental reset in a way. And then afterwards, as I'm driving home from soccer or golf or whatever, like that's kind of when I've cleared the floor to like,

really kind of process the things in my life. So yeah, that'd be the kind of the one thing I would suggest. And then I guess the second part of that is if you have a sense of what you want, like get out there and get involved in it in any kind of way that maybe doesn't seem really meaningful or seem big in the moment, but it is really just kind of about connecting with people who are in a similar headspace and a similar area of interest. And you never know what that'll turn into.

Amazing advice there. And it was a joy to see you again and to talk to you again. Where can people find out more about OpenOwl Studios and Mythwind and what you do? I probably should have gotten a little more prepared for this ahead of time. But OpenOwl Studios, they have their own website. That's the best way to check out our products. That's okay. I got the link. Yeah, perfect. Again, most of what we do is made available through Kickstarter.

So, for example, we have a game right now called Sprites and Sprouts that's going to be up until close to the end of the month, like May 28th, I want to say. And yeah, so I guess that probably the easiest way to keep up with us is going to Discord. That's where we're most active and just chatting with the community. And yeah.

That's the place. And of course, openowlstudios.com is the main website. Is that right? That's right. Thanks for joining me, Nathan. I'll be sure to leave those links in the show notes and take care. Have a great night. Thank you for having me.

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