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Oh my God.
Hey guys, surprise, it's Dua here. We're back for one more special episode of Dua Lipa at your service. This is an episode that I can't even believe we're doing. We're very, very excited about this. I'm currently in London. I'm on my sofa and I just got the five minute text from
from the man who's coming to join me to do an interview, who is none other than CEO of Apple, Tim Cook. This is surreal. I'm very excited. I'm a little bit nervous. I don't know what to expect, but I think it's going to be a really fun conversation. And I hope you guys enjoy this very special episode of Dua Lipa at your service with my very, very, very, very, very special guest, Tim Cook.
Tim? Yes. Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. Honestly, it's so amazing to have you here at home on my sofa. And I love it. It's beautiful. Thank you. I have to say, before this interview, I went on the internet to see what Apple is worth. And it's astonishing. It's the biggest company in the world with a valuation of around $3 trillion. And
It's an incredible figure just in itself. And I guess it's more than entire countries. To kind of put it into perspective, it's about the same as the GDP of the UK or France.
And I understand that you're only doing one interview while you're here in the UK. And I'm just so delighted to have you here. I'm so glad you would spend time with me. What? I'm serious. Of course. No, this is really exciting because I'm really looking forward to just digging into like
some of the issues that you're looking into now and in the future, and as well as like what you've learned about tech and life and leadership in your 25 years at Apple. Like it's, it's incredible. Should we just get started? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I'm raring to jump in. So it's not every day that I have like the CEO of the world's biggest company in my living room. So I should probably take a little bit of advantage of that and get some tips to help with my own work-life balance.
And I was wondering, like, what is the day-to-day running of a company like Apple? And take me a little bit through your day, like the day in the life of Tim Cook from the moment you wake up to the very end of the day. I get up really early. How early? I'm an early bird, like at four, four to five. Wow. And I spend my first hour doing email. Wow.
And I'm pretty religious about doing this. I read emails from a lot of customers and employees. And the customers are telling me things that they love about us or things that they want changed about us. Employees are giving me ideas. But it's a way to stay grounded.
in terms of what the community is feeling. And I love it. And then after, so you do emails and then you go into the office and it's just more kind of... Well, before I go into the office, I go work out. Okay. So emails, working out. Working out. I spend an hour in the gym and...
usually doing strength training. Okay. And I've got somebody to really push me to do things I don't want to do. And I do no work during that period of time at all. I never check my phone. Okay. I'm just totally focused on working out. And after doing that, after showering, et cetera, I go into the office and I start working with people I love.
And it's an incredible feeling to work with people that bring out the best in you. And that fundamentally, we all believe that one plus one equals three.
You know, that your idea plus my idea is better than the individual ideas of their own. I love that. And so things like that go on all day long. And I'll divide the day in terms of spending time with product teams or spending time with marketing teams or spending time with the executive team.
And we're either handling issues of the day or hopefully our balance is more on working on future stuff and thinking about what's next. I want to go back to the start a little bit because you grew up in a blue collar family. I did. In small town Alabama. And now you're heading the world's most valuable company. I mean, it's a pretty incredible journey that you've been on.
Can you tell me a little bit about your upbringing and how it set you up on this road? It was really a jagger journey. My childhood, I come from a very modest background. My mother worked in a pharmacy as a clerk and my father worked in a shipyard and very blue collar family, lots of love, little money.
was sort of the childhood. And they really taught me the value of hard work and instilled in me at an extremely young age that working could bring you great purpose and be a key part of your life. And I started actually with a paper route.
When I was 13, throwing, tossing papers, and I would get up in the middle of the night to throw everybody's papers so that they could, when they got up in the morning, they would have their newspaper. And I then took various jobs from there, whether it was flipping hamburgers at the local Tasty Freeze restaurant.
And doing anything I could to make some amount of money because I really wanted to go to college. And, you know, my father being in the shipbuilding business was subject to layoffs.
in that business. It was a very cyclical kind of business. And so we would go through tougher times during the layoff periods. And I always wanted something better for myself, more of a job that was regular and that you could depend on an income stream with. And so I wanted to go to college and better myself. And I wound up at Auburn.
which is a public university in Alabama. And I loved it. Yeah? I loved it. The uni experience was... The university experience was unbelievable. I went a little wild. Yeah? Of course. You have to. You have to in college. You can't not. You have to. And the world just opened for me. I was always curious about...
But you get even more curious in college because you can take so many different courses and challenge yourself in intellectual different ways. And it was wonderful. And then after that, I started my career first at IBM, then went to graduate school at Duke, and then eventually made my way to Apple. It's an incredible journey. It's
Hearing you speak, like I remember also when I was really young, I think I always wanted to have a job. It was again, like when I was 13, I was in school and I think my first job, I had gone to a pharmacy nearby and a woman was selling like
I guess it was like the Swedish equivalent to like Avon or something at the time. And I was like, let me take this catalog and like sell products to the girls at my school. So that was kind of like my first job. And then it progressed from there. But very early on, I had like a dream that I always wanted to do music and that I wanted to be on stage and I wanted to perform. And I think I was probably like 10 where I was like, I really want to do this, but I never really knew that it was even possible. What was your dream? Like was...
Being the head of Apple, like something that you would have ever envisioned doing. It's not something I envisioned for myself, to be totally honest with you. I was in high school. I wanted to be a musician. Mm hmm.
I learned how or kind of learned how to play the trombone. I was never any good. Really? But I wanted to be in a jazz band. And I was in a marching band for a while. And it kind of hit me that I was never going to be great at it.
that this was just not my calling. But I loved math and sciences, and so I decided to study engineering in college. And that's where I got my start was engineering, and I was first focused on robotics and in the manufacturing lines and learning how to manufacture products.
And this was really cool to me because I love creating things. That's so cool. It's so nice to just get to know you a bit more because I think it's fair to say that, you know, we know less about you than the more, let's say, extroverted leaders of other big tech companies. What kind of leader do you try to be?
Let's try to be a really good one. I try to be one that really deeply believes in collaboration because I do deeply believe that
that our ideas, bouncing ideas off of one another, that this creates a bigger idea than either one of us could generate on our own. And that when you can do this with larger groups of people, not totally large, but several people, that these ideas can be exponential in size and magnitude.
and that it's unbelievable what you can create with them, whether it's creating products or creating marketing or whatever you're working on together. I really deeply believe this. And so I try, my leadership style is to try to get everyone to work together in that kind of way. - Yeah, the art of collaboration, I think, is pretty special. Like when minds come together and create something really unique.
There's a mythology around your predecessor and the founder of Apple, Steve Jobs, as a great visionary leader. And I watched the film called Jobs like a few years ago now, and he is a fascinating subject. But at the same time, when you joined Apple in 1998, the company was almost bankrupt. That's right. And today, as I said earlier, it's worth it.
about $3 trillion and around like 90% of that came under your tenure. Do you ever think that you don't get enough credit? No, I don't look at it like that at all, to be honest. Steve was a original. I think only Steve could have created Apple.
And we owe him a debt of gratitude. And there's no doubt in my mind that if he were still alive today, the company would be doing outstanding and he would still be CEO.
And so I don't think of it as a credit deal. And plus, I get to work with people that I love and that are unbelievable at doing what they do. And so we share the credit from the company. I love that. I think you're an incredible leader. And I think in more ways than one, when you publicly came out in 2014, you were the only openly gay CEO in the Fortune 500.
And today, nearly 10 years later, that number has increased to four. So that's only four openly gay CEOs across 500 companies. First of all, what the hell? I feel like we've moved on further than this. Why do you think we're still not seeing equal representation at the top levels of business?
I think there's still a glass ceiling. And not in every company. We've killed the glass ceiling. We've shattered it in Apple.
people that came before me, I stood on their shoulders and we took it further and further. But I think in a large number of companies, there's still a glass ceiling. It's bizarre that it's like that. My own deep belief is that everybody should be treated with dignity and respect. And if you start from that angle, a lot of other problems kind of go away and never create themselves.
But I do think there's still a ceiling for not only LGBTQ, but for women.
for people of color, and we have more work to do. Society definitely has more work to do in many countries in the world. Yeah, I am quite interested in the racial diversity in business as well. Yes. I checked earlier, and it's also currently eight black CEOs in the Fortune 500, and I imagine that it must be quite important to you because you grew up during the civil rights era in the U.S.,
in the Deep South? Like, do you have any recollections from that time that continue to influence your approach to equality today? Oh, yes. I remember when Dr. King was assassinated. And this was an extremely sad time.
He was such a statue that you felt like he was taking the world in the direction it should go.
And it wasn't so clear who else would follow him. The same year that he was assassinated, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. And this was in 68. And I was eight years old at the time. And this was just the combination of these two assassinations were...
really weighed heavily on me as a very, very young person, knowing that these two were pushing the human race where it needed to go. And it was a very, very sad time. I guess we can't really talk about Apple without talking about the iPhone. And my first iPhone was...
I think it was like a hand-me-down from my dad. Oh, really? Yeah. And then I got my first one, like, on contract. I think it was like the iPhone 6 or something that I got. And I was so excited when I got it. And today it's like, it's an extension of my body. You know, I even have like the...
little dip in my finger from how much I use it. But I'm quite mindful, you know, when I use my phone, like I use my phone because I work on it all the time, but I try and be mindful and pick up a book rather than use my phone, especially like when I'm traveling or flying or whatever. But regardless of that, I'm on my phone a lot. I guess I just kind of want your honest take on like, do you think there's an excessive phone usage, especially in young people? And if so, like,
what can be done about it. - I think there is an excessive use of the smartphone and including the iPhone. And that's the reason we came out with Screen Time, honestly, was we wanted, we felt like one of the most important things we could do was surface the amount that you're spending. Sort of similar to what we do on the watch,
which promotes your ability to move more, burn more calories, stand more. But on the phone, we're looking at that from the opposite point of view and saying, do you really want to spend five hours a day on your phone or whatever the number might be? And also telling you what you're doing on it, where you're spending your time.
We also did things like surfacing how many notifications you get. Because sometimes it's not the amount of time, but it's the interruptions. Right. Is that what you mean like throughout the day? Throughout the day. That you keep kind of checking it. That's right. Yeah. And I noticed when I remember when I started using the tool before it was released, I
The aha moment for me was how many notifications I was getting in a day. I was embarrassed by the number I was getting in a day. And I quickly went and looked to see who's sending me all of these. And I started cutting out different notifications from different groups.
that I felt like, you know, at the end of the day, I could catch up on this at the end of the day. Exactly. I don't need to know at the moment when something is happening. Yeah. And so I think screen time is important. And of course, for kids, if you're a parent, then setting some parameters around where they're spending time, what apps they're using, all of this becomes really important. Yeah. And we make tools for all of these things. I think that's really important, for sure. Yeah.
This year, I feel like more than ever, we've, I don't know, every time we turn on the news, there's kind of another like climate disaster. And I think we're all collectively really worried about the climate crisis in our respective industries. And I think everyone's trying to figure out what the right thing to do is and how we can combat everything that's happening together.
And I was just wondering, like, what is Apple's climate strategy and what do you think are the hardest problems to solve? It's a great question. We started running the company on 100 percent renewable energy several years ago, but we realized this is not sufficient anymore.
that we had to go focus on our supply chain, which is largely outside of our company, and the energy that it takes to recharge our products at the customers' homes and offices. And so we set an objective to take all of that
the whole product cycle to carbon neutral by 2030, where all of our products are carbon neutral. This is 20 years before the Paris Accord.
Sorry, carbon neutral is kind of like offsetting, right? Well, carbon neutral is a combination of driving the carbon away totally and then whatever the residual amount is left to offset that by planting forest or grasslands that pulls carbon from the atmosphere. Okay.
So if you look at the Apple Watch, certain models of the Apple Watch that we just shipped a week ago, they're carbon neutral now.
And this happened seven years earlier than we had initially thought we could do it. And the way that we got there was it has a high degree of recycled material in it. And so we were in a position where we could stop pulling certain products from the earth, which creates carbon emissions. We have numerous solar farms and wind farms on the renewable side.
And then on the transportation, we shrunk our packaging significantly so that we could ship more products
and we took them out of the air and put them on the sea, which is a much lower carbon emission way of transport. This got us to reduce the carbon footprint by almost 80%, these combination of tasks. And then the last 20%, we offset with high quality offsets like planting forests and grasslands.
And, you know, sometimes all the terminology can be a little bit confusing for me to try and like understand. But, okay, so...
We have carbon neutral and net zero, and that's kind of like carbon neutral. That's right. But it includes also like greenhouse gases. Am I right in thinking that? Most people that say carbon neutral mean that the carbon has been driven to the lowest amount currently possible, and then the balance has been offset. Okay. Some people use it in a different terminology, but that's how we use it. Okay. And that's different to...
zero emissions entirely. Is zero emissions where we're trying to get to? I presume that's the...
the goal for the planet? Like, how do we do that? When I think of zero emissions, I think of no offsets. When I think of net zero, I think of offsets included. But is there a way to get to zero emissions? I think over the long arc of time, yes. I think we have to believe that that's possible. I think in the short term, you need some level of offsets to get to carbon neutral.
I also want to talk about, because you were just mentioning the recyclable product. That's right. As I was researching for this interview, I came across several, quite frankly, distressing articles about young kids in the Democratic Republic of Congo mining for cobalt. And cobalt is something which is used in batteries, that are used in phones, laptops, and electric cars. And I know that this is a complicated issue for the whole of the tech industry, but
Can you give me a 100% guarantee that the cobalt in my new iPhone 15 has not been mined using child labor in the DRC? Yes, we can, because we do two things. Well, first of all, I should back up and say our objective over time is to take nothing from the earth to make our products.
This is a big idea of not having to mine anything is to use all recycled material. And today we're using 100% recycled cobalt in the watch.
And 100% recycled gold, tin, tungsten, and other rare earth materials in the watch. So we're really proud of this. But for those products that we still do mine, for some of our other products, we have an intense level of tracing activity.
in our supply chain all the way back to the mine and the smelter to make sure that the labor used is not child labor. And I think we do a really good job of that. Okay, amazing. So this is good. This is like looking forward into the future with all the new products, which is great. And
While I was transferring my old phone into my new phone, it also said that there's a service for me to be able to recycle my old phone. That's right. Yeah, this is a great point to make because we know people want to upgrade and get new phones. And so if you have a phone that's working, we'll clean it up and resell that to someone else who wants to buy a used phone. If you have a phone that's not working, we will disassemble that product robotically
and recycle the materials, and it will become part of the recycled content of the new phone. - Okay. - And so there's a closed loop process
that we've worked on significantly to make sure that we're reusing all of the old phones. Okay. And this is like a service that I can go to the Apple store, let's say, send in my phone. And we'll give you money for it too. Okay. So I could get a discount on my next phone. You can get a discount on the new phone. That's right. It acts as a kind of subsidy. Great. Well, it helps. Like I think everybody wants to do that part in how we can make a difference. And I think...
having all these you know cables and old phones and whatever at home it's it's good to have the initiative for sure we'll be right back i'm morgan freeman and this is six degrees from jamie and spencer you know what's spent what i have pulled out some big names for our podcast recently what earth are you talking about jlo morgan freeman samuel jackson dare i say more they came on cause apparently rumor has it they love me you know that they're only talking to you to get to me
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm producer Phil. I'm the one that gets us the A-list guests around here. So join us for the podcast that's all about making new friends and have lots of fun on the way. And hopefully we stay friends too. Beautiful. Six Degrees from Jamie and Spencer. This is going to be amazing. Only on BBC Sounds.
World of Secrets is where untold stories are exposed. And in this new series, we investigate the dark side of the wellness industry, following the story of a woman who joined a yoga school only to uncover a world she never expected. I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this. Where the hope of spiritual breakthroughs leaves people vulnerable to exploitation. You just get sucked in spiritually.
so gradually and it's done so skillfully that you don't realise. Something that I've been quite
obsessed with, I guess, in the tech sphere is AI. And some days I feel like I've got a really good grasp on the potential of AI and other days I just haven't got a clue at all. I just feel like it's so complex. But I think most experts can agree that AI is something that's going to completely change our world. And it's kind of almost like the invention of the internet.
And I guess you would seem in a better position than most to speculate how that world is going to look like. And I was just wondering what your thoughts are on that. I think the first thing to know is that if you're an Apple customer today, AI is in all of the products that we produce.
If you're composing a message or an email on the phone, you'll see predictive typing tries to predict your next word so you can quickly choose the word. That's AI. And so AI is sort of everywhere today. What has gathered people's imagination, I think more recently, is generative AI and the use of large language models. And I think this is an area where
that is also can be life-changing. And it can be life-changing in a good way because it can do things like in the future, I don't mean necessarily today, it can help diagnose a problem that you're having from a health point of view. There's a limitless kind of a number of things that AI can do.
Unfortunately, it can also do not good things. Right. And I know that this is... Those are the things that I'm more worried about because it seems like there's so many great things AI can do, but then I think it also poses profound risks and a threat to humanity. And I'm like, tell me AI isn't going to destroy the world. Yeah. What is needed with AI, with this new form of AI, generative AI, is some rules of the road, some regulation around this that
And I think many governments around the world are now focused on this and focused on how to do it. And we're trying to help with that. And we're one of the first ones that say this is needed, that some regulation is needed. For us, we're very thoughtful and deliberate about how we approach these things. And so we think deeply about how people will use our products and
And if they can be used for nefarious reasons, we don't go down those paths. Are governments actually able to regulate AI or have we kind of gone past that point? It's a really good question. I think most governments are a little behind the curve today. I think that's a sort of a fair assessment to make.
But I think they're quickly catching up. I think the US, the UK, the EU,
And several countries in Asia are quickly coming up to speed. And I do think there will be some AI regulation in the next 12 to 18 months. Okay. And so I'm pretty confident that will happen. Yeah, because I think it could be a bit catastrophic if it goes rogue and there's no... Yeah, we need it. Controlling, yeah. We absolutely need it. Yeah, it's a real like,
sign of the times I guess the way that things are just completely rapidly changing and with all the new products as well I mean when you think about it like the smartphone has entirely changed the world and I guess obviously the internet and now AI is going to completely change the world like what product or like technology do you think is going to have a similar transformative impact like on in the future and do you think it's going to be an Apple invention?
We just launched in June the Vision Pro. You can be sitting here in your living room and you can have your virtual world overlaying your physical world. And all of a sudden, you and I might be having this conversation and we may want to reference something. You could kind of pull it up in space and
And we could chat about it. That's fascinating. But you use your hands. It's not like... You use your hands in your eyes. Oh, you use your eyes as well. In your eyes. Okay. And so if you just look at something on Vision Pro, you can select it with your eyes.
That's fascinating. It's so wild because people pick it up like this. They can't believe how easy to use it is. But we spent years in researching and developing this product to make it so simple to use that it works like your mind works.
If you look at something, you kind of expect it to do something. And it does. Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, how far do you think we are from like tech actually becoming part of our bodies? Like, do you think we're... Well, in some ways, we're there because the watch becomes a part of your body in a way. Right. And it's measuring all of these things that you're doing, your movement, your stand, your exercise, your heart.
It's looking for things like diseases and so forth, like AFib that you may have in alerting you before the symptoms would ever alert you. And so I think wearable tech has become an extension of your body now. And as you mentioned earlier, iPhone in a lot of ways has become an extension of you. It's a complete extension of my body. So that's why I'm like, I guess we're probably not so far away of...
Just it being a part of us. But I always wonder, do you think this is going to improve the human condition? I think it must. Technology doesn't want to be good or bad. It's in the hands of the creator of whether it is.
And you can bet that we're being very thoughtful and very deliberate on things that we develop. So our technology is for good and that it's really enriching people's lives, not distracting. Yeah. Amazing. Really, really cool. I mean, I imagine there's so many people who are listening to this interview who would love to work in the tech industry. And I was wondering, like, what tips have you got and
Do you have to be able to code? Or if I had an English degree, like would I be able to work at Apple? Like what are some tips? We hire people from all walks of life. People that have college degrees, people that don't. People that code, people that don't. I do recommend coding for everyone to learn because I think it's a form of expressing yourself.
And it's a global language, and it's the only global language that we all share is coding. And so I recommend it.
but we hire people that don't know how to code. And we hire a lot of people that don't code on a daily basis, that do other things. I think one of the characteristics that I look for in people is collaboration that we talked about earlier. Can they really collaborate? Do they deeply believe that one plus one equals three? I think curiosity is a trait that I love about people, about people that ask questions.
that are so curious about how things work, how people think, all of the whys and hows questions. I love people that are creative because we're looking for people that can see around the corner. Ultimately, we want to create products that people can't live without, but they didn't know they needed. Right. And... You kind of want to get ahead of the curve and kind of... That's right. Right.
That's right. So all of these traits go into, I think, making a great team player. I can only imagine that you've done like pretty well financially at Apple. Yes. And that you've said that you intend to give away like a majority of your wealth. That's right. I guess Bill Gates has made a similar pledge and his big vision was like to end poverty and disease and
What's the big global challenge that you feel like you want to solve and how do you plan to do it?
You know, because of my background and equality is a big one. And I do deeply believe that everyone should be treated with dignity and respect around the world. And so I'll steer a lot of my resources accordingly. I also want to make sure that people understand
that are in a similar position to where I was, where you're from a family without significant means that you can go to school. And because I believe that education is the great equalizer of people. And so I'll steer some of my money to scholarship programs.
funds as well to make sure that kids in those areas can do well and haven't had the opportunity that I had, frankly. That's really cool. I mean, there's a lot of ambitious kids that grow up wanting to
Wanting to change the world and the iPhone and Apple's inventions have really changed lives like across the globe. We still have more to do. Yeah. But like I'm imagining like a young Tim Cook growing up in Robertsdale, Alabama. Like, are you satisfied with where you are right now? I'm incredibly humbled for where I am. I feel privileged. Yeah.
and I want to give back. I want to help other people achieve the same dream that I've achieved.
I didn't have a dream to be CEO of Apple. It was beyond what I would have ever dreamed for myself. But it happened and I want to make sure it can happen for other people as well. I love that. I mean, you've been at Apple for 25 years now. 25 years, yes. Are you planning to be there for the next...
I don't know, three, four, five years? Are you planning on staying until 2050 and seeing the environmental... 2050 might be a stretch. You know? I don't know how long I'll be there. I love it there. And I can't envision my life without being there. Yeah.
And so I'll be there for a while. Okay. Okay, cool. So there's no like succession plan that you've got? Well, we now we're a company that believes in working on succession plans. And so we have very detailed succession plans. Okay. And because something that's unpredictable can always happen, I can step off the wrong curb tomorrow.
And hopefully that doesn't happen. I pray that it doesn't. Are you able to say who's in line for succession? Oh, I can't say that. But I would say my job is to prepare several people for the ability to succeed and
And I really want the person to come from within Apple, the next CEO. And so that's my role is to make sure that there are several for the board to pick from. Interesting. We'll have a look as well and see what we can spot. That's cool. Thank you. Well, that was great. I loved talking to you about just all things life, leadership, tech.
And I actually, I love to end my conversations with a list. Okay. And I read about your love of national parks and I understand that you're a very keen hiker. Yes, I love to hike. So I was wondering what are five national parks to visit in the U.S.?
Oh, it's a tough list because there's so many great ones. But I would say Yosemite, which is sort of my local national park in a way. It's so beautiful. The Grand Canyon. Beautiful. The Grand Teton. Glacier.
And Zion. Okay, so there's a few I haven't been to. And they're all so special. And when you're out in them, it reminds you of how small all of us are relative to the grandeur of nature. And it's sort of a palate cleanser for the mind being out there
and hiking and sweating and for me it's just, it's incredibly meditative and I love it. Yeah, that sounds, it sounds special. I got to do more hiking and exploring and being a bit more outdoorsy, I think. Oh, I would highly recommend it. And in Europe this summer I went to the Dolomites. Oh yeah? And the Dolomites were, it was just jaw-dropping.
I just, I was so excited about being there. And the hiking and the via ferratas are incredible to do. I would highly recommend it. I'm going to go back. So cool. Yeah. And then my next and last list is we recently started a Service 95 book club. Right. And it's
I love to ask my guests about their reading pile. Can you share five books that have shaped you? Yes. As a young student to Kill a Mockingbird, and I think it's not just for young students, but for all of us still.
Shoe Dog, which was Phil Knight's book. And it's kind of meant to be a business book, but it's a book on life. I really like that book. It's really great. When Breath Becomes Air was phenomenal. Malala's book, I Am Malala. I love Malala's story and her passion around young girls' education in education.
We work with her and the work that she does is incredible. And then I love reading biographies of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy and some of the great people that were pushing forward on civil rights. Tim, thank you so much for your time and your generosity. This has just been such a fascinating and illuminating conversation and
I think it's going to be amazing for all the listeners. I think they're going to have a lot to take away from this. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming and being here in London and spending some time with me today. Thank you for having me. It means the world to me. And thanks for having me in your beautiful home. Oh, anytime. Maybe we can do this again sometime. Absolutely. I'll look forward to it. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
It's 2003 in Birmingham. Doors have been slammed in your face, you're not welcome here. They were capable of murder and had murder. Drive-by killings, gang wars, a vigilante group that fought against Jamaica's notorious yardies. The homeboys thought, we're not going to take this anymore, we're going to be even more violent than you. Before turning on each other.
I'm Livvy Haydock and this is Gangster, the story of the Burger Bar Boys. Listen on BBC Sounds. Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by.
And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation. It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After the yoga classes, I felt amazing. But soon, that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker, a journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders. ♪
I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards, I have nothing. The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.
You just get sucked in so gradually.
And it's done so skillfully that you don't realize. And it's like this, the secret that's there. I wanted to believe that, you know, that...
Whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me, was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't yet understand. Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network. I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice.
And for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future. To bring it into the light and almost alchemise some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power. World of Secrets, Season 6, The Bad Guru. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.