Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Today, my guest is actually my language practicing partner. We've been practicing, for me, I'm practicing French and for him to practice English. We've been doing that for a little while now. And we decided to record a podcast episode about how we feel about using different languages in our lives as someone who speaks two languages fluently.
How do we feel about using different languages in different contexts and our language learning experiences? And we actually messed up the recording earlier, so we're starting again and we're going to try to skip to the most interesting parts of our stories. It was a long warm-up. Could you please introduce yourself? Yes, sure. Hello everyone. I am Fei.
I've been learning French for quite a while. So here I'm in France for like five years.
And my major in China was French. So I've started learning French for like four years in China. And here I have five years experience of the French language in France. So I'll just quickly introduce my own French. I mean, my English. Yeah. So I started studying abroad in secondary school and I started learning English back in grade three in China. Okay.
but only really started to learn English more aggressively back in middle school. And my school put more of a focus on English education. So for me, when I first came here to
to have a English curriculum, the transition was not that difficult. Earlier, we talked about a lot of our experiences just started to study abroad. But maybe you can skip that and just talk about... So right now, I feel comfortable using English day to day, even though I'm aware
that I speak with an accent. And I feel like it's like playing badminton. It's like when I speak with someone, some people, I feel like... I don't know if it's progress, but I feel like I speak better. Okay. Especially when I'm talking with customer service on the phone. I feel like I speak more clearly. Okay. But with some, I just feel like my accent is coming out more obvious. But
Anyways, I'm going to reiterate a topic, which is when do I feel I'm most challenged by my English proficiency? I think it's when I listen to the Joe Rogan podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, the biggest podcast in English speaking world. I try to listen to it, but I just find it hard to follow.
I think it's a cultural aspect, the way they speak. I have to pay attention to follow. It's not a natural thing. Or maybe it's the topics as well.
Because I listen to other podcasts like Call Her Daddy, and then I find that really easy to follow, even though there's words and expressions I'm not used to hearing, but maybe because of the topic. Absolutely. Yeah. Even for me. Yeah, because I recommend it to you, and you love it. Totally fall in love. I'm glad. And other times when I'm speaking English, I feel like I'm just in the bubble or comfortable comfort zone. Yeah.
I don't feel challenged. I feel like I can use it as much as it's needed. But I also don't have experience of needing to go on the stage and give a speech. Those times I would feel self-conscious that my vocabulary is not so extensive and
Sure.
So that's the challenge I face. I think it's more of a cultural aspect than a language aspect. So one small question for you. I'm always curious about how come you will feel comfortable speaking English because... When I just came here, right? Yeah, you totally understand me. You're just trying to cue back to the question that we were answering, right? I was curious because...
I'm not sure if when you come to an English-speaking country, learning English will become natural or actually you need to put some effort to make some progress. You know what I mean?
Yeah, so yeah, I think I know what you mean. I think you're just helping me to like bring out the story, right? Sure. Do you want to talk about your challenges or should I go first with my story? You can go first. Okay, so I think a big thing that I did right is that when I first came here, I luckily I happen to know a friend who
who shared the same guardian with me because our guardians worked as like a studying abroad agent for a lot of their family friends. And so she actually came earlier than me, maybe a year or half a year. And our English language level is about the same. And so we naturally stick together. There weren't that many Chinese students who just came abroad in my grade at my school back then. So we stuck together and we
had lunch together and we talked together in English. And that was weird to, according to some of my Chinese schoolmates, because I feel like if you're more comfortable speaking Chinese, why would you speak English with each other? But we did that because, and she also felt comfortable doing that. I think we both enjoyed that part. So we learn from each other. And we also, by sticking to English in at school, we,
I feel like we are presenting ourselves as not cutting out anyone who doesn't understand Chinese because I feel that in school, in secondary school, especially in class, if you have a small group of Chinese students speaking Chinese with each other, you really create this vibe that you're not willing to talk with anyone who doesn't understand your language. And I think that's annoying to both students and teachers in your classes.
So I think that's one thing I did right, is that I didn't find it awkward to speak English with my Chinese friends, even though my English was very limited. I just felt like it's something I should do, studying abroad, because otherwise, why would I come all the way and keep speaking Chinese if I want to really learn the language? And also, I would feel too self-conscious to really speak with native students,
But with her, because we have similar language levels, we felt a lot more comfortable speaking English with each other. And that confidence can also help me speak with more people, more native students. Exactly. That's what I was trying to say, because I have this kind of similar experiences because
Each time when I practice French with my Chinese schoolmates at class for a presentation, for a conversation, for a discussion, for a debate, I feel confident. I have no problem. Squish a perfect phrase. But once I need to speak to a native French person, suddenly I stopped.
I cannot make a complete phrase. I make a lot of mistakes when I speak. So probably it's all mental. It's not because I'm that weak in French. It's just because that I'm not confident in speaking French. Yeah. That's why I...
I want to bring up my little learning tips. Your tip is very specific. Disclaimer, this tip is only viable for legal age people who have a tolerance for alcohol. I'm so sorry. It's too much information. Well, my confidence...
comes from a drinking experience. So there was one day, my first day at school in Southern France. So I met a bunch of foreign girls and then I realized that they were my classmates. So there was a girl who came to me
and asked me first sentence, do you drink? I said, yeah, but actually I don't drink. So then she said, then you should totally come to our party. And then I came to their party and the party turns out to be a drinking party. So then she asked me why Chinese people drink.
or, well, Asian people are so shy, so they don't feel comfortable to talk to a foreigner, to engage in conversation, to make a presentation or do whatever social. And then I, because I am that kind of person, I'm shy, I cannot, I'm not comfortable making friends, especially for the first time.
So I just said because personally, I'm shy, but I'm not sure about others. I'm shy. So each time when I speak French, I'm always nervous because I don't know if my sentence is correct. If you can get what I mean. So.
that's probably my problem. I feel nervous when I speak foreign language, especially to a foreigner, not a Chinese speaker. So then she made me a typical drink, a gin tonic, and said, after this drink, you'll feel confident. And guess what? I did. So after that, after drinking gin,
I become a talker in foreign language. So the more you drink, the more you talk, the more you make progress. So that's my special tips for learning. Very special tip. Yeah, very special tip. When I speak to a Chinese person and we were speaking French, there is no problem for me. I feel comfortable. That's why I realized that my problem is not that I'm that weak physically.
French is only mental. So the only way to improve my French is to, well, feel comfortable when you speak. Drink. Drink is just one way. So if I can find a way to feel comfortable when I speak French, it's a perfect way. So drink may be one of them. Yeah. So I feel like there's a connection. So I was saying that I feel comfortable
Yeah. Yeah.
I guess maybe as an extension, I think it maybe followed naturally from... I didn't want to talk in Chinese in class because I felt like it's excluding conversations with everyone else. As a natural follow-up on that, I've also just became more comfortable making friends in English. But all my friends are pretty Asian and we speak English together even though we are all pretty Asian, we look pretty Asian.
So I talk about dating a lot in my other episodes and I talk about dating apps and my experiences. But I only started using dating apps last year and I find that I don't really feel comfortable dating in Chinese. I think it might be because it's... Is that because you didn't have that Chinese dating experience before? Yeah, I never had any dating experience before, but...
I don't know. I've only gone on one date where we spoke Chinese and that was set up by our parents. Ah, okay. Yeah. Like a marital one? Not that serious, but... Okay. But kind of serious still. I don't know if it's because we were speaking Chinese or because it's set up by parents. But I just felt like I don't know how to approach. I feel like...
I could be more flirty in English or be more spontaneous. Yeah. I don't really know how to do that in Chinese. Yeah. So now dating apps, if the guy just starts speaking Chinese with me, it's really off-putting. Oh, really? And I would say I prefer English. Yeah. I would say I prefer if we use English because I feel more comfortable. I didn't realize that dating in Chinese was a real problem for you. Yeah. I didn't realize that. Maybe.
because I listened to all the dating podcasts in English. Yeah, because I have similar experiences, but that was not dating experience, but more like a hookup once. Oh, okay. So more, I realized that I don't feel comfortable
Being naughty in Chinese because I'm too ashamed. Too ashamed. Each time when I make some dirty jokes or some flirty words, I'm more comfortable in French because I don't feel ashamed. So that's why I'm more natural. Yeah, because I think in Chinese culture, those topics are, at least the way we are brought up, they're a lot more private topics that you wouldn't, we don't discuss it.
So there's less of a stigma in English or French where you can talk about these things. Yeah. So that's why my podcast episode where we talk about dating and first sex, I felt comfortable talking about them in English than Chinese. Yeah.
Yeah, and then my episodes in Chinese, we sometimes talk about really abstract or more serious topics. Okay. Yeah, I think you brought up a good point. So do you only start looking for hookups in French then? I don't only look for hookups in French.
But it ends up always like that. So I don't have any serious experiences. But did you have a hookup experience in Chinese where you find really awkward? I don't even have a hookup experience in Chinese. Yeah, same. I imagine it would be awkward. Yeah.
I'm not sure because I assume we didn't have experiences in China and we started exploring here in a different country. So it's quite normal that when you start, you start with a different language. So it's... Yeah, I only started watching porn in English. Oh, really? Yeah. Sometimes I do in English and sometimes I do in French. I started watching porn in English, but...
I do still... I do still enjoy some points in Chinese, but...
But it's hard to transfer that to my experience. Okay. Can we put that to your podcast? It's not PG. Yeah, of course. I don't mind. No, no problem. I think that's the kind of content people want. Sure. So I was going to say that I have a friend. We are both Chinese and we are both in France. And we are so different that...
She's so intelligent, she's so smart, but sometimes I make fun of her because she always knows some fancy words, literature, something like that. Sophisticated. Yeah, exactly. And I am, well, I'm kind of known for knowing the nasty words in French. For my friends, I'm kind of like a dirty words dictionary. Yeah.
So all the dirty words, all the nasty words, insults. Well, I know everything about that. Swearing, cursing words. Yeah, cursing words. I think it's a fun part. For me, it's interesting to learn a language through the curse words. I'm always wondering when I can actually use them in my whole life. I'm waiting for that.
But I also feel like the same thing with dating, like swearing in a second language is much more comfortable, I think. And swearing in your mother tongue, that sounds more serious. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I feel like there's just a more comfortable distance for me. When I use English, it's just a comfortable distance because when I use Chinese, it could feel too personal too soon.
Or it could just remain very distant. Because I feel like with most of my social connections, English is just perfect to go by. But with my really good friends, sometimes we need to throw in Chinese words or expressions or even talk in Chinese.
But that's a very different moment than day-to-day conversations. But also, if I'm obliged to speak Chinese with elderly, with my... Your family. Yeah, family and also just acquaintances who are older than me and who speak only Chinese. Yeah. So then I use Chinese to remain a very respectful distance. I don't need to go too personal, like not...
Not casual, but just being respectful. Okay, but this is the exception. So it's like, it covers the two extremes. But with most people I meet day to day, English just covers the bulk of my conversations. So you feel more comfortable speaking English with some acquaintances. Most people. Yeah, most people.
Like with my peers, with people of my age, it's just more comfortable. Okay. For me, I'm more traditional that if the person I'm speaking to is Chinese, I'm definitely speaking Chinese to him or to her. But I don't feel the same thing as you. It's with the person. Yeah, it's with the person. If I'm comfortable with this person, I can speak in Chinese or English or French. But wait...
with some hookup experience, I recommend foreign language. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's something that you just need to be compatible. Yeah. The other person must be on board with that. Yeah, that's one thing.
If you're speaking English to someone or speaking French to someone, firstly, they need to understand that language. And secondly, they need to get your cultural context because there are something that people from another country may not know. People just said that the students abroad tend to speak Chinese with some English accent.
Or other languages. Yeah, words. Do you feel awkward? Yeah, they feel like it's pretentious and stuff. Yeah, do you feel that it's pretentious? So when I do podcasts, often my guests...
have a similar background to me or they also speak English and it's natural I think for them to feel like it's more comfortable if they use a mixture of English and Chinese when we're talking but as a podcast host I try to avoid that because I've gotten
I've gotten comments, not so much, but I'm aware of it. Even before I got those comments saying, oh, you're mixing English and Chinese. And if I don't understand some words, it's annoying. And I understand that. And so out of consideration for those audience, I try to avoid it.
Because I can understand it's annoying that you're just enjoying a show in Chinese and then suddenly they throw in English words without explaining and you just feel lost all of a sudden. So I treat it as a training for myself to try to keep to only a single language as much as possible. But with my friends, if I know that person is comfortable...
then I would feel comfortable saying whatever, just maybe a picture, but only with close friends. But with your friends in daily life, when you speak Chinese to each other, are you tend to mix up? I'm comfortable with both. It doesn't really happen with my friends, but I feel like I like it more if it's based on the need. Like if you just on top of your head,
It's most conveniently expressed in one language versus the other because you need to express it that way. But sometimes I can agree with that when I hear some people say using a mixture. And I feel like the mixing is so unnecessary. Like you can find an equivalent word in, say, in Chinese and Chinese.
Okay. Yeah. I can get annoyed sometimes too. But I think this mixing is very inelegant, I guess you can say. Like very unnecessary. I can... Yeah. Speaking of when I see some posts on social media, most often posts that include an opinion on things, trying to convey an idea. And I see like they're mostly using Chinese but throwing in some English words.
That just feels out of place. But then I know this judgment of mine only comes from all of my experiences and someone else might judge it completely differently. But I do get a little bit thrown off when I see the words used in unnecessary places. Like, I would feel...
You know how to say it in Chinese, why are you just adding English words to make it look fancy? That's what I can feel. So that's what I try to avoid too. Okay, okay. Because I may have this kind of experience as well in France. Because there are so many words I say every day, every time. And some words just, there is no meaning. For example, I'll give you an example. The French word, the expression, means still. Mm-hmm.
in English. So I use that every day, every time. And I barely realize that I'm speaking, well, French. So sometimes when I speak to a non-speaking friend, non-French speaking, non-French speaking friend in China, when I came to the, I suddenly realized that it's not appropriate. So I try to find a,
a word to replace that. And then I realized that it's... Excellent words. And then I realized that I become the person that people hate. I mix up the words. Yeah. It's not necessary, but I think...
When you speak to, well, even a Chinese friend, when you use a word, when you use a specific expression, they will immediately get how you feel. Sometimes the word, there is no meaning, but there is a lot of emotional things. Yeah, emotional things to, well, some emphasizes on emotions and emphasize on, well, emotions.
your anger, your happiness, something like that, people can suddenly get it. And I think it might be good, but still need to pay attention to other people, only to close people. Yeah, as you were telling the story, I think I came up with an idea. I think there's two kinds of
communication, especially online. I feel like there's a kind that is communicated for yourself. You're just trying to get it out of your system. You don't care as much how other people feel, but there's the other kind of discourse where you are trying to make a point. You're trying to make a stance and then you're trying to make that known to the public, to the internet. Then I feel like the more private kind of communication, you can use whatever you feel comfortable and
Even though you are putting it out there, you still obviously care what other people think. But if you do have maybe like at least half of the intention is for yourself to express yourself, then...
Yeah.
then I think you doing that is you're kind of putting yourself above other people's thinking like, oh, if you don't understand this, then you're not my desired audience. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, sure. I get it. So that's why I said is owning two close friends because we're so used to this kind of conversation every day.
There is no problem. As long as you know they are comfortable with it. Yeah, but to a stranger, even in Chinese, I'll never do it. Just to be considerate to your audience. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think something I noticed about myself that's kind of paradoxical that I tend to socialize in real life in English more comfortably. But online, I do.
emerge myself in the Chinese speaking social media circle. Yeah, it's more like a cultural thing. Yeah. I mean, I spend a lot of time on Chinese social media app, which I don't think is healthy because of all the all the censorship. Yeah. But I still spend a lot of time there. And yeah, so I guess that's kind of paradoxical for me because, for example, I've never met anyone. So far, I haven't met anyone, any of my Internet friends.
But I just imagine, like, if I meet them in person, we talk in Chinese all the time online, but...
Would it be a little bit weird for me now that I have to socialize in Chinese? I think it goes back to the distance I was talking about. I feel like online, I tend to be more personal. I talk about really personal thoughts and stuff, which I wouldn't talk just with anyone I meet in real life. So then that's why I'm using Chinese because there's more depth to it, I think.
Okay. I kind of think that I have different personalities in English or in French or in Chinese. I've only heard you speak in English and French, and I can see that a little bit. I feel like in French, maybe because I just have a filtered lens, colored glasses for people who speak French, but you just sound more chill, like more calm. But in English...
A little bit nervous. You sound more energetic. No, you sound more energetic, I think. I feel like when I speak English, it's kind of dramatic. That's probably because I watch so many American series.
Yeah, but I haven't used English in my daily life. So all my English is from the TV shows. So I don't really have this real life conversation or experiences using this language. This is probably the reason I am so energetic or kind of pretentious in English.
But in French, I'm so used to speak French every day. I mean, I need to speak French every day. So I don't feel nervous when I speak French. That's probably why I'm more natural in French than in English. I only speak English with you.
Thanks to you. I don't feel like you sound... I've said it multiple times, but I don't feel like you sound pretentious at all. I think you sound energetic, which is a good thing. Thank you. You're the only one who said that. Because one thing that I mentioned earlier is probably because...
that all my Chinese friends are still used to my Chinese or my French. That's why each time when I try to speak English to them, they cannot stand it. They were like, "Why are you acting like you're a drama queen?" So what's your personality like? My personality in Chinese, I'm less energetic.
I feel less sophisticated as well. Because in French, I tend to be a little bit aggressive.
Because the people I speak to, they are French people. So I tend to have some problems every day. You're more tough. It's more tough. So I need to speak to the customer service. I need to fight with my neighbors. You sound more assertive. Yeah, that's why I'm not obliged to do that.
That's why I have aggressive French. And for Chinese, I'm more friendly. Absolutely. I just opened one bottle of wine.
How much are you going to drink? Probably one glass during our talk to feel more comfortable. Sounds a little late, right? We've already done more than half of it. So we were talking about the different personalities using different languages. So do you think that you have different personalities using French, English or Chinese?
I feel like it changes throughout time depending on what I do with each language. I feel like before I started doing podcasts and also before I started spending time on the Chinese internet, I thought I wouldn't be able to have those casual conversations with people.
anyone in Chinese anymore unless I feel comfortable with that person. But then I think after I started building a presence on Chinese social media and after I started to talk with total strangers, not total strangers, but
But people I follow on the internet, but never met in person. I started to talk with them for the first time. And I feel like I am starting to get back that. Just being able to socialize in Chinese aspect more from doing podcasts. In English, I think I'm more friendly overall.
But in Chinese, I could sound really cold to some people if I don't know. Yeah, I think I could sound more like very distant. But if I make an effort, I could also sound more friendly. Yeah, very friendly.
So it's basically the opposite for me. I can be more friendly in Chinese than in French. Maybe because that's what French culture got you into. Yeah, they got me. So I become aggressive. I can be sassy when I speak French. I've been thinking when I look for someone in a serious relationship or to have any kind of connection, whether it be a casual relationship or a serious relationship,
I do have expectations in terms of language. I think if it's a Chinese guy born here, I mean, if they don't speak Chinese, I think it's not as much of a deal breaker as if they just came here and they don't speak good English. You prefer that the guy you're dating with speaking English with you because you're more comfortable with him.
I think considering a long-term serious relationship, if they could speak Chinese, it would also be good because the depth of our conversation or the breadth could be greater. Okay. But I also often think that if my future partner doesn't speak my first language, it might also be a good relationship because there are some parts you keep to yourself. I don't think you need to share everything.
For example, before I sometimes see these couples who have their mostly Chinese girls who date another race with a guy that don't speak Chinese. I used to think then like how can they really have a deep connection if he doesn't understand parts of her language.
But now I'm more leaning toward thinking it might be a good thing. You don't need to share everything. Yeah, you don't need to share everything. And also, for example, one typical family issue is the mother-in-laws with the daughter or with the son. Actually, I forgot to mention, but the two homestays I've had since studying abroad, both families, the husband don't speak the wife's first language.
So the first family, the wife is a Ukrainian. She only started to learn English after they met each other.
And then they fell in love and then she started learning. They were communicating in Latin at the very start because she's a doctor. So she knows some Latin words and he also knows some Latin words. Anyways, the second homestay family, the husband doesn't speak Tantala, the Filipino language. But anyways, sometimes when I hear the wife goes on the phone with her family and the husband just doesn't understand a thing they're saying. But I feel like that's also okay and fine.
And I feel like your relationship should be between the two of you. So as long as you don't find it, as long as you're okay with speaking whatever language you're comfortable with. And if the family part is just restricted to one party because the other doesn't speak the language, I think it also is a healthy relationship. Yeah. It's more of two independent people without bringing in all the family drama. Yeah.
Makes sense. Makes sense because I have never thought about that. I thought that it would be great, it would be convenient to stick to Chinese because we can perfectly understand each other, including the cultural things.
But yeah, you made the point because we actually don't need to share all the problems or the dramas. If I remember correctly, you prefer dating Asian guys, am I right? Yeah, yeah. So if you date with a Chinese guy and you stick to English, it will be so weird for the other. Yeah, if it's weird for them, then that means we're not a match, right? Yeah.
I think the ideal situation is like how I talk with my friend. Like we speak in English, but occasionally in Chinese. But a boyfriend or a close friend is another thing, right? Yeah, I think with boyfriend, I can't imagine what having sex in Chinese would be like for me.
I think that's the most important thing. Okay, okay, okay. That's why we are so in common. We don't have that kind of experience in Chinese. Okay, sure, sure. So have you tried, speaking to the dating experience, have you tried dirty talk in English? No, in English, yeah. No? I mean, I've never done it in Chinese before.
Yeah, sure, sure. But I meant in English. Have you tried? You mean have I dirty talked in English? Yeah. I mean, you're supposed to say things during sex, right? You can just not say anything. So I suppose. Okay. So you're not comfortable. You're...
I don't know if I would be comfortable doing that in Chinese. It just feels too awkward. It's too shameful. It's too intertwined with my culture. But I think it's us avoiding something, you know? I think ideally you should feel so comfortable with each other that it shouldn't be a problem. I think we're just avoiding that because of the stigma around sex that we are brought up with. Yeah, perhaps. Especially when you hook up with a stranger, right?
You're not familiar with each other so that's probably you feel awkward with in your own language because you feel ashamed. It feels like you're exposing too much of yourself. Exactly. So that's why I think a foreign language is kind of a protection. Like a shield. Yeah, it's a shield. It's a protection to protect your real personality or your own self.
So it's a face mask. Yes, yes, it's a mask. Yeah. But it's a tool that you can put on the mask whenever you feel like it. Yeah, exactly. And I think so too. I think ideally you should be so comfortable with your significant other that...
whatever language you guys can communicate in, you should feel comfortable doing whatever in that language. Yeah, exactly. I totally agree that in different situations, we tend to use different languages to make ourselves feel more comfortable. At this point, I don't see myself giving up all those standards for a specific person, but maybe.
Yeah, maybe. As long as they speak English. That's a good start. Yeah, that's a criteria. Okay. I have never thought about the language to whom I speak to in a relationship. There's no criteria? Yeah, it's not a problem for me. So as long as they can communicate with you. What if they don't speak English, French or Chinese? Oh my god.
If I really love you... Can you still fall in love with someone? But you can't even talk. How can you... Can you? Maybe you can. Yeah, that's the second question. How can you fall in love with someone that you cannot communicate with? Yeah. That's a real question. But you can hook up with someone that you can communicate with, I guess. Yeah, but how can I hook up with someone that I cannot communicate with?
You just find each other attractive and you just hook up and you don't understand a thing the other person is saying. We just make out without saying a word. Okay. If we started like that and we really fell in love with each other, even if we have the difficulties on language, I think I probably...
want to learn their language. It's not a problem for me. I mean, I like foreign languages. So it gives me an opportunity. It makes me feel well that I can speak your language. So that's why I don't feel awkward or I feel ashamed speaking French and speaking French to French people.
because I can speak French and you cannot speak English. And I already won, no matter how many mistakes that I made. I think that's a mentality that a lot of Chinese language learners still need to have. I don't notice that in English, I feel like there's not that many people, there's not that many native speakers who are going to correct you in a language
In a mean way. I think people would only correct you if they mean well, they mean to help you improve. But I find it's more prevalent for Chinese people to criticize each other for their language. Exactly. For example, some Chinese people mixing Chinese words.
English learners mixing English words with Chinese or their pronunciation is not good or they have an accent or their grammar is incorrect. I think we tend to be more judgmental about each other than native speakers are of us. And you mentioned two days ago that you think there's a competition. Yeah.
It's kind of a mental thing because when a foreign person who speaks to you, when you try or struggle to give a complete phrase, what they care about is that if they can understand you. If they do, there's no problem even if you make some kind of grammar mistakes. But for a Chinese person,
For example, we tend to compare our English with each other. That's why we tend to be kind of judgmental even if we don't want to. If someone speaks so well, I may feel a little bit jealous.
Yeah. I also think it's because they see other Chinese speakers make mistakes and they imagine if they make those mistakes, it's going to be awkward for them or they imagine it will be made fun of. So when they see those faults appearing in others, they get sensitive. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. We can feel awkward for the things that people around us do, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of natural. There's nothing to worry about. So what do you feel about accents? For me, accent is a big deal because I paid a lot of attention to accent. I have a friend who...
She said I pay so much attention to accent that people don't even care that you speak with a Chinese accent in France. So that's not a problem that you need to pay attention to. The problem is the grammar thing, is expression, the grammar.
capability to understand people or to engage with people, some cultural things, some knowledge, some history things. All these things matter, but I still do pay a lot of attention to my accent in French.
Because each time when I speak French, I try to speak it naturally. I try to act like French people do. That's why I think accent is very important. But again, I agree with her that it's really hard to get rid of your accent. Do you feel like you have an accent now with French?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I keep asking my friends about that, but they think a little bit difficult with me. Just as we said, Chinese people tend to judge each other with their foreign language. Yeah, I agree because my friends said that they can tell that I made a lot of effort in French accent, but still I cannot get rid of my Chinese accent.
Still a little bit. So I asked some of my French friends. They confirmed that I have a tiny, a gentle accent. A gentle accent? Is that the way you say it? Like a subtle accent? Yeah, a subtle accent, but still they can hear that I'm from an Asian country.
Clearly. So that's one thing that you can never get rid of, I assume. I don't know. I think...
I think it would be a lot of work to completely get rid of it. I think it's possible, but sometimes I feel like it's not that big of a deal. As long as people can understand me, I think it's even a feature of my speech. Yeah, exactly. It's like my signature speech. That's healthy that you just said, but it's kind of my problem.
I tend to be perfect on pronunciation while I'm not. So that drives me crazy.
I just thought of a story I wanted to share. It's not entirely relevant to this topic, but speaking of accent, so a couple of days ago, I just had a phone appointment with a dietician because I want to have some consultation about my eating problems. I think I have some kind of issue with food. Sometimes I binge and sometimes I fast, like not eat anything. So I booked a dietician appointment. Eating disorder disorder.
Kind of thing. Yeah. Not diagnosed, but I think I have an inclination. Definitely. Okay. So that's not the point. But the point is the dietician always spoke on the phone. And I just felt like she was more judgmental than I imagined a dietician should be. I think her tone was a little judgmental when I say, oh, I eat fast, I binge. And then she was like, oh, oh. And like the way she spoke just...
I didn't love it. It made me want to be more aggressive. And now instead of sharing, it made me want to be defensive. And I feel like that's not a very good tone of a dietitian. And her English sounds perfect, but I do pick up a little bit of Chinese accent here and there, like an Asian accent. Very, very subtle. Definitely not as much as my accent. I wasn't even sure if she's Chinese, but based on her accent,
subtle accent and her judgmentalness in our conversation. I just thought that she could be Asian. I was kind of racist against my own race. I was hoping that it would be a very supportive, like a therapeutical conversation, but it's not exactly what I expected. So I was like, hmm...
Sounds like she's a Chinese person. And I can totally see where her judgmentalness comes from. And then for the follow-up appointment, I got an email notification saying, oh, you have been booked with doctor, blah, blah, blah. And then the name is evidently Chinese. The first and last name is evidently Chinese. Okay. So I was like, yeah, I knew it. Yeah. And then...
So she was real judgmental. She was more judgmental than I'd imagined a dietitian should be. When I talked about my food issues, and connecting with her very subtle accent, I thought she could be Chinese and that could be why. And it turns out it's true. So what I'm saying is, if I didn't hear her accent, if she sounds a lot like a white person, I would not make that connection. But because of her very, very slight accent, I made that connection. And I think if...
In other contexts, it could be racist. Yeah. Yeah. In other contexts, it could be racist. If it's a Canadian, it would be racist. Yeah. But if she is a Chinese... I kind of get the leeway because I am a Chinese and I'm judging against my own race. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to tell that to her. But the point I was trying to make is that having a little bit of accent could...
make you more easily judged because of your race but that's only COVID situation because other times you meet someone in person and you would make judgments based on their appearance you would obviously see if that they're Asian or not as opposed to the accent yeah but I think your accent definitely gives a impression of how integrated this person is how how fresh of the boat they are mm-hmm
Having no accent gives you more freedom from those judgments. Yeah, sure. That's why I'm so crazy about that. But, well, again. Yeah, so these are our experiences with different languages. I hope the stories are relatable to my audience because most of my listeners are Chinese. And if they're listening to this episode, then they would understand.
be in a situation where they are navigating their life through different languages. But I guess, yeah, so these are our experiences. I'm still trying to figure out how exactly I feel about different languages and what exactly do I look for in making connections with other people in terms of using different languages. Yeah. And what I've been thinking is that in different ages, you have a different feeling
for a foreign language. Perhaps in a couple of years you will totally change your opinion about a different language. When I came to France, French people keep asking me that how I feel about French. And I started always with French language is a romantic language to Asian people. That's a stereotype but it's true. People think that French is romantic.
And I agree. But when I really started learning French, I don't think it's a romantic language, but I
I did discover many other aspects of this kind of language. The way how it is not... There are so many, for example, there are so many exceptions. For example, the pronunciation is so hard. For example, it's so funny to judge someone in French. Many other kinds of aspects.
So the more you learn it, the more I want to say the more you learn it, the more you discover it. And perhaps your stereotype of one language will disappear. So now for me, French is not romantic at all.
Where do you see yourself in the future in terms of learning a new language or perfecting your current languages? What do you see yourself working toward? I really want to be more comfortable speaking English and French, especially in English because I'm not so comfortable with it. And after a couple of years,
I want to learn a new language because I've learned several languages, but I end up early. So I didn't continue. So perhaps I will pick them up. For example, my Japanese and my Spanish, I've learned for a while, but I stopped. So I really want to be fluent with all the languages I know.
That's my goal. How about you? I think for my French, my realistic goal is just to be fluent enough to go by, to travel. To travel. I think it's like a snowball, right? The more you know, the more you learn. I don't feel the motivation to learn a new language unless I'm going to use it.
I kind of believe in the best way to learn a language is just to be in the environment. So if I'm not going to be able to practice in an immersive environment, then I wouldn't feel the ambition to really be fluent. Maybe just enough to go by. Like with my French. And with my English, I hope to minimize my accent. Maybe not completely get rid of it, but to improve on it.
For me, you're incredibly fluent in English.
Thank you. I can definitely see rooms for improvement. Okay. So thank you a lot for this invitation. I feel excited to do my very first podcast. Sorry, guys, if I feel a little bit awkward speaking English, but I'm just so happy. And keep following the Inside Out, guys.
It's so funny. I'm advertising for you. You're so good at it. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.
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