Andrea Berta: Who is Arsenal's incoming sporting director?
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. The only way to score is, of course, to play with a hand break off.

Hello, I'm Ian Stone. This is Handbrake Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. So the Arsenal are through to the quarterfinal of the Champions League. I do like saying that. I've got to be honest with you. We beat PSV 9-3 on aggregate. It's nice to be on the right end of one of those scorelines in the Champions League knockout stages. LAUGHTER

I just read that. Robbie, my producer, wrote that. That's funny, actually. It's funny. We're going to start, folks. Sorry, that sounded patronising as well. Anyway, we're going to start by focusing our attention on our incoming sporting director today before turning our attention to last night's game. Real Madrid in the quarters. And Chelsea on the weekend. I'm joined by Art de Rocher and James McNicholas. Morning. Morning.

Good morning, Ian. Morning. Have you looked at the script, by the way, that Robbie sent us? Either of you? Have you looked at the script? You have? Oh, he's nodding. Yeah, you know, there's a question there. How was Super Shark Highway, Ian, is what it said. Because we were looking for alternatives to last night's game. Because, you know, there's...

We were 7-1 up and what are you going to do? So we're looking for other things that we could watch. Super Shock Highway came up quite a bit, which was the Fatboy Slim follow-up to Superstar DJ. Was it Fatboy Slim? No, it was Chemical Brothers. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I didn't watch Super Shock Highway. You were at the game, Art. Were you at the game, by the way, James? No, I wasn't actually. I had childcare and I put my... I can't believe this. I put my ticket on the ticket exchange and somebody bought it. So I'm one of the lucky ones. Yeah.

There were a few empty seats there yesterday. I was amazed the ticket exchange didn't crash with the number of tickets being offered. I was offered three tickets yesterday, by the way, within the afternoon. A lot of people looked at the scoreline, looked at how cold it was and thought, nah. But while I was there, I was there. Although, hands up, I have to say, maybe one or two of you saw me leaving on 86 minutes last night.

I just thought, oh, you know what? What is going to happen? I know we've been quite vocal on this podcast about people leaving early. Did you know? Did you see me sneaking out? No, I didn't actually. I think I was probably slumped in my seat at that

point. Yeah, fair enough. Well, a mate of mine, I was going, I thought I got away quite nicely and then a mate from two rows back went, Stoney! I thought, no, not now. Not now. I'm just getting out of here. So I head down, out the ground, home in 35 minutes. It's a lot easier. It is, I'll be honest with you. Anyway, let's talk

shall we, about Andrea Berta, our new sporting director. We're joined by the athletics David Ornstein, who broke the story last weekend that Andrea Berta had reached an agreement with Arsenal to become our new sporting director. Hey, David, thanks for joining us. My pleasure.

Now, last weekend, you broke the news on The Athletic that Andrea Berta has reached an agreement with Arsenal to become their new sporting director. Can you give us the details and his appointment? Yeah, so Andrea Berta is in agreement with Arsenal that he will become their new sporting director. At the time of reporting that, Arsenal were in the process of finalising contracts. That was expected to happen in the subsequent days, which is now. We're well into the following week. So,

So if everything goes to plan, it will all get signed off and then he'll begin work. I don't know of any delay. I think they want to fill this position that's been vacant on a permanent basis, which had been occupied yesterday.

in an interim way by Jason Eito, who was assistant to Edu, who resigned in November. And he stepped up and he's been occupying the role. But now it's Berta that's come through the recruitment process, which included Jason Eito. And Berta is going to come with a wealth of experience from Atletico Madrid. And he's also worked previously in Italy. He's 53 years old, Italian. He's

He doesn't speak amazing English, but it's something he's been working on. He's been spending a lot of time in the UK and London specifically. So Arsenal will hope that they have got the right person to lead them forward in what's a massive appointment. You saw the work that Edu did previously to help Arsenal rise to the point that they're at now, which is being competitive again. But

but they'll want to go further and start to win things. And a sporting director will be at the centre of that when it comes to recruitment, to contracts, to first team matters. But as they say, the proof will be in the pudding. And with a sporting director, it tends that

their impact is measured over a space of years rather than days, weeks or months. Who at the club was involved in the decision-making to bring Berta in? So, Arsenal's football leadership essentially were driving this process, which is managing director Richard Garlick. He, of course, is

Vinay Venkatesham who was chief executive he left at the end of last season and Garlick was named MD and then you have Tim Lewis who's the executive vice chair really he's the Cronkies man on the ground he helped them with their takeover all those years ago their investment into the club and then they became full owners he was a lawyer at Clifford Chance and has more recently taken a role at the club on a sort of permanent basis full-time a

Of course, Josh Kroenke, on behalf of the ownership, he's a director at Arsenal, was involved throughout overseeing and essentially approving it in the end with his father, Stan. And then you had input from the manager, Mikel Arteta. And it's kind of those four individuals on behalf of Arsenal that were the key men in this. They were aided by a recruitment firm, and that's not unusual, especially in the early stages of this sort of process where you...

bring a number of candidates, maybe a long list to the conversation. You sift through them, you assess them. Some slip by the wayside, some get taken further forward. Some don't want to be involved. Some you don't want to be involved. And then you narrow it down. And really towards the end, it was Eto'o and Andrea Berta.

it was Berta who got the nod. Do you expect Berta's introduction to change anything within the structure at Arsenal? You could look at this and say it's been done the wrong way round. The sporting director needs to be in place first and then traditionally they will appoint the head coach or manager in this continental model. But Mikel Arteta was already in position at

Like Eddie Howe was at Newcastle when Dan Ashworth and then Paul Mitchell came in. Sometimes it does happen the other way around. And you're going to have to find a way of working so that the manager isn't the boss of the sporting director. And that's an accusation that some may have raised of Edu and Arteta. They may raise of Berta and Arteta.

That would surprise me a bit because he's been in this game a long time and built a relatively strong reputation. Now, there are suggestions that Arteta was heavily in favour of this. Again, we don't know the exact ins and outs. And there's one more person in the equation who I'm sure Berta will work closely with, and that's James King.

He was at Arsenal before as a sort of legal counsel. He moved to the PFA and then he came back to Arsenal once Garlick left his role of Director of Football Operations for Managing Director and James King has become Director or Head of Football Operations. That means he'll be heavily involved in contract negotiations and he will work with Berta very closely, I suspect. But

It's pretty seismic because of the role and because of who it is in the background. No association to Arsenal previously, heavily linked with other positions, looked at by a number of top clubs. But he decided for Arsenal. And so that's potentially a positive sign. Change is on the way in exactly what form. We're going to have to wait and see.

Thank you, David. I think we should also, when we have this discussion, mention Art. When you did that Q&A on the website and you were basically asking what do you see as the priorities for the new sporting director? John C had a

a comment. He basically said, I'm going to just read what he said. He's a fan who said, four different things, the priorities. Going into the season with a complete squad. Last three years going into the season with gaping holes in the squad has been frustrating. Selling players before their value starts to drop, i.e. truss-out is what he said. Contract renewals for key players and ensuring youth players aren't leaving for free. Art, first of all, do you agree with those? He got quite a lot of likes from that little...

I think that list is probably the one you go with. What I would say is it's probably easier to make the list than actually see it through. It sounds so simple, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. It sounds really simple. But I think that first point especially is the one that's going to be

because what is a complete squad and what does that actually look like? I'm not sure because there are so many different ways this Arsenal squad could go from the summer onwards. I think you're kind of at a natural point where you've got that fork in the road and you can take a few different directions. So I guess it comes down to what

Both Berta Arteta and the other higher ups want and are they aligned in what they want? I think that's the big question heading into the summer. Yeah, quite. Are they aligned is a big question. Actually, James, we've talked about this quite a lot.

that you need everyone to be going forward in the same direction. You would hope that those, the discussions when they would appoint someone like Berta would include those things. Do you think, by the way, there were gaping holes in the squad in the last three years? Gaping seems a little dramatic. I think, I think there's a bit of hindsight in some cases, but if you'd asked us all last summer, we probably all would have said, oh, number nine would be good. And it didn't happen. And look where we've ended up. So yeah,

gaping, I don't know, gaps. Yeah. I do think despite that, I think, you know, recently we might look at this season and we might look at this season's recruitment and feel a bit underwhelmed. I do think if you look back

say, from 2021 until now, actually, there's been a lot of really good work done at Arsenal in terms of player identification, bringing those players in, you know, securing players under long contracts. And if Edu still wanted to be at Arsenal, he'd still be there, right? I mean, no one was sort of calling for his head or anything like that. So I think...

What I'm really interested to see is kind of to what extent we see continuity, to what extent we see change. You know, is Andre Berta going to go in there and rip everything up and start over again? And how long will that process take? Or is he going to be able to work with the existing staff?

And you speak about being in alignment. I think that chemistry, that chemistry is key and job interviews will tell you so much, but you know, we can all think of someone who's like really good in an interview situation, but a bit different when they get on the job. Some people are really good at passing exams, but only when you start, do you really know if it's going to work? Ask Manchester United who waited eight months to hire Dan Ashworth and then realised a few months in, actually this chemistry isn't quite right. Um,

Hopefully it will be. And I think the chemistry between Berta and Arteta is probably the most key relationship there, because that's what Edu had with the manager. You know, that easy chemistry, that rapport. They were in alignment a lot of the time. And if we can recreate that with the new guy, I think we'll have done well. Yeah, it's like taking... You only really know when you take a holiday with the family, right?

Yeah. That's it, yeah. The Bertas and the Artetas are about to go on holiday together. Let's see how things work out 24-7 stuck in a rather cramped camper van. Get the Uno out. Well, yeah, but you have to...

alignment does seem to be the key. Contract renewals for key players. I mean, Art, this goes back to partly what you say about how do we want this to go? And like you say, it's a bit of a fork in the road. I mean, there has been talk. I think, James, you've said this. We might have to let someone that we love

that we love go in order to build the squad in a particular position. Those contract renewals now are key though, aren't they? Although having said that, I will look at Liverpool and say we've got three players in their final year. Things seem to be going pretty well for them over there. So, you know, it's not the end of the world if we don't get this sorted, but it would be nice to have some stability for the next four or five years, knowing you've got your spine and your key players ready.

signed up yeah that was the big thing after the first title challenge all those players signing on until 27 now i think you're probably looking at okay you've got the priorities like Saliba, Saka, Martinelli as well you'd probably include in that and Magalhaes but now you have to make those decisions on the Trossard as in Chenko as well this summer who did play well yesterday i thought

But when you get inside that two years, I guess it just comes down to, can you see a future with that player in the squad, whether it's in the first team or on the bench and definitely

with Trossard's age I guess that's why John Cena and in my head I'm imagining that's John Cena but I know it probably I don't imagine it is John Cena but you know what if it's John Cena thank you we love the wrestling but yeah I guess with Trossard's age that's why he's the example that John's gone with and outside of that I guess where are you actually going to build funds because Jorginho and Partey if they do leave

this summer it'll be for free how do you actually generate those funds from within the squad I think that's another question for Berta and Arteta to kind of mull over this summer.

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James, you've often talked about selling. We haven't been very good at selling, at getting good value on our players. It's just as important a part of the job as buying well, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And sometimes, as you say, that means making money.

decisions on players that are difficult to make. I think sometimes Arsenal have been a bit guilty of waiting too long to make those decisions. Trossard's an interesting case. He's at a point in his career where he's going to be looking at his last big contract. Are Arsenal prepared to give it to him? I'm not so sure. And if not,

Maybe it's the right thing to sell him. It might sound crazy selling an attacker at this point in time, but hopefully we bring in a few too. Yeah, I think the contract renewal piece is maybe like the immediate priority in some respects for Berta because if you think about the summer, you'd like to think a lot of the groundwork for the summer has already been done and he'll be inheriting quite a lot of that. We've spoken about Zubimendi on here. We've spoken about people like Benjamin Sesko as a long-term target and

There should be things in place to enable Arsenal to move forward with those deals. Joao Garcia, the goalkeeper, is another one.

But the contracts are something that really need addressing and that where Arsenal have kind of been taking their time, maybe waiting until they have this appointment in place before they really move forward. I don't expect them to kick off in earnest until the end of the season, but some of the names who've got two years left, you know, you all know the big ones, Saka, Saliba, Gabriel, Gabriel Martinelli's got two years left, although he's got a plus one on that contract. Those really need to start.

We need to get the ball rolling there because they're vital. And I think we always talk about recruitment. We always talk about that piece of it. We talk about selling too, but there is a third part, right, which is keeping the core of the group together. And that's essential if we're going to continue to challenge over the years to come. Just on the contracts as well, I'm kind of interested to see how the contract lengths develop now. Because obviously when they all signed, it was four-year deals, sometimes five-year deals.

But we've seen at other clubs, they've gone and kind of stretched that length a bit more. I don't know whether Arsenal would be able to do that or if they would want to do that, but...

obviously if someone signs a four-year deal you're back in the same situation two years later so it's almost like you're signing a two-year contract for another negotiation so I'd be quite interested to see that how that side of things um develops as well yeah I mean we we are in a competitive environment aren't we to be fair and you know William Saliba

incredible player and I love the noises he's been making about the Arsenal and talking about winning trophies and how happy he is and he looked pretty happy when he was sat in the press conference but you know what Ray

Real Madrid, you know, that's a major football force in the world. And if they're interested in you, I can't, I'm not surprised. His head might be turned a little bit. One more thing just before we move on. Ensuring youth players aren't leaving for free. James, how difficult is this? We've lost, we lost Chido, Obi Martin, Aidan Heaven was playing for, they're both playing for Manchester United in the last,

few weeks. It was quite hard apparently to hold on to Myles Lewis-Skelly. We managed to do that. These things are difficult and Arsenal by the way do seem to have a progression from the youth football into the first team but

If you're competing at the top level, these guys have got to be the very best. And what I'm saying is it's incredibly difficult and I don't imagine it will get any easier. No, I've got to say, by the way, listening to you talk about the progression, you've got to tell that to Nathan Butler-Odeji. I mean, where was his appearance last night? I was furious.

He only came to see Nathan Butler-Odegaard, surely. He's, what, 22 now? He's about 34 now. In Arsenal footballer years, yes, that is true. But to bring it back to a serious point, I think, yes, it is difficult to keep hold of those young players. I think...

I do think sometimes this issue is a bit overblown. I think a degree of kind of attrition and losing certain young players is part of what an academy is about. I think what we need to do better is maybe protect ourselves, you know, so that we're letting these players leave in situations where Arsenal have more control. So we get them on, you know, that scholarship, that first pro deal, and then we're in a position where we can sell them. How can we do that?

by creating these clear pathways. And not all those pathways will lead to the Arsenal first team, but that's okay. You know, I think Arsenal should be looking at the loan market, getting some of these players out, playing football. I think that would create a culture where people know, okay, I might not get an opportunity in Mikel Arteta's first team because it's highly, highly competitive, but I might get a loan spell at a championship club, an area division club, you know, another Scottish SPL club. I don't know, some place that gives me some profile, some platform where,

to progress my career. And then Arsenal can be beneficiaries of that. I know people point to Mika Bierith and, oh, have Arsenal made a mistake because he scored a few hat-tricks? But actually, financially, that wasn't a bad deal for Arsenal. It's one where they bedded in that kind of sell-on clause that gave them that bit of protection.

That's what I want to see more of. I want to see Arsenal players going out from the academy. Yes, some graduating to the first team, but I want to see them having good careers at the high end of European football. And I think Bieris is a really positive example in that respect. Let's check in with the Athletics Spanish football writer, Dermot Corrigan, on Andrea Berta's time at Atletico Madrid. Hey, guys. Yeah, there have been plenty of highs and lows, really, during Berta's time. There were plenty of highs and lows during Berta's time at Atletico Madrid.

did some real transfer coups Antoine Griezmann for 30 million back in 2014 Jan Oblak for 16 million from Benfica was super signing England defender Kieran Trippier 20 million helped him win La Liga in his first season in Spain so they were all undoubted successes

Team won two La Liga titles and reached two Champions League finals while Berta was at the club. They also had some poor seasons when they were out of Europe early and way off the pace in La Liga. And Berta's exact role in the biggest decisions at Atletico was always difficult to determine. Given the different voices with the San Atletico's hierarchy, it's hard to say for sure who had responsibility for their successes and the failures. And just over a year ago, Atletico reshuffled that hierarchy. Former Hestifute agent Carlos Bucero was hired to run the football operations.

So it was no real surprise when Berta left this January. On paper, he was in charge of the club's sporting operations. But in practice, he was not always the most important voice when it came to making decisions on transfers and definitely not team selection. Atletico chief executive Miguel Ancal-Gilmarin, he's the guy in charge of the purse strings at Atletico, keeps it safe.

a careful look at when money is being spent and he does a lot of the biggest deals personally he knows agents like Jorge Mendes or club executives like Barca's Yann Laporte for the biggest deals Phil Marine would be the guy who does the final say

Simeone also has very clear ideas about what players he wants. South Americans, Luis Suarez, Rodrigo de Paul, Julián Alvarez this season, very clearly identified by Simeone and he worked hard himself to get them to join. Berta would have had a say in the overall squad planning, a big say in the overall squad planning, managed the club's scouting network, worked with agents negotiating contracts. It was also his responsibility to make sure Atletico kept within La Liga's strict financial control rules, which is not always easy for Atletico.

There were transfers which didn't go particularly well. 126 million for Jao Felix in 2019 was a huge amount of money for Atletico to spend. And it was never clear he was going to fit with Simeone. Jao Felix is obviously hugely talented, but not particularly hardworking. And that's not a good fit in a Simeone team. Berta has always been a low profile guy. Some Spanish sporting directors say

People like Monchi when he was at Sevilla or Deco at Barcelona. Now you regularly hear from them on the TV, you know, to speak before games or at UEFA competition draws, do press conferences even sometimes. But Atletico had others who did that role, you know, whether defending the decisions and transfers or representing the club. That was never Berta's job. He didn't have a public facing job really at all at Atletico.

He did have lots of experience in making deals, built up superb contacts in Europe and South America. Back in his time in Italy as well, he did a lot of transfers. So, you know, that should be really useful for Arsenal in being able to get deals done, those relationships and experience that Berta has. I'm not sure he'd be the one identifying main targets or setting transfer budgets. So maybe hiring Berta is a sign that Arteta as manager and the financial decision makers at it

Arsenal, guys closer to the owners, they'll still retain the power that they currently have. Berta will be useful for them, helpful for them, but not really a challenge to their power if it works out the same as it did at Atletico. Well, it sounds like Berta might be someone who's been brought in to get deals done more than sourcing the players himself. Art, is that how you see it? Really? I mean, we talked just before about how things have to be in alignment, but...

If he's a guy who can make a deal, now obviously we're seeing in the wider world how that can have all sorts of consequences. But... Make Arsenal great again. Yes. My thing at the minute is make Arsenal French again, but we won't go there. Well, hey, listen, whatever works, right? But if he can get deals done, this is what we want, right? Or this is certainly part of what we want, aren't we? Yeah, definitely. And...

It all comes back to, I guess, what we were talking about before with Trossard being able to actually make tough decisions at times, whether it's making a deal going outwards of the club or coming into the club. And I think when you look at Atletico Madrid as a selling club over the past decade, they've been

pretty good at that the only thing i would say is the context might be slightly different so i got their kind of top this pouches up like on the monitor next to me and of the top five three of them are either 23 or 24 years old and i don't think arsenal would want to sell their 23 or 24 year olds

So I think that would maybe be an interesting area where is actually the skill set in making those deals for the type of players that you want to move on. But then I guess coming into the club as well, you actually want someone who's able to facilitate that and facilitate that quite early doors as well. Yeah. James, do you think...

Mikel Arteta might have more of a say on transfers than he did when working with the do. I mean, apparently he's very keen on this happening, on Andrew Berta coming in. So obviously he feels comfortable in the way that he thinks he's going to work with him and hopefully that will be the way it is. But do you think this is how it's going to go, that he...

he's actually going to be a bit more in front of these deals. To be honest, I think he already has been. I mean, we're always right about the transfers and how they go down on the Athletic. And I lose track of the amount of times we've said, you know, this player was the choice of Mikel Arteta. He was the driving force in the negotiations. I think he already has great influence. And that's not to discount the work the recruitment guys do to support that and alongside that. But I think he ultimately has final veto and final say. Yeah.

I think that's a really interesting thing about this appointment. You know, speaking to people outside of Arsenal, in some cases outside of England, they found the process of the appointment a bit backwards, that Mikel Arteta has been involved and that he's had a say in it. Because I think traditionally in Europe, the sporting director is kind of a role above the manager, right? He has oversight over everything. And the sporting director appoints the manager sometimes or helps with the appointment of the manager. Conventionally, yes. But Arsenal...

It doesn't operate that way there. And it hasn't really since around, I guess, 2021 when Arteta was appointed to manager. We've only had, what, three, two, three sporting directors anyway, haven't we? Eddie was actually our first ever sporting director. He was technical director prior to that and he was promoted sporting director.

But Arsenal have always viewed, certainly in the case of Edu and Arteta, they viewed it as a partnership rather than a hierarchy. They kind of saw them on an even keel with sort of equal degree of authority over recruitment. I imagine that will be the same for Berta. So it's not strictly true to say, you know, Arteta's interviewed his own boss or what have you. But so I think Arteta will continue to have...

significant influence on transfers but also there are different types of transfers I mean there's the immediate needs and priorities of the first team for example a number nine this summer and it's probably quite right that Arteta should have a big say on who that might be

But then there are other types of transfers where, for example, you're signing development players, players between the ages of 18 and 21 who aren't immediately of interest to the first team, but who are good investments and potential squad players like Sverre Naipan, the Norwegian midfielder we were linked with in January. I

I think of those more as club signings and actually Berta was quite involved in a lot of those kinds of deals in Atleti signing young talent that could supplement Simeone's squad that could be first team players maybe in the future or if not assets to move on and I'd like to see Arsenal being a bit more proactive in that area. Alright, I mean look we

We will discuss this more in terms of signings and hopefully the squad staying together. Let's talk about last night's game after the break.

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Join us and play all New York Times games at nytimes.com slash games. Subscribe by March 16th to get a special offer. They get a handbrake off and you can see that they are more free to play. This is Handbrake Off, the Arsenal podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Arsenal 2, PSV Eindhoven 2. Seven changes from the weekend. Lots of left-backs. LAUGHTER

A tremendous number of left-backs. Nice to see Ben White start, James. Fun to see Kieran Tierney at left wing as well. Fun to see Kieran Tierney playing, to be honest with you. I did enjoy it yesterday. I did enjoy it. I was a bit cold. And obviously I left slightly early. But it wasn't... Arsenal are quite nice when there's no pressure on. I think that's it, isn't it? I was exchanging messages with someone during the first half and they were like...

I'm quite enjoying this watching this like weird team and I was saying I know exactly what you mean it's sort of there was a kind of Carling Cup sort of fun to the whole thing guys we haven't seen for a while I was like remember Jakob Kimmior oh yeah like that kind of thing players playing in the wrong position Tierney and Marino in the front three and

I think we've been involved in such high pressure, high stress title races for like two and a half seasons that actually probably having such a low stakes game was just a relief to everyone involved. Yeah. And do you ask the questions before we start recording about when...

Even Perisic scored the goal, grabbed the ball and then ran back to the halfway line. Like, come on, Lazio, you only need another six. You weren't, nobody was worried. Nobody was worried. No, no. I was saying before you got ahead, James, that my favourite moment of the match was actually PSV's second goal, the chip. Beautiful finish. I just thought in terms of pure football, I actually made like an involuntary gasp

as it happened. On all girls, involuntary. I don't know. You can probably script a gasp. Anyway, go on, sorry. But yeah, that was my moment of the match. It wasn't an Arsenal moment, but I just thought, wow, what a finish. And that probably sums up where my head was at for most of the game. Again, like you guys, I was just there to have fun, catch a vibe and go home.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were a lot of tourists in last night. It did feel a bit Carling Cup friendly.

Carabao Cup, whatever it is. There's a lot of people with bags from the club shop. There was a lot of movement backwards and forwards. People bringing drinks for children who apparently can't go through half a football without having a coconut hot dog or something. Don't get me started on football catering at stadiums. Anyway, Raheem Sterling played really well yesterday, James. Obviously, what happened was he then got booked and he's banned for the quarterfinals. But he'll come back to get the winner at the Bernabeu. I thought he looked sharp last night.

Raheem. I mean, I really did. And what he was doing, he was playing those little sharp inside passes and then going for the return in a way I haven't seen. And I, was it just the fact that he was so pissed off after the weekend being left on the bench when Kieran Tierney's brought on to try and get a goal, especially at Manchester United, that he just went, right, I'm going to show you. And that was the reaction that we got. I enjoyed watching him yesterday. He had a really good first half, didn't he? And I,

I don't know about you, I was at home watching the sofa, but I was on my feet when he went through for that one-on-one at the end of the half. I don't think I've wanted an Arsenal player to score more this season. Yeah, I just sort of like, I really wanted it for him. I did as well. I didn't think it was going to happen though, I'll be honest with you. I didn't think he'd get that far, to be honest. I was slightly surprised that he managed to stay ahead of the defenders for that long.

I wasn't surprised when the finish was a bit tame because he covered a lot of ground. Listen, the assist for the second goal. I mean, the first goal is a really nice little turn and shift inside. He has absolutely taken out. He missed Zinchenko's goal, I think, because he was sparked out on the floor. But the second assist is beautiful. Like, goes past two players. And that's as good a cross as I've seen. Sometimes it's a really brilliant cross, that.

I'm not even sure that is Raheem Sterling's game. I never thought of him as a player who's like swinging in balls from the byline. But listen, I'm really pleased for him. I think it's probably his best showing in an Arsenal shirt ever.

You have to consider the context and you have to bear in mind that this was a bit of a dead rubber and maybe, maybe he was afforded that little bit more time and space than he would be in kind of a Premier League game. But please for him and let's hope he can continue to contribute to him now at the end of the season. Yeah, confidence helps, doesn't it? Nice to see Ben White on the pitch as well. You know, 78 minutes. He looks a bit rusty, but...

You know, it's been quite a long layoff, but such an important part of the squad. And I've talked quite a lot about that right-hand side and Bukayo Saka and Martin Erdegaard and him. And I think we've so missed him. As much as I love the way Jurian Timbers played in that position, I'm not quite sure how you dislodge him either.

I was so glad to see Ben White back in the team. Yeah, 100%. And on those two, they're just different players. They're different types of players. And I think when you saw quite early on Ben White pretty much as high as Raheem Sterling was trying to get across into the box, you were like, oh, I haven't seen that for a while. So it was quite nice to have a reminder of what Arsenal can do on that right-hand side. And I think...

Well, Chelsea probably won't start, but it'll be nice to see how involved he can be after the international break. And I think in the Real Madrid ties, I think it'll be quite an interesting balance to strike what kind of right back you go for. Is it a Timber who's more defensively solid, maybe at the Bernabeu? Or is it White who's giving you more attack and threat? Just on the subject of that right-hand side, you won't have seen this, Ian, because you were at the game, but the cameras did cut...

to Bukayo Saka at one point. And I've got to say, it was during the second half, he looked absolutely bored out of his mind. He looked like a man who'd put his ticket on the ticket exchange and it had failed to sell and he'd come out in the cold. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. Maybe he's just desperate to get out there. But yeah, we might not be too far away from being able to maybe recreate that right-hand-sided trio of

White, Odegaard and Saka. And it's been so long since we saw that consistently. Do you think, by the way, there is a feeling about getting him fit for one or both legs at a Real Madrid game? Because it concerns me. I mean, look, I was watching Martinelli run the bat last night and obviously he's over his hamstring injury as far as I can see. And these guys do know what they're doing, but...

It does concern me with an injury as bad as that and with a tie as glamorous as that. You want your best players on the pitch.

And I think about Tottenham playing Harry Kane in the Champions League final after Lucas Moura scored a hat-trick for them. But Harry Kane had to play. I think it was a massive error. I mean, I'm very glad they made that error. I'll be honest with you right now. But it concerns me a little bit. What do you think, James, by the way? Do you think... I don't know how far off he is. I've seen pictures of him training, so obviously he's not too far away. But Real Madrid is, what, three weeks? The last I heard...

They expect him to return to full training, so full contact training at some point this month with a view to being involved from when we return after the international break in April. That's kind of the hopeful outcome, assuming there's no setbacks or complications or issues. That Madrid game does come around very, very quickly, as you say. I think the home leg is the 8th, am I right in that? Yeah, April the 8th.

Only one game before that at the start of April, which is Everton away. I don't know. I'd love to see him on the pitch. My gut says it might come a fraction too soon that he might be more likely to be involved maybe as a substitute than as a starter. I don't know. What do you think, Art? Yeah, I guess all the conversations around this up to this point anyway has been about

oh, will it be ready for before the international break? And when you have conversations with people, they're quite, I guess, insistent that no, they're going to take their time with it and they're not going to rush him back because they don't want to make a mistake like you mentioned, Ian, that Tottenham did with Harry Kane. So my instinct is to go with

similar train of thought of James's so not trying to rush him back but just when the time is right and it seems like say with Martinelli the time just seemed to be right for him to come back and he hasn't had he hasn't looked like he's had many issues in the little substitute appearances he's had since coming back no because when he starts sprinting it's

full on isn't it and you go oh my god but he's a young guy and you know decent powers of recovery and let's take a moment shall we you know to enjoy the fact that we got Real Madrid in the quarter finals of the Champions League I mean there's a lot of people moan about you know we haven't won a trophy for four years now and

and maybe have gone a little bit backwards this year. It's not even a moan, it's just really more of an observation, which I think you made, James, the other day, that it's not quite, you know, this season has not gone the way we would have wanted. But we have Real Madrid in the quarterfinals of the Champions League, and I think we should appreciate where we are compared to four or five years ago. Yeah, I totally agree. Where does that fixture sit, by the way? Like that first leg against Real Madrid in terms of games at the Emirates?

how high up is that? How big is that? I think it's got to be right up there, hasn't it? I think it's probably going to be one, but one thing I would say is, so I don't even remember last season in the Champions League, the Porto game, that felt a lot bigger than the Bayern game at the Emirates. I don't know if you guys feel the same. Like,

I felt the Porto game carried so much more weight and the atmosphere was just there from minute one. We had to get through that game. We had to get through that game. Whereas Bayern, it was like, well, not free hit as such, but you feel like, listen, how good are we? And as it turned out, not quite good enough. And maybe this one has a similar vibe. I wouldn't want a similar vibe. I would want the vibe of Porto.

to be there for this one because I felt the buy-in game there was a bit of

apprehension from fans from the players on the pitch i just felt there was a bit of playing within yourself whereas the porto game i think it was just going going for it all out so in my head i'm hoping that that home game is more like the porto one well james on that point that art just made um i mean there's no doubt the team believes they can they can win this competition

you know, if we do get past Real Madrid and we end up with PSG, we beat them in the group stage. I mean, this is a different PSG. I don't think there's any doubt about that. But we beat them in the group stage and we beat them comfortably. The boys believe they can go all the way. Whether we can without a recognised number nine, well, they have to find a way of playing. But,

Maybe it will be a bit more like that. We got quarterfinals last year. We want to get semifinals or better this year. I think, yeah, there's a different complexion this season, partly because the league is kind of done in a way that it wasn't last year. You know, when we went out against Bayern, at least as far as I recall, we were right in it. And so people were kind of like, oh, philosophical about it. I think it feels like it's all on the Champions League for us this season. I think Liverpool going out is massive.

I don't know about you, but to me, that makes our half of the draw. There was a moment last night where I thought Atleti might be going through and I was like, wow, our half's really opened up for us. I still think, obviously, getting past Madrid would be incredibly tough, but you look at that potential semi-final, you think that might be okay, might have a chance. It suddenly feels more, I don't know if it's just me as a fan kidding myself because the league is gone, but it all feels a bit more plausible to me now. And look, we don't have a centre-forward, but

Last time we got to a Champions League final, we didn't have a bat four and we managed it. We had Matthew Flamini at left back for 10 games. We didn't let in a goal. So, you know what? Stranger things have happened. And we all enjoyed Liverpool going out to PSG, by the way, didn't we? I mean, it was a great game. Great game. But sad Liverpool fans, never not funny.

Chelsea. Sunday. Anyway, we'll talk more about Madrid in the coming weeks. And those people lucky enough to be at the Emirates to see Mbappe and Rodrigo and Vinicius Jr. Who took, by the way, the worst penalty I've ever seen last night. Absolutely awful. Before that, we've got a few games. We've got Chelsea at home. Big game this. Big game this. Because if we win, I would say top four is pretty much secure. Yeah.

Art, you're smiling. Why are you smiling? No reason. Oh, okay. Just smiling for no reason. Oh, that's good. I'm glad to see you're happy. No, but you know, I was looking at the table thinking if we beat them, we're about eight or nine points clear of fifth place. And at that point, we can sort of coast into those top four positions. Whereas if Sunning Calamitous happens...

We're right in that fight. So that's the point I was making, that he was smiling and angry. It's just such a funny, I guess, statement to have to make after the season that Arsenal have had. But you're right. You're right. So...

I apologise for that. Well, don't forget, guys, don't forget, Liverpool play in the Carabao Cup this weekend, so we'd also have a chance to narrow the gap to just 12 points. LAUGHTER

That is true. Put some pressure on them. That is true. They're wobbling. They're wobbling, guys. Yeah. Hopefully we'll have enough to beat them and there'll be a good atmosphere there, I would have thought. There'll be a good atmosphere. James, will you be at the game? I'm assuming you will be at the game. Yeah, I'll go to this one. You'll go to this one? You'll gain. Sorry, Ticket Exchange. I'm turning up for this one. I've been promised Nathan Butler-Adeji is starting, so I will go.

I think Chelsea's a big game for me, as many people know. My brother's a Chelsea fan. My dad's a Chelsea fan. So it's like the big rivalry in our family. So I can't have us lose that one, to be honest. You know, it's difficult for me to get too emotionally involved with the league games at this point, but this one, this one I can manage it for sure. Yeah.

I'm looking forward to being emotionally involved. Yeah. On Sunday. Yeah. In a way that I honestly wasn't last night. And I think nor was pretty much anyone as far as I can tell. Yeah. That's what it was. I was missing from last night. Absolutely. Any anger at all. A couple of grumbles. But it's nice, isn't that? Well,

I know. I go to football for anger. I go out to get irritated and then, you know, have a pint afterwards and just go, okay, everything's all right. Anyway, let's have a song to finish. James, what have you got for us? I was looking for songs about Madrid, Ian. It's all about Madrid for me now. And there's a Spanish ska band from the 1980s called The Refrescos.

And they have a song. Are you making this up? I swear this is true. The refresco. It sounds like an ice lolly. I had to double Google it and check because I was like, this feels not real. I was like, I saw it on YouTube. Did you bing it? I asked Jeeves, guys. I just explored every avenue. But they've got a song about the city of Madrid called Aki No I Playa. Here there is no beach, which is true. So we're also learning something as we go.

Nice. There is no beach. That is true. But is that like a statement of we're not messing about in Madrid? Yeah, I think it's like sort of the implication is kind of integral to the Madridista identity. Here there is no beach. Great city, by the way. Any of you lucky enough to be going to Madrid, it's a wonderful place. The food is great.

Art, what about you? Do you listen to much Schoolboy Q, Ian? Schoolboy Q? He was round here the other day having tea. Is he? Oh, love Schoolboy Q. No idea who you're talking about. After school, obviously, he came round. Yeah, he came round. I was helping with his homework, to be honest with you. He's got some very difficult algebra problems he wasn't working out.

No, who's Schoolboy Q? You know what? I don't like the way you said that to me. That was a little bit, first of all, smiling inanely for no reason at all. And then going, hey, granddad, you know who this is? Of course you don't. Anyways, tell us about Schoolboy Q. He dropped an album about 11 years ago called Oxymoron.

And there's a song on there called Hell of a Night. And that's my pick today, inspired by Madrid as well. Hoping for a hell of a night out there.

Do you know what? I mean, after all that, it was a decent choice. I'll give you that. I'm going to listen to Schoolboy Q later on and his dropped album. I hope it didn't get damaged when it was dropped. I feel like I might have done that joke before. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I've got... I was... Do you know what? You know what? You're taking the piss out of me. I've picked Genesis, right? I mean... Do you know who Genesis are? Oh, yeah.

I know what Genesis means. No, it's not Old Testament. It's none of that. It's a band from 1970s and 80s. It's a song called Turn It On Again, which I've been listening to, which I really like. It's very dad rock, to be honest with you. Schoolboy Q actually turned me on to it, to be honest with you. Really? Yeah, Turn It On Again, because I want to turn it on again for the last 10, 12, hopefully 15 games of the season. ♪

That's it for this edition of Handbrake Off. Thanks to James, thanks to Art, thanks to Robbie, our producer. And we'll see you after Chelsea.