Col. Douglas Macgregor on Technology vs Experience in War
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you know their soldiers are not throwaways they're living breathing human beings it takes time for them to grow up to be educated by their families they join the military they serve in it to become competent so if you're going to use that person within that formation then make damn sure it's for the right purpose for a good purpose i remember after we came out of vietnam everybody said no more vietnam

but then i look at all these things that we've been involved in over the last 20 years i would go back into the 90s where we intervened in bosnia herzegovina and then subsequently in kosovo did we really need to do those things was that really our affair was that a vital strategic interest that demanded you know the use of american military power and i'm not so sure the the other thing is there's a tendency to see war as a function of technology well technology is very important you know

We were talking, I guess, yesterday about the fact that the Battle of the Little Bighorn, the soldiers that Custer led had single-shot rifles. They'd have to pull back, cock, shoot, put in another bullet, pull back, cock, shoot. And the Indians had repeaters. And it made a difference. We had something similar that happened in 1866 between the Austrians and the Prussians.

so technology matters but technology in and of itself is not a cure-all it's not a substitute for human beings technology can augment improve extend human ability what was the technology factor in the battle that was the battle can you tell the battle 73 easting yeah what was the did technology make the decisive i think well the technology was was obviously very important but it was also the people that used it that's my point yeah

If you look at the tanks that we had, we did not have automatic loaders. The tanks that were being utilized by the Iraqis were T-72s with automatic loaders. Well, we could fire two or three rounds from one of our tanks in the time that the automatic loader took to expel the shell and put another one in.

So that makes a difference. We could fire on the move with great success because of the gyroscopic system in the sighting so that whatever your tank did, however it moved left, right, up and down, the gun would stay on the target that had been laced and given you the exact range and distance. And when you fired, it fired a projectile at one mile per second.

That's pretty fast. And it would go, the penetrator on top of the sabot round would go for 18 miles before it finally lost all its energy and stopped. So in many cases, we were shooting right through Soviet export tanks that the Iraqis were using.

And they did get some rounds off. In the case I just told you, they had one that struck. They didn't have much success with the tanks because they also had to move the guns with human power and we had an electric system that moved the gun instantly wherever the tank commander or the gunner wanted to point it. So in that sense, yes.

But you don't get to fire three rounds in nine or ten seconds out of an M1 tank through that smoothbore cannon unless the loader, first of all, is built like Mike Tyson in most cases. And secondly, it's very, very good at pulling something out, putting it in, and you've got somebody on the gun that quickly sights and a tank commander who immediately fires.

but that has to be drilled because everybody has to be in the loop because if you're in the wrong position inside that turret, the gun, as it comes back and recoils will kill you. The turret itself is this moving. If you move your hand or your arm or your leg and something, it'll cut it off. Yeah. So this, this demands a lot of training, a lot of self-confidence, a lot of physical fitness, and it demands intelligence and good eyesight, good physical fitness. All of those things are combined. And then it becomes, uh,

a routinized machine, a well-oiled machine that wherever you send it, it does what it's supposed to do and it does it brilliantly. That takes time. It takes time at sea. It takes time in the air. It doesn't matter where you go. So the forces that we field are good or should be good. And they certainly were at that time. But you don't want to use them in a cavalier manner or callously. Don't send people out

and then lose large numbers for what is ostensibly no damn good reason. When you're in that tank and you're in that battle, I'm trying to think of things in my life. I've been in a car accident before, your heart's racing, but then I also think about a paramedic coming to visit someone who's been in a car accident. Between the person experiencing a car accident versus the paramedics where his

where his pulse is, where are you? I mean, that's just a civilian range. I'm thinking of adrenaline there in terms of something's happening that's life-threatening. How does that, what's that translate, or is there any way to describe what that's like for you when you're in the battle? Is it more relaxed? Is it like you've been in a car, adrenaline fully surging? Well, I think there's lots of adrenaline surging, but I think, again, this goes back to my earlier comment, you can't,

you can't waste time worrying about whether or not you're going to be shot. So you're not, you're disassociating yourself. You have to. You're not, you're not really in touch with your personhood at that point. You're not, you're, you cannot. You become one with the machine, so to speak. As much as possible. But at the same time, you're not a fool. You never lose sight of the reality that you're vulnerable. And that that's, those are guardrails, mental guardrails. Well, if I do that, that's too risky. On the other hand, if I do this,

I'm not going to probably won't be killed, but you still never know. You've got to suppress all that stuff. And that's important. Just go with your intuition. It's not a question of intuition. I think it's all discipline is a form of habit, right? Yeah. Discipline is not because I told you to do it. You bang on their heads. Everybody looks at basic training parasites. Oh, well, they're disciplined. Now you beat them up. No, no.

Discipline is a form of habit. And if you listen to the drill instructors, what they're trying to impart to you is habit. You must always do these five things every time you pick up this weapon, every time you mount this vehicle. That's the point of routine. And your life depends upon the operation of that weapon system, the operation of that vehicle, the aircraft, that helicopter, doesn't make any difference.

All of that has to be ingrained over time again and again. The unit that trains the most has the fewest accidents. The unit that trains the least has accidents. The more you run something and become familiar with the equipment, and as you say, one with the equipment, the less likely you are to have these other problems that can cost you your life in battle. And it's a tough thing to do because how often are we thrown into that kind of battle?

That was an unambiguous situation. This wasn't, well, I'm going to get into this Humvee and drive along this road and hope to God that the mine doesn't blow up under me. You were getting, you were ready for it. Yeah. And that's terrible. And I told someone in a very highly placed before I left the army,

i said if you want to stop losing soldiers in these stupid humvees that you cannot up armor that will not survive these mines and eventually they built mines that destroyed m1 tanks i mean that's how powerful they became so the way you do it is that you tell you you send out an order that every general officer in the theater every two weeks will accompany a vehicular patrol without special security

Yeah. You go on the patrol. Just get in the game. Yeah. And all of a sudden, I think those patrols would have ended because they were stupid. You send somebody out to be seen. Mm-hmm.

Well, the British told us, "Don't do that. We found that the less they see you, the more they like you. The more they see you, the more they don't like you. So don't go out there and bother them." But we had everybody saying, "No, we have to patrol. We have to patrol." It's like a little microcosm of what we're doing on the global scale. Yes, yes, absolutely. Always looking for monsters. And then the other thing is, what is this patrol going to do while it's out there other than signal everybody that they're there? And why are we going down these same roads?

Forget it. And you know, as soon as you move to the gate, there's an Arab terrorist or just an Arab fighter over there with a cell phone that says, here they come. They're taking route. Bravo. See you. This is stupid. And that's there's something else here that we need to keep in mind. This is word occupation.

i remember listening to everybody saying oh we're going to be a huge success we're going to transform iraq into a liberal democracy the first arab liberal democracy that will be friendly to israel yeah well whatever you're taking continue to take it because that's never going to happen so you might as well stay happy quaaludes whatever you're taking was insane had no chance of happening

occupations turn soldiers into jailers and it turns the people that live there into prisoners.