Benicio del Toro On Living In Wes Anderson's World
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today, Benicio del Toro, has made a career out of playing complex, morally ambiguous characters. In Traffic, for example, he portrayed a Mexican police officer forced to decide whether to uphold justice or compromise his ethics in a corrupt system. In Sicario, he played a former prosecutor turned assassin.

Del Toro's latest collaboration is with director Wes Anderson in the new film The Phoenician Scheme. He stars as Zsa Zsa Korda, a charismatic but morally compromised tycoon of the 1950s who, after surviving an assassination attempt, tries to reconnect with his estranged daughter, a novice nun played by Mia Threpleton, in the hopes that she will one day take over his empire.

I've appointed you sole heir to my estate, which you may come into sooner rather than later. I'm provisionally manager of my affairs after the event of my actual demise on a trial basis. Why? Why what? Why sooner rather than later, since you survived again? And why am I sole heir to your estate? You have eight sons at last count. Nine sons. Nine sons. What about them? They're not my heirs. Why not? I have my reasons. Which are what? My reasons? I'm not saying. I'm saying I'm not saying.

This is the second Wes Anderson film for del Toro. In 2021, he starred as a volatile imprisoned artist in the French Dispatch. Del Toro's career spans decades. In 1995, in his breakout role, he played a small-time crook in The Usual Suspects. He went on to play the drug-fueled lawyer Dr. Gonzo alongside Johnny Depp in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

In 2000, he won an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor for his role as Javier Rodriguez in Traffic. And in 2005, he won Best Actor at Cannes for his role as Che Guevara in Che. Benicio Del Toro, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you, Tanya. Thank you for having me.

You know, I read that Wes Anderson wrote this character with you in mind. You are essentially in every shot. And I want to give the audience a taste of your character. As I mentioned, his name is Zsa Zsa Korda, and he's this powerful industrialist from the 1950s whose conscience is...

kind of awakened by his relationship with his estranged daughter. And in this scene I'm about to play, the two of them are on Corda's private plane alongside Michael Cera, the family tutor. Let's listen. We're starting our descent. Prepare your documents before we deplane so you never delay my schedule. Passports. That's yours. I don't have a passport. Normal people want the basic human rights that accompany citizenship in any sovereign nation. I don't.

My legal residence is a shack in Portugal. My official domicile is a hut on the Black Sea. My certificated abode is a lodge perched on the edge of a cliff overlooking the sub-Saharan rainforest, accessible only by goat path. I don't live anywhere. I'm not a citizen at all. I don't need my human rights. That was my guest today, Benicio del Toro, in the new Wes Anderson film, The Phoenician Scheme. And Benicio, that line, I'm a man who does not need his human rights. What a line.

It is a great line. How would you describe this man, this character that you inhabited? Ruthless businessman, a tycoon, a rascal who is looking for redemption, whether he knows it or not. He's a character under reconstruction in a way. So that's the beginning of the character and the character has an arc. And wherever he starts in the movie, he will end up in a completely different place because

And, you know, he's faced with mortality. He starts to look at his life in a different way. And because of the help of his daughter, like you said earlier, his daughter helps him put him on track and perhaps awaken his consciousness. You and Wes Anderson actually collaborated on this. And I was thinking about...

What it actually means to have a director write a role tailor-made for you. Like, is there something about the moral dilemmas your character is dealing with that Wes Anderson felt only you could draw out? You know, Wes is a great director, and we know him as a director, and we know his films. But really, he is maybe a better writer. And what I meant by that is, like, I think actors look for characters...

that are layered, and by that I mean may contradict themselves. They break the stereotype, let's put it that way, if they contradict themselves. And then, you know, when you get a character that has an arc, like Zsa Zsa in the Phoenician scheme has a hell of an arc, then as an actor, you're doing interpretations, right? So now you're almost in the cockpit of the character and of the story.

You're part of this, of what's happening, and you're looking at the arc and you're making sure that it's believable where the character is going to end up. So it's a real rich character to tackle. So much is said about Wes Anderson's aesthetic. I think the description you gave was it's like being in a pop-up book.

I mean, he works with an incredible art director, Adam Stockhausen. He's worked with Wes, I think, most of his films. And they collaborate amazingly. And these things come to life. And it's like you're in fantasy land, but you're in real fantasy land. What was it like for you as an actor being in sort of like a real pop-up book?

Because when you're performing, of course, they're all different types of sets. But, I mean, this is very, very different, almost maybe the complete opposite of maybe a big franchise film with CGI and visual effects. You're actually in it. Everything around you is real. Yeah. Yeah, Wes doesn't use CGI that much. I don't think so. I think very little, really. But the first thing you're trained to, if you do film, you train yourself is to...

erase the camera. It's not there. And when you find yourself in the moment and you're acting, the set will not get in the way. You know, the camera is not going to get in the way. What does happen in a Wes Anderson film is when you walk in, the set will embrace you to really feel that you are in this room, in this dining room, in this airplane. And the details are...

makes it really exciting. But when it comes to, when they say action, you just got to be in the moment. And usually being in the moment means you take everything around you for granted, you know? So it's a combination, you know? But the fact is that when you walk on the set, and there were many sets on this film, it was one, wow moment.

after another, every time you walked on a new set. Yeah, wow, because also there's real artwork. So, I mean, after you're done with the take, I mean, you could literally turn around and be right up on some very famous art pieces. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought I'd seen everything, but, you know, Wes got real artwork in several of these scenes. And, you know, I remember there was a Magritte there that actually belonged to me between action and cut.

So it was kind of nice. There was a Renoir as well. It's in the bedroom of my daughter's room, Liesel. That's played by Mia Threpleton. And there's a real Renoir there. And it was pretty amazing. The paintings came with security guards. You know, there were a couple people there watching the painting and making sure no one was touching them or, you know, the light were not too close to the painting, etc.,

Your wardrobe is from that time period, but it's also otherworldly. It's a man in his 1950s suits, but there's also something almost like E.T. about it. Milena Cananero is the wardrobe designer. She's won four Oscars. She worked with Stanley Kubrick. She is amazing.

incredible. I mean, everything is from the time even. And, you know, sometimes you build your character from the shoes up, from the bottom up. And it's like the shoes will just make you stand and walk in a particular way. And the shoes of Zsa Zsa were like, you know, good, strong, big shoes. Yeah.

Big shoes. Heavy shoes. How would you describe them? You can walk over crocodiles with these shoes. It's like that strong shoes, old school shoes. Everybody now, including myself, we walk on sneakers all the time. But this is like a time where everyone wore hard sole shoes. Her shoes were from the period.

And they were like, the minute I put them on, it was like, that was the, that was started. I started to like get into character with that, you know, it's not the only thing, but it's very important. I think the wardrobe for, for an actor. Yeah.

You mentioned Mia Threepelton, who plays your daughter. And really, your relationship is the core of this entire film and watching, as you mentioned, the evolution of you and kind of your redemption arc. You tell this story about her auditioning for the role, that there was something in her eyes that

It was something about her eyes that made you feel that your character needed those eyes, that look. Can you elaborate on that? Well, you know, yes. I think Wes had her in mind already because we only auditioned her. I was in London and we did a reading and then we started playing a little bit. And there was a moment there in between scenes. We were doing a scene and then...

Just when we finished, I kept my eyes on her eyes, and she kept her eyes on my eyes, and we kind of looked at each other, and no one blinked. And it was pretty amazing to see such a young actress, you know, just hold her instrument, you know, just everything, just there, and just kind of like she was just looking at me and didn't blink. And I remember telling Wes, like,

You know, I think that's what Zsa Zsa needs. He needs a strong support if he's going to become a better person. It was like she was just comfortable, almost like a soft hand would escort me into the right direction. If I was going to explain that look, I mean, she's got those big eyes and almost a compassionate, you know, strong but compassionate look.

I can imagine there's sort of an energy to being a part of an ensemble cast like the Phoenician Scheme and really any Wes Anderson film. You're on set with all of these people. That energy, can you describe it? It's part of the experience of doing a Wes Anderson film. He has an incredible cast in this film that really motivates you and inspires you. It's like working with Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston.

Riz Ahmed, young actor that is a great talent. Then you got Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston, which is like, you know, these are two actors that I've admired over the years. And, you know, and here I am, you know, just as a fan working with them. And they're like in it 100% as well. You know, they're like really getting behind it. And it's really fun to...

see the actor in them figuring out the part as well. And then you go to Mathieu and Marieke, also an actor that I've had the opportunity to work with before, so now it's like working with him again. Then it's Jeffrey Wright, who I worked with in Basquiat, and he was in the French Dispatch, but I didn't get a chance to work with him. I haven't worked with him in maybe decades.

almost 30 years. Is there also like a depth of intensity to be the main character in a film like this with a lot of dialogue? Because as part of an ensemble cast, so many of the people that are in it, they have roles that go in and out, but like you're there as a constant presence in every single frame almost. Yeah.

You know, just the names that I mentioned, they were completely aware of my situation. They were like, you know, well, good luck. And how are you holding up? And, you know, are you ready to kill someone? You know, but they were very giving and very helpful. Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston, they were like, we read this. This is crazy, you know.

just let us know if you need any help or whatever. It's like, you know, so, yeah. Was there ever a moment where anyone helped in whatever that meant? They all help in a different way, you know. They all help in a different way. I think that there was a moment there as we were shooting the movie, we're coming down maybe to the last lap, maybe the last week or maybe week and a half, and we were doing the sequence with Cousin Hilda and Scarlett Johansson came in. And I think at that point,

We were all tired and, you know, we just needed that lift up. And Scarlett came in and she just made everyone laugh. She was questioning the script in a real honest way and making Wes laugh, making every department like. And she just lifted that whole set up.

not only was she prepared and doing her thing, but she also made everyone kind of loosen up and remember that when you work a movie, you have to have fun, even if it's a dark subject.

You still have to have fun. It's like you hear it in sports a lot, you know, like, don't forget to have fun. Well, acting is, doing movies is similar, too. You got to have some fun. And she came in and just, boom, lifted that thing up. And it was like, that's exactly what we needed so we could finish strong, you know. And, you know, I had to tell her. It's like, you know, what you did was magical. So, yeah.

You get that, and then you get something different. It's another story that is like we're doing the dream sequences. You know, in this movie, in the Phoenician scheme, we got different what they call Zsa Zsa's conscience or daydreams or heaven scenes. And in one of those scenes, Bill Murray plays God. Right, yes. So now here's Bill Murray. I thought I've seen everything.

Tanya, in movies, you know, like I've seen an actor show up with their own script. I've seen an actor show up with their own wardrobe, own hair. But I've never seen an actor show up with their own soundtrack. And Bill Murray did this. He shows up with a boombox. I mean, it was a Bluetooth, one of those new things, Bluetooth boombox cranking. I think it was Eric Clapton. And you could hear it from a mile away. And he walks on the set.

And everybody starts to groove, everyone, all the departments that are there working, the actors, the craft service, the sound guys. Everybody's moving to this Eric Clapton song. And then suddenly Wes screams from the far side of the set. He screams. He goes, Bill, Bill.

classical music only, classical music only. And Bill just quickly, you know, it went from Clapton to Bartok in just two seconds. And he never broke stride. He just sat there listening to classical music. And it was like, that was so relaxing. It was so fun. It was so like, it just, just a great piece of music.

It wasn't distraction. It was more than that. It was something else. It was just kind of like losing you up. Well, two things I'm thinking with that story. Okay, first of all, do you think Bill did that on purpose just to mess with Wes? Because who brings a boombox on set? And if you guys have been playing classical music. No, well, Bill has worked with Wes for a long time. And the way Wes reacted to Bill was not like,

Someone who's done it for the first time, you know. And Bill Murray is Bill Murray. There's only one Bill Murray. So, yeah, I just think that it was kind of like organized chaos in a way. And why do you think Wes wanted classical music only on the set? Well, if you watch the film, the film has mostly classical music. There's a section that there is jazz music on.

But for the most part, Wes has always got incredible soundtracks in his films where he plays all kinds of music. But in this movie, he's just staying with classical music. And I think that it doesn't have a language except the music language.

Our guest today is award-winning actor Benicio Del Toro. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. This message comes from Capella University.

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Wherever your business is growing, Square meets you there. Go to square.com slash go slash NPR to learn more. I want to go back, way back to some of those early days when you were an aspiring actor, moving into some of your early roles. So I know earlier in your career, you were a singer.

You studied with Stella Adler, who she is famously known for teaching Marlon Brando and James Dean what became known as method acting. And I know there's so much there, Benicio, but what do you remember the most about that experience of being in her class and learning from her? It changed my life, studying with her at her studio. I studied under several directors.

teachers, one whose name was Arthur Mendoza in Los Angeles, and she would come on the, for summer and winter and teach. And I remember, you know, taking those classes and it was legendary. But I think one of the things that she was really particular was the fact that the actor needs to understand what the writer is trying to say.

So you need to improve your reading comprehension. Also, the other thing that was exciting about the class was the fact that it was a serious job. An actor is as important as a doctor. Had you gone into the class believing that?

Well, I never really thought about it, really, to be honest with you. I don't come from a family of theater. I did watch movies when I was younger, like anybody else, but I never thought about what was behind it. And acting was looked at as not really a profession, not something that you would consider a real profession.

In my world, as I was growing up, you know, profession would be being an architect, being a lawyer, being a doctor, being a dentist. Right, because your family were professional people, right, in Puerto Rico, where you were born and raised. Yes, yes. Many of my family members were lawyers. And my godmother, who, I lost my mom when I was nine. She was the one who stepped in and, you know, kind of like...

helped a lot, you know, and she was a lawyer as well. So, yeah, but acting was like a hobby. You know, you don't turn that into a profession. So when going into Stella for me was like, it is as important as any other profession that we consider important. There was a respect for the craft. It made it exciting for me. It made me feel proud.

She also told you something like, go to the lines last. So don't go to the lines before you understand who the character is. I just thought that was interesting, too. Yeah. She told every actor, don't go to the lines right away. Because it's crucial that you need to understand why that character, that person, wants. You need to understand where that character is coming from, where it's going. And so...

the first way to understand it is just put yourself in that person's shoe. And then from then on, you can then build and create a character that maybe eventually doesn't resemble you. But you need to understand what is it that you want in that moment. And if you go to the words first,

I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way. I mean, there might be actors who go to the words first and it might work. But her logic was that if you go to the words first and you're concentrating just on the words and you're not going into the psychological aspect of who that person is.

You mentioned your mom passing when you were nine. And I've actually think I've heard you say that really from a very young age, you were thinking about mortality because at that young age, you guys knew that she was dying. It's a powerful lesson for a young child to be faced with and to know and have to learn and understand.

I don't know if you ever really understand it, really. You know, I mean, it just marks you forever. It's just part of who you are. I don't know if you really get over it. I had an interesting meeting with a Japanese filmmaker. His name is Kaneto Shindo. And he was, I met him, he was about 97 years old. And in our conversation, he lost his mom when he was nine, just like me.

And when he was 72, he made a movie about his mother. And I asked him that after making that movie, did anything change regarding that loss? And he said nothing. And, you know, basically what I'm saying is like, you never get over it. You know, it's just what it is. It's just what it is.

Was it your brother who kind of planted that seed in you that maybe you could be an actor? He did mention something like that. And, you know, I don't know why. He saw the ham in me. I don't know, I guess. Yeah, he did mention it at some point. But it was really strange because it was like, where did that come from? And, you know, I never did any acting before.

How I fell into acting was like this. I went to San Diego, University of California, San Diego, my freshman year. And you could make your own schedule.

And I decided, wow, I can make it really easy for me. You know, I could just hang around and ride a bike around and just hang about, you know. And there was an acting class. I think it was called Acting 101, just like that. And I said, how can I fail that? And if there's homework, it's going to be watching movies, which I already do. So it looked pretty easy to me. So I went in.

And the teacher said that everyone here is 18 years old or 19, and that's the right age to study acting because you have a little bit of an understanding already about life. And so this is the right age to study it. And that clicked. That was kind of like, I still remember it.

And the feeling was like, there's a logic to this. There's a science to this. And also the fact like, am I on time? I thought if you were an actor, you had to be born into acting. And just like a musician, you need to start playing when you're like...

Eight or nine, you know, you need to start, you need to come from a family of musicians, you know, or you need to come from a family of theater people and actors. And it was kind of strange that it was like, hey, this is the right time to start. And I took the class and then I started realizing that there was a logic to it. You can study it and you can get better. Right.

You mentioned your godmother, Sarah Torres Peralta. She was also your mom's really good friend. She's the big reason that you came from Puerto Rico here to the States to go to private boarding school in Pennsylvania. Yes. How different was Pennsylvania from your life in Puerto Rico? I went into a controlled environment to an extent. I went to a private school, a boarding school. And...

What I do remember is suddenly I was alone, but the person to my left or to my right were alone too. So there was like this beginning that was very healthy for new thoughts. There were no cliques. I made friends with the basketball players because I played basketball, but for the most part,

Everybody was on equal footing. And also, you would find yourself alone, which is also healthy. I think in Puerto Rico, I had my posse, my friends, and I was never alone, you know. And here in Pennsylvania, for the first time, it was like, and you start looking in and you start having different thoughts and new ideas might come in. And it was healthy that way.

And I quickly made friends and, you know, I made a lot of friends and played basketball and made a lot of friends there. I had, you know, I spoke English before I went to the school, but I had a thick accent. But playing basketball created a language right there. And I think music also.

My guest is Benicio del Toro. He's the star in Wes Anderson's new movie, The Phoenician Scheme. Del Toro's films include The Usual Suspects, Basquiat, 21 Grams, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and Star Wars, The Last Jedi. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.

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You had this relatively small role, and it was at the beginning of the film. You played Fred Fenster. He was this small-time crook and con man, rounded up like with a bunch of other guys. And you made this choice. It wasn't called for in the script to give this character a mumbling accent. And I want us to take a listen of this because in this scene, you've just gone through this lineup with several other guys, and you're now in a holding cell, and your character is complaining. Let's listen.

So I did it at a time. Does that mean I get railed every time a truck finds me? Finster, will you relax? These guys don't have any probable cause. You know, right? No PC, no God. You do something, I never let you go. You know, they treat me like a criminal. I ain't got a criminal. You are a criminal. And what you got to go and do that? Trying to make a point. That was my guest today, Benicio Del Toro, in the 1995 film, The Usual Suspects.

Benicio, you chose this accent to make him memorable because he was actually one of the first to die, I think. It's what a bold choice for a young actor. You know, it was a decision made between the director and myself because it's correct. I died on page 37 out of like 98 pages. So I did propose to Bryan Singer and the writer Chris McQuarrie if I could just...

create something out of it. And they trusted me. That was the win there, when they trusted me, because now I just had to deliver. Where did you get the accent from? I got it from many different influences. Joe Frazier, the boxer. Thelonious monk. Yeah, yeah. And I would play with it, you know. The fact is that

The movie became a huge success. And you're only as good as your movie, in a way, you know? I think that the fact is that that movie helped my career quite a bit, and the part. But the fact is that there was a great ensemble in that film, and the movie was a huge success. At the box office, it was very independent. We shot it in 21 days, or 20 days, basically.

And it was, you know, it's a sign of like, you're only as good as your movie. I mean, I think if that movie would have not been a success the way it was, we might not be talking about that, my character in it. You have the ability to kind of transform and be ambiguous ethnically. And it seems to work in your favor, but has it always worked in your favor? You know, it's interesting because...

The first time I ever acted in Spanish was in traffic. I mean, I did say lines in Spanish in Basquiat. And I might have said something in Spanish in a James Bond movie I did called License to Kill when I was 20. But for the most part, you know, the whole ethnic thing was not out until I did traffic. And suddenly the ethnic thing...

The Hispanic helped me create a character and help my career and change my career, really. And it was traffic. So it's funny because, you know, when I was going out for movies early on, I would be asked to change my name because I would be limited.

It was an issue that you would be limited to play Latino roles, right? Yes. And so you went against it because you'd be limited to stereotypes. And at some point I said, bring it on, because I do believe everyone is different. And I will play every Latino different if I have to play Latino for the rest of my life.

In a way, like I just had a breakthrough in what you were saying here about this, because one of the things Hollywood has been kind of known for is flattening identities or culture. I mean, my approach was it's always been like, hey, you know, you play the character. I think now it's changed a little bit. You know, your heritage is embraced now.

And more so now, I think there's more opportunity. We're not out of the bag for, let's say, for Latino actors and actresses to get roles that mean something, that are, you know, three-dimensional and not stereotypes. But there's more opportunity now than when I started. That's for sure. And I think that, you know, it's a good thing.

Still, there should be more. And it's a complicated thing because it's not up to the actors. It's really, it's got to start with the writing. The writing and then the idea that it will attract eyeballs and ears to come and watch these stories. So, yeah.

It's interesting, and it's better now than ever, and there's a lot of Latino actors working out there, and probably more than there were when I first started. Tons more, yeah. Benicio del Toro, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for having me. Actor Benicio del Toro. He stars in the new movie, The Phoenician Scheme.

Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews the romantic drama Materialists. This is Fresh Air.

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In the new romantic drama Materialists, Dakota Johnson plays a savvy New York City matchmaker who finds herself caught between two men, played by Chris Evans and Pedro Pascal. It's the latest movie written and directed by Celine Song, whose 2023 drama Past Lives received three Oscar nominations. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

The Korean-Canadian writer-director, Celine Song, made her feature debut two years ago with Past Lives, a quietly captivating drama, loosely inspired by Song's relationship with her husband, an American, and her brief reunion with a childhood sweetheart from Korea. It was the gentlest of love triangles, as well as a sneakily philosophical movie about cross-cultural connections and fateful encounters.

and so I had high expectations for Song's new film, Materialists. Like Past Lives, it's a thoughtful tale of romantic indecision, but in a glossier key, with a star-studded cast. Dakota Johnson plays Lucy, a professional matchmaker for a company called Adore. She arranges dates for New Yorkers who are tired of Hinge or Bumble,

and willing to pay thousands of dollars or more to meet their potential soulmates. Lucy is very good at her job, and it's given her a coolly pragmatic view of happily ever after. For her, people are basically human spreadsheets, little more than the sum of their physical and financial attributes. At a wedding reception, she meets a handsome bachelor, Harry. That's Pedro Pascal, who's clearly interested in her.

But Lucy just wants to bring him aboard as a client. Love is easy. Is it? I find it to be the most difficult thing in the world. That's because we can't help it. It just walks into our lives sometimes. Are you kidding on me? Definitely not. But I do think that you would be a great match for a lot of our clients. We need more straight men in New York City. You look about six feet tall. How much money do you make? Just straight up like that. I make 80 grand a year before taxes.

Do you make more or less than that? More. I know. Finance, right? Private equity. Johnson and Pascal have good chemistry, and the best scenes in Materialists belong to them. There's a nice tension between Harry's suave charm and Lucy's professional reserve. Johnson finds the nuance in Lucy's inner conflict.

She wants to marry rich herself, but she's held back by her belief that only rich should marry rich. And Harry isn't just rich. He is, in matchmaker parlance, a unicorn. The complete package in terms of looks, smarts, and wealth. But Harry says he's interested in what he calls Lucy's intangible assets—

and she eventually relents, letting him take her out to fabulous restaurants and then back to his $12 million Tribeca penthouse. Not since Fifty Shades of Grey has a Dakota Johnson character been so thoroughly swept off her feet. Around the same time, though, Lucy reconnects with her ex-boyfriend John, played by Chris Evans.

They broke up a while ago for money reasons. And John, a cater waiter and aspiring actor, isn't much better off now than he was then. They still have feelings for each other, but for Lucy, the math doesn't add up. Considerations of love versus money have of course been a staple of romantic fiction going back to at least the days of Jane Austen. And song means to put her own distinct riff on it here.

The skill that she brought to past lives is very much in evidence, from the hard-on-sleeve candor of the dialogue to the elegance of Shabir Kirchner's cinematography, which often basks in the visual splendor of a bright New York afternoon. I've rarely seen Central Park or a Sabrette hot dog cart photographed so lovingly, all of which makes me wish that I ultimately liked materialists more. But after an absorbing first hour,

the movie feels increasingly undone by its own ambitions. It can't reconcile the screwball vigor of a comedy with the emotional oomph of a drama. It's worth noting that, although Materialists isn't autobiographical, Song did once work as a matchmaker, and she seems keen to expose some of the less savory realities of the profession, including the blatant racism and sexism of some of Lucy's clients.

One subplot addresses sexual violence in the world of modern dating, and although you can admire Song for not shying away from the subject, the ensuing drama leaves Lucy's romantic dilemma feeling trivial by comparison. I never really bought that dilemma to begin with. Although Evans is an appealing performer, John isn't much of a character. He loves Lucy, he's a starving artist, and that's about it.

It's hard to imagine that someone as cool-headed and unsentimental as Lucy would seriously entertain getting back together with this guy, who shares a crummy apartment with two slovenly roommates straight out of a Judd Apatow romp. In order to make Lucy's situation halfway plausible, Materialists winds up dumbing her down and selling Johnson's smart, tough-minded performance short in trying to teach Lucy about how relationships are more than math.

It's the movie that doesn't add up. Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed Materialists, starring Dakota Johnson.

Thank you.

Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.

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