Relationship Titles & Societal Expectations Ft. Joli Hamilton
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we've had a lot of conversations about like marriage and what that looks like. And it's funny. We like jokingly argue about these things. Like he wants to call me his partner and I hate it. I hate that. I'm like, I don't want to be a, I mean, I feel like we are partners, but I'm like, it just doesn't have the same ring to it as like Beyonce and wife. Like, you know what I mean? And I totally know what you mean.

Because that meaning is actually conveyed by your society. Girl, stop talking. All the shit that people are thinking but not saying. I'm not even like drunk. I've just been like drinking.

Does my podcast offend you? Men, if you're listening, I apologize in advance. Women, hey bitches, are you ready? Are you still talking? Girl, stop talking.

All right. Happy fucking Monday, bitches. We're back with another episode of Girl Stop Talking. Today's guest is Jolie Hamilton. Hi, Jolie. How are you? Hi. I'm good. I mean, it's a Monday, so how good can we be? But I'm good in the realm of Monday. That is exactly why I do the show on Mondays, because I hope that I could just bring some sort of funny, comedic conversation to our

you know, potentially Monday, Monday, Monday, yes, Mondays. Well, I'm so glad to have you on today. I'm excited for our topic. I would love to kind of pass over the baton to you and just kind of tell my listeners like, who are you? What do you do? What do you love to talk about? Like, give us the give us the details.

Yeah. So, you know, I'm Jolie Hamilton. I am a research psychologist, first and foremost. I studied Jungian and archetypal psychology, which sounds really dry. But my specialty, my research specialty is jealousy. And the work that I do, the work I do in the world is helping people who are transitioning from monogamy and like the monogamous paradigm of relationships to non-monogamy, polyamory, whatever they want. And I think that's a really good thing.

So it's really fun. It's a really fun job. No, seriously. I think that's so interesting. And I'm glad you're coming on the show today because it is something that I have wanted to talk more about. So I think that's great that you do like the research side of it. Like you are like fully in, like, you're going to have the facts, you're going to give us the tea. So I'm excited about that. How did you get into this? Like, where did this come from in your like life journey?

Yeah. So I did, I jumped out of the monogamous world into the polyamorous world when I fell in love with someone outside of my marriage and it turned out that they were in an open relationship and I was like,

Well, let's find out what the hell that's about. Like so many people, once I found out that there was not actually just two options. It wasn't just single or married. It was actually choose your own adventure. But you've got to know...

about that. Like I didn't have language for it. So, you know, then I jumped into the waters and I did everything wrong. It was a disaster. I didn't know what I was getting into. So I made a lot of mistakes. And my way of getting out of that was to go back to school. I went back to school. I got a bachelor's in psychology. I got a master's in psychology. I got a doctorate in psychology. Then I went back and got another master's and along the way became a certified sexuality educator. I had been doing sexuality education as a doula in childbirth education.

But this took it in another direction because a lot of overlap happens in the realm of sexual liberation, understanding what we want out of our kink lives, and opening up. So for me, it was about learning my way out. And once I did, I was like, ooh.

I need to help other people because there are a thousand ways to fuck this up. And it's not easy because we don't have models. We're swimming against the mainstream. So we don't even know what we don't know. And that's the hardest time in the journey. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's like what I've heard from this, what I was going to say industry, but I don't really think it's an industry. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what I've heard the most in my experience is people want to open their relationships or people talk about like threesomes and like adding someone else in, but from not personal, because I'm not in that side of things, but like from what I've heard, like in the space or like people that I have engaged with in conversation, it's like, you see it being done. And in my perspective, it's not being done properly. It's I,

I actually have an example of a story that I shared the story on my show. My boyfriend and I go to the lake a whole bunch and out there, there is a community of people like in the lifestyle, I guess is the way to say. They're like swinging, they're hooking up, they're having threesomes or they're having clubs, they're swapping. Yes. Exactly. They have like the...

upside down pineapples, like the vibes are there, you know who they are type of thing. And we were just like friendly people. And so we had made friends with a bunch of people.

Two of them were people that were in the lifestyle. So they say, and they'd been together for, I don't know, maybe a year or so. I'm not totally positive. Well, there was a situation that happened where the girl had gotten really, really drunk. And the guy was like, it almost felt like a couple of days prior, they were trying to like vet us and they were like getting close and asking us questions. And I'd made it clear that like, we're not,

like we're open-minded people but it's not us you know and then it was so interesting it got to the point where like the one girl got really drunk and then her man came up to me and was like you can take her and I'm like what are you oh I'm like I don't want to take her I'm like she's your girl like take her ass home you know

There's so many things. The red flags are, it's a carnival cruise ship of red flags. Lovely. Yeah. Yeah. And it had progressed. I did share the story on one of my episodes. It's called Lake Tales. I didn't fuck your girl because it did actually like we were staying at the lake and it came down to like, we ended up leaving and he thought that we were hiding her in our RV and that we were like fucking her. And when he came banging on our door, my man like opens the door, like hard dick, like oiled

up lighting mood set. We were like in the middle of our sesh and he literally like stormed in because he thought we were hiding her in the bathroom. And so that's been like my personal experience where it's like, they say they're open and in the lifestyle, but I'm like,

you this is not a healthy relationship like and I think like you were saying you you tried and you did everything wrong and I think that's just like one story of like how things could go wrong like people want to be in this open lifestyle but then there's like you're saying there's jealousy there's lack of communication or maybe someone's even doing it because their partner wants to do it but they necessarily don't want to do it right and

Yeah. So I would love to talk a little more about that. Like,

When do you, do you see couples? Like, do you practice? You said you're a sex coach. So what I do, I do work with people privately. And for years, most of my work was working with either couples or small relationship groups. So triads, quads who were, they had opened up and stuff was on the rocks a little bit. But now I primarily focus on working with people in a group program because one of the things we need when we're trying to figure out how to do this well is we need to see

the various ways that people are doing this. We need examples and we need to see that we're not actually alone, but it can feel really lonely. It's weird. There's a paradox. Hey, let's open up. And now we find out, oh,

We're not necessarily doing this the way other people are, or maybe we don't know anybody in real life who's doing this, or the only people we know in real life are also the people we would like to be playing with. So we, they're not the people to like work out the problem side. Like they're not the people to have the deep conversations about like, wow, this isn't easy for me. Or Hey, what, how do you make your agreements? So I create small group containers where people can learn the ropes and

And repair, because most people who've already opened have a bunch of repair work to do. Stuff goes wrong and we got to figure out what to do about it. Whether that's with the, maybe you're still with that person. Lucky you. You got to repair with that person. Or if you're on your own and you're like, well, I've tried being open before, but the way that I do it keeps winding me up in hot water. I keep finding myself either breaking up with people, struggling with jealousy to a point that doesn't even work for me, or...

maybe I do really well, but I still don't feel satisfied. And I don't know what's wrong. Like, I don't know what's going on. Why is this not working for me? And that could be about not understanding that there are a lot of ways to be open. Like the lifestyle is just one of many, many ways to be in an open relationship. And a lot of people do better once they figure out what the right way is for them.

Yeah, that's so interesting. I love that it's not just like a black or white thing. Like you're saying that it is like a scale and you could be interested in doing one thing and not interested in doing another. So can we like dive in a little deeper on that? Like what are like some of the expectations that people seem to have that you've noticed in open relationships that just don't end up working out for them? Yeah, well, one of the biggest things that I like to think about is,

One of us, if we're in a currently active couple, like let's say we're coupled up and we think of ourselves as in an established relationship, somebody is usually the initiating person and somebody is usually the more reluctant person.

And that, that's normal. That does not mean you, that you can't find a way forward, right? Reluctance doesn't necessarily mean that you are totally closed. Although if you are, be clear with that. And that means this relationship isn't a fit. Like, don't like, don't give up on it immediately, but. Right.

It's really tricky to figure out what to do with this reluctance versus initiating energy. And one of the things that goes wrong is people who are initiating want to move at one pace. People who are reluctant want to move at another. And they wind up holding each other hostage or pressuring. Like there's either coercion going on or like a total shutdown. So we need to figure out how we can appropriately pace this experience. Because on the one hand, rushing into things, I mean, don't worry.

don't do what I did. It was a disaster. On the other hand, if we just say like, well, I'm not ready now, but you can ask me again in six months. You can ask me again in a year. You can ask me again in a year. I've seen people stuck like that for six, seven, eight, 30, 35 years. And that's...

That can leave the person who was curious, wanted to initiate this feeling like they are subjugating themselves to the relationship. Not getting what they need. Exactly. So there's not a right or wrong here, but there is a lot of work to do about how do we figure out a pacing that will be appropriate for both person's nervous system and actually allow you to move forward. So we do a lot of work around getting clear on what exactly your needs are, what you can consent to. Yeah.

And if you can't consent to being in this exploration,

let it be like, let yourself decide that this relationship may have come to a close. That's, that is one of the hardest pieces of the puzzle. Yeah. I could imagine. I mean, I'm trying to just put myself in like the imagination of someone's shoes, like in a relationship like that. And I could imagine it's like, especially if you're the one that doesn't want to go down that route, like you're like, wow, I love this person. I didn't think they were like,

Like we were going to get to this space and now they're saying they want this, but I don't want this. And so it's like, now you're almost sitting there having to make a decision for yourself and your own boundaries of being like, does, is this going to serve me? Am I going to be okay with this? Right.

And the one thing, oh, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say like, this is the, the, the trouble with our partnerships is we often imagine that longevity, like keeping a partnership together is the most important thing. And there's a lot of scarcity. We get scared that we'll lose someone we care about, but that we have to ask ourselves the question, am I loving the person I'm actually relating to? Am I actually seeing them or am I trying to love a version of them that existed in the past?

Yeah. If that's the case, like, yes, huge, gigantic ouches. I mean, I lost a marriage over this. Yeah. And...

I wasn't like if I had pressured my partner into into sticking around and doing this with me. Well, 15 years later, he is happily remarried with someone who is super monogamous. I am very happy for him. I am a very happy polyamorous person remarried to someone who is polyamorous, right? Like we're both in more appropriate relationships for who we are now.

And that lets me love him as he is like, and not try to change him. It's a hard thing to do though. Yeah, no, I mean, I can imagine. And I think one of the things that comes to my mind of like being in a relationship and maybe having someone wanting to explore more things is almost like, like you said, like understanding kind of like the yeses and the immediate no's, but then

maybe even like, do you ever like tell people or have their coach them to like role play some of these scenarios, like in the bedroom to see if they're like comfortable with it? Cause that's like the first thought that I have, like that would be a way to kind of discuss what it would be like. And like, if you're turned on by it without having to like completely open the doors just yet. Yeah. So I would never recommend that someone

start their open experience by getting on a dating app or going directly to a sex club or hooking up with your best friends. Like none of those. The absolute first thing I would ask you is one, can you comfortably talk with your current partner about sex, about all the stuff to do with sex? Like, and if you can't awesome, then we know we need to start there. And second is, can you invite in the imaginal third? Yeah.

The imaginal third is, I mean, that is a juicy and yummy space, right? It is. It's where you're inviting this fantasy into the bedroom. You're inviting it in, in multiple forms, ideally, right? Because some people are like, oh yeah, I'm totally into the lifestyle. I want that. Oh yeah. As long as it's just two girls.

But as soon as there's another dick in the room, all of a sudden panic's going up red flags. Ooh, ooh, that's problematic because one penis's policies are inherently problematic. So inviting in the imaginal third lets us identify things that are either total like stop. No, this is not actually for us.

Or invite us into the question of like, wow, okay, I didn't know that I was feeling really competitive about other men. Or I didn't know that in fact, I feel really humiliated when I even imagine a threesome. I didn't know that. Like it sounds good on paper. It sounds good when we're just like goofing around and talking about it. But then I let myself really sink into it and it did not feel good. I had all kinds of stuff come up.

So it's a great way to process. However, it's also not going to be like a one-to-one, like just sometimes we really enjoy things being in the imaginal realm and we don't want to embody them. So your version of exploring openness might primarily exist in fantasy.

Maybe that's perfect for you. Maybe that's all you need. Or maybe you start doing things that push just at the edge, but don't require physical embodiment. Like maybe you go to strip clubs together. Maybe you start watching porn together and you hadn't before. Or maybe you start actually telling each other stories that have other people in them. And that becomes, but then you draw a line about, yep, but I'm not open to. And you make a clear fidelity agreement with your partner. Mm-hmm.

Most people's monogamy does not actually have a clear fidelity agreement. Most people's monogamy is like, oh, I mean, don't do all the bad stuff. Right. It's not clear. Gotcha. And you're so right. It's like everybody's version of like cheating is different. Yeah. And like.

I like that you say the fidelity agreement. Can you talk about that a little more? Like how do you, how would you discuss like what's right and what's wrong with your partner? Or how do you like kind of bring up the conversation of laying out some of these terms? You guys are both on the same page. Oh, it's, this is so important. And so some people start laying this groundwork right at the beginning of their relationships. They start establishing norms around what is cheating. What am I expecting out of fidelity? But that is just a tiny fraction of people. Most people don't,

Instead, they carry with them a set of expectations from their childhood, from the things that were modeled, the things they see their friends do, the things we see on movies. And they have these expectations and they want their partner to just know them. In fact, it is such a deeply subliminal set of expectations that we often feel like if we have to talk to our partner about it, then maybe we're not loved. We're not loved.

Maybe there's something inherently broken. So the very first thing to do is to pop that bubble, like burst the bubble in you that says talking about this thing is somehow problematic. And increase your vocabulary around making agreements. Like how do you define cheating? What exactly is cheating? And if your partner is not up for a conversation about what cheating is,

They are not a safe partner for you to be monogamous with. People talk about the risks of non-monogamy all the time. I'm like, how about the risks of monogamy when we aren't allowed to talk about things? That's just as scary because if I have, oh my gosh, if I had a nickel for every time I talked to somebody who said, I think I may have cheated, but I'm not sure because we don't have any agreements.

So I'm just going to not mention it. I'm just going to not mention it and we'll just move on. Like you got to get clear on that. And that's where you can get more intimate too. You can also build trust. You can build intimacy around like, hey, like is flirtation.

cheating and what exactly is flirtation like is is liking a girl's picture on instagram cheating yes yes and so many i mean my in my jealousy work i see that all the time like wow yeah we can get jealous about almost anything including yeah a single little instagram heart like

Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that we're talking about this and bringing it up because I do think there is this huge gap in the communication part of relationships, whether you're monogamous or polyamorous, that it's not like you said, it's not talked about. It's like we have these expectations, which I'm a firm believer that like expectations kill most relationships. And that's

that's something that I've learned a lot in my friendships, I think specifically, like having these imaginary expectations over friends, because you would treat this is the way you would treat someone. But again, like you said, nobody is a mind reader. Like if you're not having these conversations, how does the person even know? So I like that. I

like that you can kind of use that to open the communication even around sex. Like, why don't you start from the basics? What is, you know, what does cheating look like to you? I think that's like really, really helpful for sure. I mean, we need to even have the conversation. I say this all the time, the thing that you can do to make sure you're, you're both building the sex life that you mean to be building and also built, starting to build a fidelity agreement is

What is sex exactly? We all define it differently. I am a professional sex educator and I train other sex educators.

We don't agree on what sex is. There is no objective definition. So we got to get into it. Like, what is it? How do I know when sex has started? How do I know when someone is moving in the direction of sex? You know, like one person may feel like having their, you know, having their neck and shoulders massaged is like, are you kidding me? That's the most normal, friendly thing I could do with someone. Somebody else is like, are you kidding me? That is definitely on the road to sex.

That is definitely cheating. And a lot of times when I ask people, like, how do you, it's not just what is sex, but how do you know when you've started having sex?

You know, they want to revert to some kind of simple definition. They'll say like, you know, obviously, you know, P and V sex is when sex is started. I'm like, okay, cool. So fingering's fine. You're like, just casual day. Could be at the coffee shop. No big deal. Yeah. And you're just like, just a little fingering this Monday. Everybody intuitively is like, no, of course that's not what I meant. So we have to allow ourselves to be in beginner's mind with every new partner.

And that's the same whether we're in monogamous or non-monogamous relationships. We have to enter into this state of, wow, in those first few weeks, we're starting to establish norms. And the norms are coming from our historical data. That person doesn't have our historical data. They don't know what our expectations are. And I find most people just don't want to start the conversation. Right.

And they're frightened. So they put it off. And now all of a sudden we find ourselves at maybe like somewhere between six weeks and six months. And right around there, I hear, and it is often a woman saying like, I don't know, like, it seems like we're not on the same page. But now I don't know what to say. Now I don't know what conversation to have. Because he seems to just think that we have...

We're just like meeting up. We're having fun. This is what it is. We're dating. Maybe we're having sex, but she's obviously that comes from like a wanting more or even just like wanting more knowledge because it hasn't been discussed. So what are like a couple of...

like fun ways that if people are like dating or single and like trying to move to have better sexual communication, like how do you make it where it's not so serious? Like, let's say you're on like third, fourth date, you're just still getting to know someone, but you're interested in them. Like what are some like easy, fun ways to kind of bring it up without having to get like, you know, so like locked down serious. Like, do you get what I'm saying? Totally. So, I mean, I like,

I like, I like to play with words. I like to use, because language informs so much of how we connect with people. And oftentimes people say like, oh, it's all about communication. Like relationships are all about communication. Like, yeah. So what does that mean? It means we actually need to be able to say words to each other. So I'll play a game like, where I'll ask a partner, like, so tell me what words you like. Give me, tell me 10 sexual words that feel juicy, feel good, feel fun to you. And,

And I'll tell you 10 that feel good to me, or we can alternate. I'll tell you one, you give me one, I'll give you one, right? We go back and forth and we start making a little, like a little group of words that feel good. And then if you're like, okay, that was actually fun. Don't forget to also say like, is there a word that just like, no, please don't use that word with me. I'm just like, it's just a turnoff for me. Like that kind of game. I mean, that can be like, that's five minutes, right? It's five minutes over a drink, but

It's it's really it's also opening up to the idea that these conversations that can feel like these structured, formal conversations, we can start having them in playful ways, just the same way I can have a playful conversation about what I'm looking for out of a relationship.

Or I can wait until I think we already have one and then be like, oh my God, now I have to do like the homework. I have to like, do we have to go to a therapist to have this conversation? I don't know. Right? Like, how do I do it? So start playing early. Start playing really, really early. And if that turns somebody off, again, dating is just data collection. So if they're not willing to share information,

in a little friendly talk about sexual words, don't have sex with them. Don't have sex with them. Don't do it. No, I think that's so great. I like that you kind of turned it into a game. And I do feel like you can even kind of start at like a more like low key. Like you could, like you said, it could be like, oh, massage. Like it doesn't have to be like finger fucking. You know what I mean? Like you can kind of.

like start slow, like sensual massage, or you could do like candles, like, or, you know, say it as like, I'm going to say a word and you tell me that like something that relates to it and kind of slowly add it and become like a little more frisky down the line. I like that. I think that's fun. And you know, it's, it's so funny. So depending on what people are meeting up for, um, depends on the intensity level, but also depending on where we met, right? Like,

If you're meeting people on Tinder, there's a different set of baggage and expectations. Tinder and Fields tend to come with one set of expectations. Set Life comes with another set of expectations. But if I'm meeting on Match, if I'm meeting on freaking old school eHarmony, like these are...

That would be a completely different world. Christian Mingle. You're like, probably not going to go straight to the finger fucking. Maybe not going to mention the same things. Probably not. Right. But then people who meet up like on lifestyle, like lifestyle sites, which...

Can also can actually go the other direction. They can go so far the other direction that like their third message, they're already right to finger fucking. They're like, they're all the way there. They're like, well, let's just talk about everything. And that can be okay. Not everybody is exploring their, their, their open sides because of sex. There are lots of reasons. Some people want deeper emotional connections. Some people want to be able to create non-nuclear families. Like,

We have to take off this idea that it's all always about sex and that it's always about intact couples trying to add a third because it's so much more complex than that.

Yeah. I want to go back really quick. What is a non-nuclear family? Can you give us an idea of what that means? Yeah. So any family, so the family structure that we have been presented is, well, I mean, we've just gone through about 50 years of really strong arguments that the family structure is one woman and one man getting together and having their 2.2 children. And then I think they're allowed to have a dog and a cat as well. So that,

structure is only one of many. And if you look at cultures across the world, we have had many different kinds of families throughout all of time, including multi-generational families and including families that exist with more than two adults in them. When as a person, I parented seven children.

I got to tell you, having more parents, not a bad thing. Yeah, that's a lot of kids. It's a lot of kids to take responsibility for. And the, you know, wanting a non-nuclear family is also about wanting to have relationships that aren't necessarily about building into that white picket fence life.

I know people who are creating care communities. They're together because they're best friends and maybe they don't have sex. Maybe they're platonically related, but they are each other's life partners. And so maybe they also want to have sexual partners. Maybe they wind up with four adults living in a house because two best friends got married and they're like, we're together. We are the unit, but we also have other partners. There are a lot of ways to do this, but we're

Modern American imagination would have you think that that's just wild and crazy when in fact that it's not, it's not at all unusual. It's just that it's a much easier unit to control. The nuclear family is very easy to control. Yeah. I mean, it's really crazy. My man and I were just having a conversation about like,

our life moving forward. And we've been together for five years and he's very hung up on a lot of these labels and he's, you know, lived, lived a life. He's been married before he's divorced. And so like, he does not like like the label of marriage. Like I, he believed the, what he believes is different than like the societal structure, like you were saying. And, and I understand that too, but it is so interesting when we talk about it together, because I'm like,

why am I so like hung up on like, well, this is what we should be doing. And I have never done this. And, and I think that's part of it, right? It's like, you get this messaging your whole life. And this is like what society seems is like the right way. Yeah. And so when you're trying to like break that down or even have like conversations around it, you

you know, it's like me and my partner are together and I've never, we both agree that we've never felt more committed in a relationship than we are right now. But I'm so honest in the fact that I'm like, I want my fucking moment. Yeah. You know, I'm like, yeah, I put the ring and I want the party. And we've had a lot of conversations about like marriage and what that looks like. And it's funny. We like jokingly argue about these things. Like he wants to call me his partner and I hate it. I hate that. I'm like, I don't,

want to be a I mean I feel like we are partners but I'm like it just doesn't have the same ring to it as like Beyonce and wife like you know what I mean and I don't know what you mean

Because that meaning is actually conveyed by your society. It's not actually coming. It's not, the call's not coming from within you. It's, that is the resonance that you're feeling. Like I want other people to hear me called fiance. I want to fit into the cultural story. And there is, there is a very limited story for the partnership. We don't have a lot of story and it's certainly not romantic. And it's definitely not Disney romantic. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, I will say I, so I left a marriage. I'd already had my moment. I got married when I was 20. I had the thing. Then I left that marriage and I,

Three years, three years after I left that marriage, I wound up desperately wanting to marry a partner. Like really? And I had hate, like I left my first marriage thinking, oh my God, I never want to be in that box ever again. And then I kind of did. And I was confused by that because I am inherently polyamorous. Like this is just me. I am. But

When we really worked through it, what I realized is there were things I wanted and things I didn't. And we needed to negotiate for the actual relationship that we wanted. Because I did want, I wanted the big party. I wanted to be witnessed by our friends.

Um, I want, but my, but I didn't need, I didn't want all the trappings. I didn't even know if I wanted to sign the legal documents. And I love that you're saying this because same, like I told him, we actually had this conversation yesterday and I told him, I'm like, I don't need that. Like we're both independent people. We both have our own lives. We're kind of like, I wouldn't say long distance, but we live about two hours away from each other. So we're semi long distance and we've been doing this for five years, essentially. Five years is a lot.

Yeah. And, you know, and I'm like, we both, I think that's like what we value so much is that like, we have to like create the time and the space for each other and it's working really well, you know? And I said the same thing. I'm like, I don't think that, you know, it's like, I'm not here for your money. Like, I don't want you to take my money. You know what I mean? It's like, we are, we are coming together as partners, but...

So I'm like, I don't think I need the paper. And I know there's other ways to do it. Like you can have your own agreements, you know, like, and you can still get those written up and you can do the legal sign dot and paper. It doesn't have to be through the state. And I think for obviously they don't, people don't talk about that. I think more people are starting to, but it's not like the forefront of the conversation because like you said, it's not romantic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

And so what is romance and what do you actually want? Because I, when I really got down to like down to the bottom of what it was for me, I was like, oh, I want a grand gesture. I want to feel seen and partnered to you. So we threw a big party. We had the big, we had a big ceremony. I wore a absolutely vibrant green dress and he sang to me and it was amazing.

amazing. And it was exactly what I needed to feel the romantic picture that was right for us. And we've been polyamorous every damn day that whole time. It actually had nothing to do with it. We are doing it the way that works for us. And that's what I think most of the people who come to see me realize that there are aspects of

Deep partnership, long-term, enduring partnership that they love and aspects that they don't. So craft your own relationship. Have an intentionally designed, conscious relationship. And whether that includes legal documents or not, it does need to include lots of deep introspection to get there. And then we got to be vulnerable. We got to actually say what our bottom line requirements are.

And, you know, like I've worked with people right now. I have several people who are like, you know what? It's a bottom line requirement for me that I be able to travel alone for a month at a time, even if we get married. OK, so that's not been in the cultural imagination for most people for the last, say, 50 years.

Well, what if it is now? What if it is for you? What if you like right into the core of your agreements from the time you commit to each other? You're like, yeah, we're going to spend two months a year apart. That's because that's good for us. And, and then we have to add some more refined conversations about, and what if we have kids? Is that going to change?

Yeah. How's it going to change? What are we going to do? Like, what are we going to do to maintain autonomy and agency as we step deeper and deeper into the cultural Disney-fied version story? Hard Conversations. That's why I do this work. I love Hard Conversations. Yeah, I know.

I love it. I mean, I think too, like the thing, something that I'd like to just put out there is they're all, it's not just one conversation either. Like you're not just going to go into the conversation and have like an outcome after 30 minutes or an hour. They're like these continuous conversations. And that's something that I find a lot with myself. I mean, I'm a talker. I have this show. I'm also in the beauty industry. So I talk with a lot of women on my day to day and

It is, it has been so hard for me because obviously people ask questions like about your relationship and where are you at and when is this going to happen? And so it's like, like you're like constantly circling back to like what society says is the right way to do things and go like what you're doing. You're like breaking through some of these societal norms and creating space for it. And, and people don't get it. So it's almost, you know, for me, it's been like this

inner fight for myself. And I'm like, I know that this is the way I feel about these situations, but then I feel this pressure and yeah, it's like, oh, it's just, it's just like an open, you're not imagining it. You're not imagining it. So there's a, there's a term it was coined by Amy Grant. Um, it's called the relationship escalator.

Okay. The relationship escalator. I mean, when you get on the bottom of an escalator, you don't get to go right or left. You don't get to decide what pace you move at. And there is one destination. And in modern American culture, there is one destination. And along the way, you got to pick up your engagement ring. You got to get the dress. You got to get the perfect dress.

spouse, then you got to get married. Then you got to produce those children. You got to have the right career. Like it's just a trajectory. And along the way, you also have to do all the dating stuff. And even each of those relationships, even if they come to an end, each of them has to progress on the escalator. Like you have to just keep escalating to the next stage until you reach that stage where you're like, okay, I have to go.

What if we don't get on the escalator? What if we decide instead to intentionally like build a ladder with some people and then with other people be like, let's just stay on the ground floor. Let's just hang out here. And we do that with our friendships. You know, with our friendships, we're okay having friendships where we're like, you know what? These are like outer tier people. They don't know all my details, but I'm perfectly happy to hang out with them. Like we'll meet at the bar, whatever. Yeah.

But you've got your inside to your people, like your people people, right? And those people, we understand like, yeah, things do escalate. But a lot of times we hit a stage where we're like, no, it's okay. It can stay here. And we don't judge that relationship as bad because we don't keep it escalating. So in friendship, we know how to do this.

Why can't we do it in romantic relationship? And it's not personal. It's actually cultural. We have been taught that we can't. It's just so deep seated. Yeah. And it's not that old. Stephanie Koons has a great book called Marriage, A Short History. And it's...

Absolutely. It helped me so much contextualize what we expect. I'm Gen X and what I expected out of marriage was very much like what my parents expected out of marriage, which is to say it was meant to be based on love and romance and partnership that resulted in a house and kids and dual careers. That's only about 50 to 75 years old.

And before that, marriage would have been based on other things. It would have been based on security. Before that, it would have been based on exchanging property and ownership. Before that, it would have been based on survival. I need a partner because we literally will not survive the winter. And that's, we're just talking about like 150, 200 years ago. Right.

Standards changed, but then we upgraded our idea and we're like, no, the only right way is the Cinderella story. If you don't get that, you're fucked. Like you just like, you totally are not living the life. And I watched my own daughters do that. They imagine into this, like, I have to have that romantic love story. It's really hard to know on my side that like, actually that romantic love story is just one tiny version of happiness. Yeah.

And remember, it doesn't actually wind up being happy for a lot of women, a lot. Yeah. So many of us. Yeah. It's hard to break away from that social expectation. I think too, it's like, if you haven't been down that road, you don't know what you don't know. It's almost like a what if, or kind of maybe feeling like you've missed out or yeah. Like it, and that's, I think it can go in either way of like culturally what we've been

conditioned to know or, but I think a lot of times people just have to figure it out on their own, you know? And, and I think that's kind of like where, um,

I don't know. Yeah. I guess that's kind of like where me and my man are. It's like, he's, he's done these things already. And so he's seen the other side and he made a comment to me yesterday where he's like, I don't want you to be my wife. I you're like better than that. You're better than a wife. What's the word that's better than a wife. That's what he said to me. That is 100%. My husband never calls me his wife. And I only refer to him as my husband. If somebody asks if we're married, because I'm like that, that those words don't really feel like they describe the situation. I,

I am much more likely to call him my lover. Like that's an accurate descriptor. This is so funny. Yeah. So I told him, he's like told me, he's like, well, what if I called you my lover? And I'm like, well, we're like...

I'm like, right now it kind of feels like I'm like the secret hidden girl, your lover. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But I just told him yesterday. Out of a Daniel Steele book. Yeah. Yeah. I told him yesterday. I'm like, if you propose to me and we're engaged, then I feel like you could call me your lover and I would be okay with that. And he was like, that sounds so much better. Like if I told my guy friends like, oh yeah, she's my lover. They would be like, oh, what?

Like, you know, he was like playing this whole scene. Like you have a lover, tell me about her. But he's like, if I call her my wife, they're like, oh fuck man, you did that again. And, and like the culturally, the way men are taught to talk about their wives. Yeah. It's so interesting. So I can totally, I totally get his point. Being creative with language is a big deal for me. And yeah, you know, I, I think you're right.

Sometimes we have to like go down that road and find out what it's like. And it's really, wouldn't it be awesome if we could actually learn from others' mistakes? Like, it would be wonderful if we could look across our friend groups and be like, oh my God, all of my girlfriends keep dating the same red flag guys. Maybe I should do something different. Maybe I should choose differently. But instead we have to go date our own red flag guys.

And we have to figure it out, figure it out the hard way. And that's so what marriage winds up being for so many people. And when I, when I talk to people about, you know, breaking out of the monogamous box, I'm often like, well,

You've done monogamy your whole life. Has it been easy? And universally people are like, no, I mean, life, like life, relationships, sex, easy. No. Like, okay, this is just a different kind of hard. It's just a new flavor of hard.

You may like it. You may hate it, but it also isn't a one-way door. It's not like you walk through it and you're like, oh, now we have to be open forever. Of course not. You know, you, you're exploring what works for you and you're doing that and getting that embodied knowledge. Like how differently will you feel if you do get the ring? If you do have the wedding, if you do like on the other side of that, maybe you'll feel similarly to him and be like,

Oh, that wasn't, I didn't need that. It was some other thing that I thought I needed. Yeah. Cause you just can't know from in here. Yeah. I like that. You talked about how, when you and your partner, um, your non-monogamous non-monogamous partner that you're with now, how, when you had your, your wedding or your party, um,

you refer to it as like a romantic gesture. Like that's, I resonate with that. Like in that conversation, it's like, that's what I feel like the bigger side of it is for me. It's like, I want to see, like, I want this big romantic gesture, not necessarily like this documented piece of paper. You know what I mean? So totally. And I,

And I think that that's where things get really interesting too, because for me, crafting an agreement that actually formed the foundation of our life together. Like, obviously we didn't say we would, that we would, what is that word? Goodness, I've lost it. Sorry. We didn't say that we wouldn't have relationships with any other people.

We didn't, we left that out of our vows, but we created this really elaborate set of connection commitments. Like what are our commitments to each other? How do you create a romantic gesture that will like satiate that part of you and agreements that actually feel like they fit the version of you? And then the thing I always ask people is, and then when are you going to revisit the agreements? Because I spend most of my life teaching people how to make agreements and

And they are not finished things. You said, you know, it's not one conversation. Yeah, it's not. This is learning how to do this skill so that you will repeat it throughout your life because you're going to change as individuals. And so you got to come back and revisit this, not just when you have kids, but when all sorts of things change, anytime you're experiencing any sort of internal change, which can even happen. I mean, like I've watched people go through massive change during a cancer diagnosis and

during the loss of their parents, during having to face a big career decision. Do I move across the country or do I not? All of these things, like there are so many things that can change. So we need to have agreement making skills in all the relationships we have.

Yeah, no, that's so true. And it's like such great advice and something that I think is taken for granted or like looked at as like problematic almost when really it's like you're just opening the conversation. And as far as like,

um opening up your relationship and having these conversations I even think like if you guys decide to do something together bring in another partner or even go to a sex club like those conversations should be like almost the immediate after like oh yeah not like right when you're done with the experience but like you know the next morning over breakfast or and like kind of discussing like okay what did we like what didn't we like was there anything that we

We feel like we should change because I think a big thing too is you could have things that you agree to outside of the moment, but then you're inside of the moment and you're like, whoa, I don't think I liked that. Right. Well, because some of us imagine that we don't have any jealousy problems and then we all of a sudden in the lived experience, we do. There are a million ways to deal with this. I teach a two-part course.

I think of things like going to a sex club or having a threesome or even just going out to a bar and like being open to flirting with other people, like really simple things or saying like, yeah, go ahead, meet up with your, you know, your, your old flame, go to dinner and then come home. Like it's, it's fine. Like we have an agreement that you're not going to have sex, but yes, it's okay if you kiss and then come home. What's the plan for when you come home or when you next see each other?

I recommend a two-part system. The first is reconnect because you just experience something that lets you really feel the fact that you are two individuals. You are not this enmeshed one. You are two individuals who had very different experiences. So allow yourselves to reconnect through eye contact, through communication,

co-regulation practices, allow yourselves to do what you need to do. For some people, that's going to include words of affirmation, lots of reconnecting words, saying I love you. For some people, it's going to be having sex again, but not talking about the scene. Then after we've reconnected and we've established that we are together and we just did something odd, something that was different, now we do a debrief. Now we get in and we talk about

What was the best part of that for you? What was the worst part of that for you? What do you wish we could do differently if we were doing it again? And then maybe, do you want to do it again? Is that something we want to try again? Or was that like, I learned it once and I learned my lesson. Yeah. I did want to touch base really quick before we go on the jealousy part of it. Can you kind of describe the difference between

jealousy and like detrimental jealousy? Yeah. That's a great question. And most people don't think to ask it that way because it's,

A lot of us imagine that jealousy is just bad and negative and we should just put it away. But jealousy is, you know, it's a warning system. It's designed. It's there from the time we're babies. It's designed to tell us like, hey, you have a deep connection to this person. You value that connection and you're feeling like there's an interruption. The interruption might be real. It might not. Sometimes it is just an Instagram like and we're like blowing it all out of proportion. But sometimes

The experience of jealousy can be healthy as in, can I sit with my jealousy? Can I see it as like, Ooh,

I don't actually trust this person. Now I have to ask myself questions. What does that mean? Do we actually have agreements or do we not have agreements? And I'm flying by the seat of my pants. And so I'm scared and I'm hypervigilant and looking at everything. That's not actually just a relational problem. That's also a, have I stated my needs? Have I made those clear? Right. Yeah. Pathologize.

Pathological jealousy, right? That comes in where someone is struggling because they have either a long history with jealousy where maybe they've been cheated on a lot of times or often they have cheated. And so they see other people as cheaters, right? Like we project.

And so there's a lack of trust that leaves them feeling jealousy anytime there's any kind of perception of interruption or anything that they think other people will perceive as interruption. So in other words, if you embarrass me in front of my friends by wearing that thing.

This is not okay. Controlling each other out because we are terrified of the reality that our partner is another person and actually does have autonomy and agency. That is not healthy. And 74% of domestic violence cases in the U.S. have jealousy undergirding them, underlying them. And in this culture, unfortunately...

We have a lot of leeway for that. We pretend like that's okay. It's not fucking okay. Your jealous feelings are valid. They're yours. They do not justify violence. They do not justify emotional manipulation. So we got to start. I really, this is a, such a huge conversation. I prefer to think of jealousy as anger.

a really big part of my emotional maturity work. I can start to learn how to be with jealousy. I can start to learn how to negotiate with partners so that if I have a lot of jealousy, I can deal with it. And I can start to be with my partner who might be experiencing a lot of jealousy without putting myself in a tiny box and trying to never make them feel anything. Because that happens all the time. Like, oh my God, my partner felt jealousy. I have to make my life smaller. Don't touch anything. Right.

We actually have to grow a whole skill set. I have a jealousy roadmap that came out of my original dissertation research. And then I've been following that research up. It's actually research that talks about non-monogamy and monogamous people because we all struggle with jealousy. Jealousy is just about feeling uncertain about whether this relationship is actually a safe container for me. I like that you related it. Like the underlying theme that I hear you talking about also is like,

you, your feelings are yours. And I think a lot of the time people project them onto other people. And the one thing that I've learned and carried with me the most through doing therapy is like, I am in control of my feelings. And a lot of the time people, I don't think take a pause and a step back to ask themselves, like, why am I

I feeling this way. Instead, they like to blame it on the other person and be like, you made me feel this way when it's like, no one else is in control of your emotions. You are. So it's like, and that's what I hear you saying and talking about when we're kind of discussing this is, you know, you really have to take a step back and understand like, where is this coming from? Like, what is it about

my situation that is making me feel like this response, whether that's from, like you said, the past, the cheating, or not being able to like talk about your emotions or the control, the manipulation. And I do just, I like wanted to highlight that really quick because I do think it is like a very hard thing for people to do. And like you were saying with having some emotional awareness and like it, it comes with that. It comes with talking about,

more about being vulnerable, about how you're feeling, taking responsibility for it and knowing that like, yes, this could have been a trigger that started from someone else, but like you are in control of these emotions that you have. Right. And you're, you always have a choice about how you respond. Yeah.

And the thing we tend to do with emotions is we imagine that the natural response, whatever it like knee jerk response we're having, we normalize that. And we think like she did this. So I feel this way. And my reaction is totally normal. But most of us aren't really having a breadth of conversations about things like jealousy because jealousy is shameful in this culture. So why?

We don't know what normal is. We don't know, for instance, that there are lots of people who have spent time

polyamorous people, for instance, who are like, wow, jealousy is going to come up. I better learn how to manage my reactions to it because polyamorous people aren't not jealous. They've learned how to be with jealousy. Right. And this is one of those times where I'm like, it's not about what relationship style you are. It's about what can we learn from each other and the way that we're living. But if, if people who are practicing monogamy and struggling with jealousy, if could take one thing away from polyamory, it would be

Jealousy is going to happen and you can absolutely learn to react to it differently. And that will increase your relationship happiness no matter what kind of relationship you have. That's amazing. This conversation went in so many different ways that I didn't even expect, but I think it's so important because...

People aren't always having these conversations. And I know like I relate a lot to them, especially like where I'm at in my life right now. And I know that my listeners will also. I wish I could just keep talking.

to you. I feel like we didn't even really touch base on a lot of other things. So we'll definitely have to have you come back on and do like a two parter for sure. I would so love to come back anytime Tatum. That would be so great. Okay. Before we go, I do have a little game. It's called, are we still talking? And they're just like, um, rapid fire questions. You can answer it's totally no wrong answers. So, um, what is something you wish more people knew about you?

Oh, I am such an open book. That's rough. Oh, okay. I'll be really vulnerable that I get really nervous about making new friendships. I get really, really nervous. Yeah. I mean, that's honestly so relatable. I think people don't actually talk about that also. I love that. Okay. Define dating.

Oh, that process of getting to know a person well enough to know if I want to actually open my bedroom door to them, open my bank up bank account to them or open my heart to them. Any of the above. Okay. Name a must have in the bedroom. Oh my God. I'm going to, I got to, I'm going to go with a doxy.

What's that? A doxy is like if a Hitachi went like to the next level. It's such a good vibe. Such a good vibe. I love it so much. I've never even heard that. Okay. Give a sex tip for women. Oh, all the time you need to get to where you need to get. If you think you're taking a long time,

You're not, you're not taking a long time. Slow the hell down. Allow yourself to be in the moment. And if you are with a man and he's not appreciating that again, just out of the, like if there's a trap door to just let him out the side of your bedroom, do that now. Cause if he thinks you're taking too long, he is not the one out the door, out the door, out the door. Yes. Yeah. I love that. Okay. And then last one, sex without communication or communication without sex.

That's a hard one. I feel like I'm going to, I'm going to have to go with communication without sex. That is a hard choice, but I can, I can handle myself if need be, but I love emotional, emotional conversation and the conversation that goes with that. And as I'm thinking about aging, I'm like, you know what?

Someday I may not be able to physically have the sex that I want to, but my brain is still going to want to have those juicy conversations. Yeah. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Is there anything that you're working on that you want to share with the listeners or let them know where they can find you?

Yeah. So if people are like, wait, hang on, I need to know more about this, like the best steps to open relating, go to open easier.com. I have a one hour, I run it live a one hour monthly class where I teach the five pillars of open relating. It's a great way for people to just find out like no pressure, find out whether you're even in a good spot to consider that.

Ideally, you'll do that before you take the leap. But if you already took the leap and things are rough, join me. That will help you diagnose yourself about like, oh, this is what's going on. So go to openeasier.com. Thank you so much again for coming on. It was honestly just an amazing talk for sure. Thanks so much, Tatum.

All the shit that people are thinking but not saying. I'm not even like drunk. I've just been like drinking. Does my podcast offend you? Men, if you're listening, I apologize in advance. Women, hey bitches, are you ready? Are you still talking? Girl, stop talking.