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and we weren't alone. It was desperately sad. Meet Topher Payne. I am a playwright and teacher in Atlanta. I think of you as the ultimate repairman for broken children's books. I'll absolutely take that. One of Topher's projects is writing new endings for classic children's books.
In 2020, he picked up the giving tree for the first time since childhood. To refresh your memory, here's the gist. Once there was a tree and the tree loved the boy. And every day the little boy would come and play in the tree's branches and they had a marvelous friendship. But as the boy grows up, he starts asking for things. And the tree always says yes.
First it's apples. Eventually it's wood to build a house. And the tree gives her branches, which do grow back, but they grow back so much slower. But she gives them up because she loves the boy. And then he wants to build a boat and so on and so on until the tree is nothing but a sad little stump and there is nothing left of her. And the boy comes back as an old man and she has nothing left to give and he sits on her.
The end. For me, the most fucked up part of the story is the ending, where the tree is reduced to a literal stump and it says, and the tree was happy.
Like, what the hell are you talking about? The tree isn't happy. The tree hardly exists anymore. No! You know, the most common hot take that I hear on the story is that it is an allegory for maternal love. You just give everything that you have to your child and you see them thriving and they are so happy.
And the two things that I want to say to that are, one, nuh-uh, that's not how motherhood should work. And two, the boy is not happy. There is nothing in the story that indicates that this behavior results in the boy being happy. The boy always comes back seeking more and doesn't understand why he doesn't feel fulfilled.
It's exactly right. I mean, the boy is a huge taker, the worst. And it's, it's, it's, I don't even know, people saying this is an allegory for maternal love. No, it's an allegory for an abusive relationship. Yes. This notion of give till it hurts. No, sometimes pain is a sensor telling you to stop something.
And so don't give till it hurts and certainly don't give past hurting. And the tree does. Well said. The tree has confused giving with self-sacrifice. Mm. And... Mm.
It almost seems like the tree is the most extreme people pleaser you could possibly imagine. I'm going to neglect whatever my own needs are in order to say yes to whatever this boy asks for. And then you will believe how much I love you. The giving tree illustrates a familiar problem in life and at work. The temptation to say yes to everyone and everything. We think it makes us likable and promotable.
But if you want to build balanced relationships and achieve your goals, you need to master the art of saying no. I'm Adam Grant, and this is Work Life, my podcast with Ted. I'm an organizational psychologist. I study how to make work not suck. In this show, we explore how to unlock the potential in people and workplaces. Today, why it's so hard to say no and how we can get better at setting boundaries. This episode is brought to you by Human Intelligence from WorkHuman.
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For a long time, I was a people pleaser. I bent over backward to say yes to as many people and as many requests as I could. I thought that was core to being a kind, giving person. But I was overextending myself. I knew it was bad when I started wondering if I needed to schedule calls with my friends because I was too busy helping randos. Then I read research suggesting that the root of chronic people pleasing is not concern for others. It's concern for their approval.
In other words, it's not about them. It's about you. I wasn't going overboard for others because I cared too much about them. I was doing it because I cared too much about their opinions of me. I said yes because I wanted them to like me and accept me. It probably started as a solution to being bullied in elementary school, but it had created a new problem. I'd come to rely on others for self-esteem. I craved their validation, so I was putting them above myself. The evidence is clear.
Not only is that a path to emotional exhaustion, it doesn't actually build strong connections. It creates one-sided relationships where we feel used instead of supported. And at work, it can undermine rather than advance our progress. I needed to learn to say no, but just saying no is not as easy as it sounds.
No is a complete sentence is my least favorite expression in all of like the self-help literature. It drives me insane. Vanessa Bonds is a professor of organizational behavior at Cornell and the author of You Have More Influence Than You Think.
She's an expert on the psychology of saying no. And the thing that's funniest to me is like, yes is a complete sentence. So like if you imagine someone asking you for something and you just say, sure, or yes, I'd be happy to, right? Like all that's, you don't need any justification. You don't need to explain why you said yes. But I don't know anyone who feels comfortable just saying no without any explanation or kind of, you know,
way of placating the other person. Vanessa knows this from experience. She has a long history of people-pleasing. Definitely. I'm such a people-pleaser. It's, yeah. Are you just saying that to please me right now? I guess that's the best test of a people-pleaser. Are you a people-pleaser? And the people-pleasers just say yes. In one of her early studies, Vanessa investigated whether people say yes to requests more often than we realized.
She asked people in New York City to guess the odds that strangers would agree to onerous requests, like walking them to a destination they couldn't find, or even borrowing their cell phone. Then she sent them out to actually make those requests. Even New Yorkers said yes a lot more than expected. Nearly half agreed to walk people to their destinations, and nearly half handed over their cell phones. Across all these different requests.
It was typically about twice as likely for people to agree to these requests as our participants expected. So why do we say yes so often, even to questionable requests from total strangers? One of the best ways I think about a request is it's essentially someone sort of reaching their hand out to another person. So it's like, I'm extending my hand and asking for your help.
Or it's I'm extending my hand and asking you for a date. Or it's I'm extending my hand and asking you to like join me in this unethical pursuit. But whatever it is, it's like I'm extending my hand and asking you to cooperate with me. And if you don't take my hand, if you say no, if you reject me, you are not being cooperative. Right.
And everything in our being, you know, from how we've evolved to how we've been socialized, tells us that we're supposed to cooperate with other people. And so when we say no, we're potentially risking damaging our reputation and looking like uncooperative people. We're potentially damaging our relationship with that person.
And then there's also this risk of sort of tangible repercussions, right? It's possible that this person won't reciprocate down the line. It's even possible that they'll get aggressive with us because they're upset. So there's just so many risks, many of them social, but some of them even instrumental, involved in saying no. Especially at work, where pay and promotions often seem to be riding on saying yes. Surprisingly, we often feel extra pressure with more distant colleagues.
It's called the acquaintance trap. With people close to you, your relationship is secure, so you don't need to worry as much about declining. With strangers, there's no relationship, so there's not as much pressure to uphold a reputation. But with acquaintances, relationships are just uncertain enough that you feel like you can't say no because you want them to like you. And for certain groups, these pressures are magnified.
women are socialized to be communal and cooperative. And so when we say no, when we essentially say, no, I'm not going to cooperate, right? First of all, we aren't living up to the expectations that we've been socialized to have, that we're supposed to be communal and cooperative. And so we feel bad about ourselves. We also are off
often punished reputationally because we're not conforming to the stereotype of women being communal and cooperative. And so people kind of see us as less warm. They may, you know, have sort of a negative impression of us if we say no, because it doesn't fit what they're expecting us to say.
I think I was known as, like, the nice girl in class, which as an adult I look back on and I'm like, hmm, what does that really mean? What does being nice really mean? Sherry Liu is a content creator and the founder of the Eldest Daughter Club, an online community for eldest daughters. She's also a fellow recovering people pleaser.
This impulse started as a kid when she really wanted to be liked. And so I think part of being liked, though, if you just want everyone to like you, you can't really take too much risks. Like one thing, you can't really say no if someone asks you for something. What kinds of things would you say yes to?
People would ask me for help on homework. People would ask me for help on school projects. And I was happy to say yes and help on those things, but it was not really coming out of a place, I feel like, where I was like, oh, I genuinely feel like I want to help. It was that, like, I want to make others happy, but I'm also so scared to say no, because what if you're unhappy with me? These experiences led Sherry to create her community of eldest daughters.
They live in the center of a Venn diagram of people-pleasing pressure.
They're female, and they often take on parenting responsibilities at a young age. My little sister is seven years younger. And when your little sister or little sibling has a significant age gap, you don't grow up as peers. Your little sibling's like looking up to you. And so the eldest daughter part, I think, of people-pleasing comes in when you feel like your actions are just more than your own, and it has this trickle-down effect to your little sibling. Sherry's cultural background also plays into this.
So I'm the eldest daughter of an immigrant family, meaning I was born here, but my parents immigrated from China. And so they brought a different culture in raising. And I think like just in generally Asian cultures, it's more collectivist than the Western culture. You're really cognizant of authority and you want to make like authority being like your parents or your bosses. And that goes hand in hand with respect.
And you want to make sure everyone around you is comfortable and you're always anticipating other people's needs. This proved to be a challenge at the beginning of her career. People think me, because I am not only an Asian woman, but also like short in stature, that I'm just going to say yes to everything. And they expect me to in a way that I think they don't expect my other colleagues. Wow.
When I started my first job, I knew that for me to be successful in corporate America, I can't be saying yes to everything because I need to make sure I get promoted and I can't be promoted if I'm doing secretarial work 100% of the time or the work that nobody wants to do and gives it to me and the work that has no impact. And so in the workplace, I was like, okay, like I myself am trying like my best to not people please and stand up for myself. But at the same time, I have to be successful.
I had to experience this additional challenge of people just thinking like, oh, like this is someone who is going to just say yes to everything we ask. Research shows that unfortunately, helping at work is less optional for women than men. Women are asked to do the lion's share of the office housework, taking notes in meetings, planning events. They face more pressure to say yes, but get less credit. It's taken for granted. She's warm and caring. She wants to help.
When a man helps, it's rewarded. I never would have expected him to care about another person. What a great guy. If he declines, he gets a pass. But a woman faces a penalty. Saying no violates the unfair expectation for women to be other-oriented. And these dynamics are often heightened for women of color. So even though Sherry knew this might be a risk going into her job, she still wound up saying yes too often. That is, until she got a new manager.
And I was telling her, I was like, I've worked so hard this year. I've been working towards a promotion. Like, where am I? And she looked me stir in the face and she was like, all of your projects, you're working a lot, but you're all helping other people. Like, you need something that you own. And I was like, but I don't have time to do any of these things because I'm
everybody needs my support and like I want to help the team and she's like well I'm just going to be honest with you for you to like
gain leverage in the workplace and to like eventually be a senior leader you need to really carve out things of impact that you yourself lead and that means saying no to other extraneous requests it actually doesn't help you to be the most easygoing person in the office and say yes to everything everyone's gonna like you but that won't get you anywhere and I was like oh my goodness I
I need to start saying no to things. Sherry enlisted her manager's help. After that conversation, in the future, I would go to my managers and I would very clearly articulate what I wanted. I was like, okay, it's my priority to do these things, but just so you know, for me to do these things, I'm going to need the time to do them. And that is going to mean that I might have to say no to requests from
That conversation made a difference.
It made it so much easier for me to say no because I also knew that my manager was on my side and that they would also stick up for me. And that saying no wouldn't mean people thinking I was a bad coworker because it would be clear that I'm saying no because I want to say yes on the things that are actually unfortunate. It's easy to default to saying yes. But as Sherry learned, there are big payoffs to protecting your own time and boundaries.
How do you say no without jeopardizing your reputation and relationships? More on that after the break. Hello everyone, I'm Sy White, co-host of the WhatCulture Gaming Podcast. We dive deep into the world of gaming, past, present and future, and we're proud to be sponsored by McDonald's all-new McCrispy Strips. It's chicken made for dipping. Chicken so good it deserves its own sauce, the creamy, chilly McCrispy strip dip.
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The Kohler Veil Smart Toilet has a heated seat, hands-free opening of the lid, and customizable bidet functionality. It is incredible. But beyond the technology, the design is just stunning. The veil's curved silhouette and honed black actually inspired creative director and fashion designer Laura Kim to create a stunning black chiffon dress that debuted on the runway at New York Fashion Week.
The creative partnership between Kohler and Laura Kim is changing how we think about everyday objects, like a toilet. Transform your routine into something extraordinary with the Kohler Veil Smart Toilet. Back in 2013, the New York Times Magazine did a cover story about my research on why it's better to be a giver than a taker. It was called, Is Giving the Secret to Getting Ahead? And it went into detail about my efforts to help as many people as I could.
I'd become a caricature of a giver. And after the article came out, people started seeing me as the generosity guy. It was like a flashing neon sign for takers. This guy will say yes to anything. I got flooded with thousands of emails from acquaintances and complete strangers wanting things. Hey, Adam, will you review my book? Hey, Adam. Hey, Adam. Can you give me some advice? Would love your thoughts on my draft. Do you have some time to chat? It was a wake-up call.
I realized that there's a big difference between pleasing people and helping them. Yeah, I have a lot to say about that. So essentially, you know, there's a distinction between giving and giving in.
In her research, Vanessa Bonds has found that saying no doesn't have to burn bridges. We do tend to overestimate how negatively we'll be seen if we say no. I think part of that is because we're so focused on this one moment, right? This is super salient, right? We pay attention to the thing that's right in front of our face, a super tangible thing. And we're like, oh, this is the only way people are going to know me in this moment. But in fact, people have like
a much longer term impression of us, right? They've seen all the times we have helped. And, you know, this is just one out of many instances. Once you accept that it's acceptable to say no, you need some boundaries. I certainly did. My favorite way to set them is to create personal policies. Instead of treating every request as a separate dilemma, I made a list of guidelines for what kinds of requests I wouldn't fulfill.
I don't work for companies for free. I don't give career advice to strangers. I don't write forewords to books. It's one thing to set boundaries. It's another to communicate them. For more than a decade, I've been test-driving strategies for saying no. And I've found three that consistently work. They tend to avoid negative reactions and sometimes even elicit positive ones like, wow, I respect your boundaries. And, huh, I need to do more of that myself. You could just say no.
But if you're worried that the other person might be upset, it can be helpful to give reasons. Research suggests that when you provide a credible explanation, people are more understanding, even if it's not the response they wanted. That goes to my first strategy for saying no. Explain your personal policies. When you walk through your philosophy on boundaries, you make it clear to people that you're not rejecting them. It's not about them at all.
Totally. It's like those email signatures that say, like, I don't check email during these hours. It's like not only protecting your time, it's teaching people a norm. Like maybe we all shouldn't check email at those hours. An easy one is like, will you post about my book on social media? No, that would quickly turn my feed into book launch spam. I can't do it for everyone. I won't do it for anyone.
Yeah. You know, what's funny about that, too, you know, speaking as someone who asked you for a book endorsement, my assumption going in is like this person's going to say no.
And so, you know, you knowing that as the person being asked, that that person doesn't necessarily expect a yes, right? If they do, that's kind of entitled. And I feel like that's a different category of person. So like most people are not expecting a yes. So a polite, warm, thoughtful no is like a win for a lot of people, right? Sure enough, there's evidence that if you're the one being asked, you tend to focus on the outcome for the help seeker.
But they judge the interaction more by how they're treated in the process. Wow, Adam Grant sent me a really nice email back. You know, he couldn't do it, and that's fine. I mean, he's really busy, you know. So I think understanding that, like, people don't necessarily expect a yes, and they're, like, pleasantly surprised when you do say yes. I think that's just an important thing to know. This speaks to the second strategy, conveying care.
You can say no in a way that still shows concern for others. So when I go to the grocery store, they always ask for donations. And I always say, oh, I've already given this year. And that makes me feel like, OK, I've said I'm a generous person. You know, I've declined nicely, but it's a clear no. Research reveals that this is especially effective for women to avoid backlash. So
So one thing a lot of women I know do is they'll have a list of all the things that they have agreed to. And so they'll say, you know, I would love to do this, but I'm doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, you know, all these other things. And that shows like, look at how giving and communal and cooperative I've been. I'm a major contributor to this organization. But I just can't say yes to this. I have too much on my plate. I often just say, sorry, my plate is beyond full.
Then I offer something that costs me nothing, but I hope is beneficial to them. For the most common requests, I've written up responses to frequently asked questions. Strangers seeking career advice get a list of my favorite books, articles, and podcasts. Authors asking for forwards get a brain dump of the lessons I've learned about how to promote a book. And companies seeking speakers get recommendations for authors who are launching new books. That speaks to the final strategy, the referral strategy.
So when somebody asks for your help, you can give it yourself or you can help that person sometimes just as well as if you did it yourself by referring them to another person. Right. You could say, you know, I could help you. But actually, my colleague knows even more about that. And I'd be happy to refer you to them. But research has shown that we really don't like to do that.
It's called referral aversion. We worry, first of all, that it's going to make us look incompetent, right? So that kind of gets at this idea of like my reputational concerns. And people also worry that it's going to kind of damage the relationship with the other person. I think there's a sense of like, I am worthy as long as people need me. We're also afraid that by passing the baton, we'll be letting others down.
And it turns out those fears are generally misplaced. We actually overestimate how much people are disappointed by getting a referral, right? And so that that concern is often bigger in our own heads than it is for the other person. And so if it was purely other-oriented...
Right. It might be best for the other person for you to refer them elsewhere. And yet we hold on to that request and we feel like we need to take it on ourselves. The day that I became not only comfortable, but also enthusiastic about saying, you know what, I actually know someone who's more qualified to help on this and also is going to take more time for you. The day I was excited to do that is the day I felt like I was starting to get over this chronic need to be liked thing.
And I think that it sort of crystallized for me as a difference between being needed and being valued. That if I felt like other people needed me, I felt like they were dependent on me. And it was creating a sense of obligation that I had to help them. And I would worry about them. I would feel guilty if I let them down. And what I want is to be valued. Absolutely. There is so much value.
sort of advice and information out there for how to get better at saying no. And we tend to put so much pressure on the person who has to say no to be the one to manage that, right? To come up with, you know, we have these strategies like you and I have been talking about, but there's a responsibility on the people asking to ask in ways that aren't coercive. The data points to several ways to do that. To avoid imposing, you can ask, would you or someone you know be willing to
Vanessa finds that it also helps to give people the words to say no. When I make requests, I often say, no pressure, no obligation, no repercussions. And when I invited Vanessa to this podcast, I couldn't resist writing, if you'd like to refuse, please say the words, hell no.
We found that when you give people the words to say no, that they don't necessarily say no more, although maybe a little bit. But the big thing is they feel more like they could have said no. Right. It feels more voluntary when they do agree.
Another way to show respect is giving people time to process. So making a request and saying, you know, let me know tomorrow or let me know when you've had some time to think about it. And asking over email is much less coercive than asking in person. How much less? In one study, Vanessa found that people were 34 times more likely to say yes face-to-face than by email. And so I often give the advice of if someone asks you something in person face-to-face, you
ask them if you could take some time and respond over email. Say, I'll think about that a little bit. I'll send you an email with my answer tomorrow or whatever it is. So that is kind of getting you out of that pressure zone, giving you some time to think, actually make a mindful decision about what you want to do and then respond to them in a way that you feel good about, right? I mean, that's another thing to think about. Like each time we say yes to something, we're kind of saying this is okay, right? We're saying like, it is acceptable for us to ask these things.
And sometimes we don't want people to feel like, oh, that was wrong to ask. But sometimes it's like, no, I'm actually going to teach you that this isn't something you should be asking for. I'm so glad you brought that up. I was just talking with our students about this. And we had an example where a student said, like, she's one of the only people she knows on campus with a car.
So whenever anybody she knows needs something that requires transportation, they basically impose on her for car privileges. And she said it was starting to damage some of her friendships and they were using her, but she didn't want to hurt the relationship.
And I was like, look at this from the other side, which is every time you say yes, you are licensing and reinforcing that behavior. And you're failing to educate people and teach them that you have boundaries. And so setting a boundary is actually not only a chance for, you know, for you to protect your time and your relationships. It's also a chance for those people to learn what's a reasonable ask and what's inappropriate.
I had a colleague who just kept asking me shamelessly for things that were unreasonable in the first place. Like, will you read and comment line by line on seven of my papers? And, you know, I did my usual polite no's and he just would not go away. And finally, it must have been the seventh or eighth request, I wrote back and I said...
I'm working on getting better at saying no. Thank you for the practice. I love that. That's one of the recommendations I give to when people want a reason to say no. That's like, it's not because I'm a bad person. It's not because I'm not helpful. It's just I'm working on this. It says like I am. My default is to say yes to this, but like I'm doing it too much. Don't be afraid to have some fun with it.
E.B. White, the author of Charlotte's Web, once turned down an invitation by writing, I must decline for secret reasons. An amusing or thoughtful no may well be appreciated more than a thoughtless yes. As Sherry Liu found out, she got in the habit of explaining her boundaries and conveying care.
Like, immediately, I would say, hey, I, you know, I'm at bandwidth right now, but I wouldn't just say no straight up. I would offer what I can help. If I were you, this is how I would approach it. And I would give them maybe a framework to go about it. She made referrals. I would say, I, you know, can't help you at this time. However, if you need it urgently, so-and-so might be able to give you the answer.
She learned that saying no wasn't as scary or risky as she'd expected. What surprised me when I started saying no in just all aspects of life is that people are actually really understanding. Like most people, when they ask you something, it's not like...
life or death situation or it's not black or white it's not like they ask you something if you don't do it they'll stop being your friend and i think when you start saying no and you realize sometimes people are just like okay no worries i'll do it myself or like no worries i'll ask somebody else you're like this thing that i in my head that was just so important to them actually was not that important to them that i helped them with it at this specific moment
And when someone says no to me for a good reason, I'm like, OK, whatever. Like, like, I totally understand. And I'm like, OK, wait, like if I react like this, then like, why do I feel like people are going to dislike me if I do the same exact thing?
It's so interesting to hear you say this as a long recovering slash mostly recovered people pleaser. One of the things that I've been surprised by is sometimes like a clear fast no leads people to respect me more. You know, let me, this is like an odd example, but you know how like, are you a cat person, Adam? We have two cats. How'd you know?
I don't know. I had to guess. I had to guess. But I think cats get more respect sometimes because they draw strong boundaries, you know? And then when a cat, like, when a cat who's not very cuddly comes and, like, cuddles you on your lap or, like, gives you affection, you're like, oh, my goodness. Like, this day is, like, the best day ever. Like, they chose me.
versus like maybe a dog. My family has a dog. She's like cuddly all the time and super affectionate. And when she's affectionate, like we are also very happy, but it's not the same amount of shock and joy as if like a cat who doesn't do that does it to you. I have to laugh at the cat comment because I'll never forget when I turned in my first book, I remember my editor reading it and saying, you know, Adam, dogs are givers and cats are takers.
Do you agree? No, I don't agree. Yeah, I think cats are, they're more selective. And that means it really counts when they give. What does that say? Setting boundaries isn't a display of disrespect. It's an expression of self-respect. It's not about letting others down. It's about standing up for yourself. Saying no is not selfish. It's an act of self-preservation.
Which brings us back to The Giving Tree, or as Topher Payne's rewrite is called, The Tree Who Set Healthy Boundaries. His version starts when the boy is grown up and returns to the tree for the first time. "'I am too busy to climb trees,' said the boy. "'I want a house to keep me warm,' he said. "'I want a wife and I want children, and so I need a house. "'Can you give me a house?' And the tree said, "'Okay, hold up, this is already getting out of hand.'
Look, I was fine with giving you the apples to help you get on your feet. They'll grow back next season anyway. But no, I'm not giving you a house.
And the boy is okay with that. He realizes he hasn't been a very good friend and begins to look after the tree, just like the tree looked after him.
Eventually, he has kids who also love the tree. And as each generation played in her strong old branches, the tree often thought back to the fateful day when the boy had asked her for a house. In truth, she would have gladly given him her branches to build one. She would have given him her trunk to build a boat. She loved him that much. ♪
But then she would have had nothing left. Not for herself, nor anyone else. And there never would have been a home for the red squirrels. There'd have been no hide-and-seek with the boys' grandchildren. No bakery with the best apple pies anyone ever tasted. Setting healthy boundaries is a very important part of giving. It assures you'll always have something left to give. And so the tree was happy. Everyone was.
The end.
Gratitude to the following researchers and their colleagues. Heidi Fritz and Vicki Helgeson on unmitigated communion. Vanessa Patrick on the acquaintance trap. Madeline Heilman and Julie Chen on gender and helping. Linda Babcock and colleagues on non-promotable tasks.
Jennifer Berdahl and Celia Moore on Double Jeopardy in the Workplace. Daly and Kane and colleagues on Giving vs. Giving In. Jerry Greenberg and Tom Tyler on Legitimacy. Joel Brockner on Receiver Reactions. Hannah Riley-Bowles on Women in Negotiation Tactics. Yijin Park on Referral Aversion. Vanessa's co-authors Frank Flynn, Rachel Schlund, and Mahdi Roganizad. And thanks to Izzy Carter and Theo Beidler. All right, what's one you want to throw at me? What's the hardest request for you to say no to? Hmm.
I feel like I should eat my own dog food here. I mean, I guess, you know, Adam, I have another book coming out. Will you plug it on social media? To borrow a line from Jim on The Office, that is not something I am going to do. Adam Grant is so mean. This episode is brought to you by Human Intelligence from WorkHuman.
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