Mindset, Sales & Success: Lessons from the Trading Floor with Hayley Rosenlund
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Hello and welcome to this special 12-part Career Insights series featuring interviews with inspiring women across finance, spanning trading, investment banking, data analytics, private equity and venture capital. These conversations are designed to deliver actionable career insights while educating and empowering the next generation of talent in our industry.

In this episode, I speak with Hayley Rosenland, who began her career as a trader after graduating from the Simon Fraser University in Canada and the LSE in London. She later transitioned into sales, rising to a leadership role at a major sell-side institution and now works full-time as an executive coach.

This has got to be one of my all-time favorite conversations because it's packed with insights and practical advice on both your professional and personal growth. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Hayley, welcome to the show. Great pleasure to have you with us. Perhaps like with all guests, we could start with a bit of a brief introduction to yourself. And if we could start from your student days all the way through to what you're doing today, that would be a great place to go from. Sure. Sounds good. So I guess as a student, I was kind of the classic good girl. I was a good student. And I

That meant when it came time to looking at universities, I kind of would have had my pick. And so what I chose to do was go to a school called Simon Fraser University, which is a good school by Canadian standards, although probably less internationally recognized than some other Canadian universities.

And I chose Simon Fraser for a variety of reasons. The first is I was very young when I was looking at universities. I was only 16 years old. And so I didn't really feel ready to move away from home.

I was also a competitive diver and wanted to dive at university. Most of the programs were in the States. But like I said, I wasn't really ready to move away from home. And Simon Fraser had a diving program. Can I just jump in quickly? So you were 16. Like, how does is that a Canadian thing? Or is that how does that work?

So I was a year ahead in school. I won't go into all the details. I wasn't some like, you know, child prodigy that skipped a grade, but I was a year ahead in school. So most students, I guess, when looking at universities would have been 17 and then turning 18 by the time they went to university. But my birthday is in April. So I turned 17 in April and graduated in June and started university in September.

So, yeah, I wanted to be at home. My brother went to this university. My uncle formerly went to that university and had a diving program. And I was also bearing the majority of the cost of my education myself. And going there meant I could live at home and, you know, reduce the cost of my education in not having to pay for accommodation. So I went there. In Canada, it works a little bit different.

A university is kind of a place to discover and explore. So, you know, not such a rigid three-year program as a lot of people do in the UK. So I took a lot of different classes and I landed on economics. And so I graduated with a Bachelor of Arts with Honours in Economics.

But as a result of the decisions I made in choosing that university, I had kind of, yeah, like a FOMO that I didn't study abroad. And a lot of my friends came back from semesters abroad or exchange years with great stories. And I realized I missed out on that. So I decided I would do a master's and that I wanted to do a master's abroad. And by some stroke of luck, I got into the London School of Economics. And so that's how I ended up in London.

And I did a master's in management at the LSE. And maybe what's interesting for your listeners to know is that I did not graduate the LSE with a job offer. I was so focused on getting perfect grades and, you know, study, study, study. And I did do very well. But then I graduated and kind of had nothing to go to. So I started, you know, trying to figure that out.

I didn't really know anything about finance coming from Vancouver. There's no finance industry there. But I started to, well, I guess living in London piqued my interest because it's so ubiquitous. And so I decided to apply for some placements. And so I applied for a six-month placement on a fixed income desk. And at the time, I didn't even know what fixed income was.

And ultimately, I got hired onto a commodities desk doing base and precious metals. So that was my first kind of foray into financial markets for six months. And while I was there, I started applying for graduate programs at other banks. And I did land on a graduate program. And after doing some rotations, I got hired as a credit trader.

So I traded credit for about three years. And after that, I moved into Nordic credit sales. And then I kind of took on progressively more senior management and leadership positions until ultimately I was running investment grade credit sales for EMEA. And I left the industry in 2023. And now I'm an executive coach. That's kind of my whistle stop to our

What a great whistle-stop tour. But one of the things, before we get into the kind of, I know we had some pre-agreed questions, but I'm just curious with, you said that when you got that very first job, so you finished LSE. Yeah. Because I just got off a call this morning with an LSE student and they were telling me about how hyper-competitive it is. And if you haven't got an internship yet, it's kind of, you're losing out. So you finished and then you didn't really know much. You got that job on the fixed income desk and commodities. Yeah.

What was it like between the bridge between what you thought it was going to be like and actually what it was like when you landed that first role? I guess I definitely had some regret. I realized that my fellow students spent a lot of time while at the LSE interviewing and applying for jobs and preparing for their next step. And I was so focused on studying that I didn't prepare for my next step.

So I definitely finished. And, you know, I graduated with this distinction. I got several awards and I was like so proud of myself, but then realized, uh, what now? So it was a bit of a scramble, a little bit scary. But I'm glad I stuck with it and stayed in London. Famously, my brother loves to remind me that I told everyone that I was leaving Vancouver for one year and I'd be back in a year. And, you know, now it's 16 years later and I'm not back.

So I stuck with it through the fear and the uncertainty and figured it out, I guess. Cool. And going into some of the first questions then, and one was...

kind of life on a trading floor and then a transition in roles, so to speak. And so one of the things when you and I caught up before, you were telling me about how a unique place a trading floor is. And I just wonder that I think a lot of people who listen to this, who might, a majority have never been on a trading floor, but then they're probably guided visually by movies and things like that. But could you just paint some color? Like what does make a trading floor unique in your experience?

Yeah, and it's such a good question simply because it is so hard to answer. So, but a couple of things come to mind when I think about the trading floor. The first is just the nature of people who work on trading floors. And I don't know how many people sit on a trading floor, let's say 300, but it's like 300 A type personalities. Everyone is different.

hyper-competitive, ambitious, extroverted, outspoken, confident, assertive. So it's just a clash of personalities. And that breeds a very work hard, play hard culture and environment. So, you know,

On the trading floor, you work very intensely most of the day, but, you know, in certain parts of the day, certainly. But there are certainly times of the year where it's a lot more laid back. And then there's a lot of fun as well, you know, and famously around Christmas, it's always a quiet time on the trading floor. And we would do silly things like try to name all the countries in Africa without looking at the map. And the whole team would get involved. Everyone would stand up and start shouting out countries, you

So, and, you know, there's always the, you know, the people who have been out with clients the night before who kind of roll in not feeling very fresh and awake. And so, you know, there's jokes about that. So, yeah, it's kind of the nature of the environment, the nature of the people there. But I think the other thing is risk. I mean, a bank's job is to price risk. Risk is their product.

And so by definition, there are a lot of swings in P&L. And so, you know, one headline could lose a single trader a couple million bucks in an instant. And I thought hard about this, whether that applies to the corporate world as well. And maybe it does. Maybe some people will be commenting, oh, you know, it's like that in a corporate setting as well. I've never worked in one. I don't know. But I think that...

that time sensitivity and reaction to headlines makes everyone who works on the trading floor hypervigilant, hyperdiligent. And it's not just headlines. We have to book and enter trades. And one mistake or fat finger, as we like to call it in the industry, can cost thousands. So it's a business where...

everything can cost money quite quickly. And so that requires quite a lot of diligence and vigilance. In addition to that, most people on a trading floor have their own P&L or some kind of budget. And I'm not sure it's like that in other environments. So, you know, that breeds a kind of intensity, I guess.

And the other thing I would say is noise. Noise is celebrated on a trading floor because noise is information. If you hear your sales colleague on the phone to a client, you can be getting some information from that. If you hear your traders talking to each other, there's information in that. So it's a place where kind of, you know, the noisier the better. And I think that's probably quite different than many other work environments.

Yeah, it's such a good description. I actually think that this is going to be like a current through our conversation, because I guess the question would be about has from when you started, has the trading floor evolved as the marketplace has evolved in terms of its sophistication, in terms of technology and execution, things like that?

Yeah. I mean, is that actually the case? I mean, has it changed? Because I'm dealing with a lot of employers now in my role. I get a lot of the kind of skill sets, I guess, that people look for. And it has gone quite quantitative, even from a trading perspective. Do you think that that has changed in that period of your career? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm really glad you brought that up and we'll come on to it later. But just going with your initial question about, you know, how has the trading floor environment changed? Certainly. I mean, you know, if anyone's seen that movie Trading Places, you know, there's nobody with two phones, you know, anymore. Definitely a lot of business is done by a chat. So it's a lot of typing, which just means there's less noise there.

And actually something I would say is Brexit has changed trading floors a lot because you don't have full teams together anymore. You've got, you know, hubs in London and then some people sitting in different centers, be it Frankfurt, Paris and other regional cities. So it's changed a lot through digitization and through decentralization.

But one thing that, you know, I always really valued was just trying to have as much atmosphere on the trading floor as possible and creating that atmosphere because, well, it makes work more fun and you do get information from it.

Okay. And then I just wanted to dive a little bit into the kind of the subtlety of the change in your roles, because it sounded like, as you described, you were starting in trading and then you moved more into a sales orientated role. So I just wanted to get a bit more of understanding about how that happened in that sense. Yeah, sure. So there were a variety of push and pull factors. Um,

I would say I wasn't very happy in trading. And that's because I was trading a product that wasn't very well suited to my personality. It wasn't a flow product. And I have quite an energetic personality. I think I'm the kind of person who needs action all the time. So that didn't really suit me.

And as a result, I lost some confidence in my ability to trade. But I also started learning some stuff about myself. I started realizing that I'm not a very decisive person. When I started looking at putting on trades, taking risk, I could see the upside, but I could also see the downside. And it made it really hard for me to make a decision.

And that's not a great characteristic for a trader, but it is quite a good characteristic for a salesperson to be able to see two sides of things. And so around this time when I was feeling this way, a new head of sales joined and she approached me about joining the sales team.

And so, first of all, I really wanted to work for her. She was one of the few senior women on the trading floor and I just really admired her. And so I wanted to learn from her. The second was I knew I wasn't totally happy in my trading seat and I had a feeling maybe I wasn't very well suited to trading.

And the third was it was just a fantastic opportunity. And so in that sense, I did look at it like a trader. I saw that it was a good risk reward trade because essentially I was being asked to cover the Nordics and we had historically not really done that.

any business in the Nordics. And at the time when I was, I was an associate with no sales experience being like just given a region on a platter. And I knew that any other bank that would be a managing director, probably maybe a director doing that job, um,

So I thought, what a fantastic opportunity to get access to all the largest clients in a region at a young age and to not really be able to do any worse than what was done before. There was only one way to go and that was up. So it felt like something I just had to jump up. And on that point then of moving to sales, because like I said, I had a conversation with this LSE student. It's just fresh in my mind.

And there's definitely this idea about almost like an artificial hierarchy in their head of what's prestigious and what's not. I wondered whether then, how do you feel about that? Because I think there is perhaps misconceptions about sales. In fact, I think a lot of students I speak to don't even think sales exists in a bank. They just think people trade, not completely understanding all the mechanics on how a bank works.

What's your take on that? Yeah, that is so spot on. There are a lot of misconceptions and there are ideas about hierarchies. And, you know, I wasn't necessarily going to touch on the hierarchy point, but something that did come to mind in thinking about this question about a misconception is that people think salespeople aren't as smart as traders or analysts.

And I would love to bust that myth. You know, it's true that there are a lot of different types of salespeople. You absolutely have the salespeople who are just so charismatic and charming. They get on the phone with their client and they talk about, you know, the football scores and suddenly trades just start pouring out of the phone. And you think like, how did that happen?

That exists. But what I would say is salespeople can be as informed and intellectual in their approach to sales as they want to be. Ultimately,

As a salesperson, your currency is your client and your job is to know your client. The trader's job is to know the market, the flows. The analyst's job is to know the company and the salesperson's job is to know the client. But you can, in getting to know your client, bring whatever you want to that. So I would say that's one misconception.

Another one is that you have to be extroverted to be in sales. I know that's something that held me back when I was making the decision because I feel like I'm not the kind of person who's like the life of the party who can just, you know, chat up any stranger. So I was like, well, I can't be in sales because of that. And it's really just not true. Yeah.

There are so many different types of personalities that are successful in that role. And remember that you're dealing with all different types of clients and an introverted client might not want to have a salesperson who's the life of the party and super social and extroverted.

And there's a lot of ways to be successful in the job. And so if you're more introverted, more intellectual, we'll bring that as a salesperson and you will find a way to be successful and find your clients who like that approach. And then the last thing I would say is, I don't know if this is totally related to the question, but it's a misconception for sure, is that a good relationship is not necessarily a personal relationship.

And this is a trap that I see a lot of, you know, salespeople fall into where they think you've got to be mates with your client to extract the most value from that relationship. And I think that goes wrong sometimes because you can't force a personal connection on something. Take, for example, suppose you're a 25-year-old dude and, you know, you're the sales guy and your client's a 50-year-old woman. Like, what's the chances you're actually going to be mates with this woman?

Like not a lot. More likely you can connect with her, but you're probably going to connect with her as like a mother figure. And probably that's not going to help if you start referring to her as kind of like, oh, you remind me of my mom, you know. So it's better to just approach it professionally. Just be professional. And there's a lot of value in a purely professional relationship. And then over time, if that builds into a personal relationship,

organically with certain people, then fantastic. But it doesn't have to be that. Yeah, I was going to ask you about what would the if you were to distill it down to key skills of sales, but I think you kind of answered it, which is, is actually going to be potentially different skills, depending on what type of salesperson that you are and what style you think suits you best, right? Yeah, absolutely. But I would say that there are like,

There's like a standard or there's basics. And if we look at what makes a salesperson great, I think the first thing to say is that all salespeople need to do the basics well. And you'd be surprised by how many people don't. And so whether you're introverted, extroverted, intellectual, less intellectual in your approach, enjoy building personal connections, very professional, you have to do the basics well.

And the basics are things like listen. People often ask, you know, what's the most essential skill for a salesperson? People think it's talking, but all these other things. No, it's listening. Every interaction with your client is an opportunity to learn something and to get information. And every nugget of information is useful. It can lead to a trade, a risk management decision, or just a deepening of that relationship. Um,

And as I said before, as a salesperson, your currency is how well you know your clients. So listening to get to know your client is absolutely essential. And, you know, if I can just give one example, I would say one of my claim to themes claims to fame as a salesperson, something that clients remember about me and mentioned to me is that I was the only salesperson they had ever met who took notes at a client dinner. And, you know,

People think it's nerdy. Like you go to a client dinner, you're there to like have fun, be social. But I realized I'm sitting with these people for two, three, maybe four hours and I'm learning so much. And especially when there's some bottles of wine involved, I'm not going to remember it all the next day. And I'm also not going to waste that opportunity to learn. So I don't care what anyone thinks. As long as the client's comfortable with it, I'm taking notes at the client dinner. Yeah.

Can I just ask, like, what gives you personally, what gives you confidence, though, to do like something just as small as that? Because a lot of people will be like, well, that's not the protocol. That's not normal. That's, you know, it's going to look weird. Yeah. But you did it. Yeah. But why? Like, how come you had the impetus to go, you know what, I'm just going to do that? It's a great question. Or does it just happen? And it's kind of that's just your instinct is to do that sort of thing.

I think so. And you know, there are so many moments in my career where I didn't have the confidence to do something I thought was right or helpful or useful or true to me. But this was one of the moments where I listened to myself. And I think it's because I knew deep down the client's

would be, um, would be supportive. Like they would see the intention behind, behind it. They would see that I, that I just wanted to learn and use every opportunity that I had to do as well as possible. And so, yeah, I think I had confidence they would see my good intention.

In addition to this kind of client dinner example, we're talking about sales skills and what makes salespeople successful. So there's listening and then there's following up and doing what you say you're going to do. And one of the most important questions to ask a client is, you know, how can I add value to you? And when they tell you, follow up on it. I would also say humility is so important.

As a salesperson, you have to remember that there's another 20, maybe even 40 of you at other banks doing your exact same job. And so you have to earn your client's attention and you have to earn your reputation. And you do that by adding value. So, you know, the thing that always stuck in my mind was when my client sees my name pop up either on the phone or on the chat, what do I want them to think?

Do I want them to think, oh, it's Haley again. She's probably fishing for information. Or do I want them to go, oh, it's Haley. I better pick up because she probably has something useful to say. The other thing I would say is salespeople need to be long-term greedy. So that means caring about the relationship, not just about the next trade. It means caring about your client's goals, not just your own.

And it means remembering that relationships are built over time and destroyed in an instant and protecting that. And the last thing I would say in terms of, you know, successful sales skills is being persistent and creative. Like I said, 20 to 40 people are reaching out to your client every single day. And those are just salespeople. There's other people. There's syndicate. There's traders, right?

they're bombarded so it really does take persistence to break through that noise and develop an ongoing dialogue with a client and sometimes you have to be creative sending a chat every single day and getting no response sometimes doesn't cut it and so you know what other avenues can you explore what other resources can you leverage to establish that dialogue with the client

Yeah, such a good description. It's so much more of a science than I think people might have thought. And actually, I think there's probably people who've got other experiences well beyond that of finance that are probably thinking, okay, so being creative, being persistent, there's a lot of traits here that are probably transferable, right from other life experiences, perhaps. Absolutely. Yeah.

Cool. Well, maybe a final question then on this section is about you've worked in different asset classes and different asset classes can have different kind of makeups in terms of compositions of teams. Some are perhaps more male orientated than others. And you might have experienced some of these. And I just wondered, as being a woman, how do you approach building credibility or authority in that space? Is it am I?

do I have a misconception almost that it's harder for women? What's your perspective on that? Yeah. So I would say my answer is twofold. And again, this just comes from my personal experience. But as a salesperson, I didn't...

Well, let's say it this way. As a salesperson, I felt very supported as a woman. I didn't feel different and I didn't look for reasons not to. And so my answer at kind of like more of a junior level would be the same for women and men. And that is just be excellent. If you proceed, if you pursue excellence, credibility and authority land in your lap. At a leadership level, I do think it's different. And there's a lot of studies that support this. The

the challenges that women face in leadership roles and particularly when women, not to get too academic, but violate gender perceptions or gender norms. And I would say operating at a management level in a male-dominated environment will qualify for that. And then some of the challenges women face are having to outperform male colleagues in order to be perceived in the same way.

and also double binds. So things like if a woman comes across as warm and nurturing, she might be perceived as weak or unassertive. On the other hand, if she comes across as dominant and assertive and confident, she can be perceived as too aggressive. And so that puts women in a no-win situation.

And so I would say at the leadership level, in addition to excellence, women also need to have a lot of resilience. Because I do believe that over time, if they are excellent in their leadership role, again, they do get the credibility and the authority. But I think it takes a longer time.

And to persist through that bias and this feeling that you have to outperform to be perceived in the same way, that takes a lot of resilience. And so, you know, for female leaders building credibility and authority, in addition to excellence, resilience, there's a few things I think they can do. One is to champion themselves. I think they need to be very clear on their accomplishments and be prepared to be vocal about them.

I think they need to get support. So whether that is from colleagues or their boss or a mentor or a coach, they need to feel less lonely as they go through that process. And the last is sponsorship. And sponsorship is, you know, a very powerful thing where you have another voice in the room singing your praises.

And in an environment where there is more scrutiny on women, more, you know, more criticism, having that positive voice in the room, I think can be really helpful in overcoming that. Yeah, that's amazing. That's such a interesting to hear it from someone of your experience and some great breakdowns. So

want to kind of now pivot a little bit, if I may, to talk about the young professionals who are listening. It could be a student, could be early careers, but I'm assuming then as you've kind of progressed, you've probably taken on teams and the teams have got progressively bigger and you've probably interacted with a number of graduates, for example, early career professionals. I just wondered if

then what's that, what stood out to you in the past? Like what's been an exceptional person that stood out and for what reason? Yeah. So I think it's three things I would say. The first is like someone who's just a sponge, someone who's there to learn. And one graduate comes to mind in particular when I think about this, about this trait.

And I hope he listens to this and because he'll know exactly. Yeah, you know, he'll know I'm talking about him. But this guy was always paying attention. And so, you know, we would have situations where maybe I had come over from the sales row onto the trading road to talk to the trader. I just got off the phone with the client, wanted to, you know, discuss the feedback I got, discuss pricing, whatever it is. And you know that feeling you have when you're being watched?

And like you suddenly just like look over and there's just like beady eyes peering at you. And this guy was just always paying attention to what was going on around him. And it was just, you know, there was such a sense that he was there to learn from everyone and every interaction. And he did. And he became exceptional at what he did. The second thing I would say is be humble where, you know, the graduates who are humble, I think are the best ones.

it's not that you shouldn't have confidence in your education and your ability, but it's that attitude about coming in and learning from everything and everyone and adding value to the team in any way that you can. The reality is that on day one on a trading floor, no matter what education you have, you cannot do a lot. It takes experience. And so, um,

You know, this isn't a culture that I love particularly, but I will use it as an example. A lot of time, juniors go out to get lunch for the desk. And, you know, a lot of juniors hate that, myself included. I didn't love it because it's like, well, I have a master's degree from one of the best universities in the world and now I'm getting a lunch. That's my job. But you have to realize that

Sometimes people cannot get off the desk. They're in the middle of a trade and they're hungry and they're hangry because they've not eaten. And the best thing that you can do actually is go get them lunch. And that is, you know, that is the value you can add. So I think not being too big for any task is important.

And the last one is, it's really difficult to describe, but it's something people talk about. And when, you know, a new graduate or joiner comes onto the desk, we'll say like, oh, they just get it or they just don't get it. They're not, they don't get it, you know, and what does get it mean?

It's kind of a savviness. And it's this concept that like the smartest people aren't always the best performers on a trading floor because it takes a savviness that you can't read in a book. And that's as well as I can describe it. And I'm sorry, because that's so vague and hard to comprehend. But yeah. Yeah.

No, I totally get what you're saying because when I worked on a desk, it was kind of real-time surveillance. So brokering that news over your floor to people like you, yeah, it was that – some of those traits that you were describing about what makes a trading floor unique, it was kind of all of that crystallizing as to sort of what the skills were that you need. And it wasn't always –

intellectual power yeah it was like vigilance and assertiveness at certain times and energy and yeah so I totally get that hangry I've got a new word in my vocabulary now going forward so if I take away anything thank you for

Something else that you and I spoke about before, which is something I'm really fascinated about. And it's mainly because I think there's such a heavy academic weighting into IQ. Yeah. And very rarely EQ. What I found is like...

the success if I've had any in my career has been almost entirely EQ driven rather than IQ driven, I would say about myself. And I guess it's, you don't really get taught this stuff. So I guess what's your definition of emotional intelligence and then how could a young person go about refining their EQ? Yeah. So how would I define emotional intelligence? First of all, I think it's related to that get it point.

But how do you define it? It's the ability to recognize and control one's own emotions and also build relationships effectively and with empathy, I would say. So that's how I would define emotional intelligence. Why it's important?

For me, although, as we've discussed, the business is becoming more and more digitized, it's still a relationship business. And like you said, you know, what's made you successful in your career? It's more EQ than IQ. Same. I think relationships are everything.

And, you know, if you think about being on a sales desk, for example, you have relationships with your sales colleagues, your traders, your analysts, your syndicate, your management, your colleagues across asset. And when you have strong relationships, you have a support network, kind of an army of support around you and goodwill you can draw upon when needed. If you don't have good relationships around you, you're an island, you're alone.

And, you know, for me, the former will always be a better performer than the latter. And I think if you break down a trade, this really comes to life. When I think about one trade, I might have to go speak to my analyst to understand the company better that I'm going to be talking about. I'll need to go speak to the trader to understand pricing and flows and get more context.

And then I'll call the client. I might have to speak to three people at the client, their analyst, their portfolio manager, and their trader. And then I'm going to bring that information back and I'm going to need to speak to our analyst and trader again. I might need to speak to syndicate. We might need to include trading management in a risk management decision. And we might need to include sales management in a client priority decision. So one trade could have as many as 10 human interactions and that is

is 10 relationships that give context to the buildup of that moment and how well you've built those relationships impact that moment. But it's also 10 opportunities to like read the room, to understand if this is a moment to push or not to push, to empathize with the person on the other side of you and the constraints that they're facing. And so 10 opportunities are

to bring your emotional intelligence to the situation to better the outcome of a trade. So that's why I think it's important. In terms of how it's developed, I don't really know. I think, honestly, what I've read about emotional intelligence is that a lot of it comes from childhood and how you're raised. So, you know, if you are a young adult approaching or entering the workforce and you feel like you don't have a high degree of emotional intelligence, I'm sure there's a lot of books you can read. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I think for me on that last point, it's probably more about not thinking that you need to assimilate exactly what you described, but just interacting with people in any setting. So maybe it's like going to the shop and speaking to the cashier, talking to your folks, talking to a friend who you cross on the street or the more you can.

basically interact with a variety of different people in a variety of different situations perhaps then that's a way of kind of working your muscle out right like like anything and the more you do it the better you get at it for sure yeah that makes sense so i have one last question in this this section but i kind of feel like perhaps we've already addressed it but i'll ask it nonetheless and it was more about when young women are entering the industry and going back to that idea about

how, I mean, you said it's different between a low level and a more managerial leadership level. But I guess when you're entering the marketplace, if you like, in your career, how do you be confident and assertive, but remain humble and authentic? How do you kind of get a temperature check on that? Do you need someone giving you feedback or do you have that pulse yourself or how does that work?

Well, maybe to continue on the emotional intelligence point, I think people who have high emotional intelligence probably have a strong pulse themselves. But to go deeper into your question, I will generalize massively. And I will go so far as to say I have rarely met a female junior that was not humble.

So I would say for women entering this industry, I would encourage them to focus on being authentic because I think confidence is a byproduct of authenticity. And I think assertiveness is a byproduct of confidence. And so I think authenticity is the key to unlocking it all. And in a corporate career, there's a lot to navigate. There's a lot of shoulds in terms of how you should act and how you should be and be.

And there's a lot of feedback that you receive as well and about, you know, how to advance in your career, what you're doing well, what you're not doing well. And you can take that all at face value and, you know, look at what people around you are doing and just try to emulate that. Or you can think about how that can be implemented in a way that's authentic to you. And I'll give you a really trivial example because this is something that's challenging for everyone. In my career, I was given the feedback that I needed to improve my network.

networking is a big topic, right? Everybody, you know, wants to improve their network. And I was told that I should go set up calls with senior people and have a coffee with them and tell them like who I am and what I do. And nothing felt more cringe worthy to me. Like that just felt horrible to me to do.

And so I avoided that feedback for a long time and I didn't improve my network because I felt like I, that's just not something I could do, set up these coffees. That wasn't authentic to me. And finally, someone said to me, well, what would feel authentic to you?

And then I realized that every year our bank did a charity bike ride. And a lot of senior people went on the charity bike ride. And I'm a very active athletic person. And I love physical challenges. And I thought that would be fun. And I was like, oh, well, why don't I do that? So I went out and bought a bike and I trained and I went on the charity bike ride. And not only did it turn out to be the one of the most exceptionally fun things I've ever done.

I made a lot of fantastic relationships so I networked in a way that was authentic to me and that made it effective and that gave me confidence and yeah you get the point yeah so interesting yeah and then for men I would say it's a bit different I mean from what I've observed men are quite good at being confident assertive and authentic naturally they do that very well and so I would just say to you know focus more effort on being humble again big generalization but

Okay. And then what we haven't talked about yet is different mindset shifts that happen through the natural course of not just your professional journey, but your individual personal journey. And, you know, there's one big thing that happens to women that doesn't happen to men if they choose to do so is they have children, for example. And so I just wanted to get a sense of those shifts.

when were they, how have they influenced you as an individual, your experiences, your decision making and your life overall? Yeah. Yeah, there's so many. And, you know, I think mindset is something that impacts you even intraday, like maybe on your way to work, you know, the tube stops and you're stuck on the tube and then you're late for work and

you get to work in your rush and you just feel like this is not going to be a good day well that mindset is not really going to help you make it a good day is it so you know there's so many points in every single day where um an improved mindship can mindset can be helpful but in thinking about this question i think it's really like you say those career and life transitions that came to mind

And so I think about going from being a graduate to a producer, for example. As a graduate, what's your job? Your job is to learn and support the desk in whatever way you can. You know, do some admin for the desk, go get lunches, like I mentioned before. And so the mindset is learn, learn, learn. Then you become a producer and it's like, well, no, it's not good enough to learn anymore. Like now you're expected to produce revenue for the bank. And so then the mindset needs to become...

So my production, my P&L is the most important thing. That is my value. That is what I deliver. And we have this expression in the industry, which is you're only as good as your last trade. So, you know, never resting on your laurels, always pushing forward to continue to maximize your budget number.

And then you may be moving to a management seat and suddenly it's not just enough to produce anymore. Now you need to train and develop your team and you need to be maybe strategic about how you approach business in your region. You need to build new and build and strengthen partnerships. And then you move from management to leadership and the distinction, it's not, you know,

by definition, but when I say management, I'm thinking, you know, managing smaller teams and then leadership is, you know, managing larger teams. And then from a leadership perspective, it's not just enough to train and develop and be strategic. From a leadership perspective, it's about team building and it's about upward management and visibility.

So those were some of the transitions I went through in my career. And like you say, outside of the workplace, the biggest by far transition I ever went through was from having no dependence to being a mother. And that's a big one. And that mindset is, you know, it's not just about my career anymore. Now it's about my career and my family. And so now the mindset I need to be in is one of balance.

And I would say one of the acceptance as well, because it's really hard when you're used to putting 100% of everything you have into your career, and then you realize you can't do that anymore. And so you feel like you're not doing well at work and you're not doing well at home. You're giving like 60% at both and it just doesn't feel good. And so the mindset of acceptance can be very helpful in accepting that that's where you're at at the moment and accepting that you're doing the best you can.

in accepting that your experience at work will guide you through and in accepting that your love at home will guide you through. Yeah. I was just thinking, like, how does this translate into your purpose now and what you're pursuing now in terms of professionally? Maybe you could just tell me a little bit about that. I love that question. Thank you. It's everything about what I'm pursuing now. Yeah.

So as I mentioned earlier, I'm an executive coach. And really, my mission is to make the corporate world a more equal and humane place by helping people survive and thrive in that environment. And these big transitions are, you know, key moments when people can get lost.

And, you know, working with people who care deeply about what they do, about their work, about their community, and helping them navigate these tricky moments in their careers and in their lives, I find deeply fulfilling. And so that's kind of, you know, some of the work that coaches do, is help people through those moments. And maybe...

before I get to the last one, another kind of curve ball for you is I know you're moving, you're currently in Paris and you're moving to Stockholm. I just wondered like, what's that been like? Cause you've gone from Vancouver to London, to Paris, to Stockholm. How has that affected you professionally and personally? How do you transition through those, those periods? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, yeah, I'll be very honest. I have very mixed feelings about the move to Stockholm. Um,

So London for me was my chosen home. You know, it's where I moved and where I lived there 12 years, where I really grew up and became an adult. And I love London. For me, London is where it's all happening. And I feel so inspired by the city every time I'm there. People are just doing cool things. There's just an energy. And my move to Paris was not by choice. That was a result of Brexit. My job was moved here.

And as a result, my husband moved here as well. But it was really for my job that we moved to Paris. And the first year, year and a half was really challenging. It was during COVID. So we were kind of trapped inside, working really hard with a very young child, unable to, you know, make connections, even see our colleagues. So it was very isolating.

But we've been here four years now and we absolutely love it. After that first year, we've really built a life here. It's a fantastic city. Our son is very happy here.

So it's been great. The Stockholm move is really a family move. Now that I'm not working in financial markets anymore, executive coaching, most of that is done online. So really, I can be anywhere. And we were in Paris for my career rather than my husband's. And he travels to the Nordics every single week, several days a week. So we're in a position where our family is not together anymore.

And, you know, if I had it my way, I would move back to London. But the fact of the matter is I'm in a place in my life where I have to make different decisions. And it's not just me I'm thinking about. And the right decision is to move to Stockholm because then our family is together more and that's the priority.

So I definitely had some fear about the move in terms of how will this impact my business. I expect most of my clients to be in London because that's where my network is. And, you know, why would someone hire this chick sitting in Stockholm? But, you know, I spoke to a friend, a good friend in London who has a coach who's in the UK. And I said, have you guys ever met in person? She's like, no. I was like, all right, I'm good.

you know people in the same country don't even meet in person in this profession and I can travel back to London as often as I want um for the sake of my business um but yeah for now our hub will will be Stockholm and the mindset I'm taking into that is to just make the most of it and give it a shot and give it the best shot possible to succeed and if it doesn't like it doesn't have to be forever well we'll we'll do something different yeah oh thank you for for sharing and

Definitely now that you've heard from Hayley, LinkedIn, connect. I'm sure lots of young people want to build their network and there's been such incredible, the way you position, I think a lot of the things that you've been saying in the kind of the multi-point structure is so like practical.

Love that. But maybe one last question, which I asked kind of for all these guests in this series, which is about advice that you would give essentially to your early career self. Now you look back in retrospect. Yeah. What would you say? There are so many things. So the first one is quite practical. Again, it's about your network. And I would just say retain your relationships.

So one of the things that I feel like I didn't do well in my career is when people left our organization, I didn't retain that relationship. And I have a regret about that. And it's really valuable to have relationships outside of your organization. It gives you context, kind of the color on the ground in terms of, you know, how other banks are performing. What is it like to work there? And it's also enriching just to have those positive relationships in your life.

So retain your relationships. The other thing I would say is carve out some time for you. This is a business that wants results all the time. And that's cool. And that's really fun. But no one will tell you that it's okay to invest in yourself. And so I would say take even if it's 30 minutes a week, reflect on your own achievements, set some goals, plan, and just give yourself a little bit of space to think.

A third one is be true to yourself. I think this applies to so many situations. You know, you've had guests on your podcast talking about what it's like to come from a working class background. And, you know, what I've admired about those guests is that rather than pretend like that's not the case or try to hide it, they've embraced it and realized that that is their own personal uniqueness. And they have...

they have figured out how to leverage that and use it to their advantage. And I think that that goes for everyone. Figure out, you know, be true to yourself, figure out your own personal uniqueness and brilliance and then leverage it. And then lastly, it's dare.

I think this business can be scary. You can be out of your comfort zone every single day. And so you have to dare to do, you have to dare to be courageous. You have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone. You have to be afraid a lot and do it anyway.

And then when you do those things, give yourself credit for that and tap yourself on the back for being very bold and brave for doing things that make you uncomfortable. Well, that was an awesome finish. And we'll wrap it there. But Hayley, thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

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