#114 Noreena Hertz: The Crisis of Loneliness
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One of the positives that has come out of our shared COVID experience is that we are talking about loneliness much more today than we were in the past. And we should be because the scale at which it's affecting us is huge.

rich, poor, young, old, male, female, are lonely people. And of course, the East, as well as the West, has been becoming more neoliberal, more individualism, more loneliness, more neoliberalism, more loneliness. And the West doesn't have the monopoly now on either.

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Today I'm speaking with Norena Hertz, who's been named by Vogue as one of the most inspiring women and called by other outlets one of the world's leading thinkers. This episode is about coming together in a world that's falling apart. We talk about loneliness, what it is, how to recognize it, the health implications, the shame around admitting it, and what we can do about it for ourselves, our friends, our community, and our kids. It's time to listen and learn. ♪

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How is it you came to write about loneliness? Yes, it wasn't the most obvious topic for an economist. But what happened was I was teaching at university. I'd been teaching for many years. And I was very struck by the fact that an increasing number of my students were coming into my office in office hours and confiding in me how lonely and isolated they felt. And this was a new phenomenon. I'd been teaching at university for over a decade, and I hadn't seen this before.

And the other thing I'd noticed with my students was when I was assigning them group assignments,

increasing numbers seem to find it quite challenging to interact in person, face to face. And I actually raised it with a colleague who runs one of America's most prestigious universities. And he said to me, we're seeing exactly the same thing here. In fact, it's so bad here that we're having to run remedial how to read a face in real life classes for our incoming students because they're spending so much time on their screens.

that when they're face to face, they're finding it really hard to interact. So I thought, gosh, this is interesting. At the same time in my academic research, I was looking at the rise of right wing populism across the globe. And I wanted to better understand the drivers for it.

economic drivers for sure, but also whether emotional drivers for it as well. And as I started interviewing right-wing populist voters in France, in Germany, Trump voters in the United States, what came across time and time again from their stories was how lonely and disconnected they felt. So I thought, okay, loneliness playing out in this political sense too. And

And then the third thing, and these things were all happening at roughly the same time, which was kind of like the stars aligning, telling me I had to do this book. The third reason was that I had bought an Alexa, and I apologize in advance if you have one and it's gone off now. And I noticed how attached I was increasingly feeling to my Alexa. And it got me thinking about...

what I've come to call the loneliness economy, and a whole economy that has sprung up to alleviate the loneliness that we feel, our collective state of disconnection and isolation. And it was those three things really together. My students being so lonely, because when we think of loneliness, we often think of it being something that's mainly the elderly, but three in five 18 to 34-year-olds feel lonely often or always. Three in five. One in five millennials

don't have a single friend. So loneliness, a real epidemic amongst the young. The rise of right-wing populism making me kind of think about how loneliness was shaping our world, not only our interactions. And then I was really intrigued by the fact that the market had stepped in or was stepping in to address this. And what did that mean? You can also be lonely in a marriage or in a relationship. What's the difference between being alone and sort of feeling alone?

That's a great question. And you're absolutely right. There's probably nothing more lonely than being in a bad relationship or a bad marriage. Being lonely has a sense of powerlessness attached to it. It's a sense you lack agency. It's about wanting to feel connected and

Typically, we think of loneliness as being wanting to feel connected to friends and family, but I actually broaden it to include also feeling, wanting to feel connected to your government, wanting to feel connected to your employer. So loneliness for me is about feeling connected.

disconnected in a much more existential state about feeling that you're not cared for, that you're not supported, whether it is by those closest to you, but also whether it's by your government or your workplace. And is it technology that's causing us to feel lonely? Or do we go to technology because we feel lonely and we seek out sort of technology as a way to feel connected or find people like us?

So when I started my research, I was agnostic about the role that technology and social media played in today's loneliness crisis. But the more I dug into the academic literature, and there's by now, of course, a vast body of this, the more I came to believe that technology was net a problem here. Up until about a year and a half ago, it was hard to actually establish definitively whether it was

It was just correlation that people who were lonely were spending more time, for example, on social media. Or was it causative? And there was a landmark study that was carried out by Stanford University about a year and a half ago, a real gold standard of a study where they had 3,000 participants, 1,500 in a control group, and the other 1,500 were expressly charged to go off, in this case, Facebook.

The results were very clear. The group who went off Facebook for two months were significantly less lonely, significantly happier, and interestingly spent significantly more time doing things in person with friends and family. So it wasn't that they just migrated onto other platforms. And since then, there have been a few other studies which have supported this, showing that social media actually

actually makes people feel more lonely. But even our devices play a part here. We've all done it. We've all been in a room with our partner or our family, heads in our phones, not even really hearing them, not present with them. And there was a study where they put a smartphone on a table between a couple, even when the smartphone was turned off, even when neither person was touching the smartphone,

the couple felt less empathetic towards each other and less connected. And so there's lots and lots of research on why technology net is making us feel less connected to each other. Although I'm actually quite optimistic about the role that

social robots and virtual assistants will be able to play in alleviating loneliness. And in my research, I've kind of looked into this a lot. And one example is an Israeli startup. It's a company called Eliq. They have a social robot specifically designed for elderly people. And during the heights of the COVID pandemic, they shipped thousands of these Eliq robots to

to the United States and the stories of people who hold up isolating, self-isolated, saying,

I would be feeling so lonely if I hadn't found a companion in my LEQ. And of course, we know from Japan, where this has been going on for much longer, that people can really become very attached to their robot friends and carers, even knitting bonnets for them in elderly people's homes. So it doesn't mean that we need to have a relationship with people to feel less lonely. Go deeper on that. So that's...

A very interesting and important question. How I see it is that on an individual level, social robots, technology can help alleviate our loneliness for sure. But what does this mean for society? Because if we choose to hang out with our Alexa rather than Alexis,

If we choose to spend time with Ellie Q rather than Ellie Ann, we're not going to invest in our human. The danger is we won't invest in our human relationships. Moreover, the danger is that we'll get very used to having relationships with

essentially servants who do what we want and laugh at our jokes and are much more submissive than any human relationship would be. So whilst I do see it as a cure for loneliness at an individual level, I do worry about the ramifications for society should we wish to migrate our friendships to social robots and virtual assistants.

I want to come later to a little bit of the implications of loneliness on society with or without robots. But it seems like one of the major problems with loneliness is that there's so much shame in admitting that you're lonely. Why is that? There is a stigma. It's, I'd say, especially nowadays when popularity, when the market for popularity has never been more visible. And again,

social media clearly playing a role in that it's, you know, you scroll on your feeds and everyone looks like they have more friends than you and is having more fun than you and is more popular than you. And so it's easy to believe that others are more popular than you. And there's something that feels quite shameful about feeling like no one wants to be your friend. So I think there is a stigma. I do think something

One of the positives that has come out of our shared COVID experience is that we are talking about loneliness much more today than we were in the past. And we should be because the scale at which it's affecting us collectively is huge.

rich, poor, young, old, male, female, are lonely people. Is this a Western, Eastern culture thing too? Like, does this transfer across all these cultures? It does, even though the more individualistic society is the lonelier it's likely to be. And also,

Also, I argue that the neoliberal capitalist mindset, so the dog-eat-dog, me-first, self-interest-first mindset is also inimicable, ultimately, to a world in which we feel connected to each other and feel part of a community. And, of course,

The East, as well as the West, has been becoming more neoliberal and more individualistic. You even see this in pop song lyrics. So there were studies done with pop song lyrics, which show that in general, in the West, pop song lyrics from the 1980s to today have become increasingly individualistic with words like we, us and our supplanted by words like I, me and my.

And this is even going on in China, fascinatingly, where you're seeing a lag, but you're also seeing this trend. So more individualism, more loneliness, more neoliberalism, more loneliness. And the West doesn't have the monopoly now on either. That's really interesting to think about how this will play out. And I mean, we can anticipate some of the consequences. I just want to go back a little bit more to the individual and acknowledging loneliness. And I was talking to a friend about this and saying,

She said simple things like filling out a form made her feel lonely when it asked, who's your emergency contact or who's your next of kin? What's your response to that? I think we have come to see the family as family.

as the all-important support network in our lives. And I would argue that we really need to redefine support networks for the 21st century so that friendship networks are viewed as meaningful as ones where we have blood ties. And that ideally we should be moving to...

to a whole system whereby we're able to invest in our friendships as much as in our blood relationships. And, you know, wouldn't it be fantastic if at work people didn't just have

Mothers and fathers increasingly now getting paternity and maternity pay when they have children, but also if people were allowed not only to take off paid time to care for an elderly relative, and some companies are pioneering this,

But also if you were able to take time off to help out a friend in need, help out a neighbour, do something for your community. So I think part of our challenge and part of the reason your friend probably felt so lonely is because you don't really think, oh, I'll put down my friend as a next of kin or as my emergency contact. And yet...

And yet, how great would it be if we could? But of course, in order to do that, it's not just about companies doing things. It's also about us prioritizing our friendships more ourselves. And it's hard to do that because many of us are so busy working all hours, so overstretched and busy.

Care takes time to nurture. Relationships don't just happen on the fly. So we're partly culpable, of course, too. I like to think it is, you know, part of real wealth is actually the people around you, the good company that you have around you. You can buy company, but you can't buy good company. And to have good company, you have to invest in it. You have to constantly water the grass between you and them.

And I think that it's increasingly hard to do that when we feel overstimulated, over busy, we don't reach out. And the longer you don't reach out, the more it becomes harder to reach out. And then it just sort of spirals from there. Definitely. I was just going to build upon that because I so agree with what you're saying. And it's also about nurturing our local environments and our local neighborhoods. And this is something that

really, as I was researching my book, it became increasingly clear to me that my kind of conception of myself as a global citizen, you know, as the kind of person who was on a plane every couple of weeks and

flying around the world and quite proud really of how unrooted I was. As I was writing this book and researching it, I came to realise the importance of our local neighbourhoods in a way that I hadn't really realised before. And of course, being forced to spend most of a big chunk of time due to COVID in my local neighbourhood, I came to realise this even more. And

And so in the same way that we have to nurture our friendships, I think we have to nurture our local neighbourhoods too. And that's really important moving forward, whether it's really committing to shop at our local shops and trading off that convenience that, yes, we can get from online retailers for the community that needs nurturing. It's about

showing up at community events if they exist in our areas or if not actually initiating them it's about taking that pause as you're walking down the street and actually saying hello to the person who's walking their dog and not just blinkered headphones on rushing by

So, so much we can do once we're conscious of it. And it also pays off. There's research that shows that even a 30-second exchange in a cafe with the server

can make a huge difference to how connected you feel to others and how lonely you feel or otherwise. So it doesn't only have to be deep interactions with your friends. Even these, what I call micro exchanges can make a huge difference to how we feel. I think that's a really important aspect to the mosaic of life that many of us don't appreciate until it's, it's too late. It's one of those things where you, you develop this hindsight that you should have been more involved in your community and

But you don't, it's really hard to see that in foresight, but it is a, it's an aspect that connects you to something larger than yourself. And I think that's part of what, what we miss these days in a non-political way is just being connected to our neighbors, our community, being a part of that community together. Yes. And virtual, you know, we've been doing our best to do this virtually, of course. And yet I think after months of that being the only way we often could connect to

I think there is a collective sense that it's not as good.

It's not as good as the face-to-face, in-person interactions. And even though it's wonderful that I'm in London and you're in Ottawa and we're speaking and chatting and even looking at each other on screen as we're doing so, it's not the same as if we were in the room together. Is there a particular way that we can use technology to better connect with people that we're not doing or exploring? Part of the challenge actually is the latency effect of kind of slow internet access

and as technology gets better,

I think some of the jerkiness of our Zoom calls and the, you know, which just kind of doesn't help us, our brains be able to synchronise with each other, which they need to do in order to feel empathetic and connected. So some of it is to do with just really something as simple as our internet connection speed. But I think the way that...

the way our screens are currently designed and if there are people listening who are in this space, maybe you can fix this. We don't look at each other when we're on Zoom typically. Our eye lines aren't looking at each other because of the way it's set up. And in fact, all too often we're distracted by the pictures of ourselves on our screen, turning our interaction as a kind of quasi-performative one in which we're actor-stroke-like.

participants all at once. And so I think there are some ways maybe that that technology could be tweaked. And I think also when we have choices in a world in which our choice of how we interact has been seriously constrained over in recent times, but where we have choices, I think it's also about remembering

Do choose to meet someone face to face if you can and if it's in a socially distanced way and if that's possible, you make that choice because it's actually really good. What are some of the health implications on the individual? I noticed in your book, I think you said that it's like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or a week or something, you know, the equivalent impact on your overall health. Talk to me about some of the other health implications and why that is.

So we think of loneliness often as being something that affects our mental health only. And of course it does. Loneliness is linked to increased levels of anxiety, depression, stress. But what's less known is that it also really seriously affects our physical health. And why this is, is because when we're lonely, what happens is essentially we go into fight or flight mode.

Our blood pressure goes up, our levels of cortisol, our stress levels in our body go up, our cholesterol levels also go up. And it's a reaction which is a kind of evolutionary reaction, which absolutely makes sense in that it's all these physiological features telling us get connected, get

Go to a tribe, find a tribe, hunt with others, gather with others. It's all these solid evolutionary reasons. The trouble is when we don't act upon them, we remain in this state of high alert for a sustained period. It's like if you were driving your car, put it in first gear.

gear that's the right thing to do initially but stay in first gear for a long time well that's terrible for your engine and that's what protracted periods of loneliness are doing to us and that's why loneliness it turns out is if you're lonely 30% more likely to die prematurely than if you're not and what's worrying is that even relatively short periods of loneliness

So even periods of loneliness under two years, researchers have found can significantly increase your likelihood of an early death. That's so interesting. The way that you phrased that made me think of something I come across. I'm sure most people come across this online sort of thing where single people are more likely to die earlier than married people, but maybe it's really not single versus married. And it's really just how lonely your, your perception of loneliness is.

It is, you can be single and have a huge friend network and not feel lonely at all. And you can be married and feel lonely in that marriage. And I wonder if you have any comments on that. Yeah, I think, I think that's, I think that absolutely makes sense. And I,

The research on people who live on their own does show that if you live on your own, of course, not everyone who lives on their own is lonely. I lived on my own for many years and had a great network and strong support system. But yeah,

People who live on their own, on average, are 10% likelier to feel lonely than people who don't. So I think bad relationships and living on your own, you're more likely to feel lonely. But of course, in either case, you can find companionship and connection through friendships, through

through your workplace, through membership of a trade union, membership of a church. I mean, part of the reason, of course, we're lonelier today than we were in the past is just that we do less with each other, less than we did before. So we do go to church less. We are less likely to be members of a trade union. We go less to parent-teacher association meetings, all these things that typically brought us together.

and no longer do. How does it affect our role in democracy and maybe the trade-off between self-interest and community? So I think democracy is affected on a number of fronts by the growing loneliness crisis.

Firstly, these micro exchanges, these interactions we have with people who are different to us, people of different socioeconomic groups, the kind of interactions we'd have day to day, the kind of interactions we'd have, of course, in shared public spaces, public parks, public libraries. We're having increasingly less of those interactions.

And those exchanges don't only make us feel less lonely, but I argue that there are also ways that we practice democracy. Even if you're in the supermarket wheeling your trolley rather than ordering your food online, even that interaction in the supermarket, it's forcing you to negotiate moving the trolley, pass by somebody, move around them. These are actually important skills, skills about communication.

enabling other people to get on with their lives, skills around respecting other people, skills around recognising other people. And so one of the reasons that

democracy is being challenged in today's lonely century is because we're just doing less with other people, especially with people who are different to us. And so we're not practicing also things like respecting others' ideas when they're different to ours. Really important for inclusive democracy, of course. But the other reason why loneliness is threatening democracy is because of the link between

and populism that my research has kind of made really clear. Populism, whether on the right or on the left, in increasing numbers, people are seeking, feeling lonely, feeling marginalized, feeling disconnected from each other, but also from the government, craving connection and finding this community in populist politicians, politicians

many of whose tenants are antithetical to an inclusive democracy. One of the things you said about going through the grocery store that sort of struck me is that we're just increasingly insulated from people who are different than us.

So if we're in our house and we're ordering food and it's delivered, we don't see the people making the food. We don't have to walk by anybody who might be less fortunate than us or homeless or begging for money or living in a different circumstance than us. We effectively are insulating ourselves in these gated communities.

And the more, the less socioeconomically diverse, the less diverse in every sort of way, less cognitively diverse, less ethnically diverse these communities are, the more that we see people that are sort of just like us. And I think that that's really dangerous for not only not empathizing with the rest of the world, but not empathizing with our community and not being in touch with what's going on in the world.

Absolutely. And I have a whole chapter in my book which looks at the architecture of exclusion, really at the physical architecture of exclusion, because some of these things that you're talking about, the fact that we don't see other people, it's because cities are increasingly designed to keep those deemed undesirable out.

we've seen a real rise in what we might call hostile architecture in recent years benches for example designed so that they're sloping um so that the skateboarding kid can't

can't skateboard on them and the homeless person can't sleep on them. But of course, also the place then that the elderly woman can't sit on and pass the day chatting to passers-by in the street. There's even cases in shopping malls in the United Kingdom where in order to keep out undesirable youths,

They emit a very high sonic pitch sound, which only young people can hear, a very unpleasant sound. Yes, there's something that happens to the cells in our ears, I learnt, as we get older, which means that there are very high-pitched horrible sounds that only young people can learn. They also put special lights in the bathrooms of these malls, which expose teenage acne so that young people won't want to spend time there.

There is a danger that we are really creating, and of course, gated communities, increasing numbers of people

exclusive communities, even ones that are ostensibly set up to have some elements of social housing where those on low income literally excluded examples in my books from the playgrounds, from their kids playing in the playgrounds that the richer inhabitants have. Oh, wow. And if we don't connect with people who are different to us, if we don't spend time with people who are different to us,

of course we're going to feel, be increasingly siloed as a society and of course we're going to be increasingly unable to bridge across communities, which is why one of the things I'm really passionate about and talk about a lot in the book is

ways that we can come together as a society and as individuals. And there are so many inspiring things out there in the world that we can replicate. There was a wonderful initiative done by a German newspaper, Die Zeit. Journalists got very concerned about the growing political divide in Germany, the growing sense of fragmentation. And they decided to initiate this scheme called Deutschland spricht, Germany speaks, where journalists

It was like a political Tinder was what they called it in-house, where basically they matched up people with radically different political points of view. So people who were really anti-Europe met up with people who were really pro, they matched with people who were pro-Europe, people who were anti-immigrants, they matched with asylum seekers.

Of course, it was an opt-in scheme, but basically thousands of people across Germany took part and they met up all across the country. All they had to do was agree to meet up for two hours in a public space, in cafes, in bars, in beer gardens. What was remarkable, after just two hours, people's conceptions of each other radically changed.

They saw this person who they previously had deemed to be very different to them to be actually much more similar to them than they realised. They were aware of all their shared concerns, interests, often shared thoughts around family. They said that they'd be much more willing to include a person like that in their social group. That was after just two hours. Other kind of bigger schemes that have taken place, government-led, have led to kind of mobilising

more material, longer lasting, more entrenched results, whether it's Rwanda's practice of Umaganda, where in order to heal the terrible scars after the terrible genocides, the government initiated a program where once a month,

Everyone has to come together in the community and volunteer, do voluntary work together. And it's a process that is seen as having played a huge role in reconciling the society. In France, President Macron has trialled civic service for community service for young people. He did a pilot project, 15 to 16 year old boys, they lived together together.

worked together, did voluntary work together, had to negotiate who's going to do the meals, who's going to take out the trash, all these things. People from vastly different socioeconomic groups made a huge difference to how they felt about each other when the project ended. There are so many ways we could engineer

more interactions between people of different trusts. But so important is, of course, that we protect these shared public spaces where people can come together, like libraries, like community centres, like youth clubs, places that really since 2008 across the globe have seen their funds slashed dramatically.

We're never going to find ground to share if there aren't physical spaces that we share. That's a great way to sort of connect us perhaps to people that are different from us and let us see the full spectrum of society that we are just a part of, a speck in, if you will. But what can we do about loneliness? What are the remedies for loneliness?

on the individual level, and then maybe from a policy perspective that we can choose to explore for addressing that? Start with putting our phones down more, be more present with those around us. So when we're actually physically with someone, actually be with them, be in the moment with them.

support our local communities, our local environments. If there is a local library, even if you can afford to buy your own books, show up every so often at your local library event. Be part of your community.

We can value kindness more in each other. Traits like competitiveness, determination, focus, these are the kind of traits that have really been valorized in recent years. But when you think about traits like kindness, caring for each other, being more collaborative, these aren't really traits that we've

Really respected, perhaps even in each other. So really recognizing the importance of these, valuing these more, I think is so important, whether it is in your coworker, your friend, your partner, your employee.

I think we can also do a much better job at actively reaching out to those in our own networks who we think might be lonely. Really think about it, especially in these more challenging times. Is there someone who might be feeling lonely? Prioritise them on your call sheet. Pick up the phone, do give them a call or at least a text or

Volunteering is a way that we actually can feel less lonely ourselves. So it's a win-win. We can help others, but also feel less lonely. And it's got a great health benefit. Research has shown that people who never do anything for others

die earlier than people who do help others. So health benefit too. So lots that we can do as individuals. Lots that employers can do too, for sure. As they think about how to rebuild the office post-pandemic, I mean, I think putting alleviation of loneliness is really critical. 40% of office workers feel lonely at work. One in five

adults in the US say that they don't have a single friend at work. This comes not only at a toll to their own mental health and physical health, but it also has a huge business cost. We know that lonely employees are much less productive, much less engaged, much more likely to leave a company. So really put alleviating loneliness at the heart of a corporate mission moving forward. And there's so many easy things that companies can do from

Getting people to eat together once we're back in the office, from ditching the open plan office once we're back in the office. Surprisingly, open plan offices actually make people really socially withdraw. Maybe not that surprisingly. So panopticon, so noisy. People tend to withdraw, communicate more on email. And a lot the governments can do, too, whether it is about investing in the infrastructure of community or,

whether it is about putting alleviation of loneliness actually

at the heart of their economic mission, as Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister of New Zealand has done. She's put alleviating loneliness and other metrics of well-being right at the heart of the country's economic policy. So not only looking at metrics relating to GDP, but also to alleviation of loneliness and enhanced well-being. And also helping us be able to care more for others, whether it is our friends,

or our family helping us to be able to do that, to be able to take out the time to do that. That's really important too. What are the signs as a parent that your, your teen or your child might be feeling lonely? And then what are the steps that you can do to help them? So,

It's important, firstly, to recognise that there's a really good chance that your child is feeling lonely because we know that the numbers are over 60% of young people are feeling lonely pretty much all of the time. We also know that periods of lockdown and isolation have exacerbated this, particularly amongst the young.

Think about their social media usage. This is one of the interesting insights that a head teacher brought to my attention. He said, look, it wasn't that children weren't excluded in the past. They were. But the difference is now that whereas in the past an adult in a child's life

could typically see this was going on. So you would see your child wasn't being invited out with others. So a teacher would see a child not being asked to sit with others at school today because so much of their social lives is happening on their phones, on their screens. The adult in their lives often isn't aware that they're not being invited to things and being excluded. So be aware that this might be going on. And there are

all terrible terribly poignant stories of from teenagers who I interviewed one Peter a 14 year old boy told me about how he would post um on Instagram and then wait wait wait hoping for somebody to like his post and when they didn't asking himself what am I doing wrong and saying how invisible he felt or Claudia whose friends had told her that they weren't going out after school and then she was scrolling on her feeds and saw them going out without her

or another where a parent told me that their kid came home and everyone was sitting in the times when everyone was still sitting round with each other, but they were sitting round together and everyone's phones pinged with a WhatsApp message.

inviting them to something and their kid's phone didn't ping and she had to pretend that it had pinged. So I think being aware of that, having these conversations with them, de-stigmatizing loneliness within your own household, and then encouraging your kid to

to find a community around the things that they're genuinely interested in and passionate about. This isn't only kids who should do this. We all should be doing it. I mean, I, for example, I'm part of a weekly improv group.

So every week, and it's something I try and ring fence in my diary, however busy I am, however kind of much work's going on, I try and ring fence this two hours where I'm going to meet up with my improv friends. During the pandemic, we migrated to Zoom, not as good, but better than nothing for sure. So, you know, does your kid have something they're interested in, whether it's music or drama or filmmaking or whatever?

chess or reading and they could find some like-minded people to interact with too. I'm curious as to what lessons you've learned from improv that you've applied outside of your classes. So one of the very basic rules in improv is yes and so you build upon a scene so if you say to me I

Hi, Noreena, here's a present for you. I would say, yes, and it's a box of balloons. And you would say, yes, it's a box of balloons with sprinkles on them. So you're always building upon it. So that's just kind of it's a pretty good lesson for conversations afterwards.

for interactions, for group discussions. I think improv is also for me really about being in the moment. It's probably the most Zen thing I can do, I do in my life. It's most mindful because your attention is really focused on the other person. It really helps you be a better listener and be in the moment. So I think improv helps me listen better and also be more now. Well, thank you very much, Serena. This has been a great conversation.

I've really enjoyed it. You're very welcome to join my improv group virtually whilst we're doing it. I might take you up on that. Thank you. Hey, one more thing before we say goodbye. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Farnham Street.

I want to make this the best podcast you listen to, and I'd love to get your feedback. If you have comments, ideas for future shows or topics, or just feedback in general, you can email me at shane at fs.blog or follow me on Twitter at shaneaperish. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog slash podcast. If you want a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe and join our learning community.

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