Building Innovation Hubs: The UK & Beyond
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The olympics just standard, but that doesn't mean are covered chose because building a strong nationwide thick program is a bit like trying to build a strong innovative help in that you know what ingredients ts might help, but it's not always clear what moves the middle.

And just like a method s where countries double down on their best boards, like the approximate fifty million dollar grand system, the team U R I allocates mortgage of sticks, sever handball countries also makes strategic decisions on where they invest, hoping to create thriving innovation hopes. So in today's epo de, we directed attention to the U. K.

And try to break down which ingredients matter most. This episode was originally published on our sister podcast, web three, with a extensive. So if you're excited about the next generation of the internet web with a sixteen six, whereever you get your podcast for now over the zonal to properly introduce this episode gas.

Welcome to web three with a six and cy. I'm sono tuxes. And today's episode is all about innovation around the world at birthday systems and at the people level.

So we discuss not only what does and doesn't work in making certain places become hubs of innovation and economic growth, but also discuss what makes entrepreneurial talent the nature of ambition and helping people find their path, and more broadly, navigating risk, reward and dynamic in different regions, including london in europe. My special guest is mat clive d, who is played an important role in the london entrepreneur ecosystem. I actually had met on the O G A six and podcast back in twenty fifteen.

So we also discuss what's change since to now, as well as new ways of funding, breakthrough R N D tech trends, s of interest and more. For more context, math is a chair of entrepreneurs, which he co founded with Alice pending over a decade ago. He's also the chair of the u.

K's advances research and invention agency, or aria. And before this recorded map was also the prime minister's representative for the A. I.

Safety summer, which he held organized at blood gey park, the historic home of computing in the U. K. And then after this episode was recorded, that was appointed by the U.

K. Secretary of science to deliver an A I opportunities action plan to the U. K. government. This was just announce a few days ago.

Anyway, it's all fitting and exciting because we recorded this episode lie from Andrea horror, which is the first international office in london, which we open late last. For more on our efforts and other content from and about there, go to a six and cy crypto dotcom slashed U. K.

As a reminder, none of the following should be taken as investment, legal, business or tax advice. Please see a six and y dot com flashed disclosures for more important information, including a linked to a list of our investments. Now onto the episode.

Matt.

welcome is great to be here to be back. You just say .

yes is about to say you we did a podcast together. You were on the podcast on dar last run road show, which is twenty fifteen, and you were one of that was a very first time we met in person. We've been going .

a while now and probably talk about how the ecosystems grown, but are initial theses, which we know remain very dedicated to us, that the world is missing out on some of its best founders in value if you are small. So obviously, the world star company right in europe, that's still not sure. If you go around oxo, cambridge or imperial court, these great universities and you say, like, you know, what are the most is most ambitious people want to do that more and more is on the agenda. But it's still probably banking consulting, you know, big companies.

I don't know how you describe ef for entrepreneurs.

We call those the thing we've IT on after long the of generation is that we're a talent investor. We invest in people before they have companies and help them go through that like zero to one journey. We're taking people who pull on the basis of who they are because .

we want to make a Better on to invest this and other. Any action creatives, anyone would say that your job is investing .

in talent, and that's an art, not a little inspiration .

spred by Michael over A I I early on.

we have a sort of similar of you that almost like the world's most towns and business people need agents. I am how we frame.

It's really fascinating because you said you're not an agency, neither are we because actually the model obviously was talent focus, but IT was more about on that work and network of new works, which is how we used to think a little bit. I mean, I don't know if that was ever formally how IT was describe, but at least for my perspective, I used to think of asic and see when I joined in the early days or just now a decade ago as a network of network and and that was where the of its came in, which is how you sort of you know kind of give back, like continue cultivating talent. So in that way, growing people even before they want the thing, even helping them .

transaction. Our team's job is to go out and find extraordinary people. Yeah, who is still figuring? I want to do with their lives.

My family, Alice and I, we got our reas and consoles with kinzer. And in many ways, that was a really great experience. But like if you said, like why did you end up there? IT wasn't six years old.

I was running around the kitchen like 妈咪妈咪 i wanted be a management just like IT was the path IT was what people did in whatever that was two thousand eight when I graduate IT。 And see you know of view was if you if you really want to move the needle, unlike increasing the supply of great founders, you can't wait for them to figure out that. Like that's the obvious path.

You have to create a path. One of the things that we think about lot is like the nature of ambition and how is very culturally determined. Or let's talk about that. What I know that is I know it's not like all ambitious people have the same, a vision of how to realize their ambition.

You know.

so and so would be the crazier thing in the world. I try and people around for us, you know, we have quite big team now around the world. And they go, they find people who clearly extraordinary ted, but at the very start that they typically folks on people earlier in their career sometimes like, you know, either you, us to you or equivalent. And you know that job, yes, obviously, is to how to think about the tops. And you know, if they want to build to stop, bring them into our community and help them do that, but their job is not to push where is not right, is to genuinely be almost like a career councillor, like like an actual, like someone whose interest is shared with the with the person. And so, you know, one of things that we believe, I you, if you like, our theory of changes, that if you can like actually in a vine, at upon what people trying to figure out, like how to have this town, how I maximize my impact in the world, and you can show this path of entrepreneurship, and sure, what's possible, then actually, that will increase the supply of great founder and then great companies in the world.

So I do want to pick up a little bit on truth threads, one about this, what you said about the nature of ambitions, something you think about a lot, but also what you said about this culturally determined aspect of IT. And that, to me, suggest some of the structural context, the surrounding context, that supports entrepreneurship beyond the individual. So let's put IT up into the people and then the surrounding kind of contacts of ecosystem.

Yeah so on the surrounding context of ecosystem, one kind of obvious thing, this is something we talked about a lot. And the early day in the exigency podcast, I recorded a lot of episodes with like iranian entrepreneurs and various people around the world. And IT was really fascinating how the risk tolerance is very different culturally in different region. And one thing that I think is, is so cliche, but IT is true for a reason, is unique about silicon di is there is a tremendous tolerance. I do I say the word failure because I hate wearing into feel you're porn I think that's the wrong waited it's .

like actually works .

of people like feel you're friday and feel your this like yes, of course Normalize talking about IT, recovering, repairing but don't like global failure forgot sag, everyone wants to succeeded. But what's really interesting about IT is that there is like this forgiveness and recovery and resilience that were uncertain cultural regions. In areas there's almost like a punishment or a feeling of self hatred. If you don't succeed, this is even beyond .

individual level. So I think these two things, one is attitude to failure. But I think this was like what is valued? Like what is the stem? And you know, I think the really special thing about silicon valley is this this idea that if you tell if you're a insulin value, you tell some your founder that immediately has a set of connotations that most exclusive possible is very given.

People know what mean. People can read that as a sign that you are ambitious. That's right. When we saw on one of us do is this slight sense that if you said you were found that those information for you are unemployed.

So actually, I I think the cultural meaning of entrepreneurs is one of the bigger source of leverage you have. Just like making IT like this is thing that more capable, ambitious people do. Yeah, it's a vehicle for changing the world.

It's it's such a powful idea. And you know, to give you a really kind of example because I think like you from the U. K.

In the U. S, I know similar enough systems that IT that the real resonate. But know the first international office we open was in singapore. And in singapore, the number one area path, the most cious people is to go a little one. As a result, the government singapore is probably one of the .

most effective and efficient that's so interesting. I didn't know that yeah is actually the opposite .

in so many other places I just been serving in government. Actually, the people have been amazing. I would say as a result, the cultural value of friendship in singapore is just is just being very I think it's been hard of that to sort of I create the sense that like if you say you're a bounder, you're doing something that as like gift ma as prestigious as your friends that have gone off to be.

Yes, you know, we should talk for a second about why entrepreneurship for a minute because IT seems I got obviously like what we talking about, this is a show starcus o start up cus culture. But actually it's not obvious. I mean, if I telling a policy, but I think they know this.

But like the reality is like starting ves represent innovation. They are engine of growth. They create jobs. They create their generative. They're not extractive.

They're not just taking the stable, what you already have that's established, they set you up for the future. I minished how many they're layers and layers. Why these matters are just a kind of hit on that.

But to your point, so I have to ask you this then, I I don't want to be steer typical, but of course there's going to be some journalizing just gonna stand my impression of london. I'm burning, raising united states, but my grandparents settled in london. This is in the seventies before I was born.

And the impression i've got from culturally is that there was kind of like, that was a classes, but very much a credential st. Society like you. You care very much about what's going you went to.

And I think that could be true in some ways, as elegant people can not really care what school you went to or what you did. Would you say that is true today? Do you think that evolving? And i'm bringing this up because you mention this point about what value you that certain words and in these concepts signals. So i'm curiously .

your perspective there. You know one of the essays that I wrote when we're early on in the f that was touch this, so I called don't be a bad collector. I think I probably wrote that about the time first on the protest is how pretty well I know.

What I was saying is that I think there is a cultural temptation. Let's call IT in the U. K. You to be like, i'm gonna really hard to get into the best university I can. I can get the best graduate job.

I, so I one of the biggest risk for small people, I think, is that you get into a mode where success is measured by where do you make your boss or good and that excess is manured by whether they make their body look look good. And seeing like all the way up what you are actually doing to your point about you know you mention like something a positive, some game, there's a risk in a lot of career tracks. The I must think you're not creating value but like your actual goal is to win the like upward political battle within struction.

Please come in small P, M. In this can be, be CoOperate to, can be in, or whatever. I think what's beautiful about stap tops, and the reason I you know more or less my entire rea helping people build them is that they're ultimately all about what you can .

do for other people. That's fantasy.

You you only succeed if you build something that is so that someone else will pay for IT. Yes, you cannot win in any other way. There is no boss to look good, to make a good. There is no like grading scheme that some teachers gonna tell you got an a an yes is like comes down to this very did you do something for someone .

else that they so great you're going against establish convention? You're often budding your head or punching through an industry that is not accept a new way of doing things. I'm just inking of my my former partner, mart casado, and the enterprise team.

When he was doing software defined networking, he was punching against very established old school methods for what networking look like. That was a very hard word based. And so it's like you have to literally punched. You're completely going against .

all conventions, build the thing to actually prove that that. And you know, I do think I sometimes think you know one of the chAllenges we face today is that if you are smart and ambitious, it's not so easy in some senses to find a comfortable path that is about making your boss or good all the way through a career and acquiring like money and influence and present, but actually maybe never really doing something that creates enormous value value.

I know now that you say that seems so obvious, but it's really not like just a pause on the idea. When you're doing and start up, you're building something that other people want and need. That's a really profound idea.

On that note, it's also very fascinating because of the economics I startups because usually if you're working for a company you were talking about you and Alice being at machines consulting, people think they're making good money, you know. But you really captive to your salary, you're not actually the world does not generate. And one thing that I find really powerful about startup s is that startups are the ones that innovated on the idea that employees can have a share of the returns on the work they do.

So even though you might be building your product for cause customers and consumers that people want, if you succeed, you know you can also be go to nothing. Obviously, that's the very real risk. But if you succeed, there can be very real gains for the people who put things in, especially for those that took a risk early on.

I don't know how the options and economics work in U. K. Startups, but that is, I think, a defining future of silence value in the early days. And I need to point that up because it's actually resent do what you said about not only pleasing people and being captive, but you're also helping other people and then actually creating value that for employs to they're always increase in the size of the pie for everyone in some form. So I mean, like to be cliched.

but that's very true. You know way I think this labor, there's a really important sort of ethical point here, which is that found is yeah, they can make a lot of money. They only get to capture value that they create. That's right. And you know, I think that is actually a really important idea. And I I find, you know, again, we focused manly on people early in their career when we were found know I just think that idea really resonated with people that know they yeah of course they would like to be successful, but they want to do within a framework where they feel they like create something.

Of course. I mean, it's like others SE, it's just gaming extraction. exactly. It's exact value adverse is value attraction? exactly. You know it's funny because it's also you now want to get like that all political.

But just like in terms of capitalism, stakeholders, people having a voice and and empowerment, I saw this lisc, if periodic zis round on twitter of, like, people like the most wealthy families in europe. And that list of the top five has not changed over centuries. Yeah, which is crazy because I just means a generational world passing along. Where is the united states that this is I I granted as a Younger country, but at the same time, like it's like the list is changing constantly, like the top ten will give people the top five wealthy people. And again, it's not about the money. I know I may got the focus just pointing out that when you think of this dynamism ah this this thing that a culture can change, be advanced at new value startups, can be generative is just really interesting to me because a lot of people started up me like most of the people are not access to old money.

right and and you know I think again, not no wanting to be political, but you are actually the thing that I think is non partisan and everyone can agree on is that actually the the thing we need is positive.

Some games you know like .

you the thing you know like different people have different views on, you know like how we tax wealth and big that everyone can agree on is if people what we want to reward in society is people that are creating valuable things. We don't want to reward extraction. And the people of things about stops is they can't extract. They're tt a create and yeah just something very valuable about that very powerful that actually I see people to cross the political spectrum sort of kind of get in behind the yes.

I agree on this note though, we're talking about the structural contest, right? I ve never removed to the individual. So let's add a little rigger to that.

What doesn't ecosystem me? Because they know that can be very buzz. D i've seit entrepreneurs.

Ecosystems for a very long time. Cover them for a very long time, as you know. And you know, including like interviews, all these different people throughout the world.

You are experts in this, like what an ecosystem. Ans, and couple of teams emerge. One you I was in new talent.

You need really strong universities and research ecosystem. You also need for the people that hate to admit this government support. So the other thing is there's a really important baLance between top down and bottom up.

And on the bottom outside, you obviously need of entrepreneurs. There are, as you know, many experiments, including plan cities, plan innovations like where people are trying to these centrally plan top down innovation initiatives. They never work, ever.

There have been many, many, many over the years and not one as work. Some argue singapore. That's a different unique, complex case.

I don't know it's as quote, entrepreneurial. It's a successful nation state, right? But that's a type ate thing.

So that's one aspect. Secondly, on the top downside, you obviously need enabling conditions like respect for property. Like in the us, we talk about respect for property rights.

IT can include respect for intellectual property IT can include support such as funding like darby, the united states, which finding the internet, things like that, supportive pro innovation policies and that the autom website is a community the top down. And then obviously the talent that comes in the form of universities, because university is our drivers of research and and innovation. So now i'm your point about the science and technology side. Talk to me about what you think is happening unique in london because .

we're sitting here yeah yeah means you mention doctor you know of side host aside on from of us is on the non executive chair of area, which is a new government backed uh, what government funded R N D funding agencies based on up the .

search eleven .

magine a billion dollars to basic fun breakthrough R D. That might otherwise not get on this. So really trying to take some of what worked to dopper, in particular this idea of what this program manager and model in powering brilliant scientists with visions to just go out yeah build the networks and coalitions of researchers to realize that vision that's right in a way that's like all about actually a lot of things people have been talking about is about ambition, is about incentives. Yeah, it's about line, all, all these things.

And you know, one of the things that's been really striking to me in the roughly year that that we've been up and running is, one is the depth of the scientific talent across the whole U. K. Not not slone's or not, started cambridge, but you know, truly across the whole country too.

Like, I almost like to struggle like the yearning for something like this when you look up, you know, like, why does aria need to exist? No, we do a tonic science in the U. K.

And actually know lucky to have been involved in a lot of the science funding organizations that that exist. But I think one of the chAllenges is that with scale comes, you know, a sort of more bureaucratic approach, right? If you try to run science funding for the whole country, of course you need to like show value for money for taxpayers.

And you know, you need to sort have a lot of process. But the consequence that not using this is a global thing. And you know, people like Patrick s.

And have written about that the chAllenges of west sciences got to, I think of IT as a career ambition in the problem. So if you do to talk to, like, incredible post docks across the U. K.

Across the us. And you say, like, what's your most ambitious idea and they tell you, and then you say, call and see you working on that. They're like, no, you know.

Like why not? Like, you know, if they, I know IT will, because I need to get this next publication, which is to get this many stations, because then i'll be able to get my next ground. And if I do that, then one day i'll be able, in ten years, to get my own lab.

And then, wow, this is crazy. We have some of the Grace minds of their generation playing a bit like the making a bus a good game. This is the making the grand makers happy again.

Same thing. I'm so glad you thought that up because this is important. So I want to break down a bit more about what you're saying because, you know, a lot of people have tried different forms of, I have fund R N D and way industrial R N S what you're talking about and in a way that's efficient and a lot of lessons learned here, which I think you're fast.

And so one you mentioned the concept of a program manager ah for those I don't know, like darpa had these famous model where they had program managers. And it's quite fascinating because like one examples is origination. George know and SHE would went to google later on, but I remember being at iraq park when her group funded.

And this is public advanced manufacturing initiative and like reconfiguring manufacturing and all these different things. And there's so many different interesting things about IT because one, there's first of all, many these initials can be very multi disciplinary, which universities are not well set up to do, where people are very silent in their departments. And so having these grants can sometimes be like kind of these .

umbrella. As for different disciples to come together, including across multiple university of unity.

different we back in the day we did like content center not working like IT was like various of the thing. So that's one interesting thing. Second thing, this is a very little known fact that people don't know about this model, is, and remember being fascinated about this when I was working with my colleagues, like helping them out with some stuff at S.

R. I, who are thinking about this, which is stanford research national, very, very famous for getting lots of research grants and different things. It's fascinating because most people, they think of government funding and program managers.

They think IT is being as a one way model where government is money, program manager allocates IT. Someone has a strong point of view and IT goes A B, C D, actually much more nonlinear interactive than that, where you actually have smart scientists informing the program managers for what proposals they want to see. And because actually the word in the grant making businesses, if you're bidding on an R F P request for proposal, by the time IT comes out, you're too late.

You should be shaping what proposals are coming out the first place. And that is the two way dialogue. Which government .

and universities of how are is working anning to work is is but bit hopefully an extremely transparent way, which is say, here is an area that we're excited about, where we think there is a thesis before we like my grants, before we do in R P.

We want to work this with people that have like a really broad range of views on IT so that we know like, you know what are the things we still out for, you know I mean, again, and there is a risk of clay, but so much of the chAllenge of this off, you don't know what you don't know and that's exactly across into the disciplinary boundaries. There's a lot of academic enata that suggests a surprise is the key to scientific break through, right? Surprise comes when you have a different a knowledge .

base of the best. Yeah, expect J. S. B, who is john? Silly Brown used to manage IT back in the day.

You to always say it's at the interesting cities, like at the edges. He's kind of in between industries. I may I do think that surprise or certain depity is very important. But I want to be careful that we don't glow of I like innovation as like this aha, you week a moment when it's many little things that can come together in mental and I actually think but tell if i'm wrong, when you say surprise, you also mean this emergent qualities 不， that you don't know what you said, what you don't know what you don't know that can actually come up bottom up because you're not top down saying, like you can say, we know this is an interesting area. You may even have a loose hypothesis, this is, but you don't have IT so opinionated and targeted that you're literally veering into central planning.

which is where, I would say, place of china. When i'm too much surprised i'm talking about almost like what happens when the biologist talks to the computer scientist about a problem that has a rough with the same counters they never realized before the biologists, and then you, and yeah, an incredibly productive thing that I.

I, you a picture of the quiet. Because whenever I used to give tours that was in my job, but because I was had a natural at at park, I did give like these marketing Marks, like the tours every now and then. And IT was funny, because one of the messages is so true, because they'd always asked that how do this one place, not just one, not a one he wonder, repeatedly create one innovation.

And these are attacking world changing innovations. I internet like, I came to the gooey like there was list of things that they did laser like, and at the big part of IT had to do with this multiple cities ary thing and putting them in the same thing. But here's the other thing that people don't know.

And this is what we're talking about. IT wasn't just you put a bunch of smart people from different disciplines in one building and go, hey, collaborate. The founder of zero op. Gave them a mission. And the mission was to build the office of the future. The very simple mission brought enough to enable all kinds of innovation, a specific enough to provide a fundable so it's not like crazy down like people are like, oh, I want to build a sneaker that like rose on hallways and I can escape through the but you yeah yeah Terry.

hundred percent. I think that idea of mission, I mean that that's the other bit CEO R I I think one of the reasons i'm so happy he's doing that job is that just a sense of submission he has about 我？ 我 穿 是 alfa。

And how did are you come about like the government before government.

how did this come about? The government create this by acts of parliament early in twenty two, and then run an open process to high r in a chair. I know I have been public because, well, mainly because if they work up IT on the E.

F, i'd been very interested in this idea of, like how do you do institutional innovation? Because he is not the same as V C is not that I so you know have always been interested in this. Like how do you do institutional innovation to increase the supply of of things that you won? Yeah and in the way R E F is like trying to increase the supply of great founders. I was trying to increase the supply of you know scientific breakthrough through this institutional innovation. And so I know I was uh I I just applied and um sign into my surprise I got the job and my surprise I mean the land was in best of nea home for you who's in bucky and he who was running this incredible thing called the activate fellowship which like deep tech on from adelia what I think is very fascinating .

about you being involved is the other part of having this. When you said their goal was to increase the number of ciencias c breakthroughs, the other part of of IT is how do you then actually take those break through and make something of them because as you know, there's no shortage of brilliant ideas and things coming out, but there has to be like a system that can absorb and help support and nurture IT. And so I think it's fascinating that you're involved because and it's also like weed, you don't only have to start go to like this classic in your model of university funding ex, you may also able to up you collaborate with a big company. You could go here, you the the company can acquire the pattern.

There's such a vice yeah is interest the and I would say like probably the most important structural strategic question we had to answer is so far is whose the customer if you think about dr, right, the d yeah, it's defense. It's pretty important. Like I mean, every I mean, they done a good job of sort of like about the opposite of IT, but there is a big like .

they are building things that the palm definite as as is the case. But yeah, yeah.

we are not dare we are we don't have a big customer, right? And that was a big import decision not to be know we are of government, but were very independent of IT what we call in U. K. Non departmental public body, which basically means what outside government. And so like you know, the question that alan rightly asked the beginning is we're not gonna have a customer.

So like what is the exit path? Like we find something great, what do we do with that? And the answer is probably not surprising given that they appointed an entrepreneur C O, an entrepreneur s as a chair, is within the entire scientific entrepreneurship and elan's ansto.

This is. And we need to make sure that the unifying between area and the ecosystem comprenez system is really poor in both directions. I agree.

both directions is a key word. Ah, I love that you guys say scientific entrepreneurship because our tag line, i've said this publicly in talks, our two word phrase at zog's park was entrepreneurs, science. So scientists who are entrepreneurs but are not actually starting start up, yes.

And they have this entrepreneurship dthat. There's a reason they're there's a reason they are not in industry. They're in between. They're really unique interface. So I think that's fascinating.

We don't to talk about this right now, but just one other I K I K note is, you know, there's also important to make sure process doesn't get in the way because one piece I did at IT was Patrick suu and tiger coin on the fast grants. And one key insight, this always came out of the pandemic is that sometimes you just have to deploy capital quickly, yes, and sometimes in government process. And now is that there's a good reason for IT can get in the way of doing that from allocating funding.

And that's that's been like cause I have we think about this, how do you get out the way you know, like one of the reasons I think doctors succeeded is like this very few veto points, you know. It's not like you have .

to get like people .

to say and we mear you know you the program directors have to convince the and basically yeah and you know my job is to chair the board is to like scrutinised the hall but not get into the wait, not be another vana.

Let's shift back to the individual. We're talking about the structural. You you said something incredibly vcs ating earlier, which is how you are obsessed, the ambition. And this question of ambition, you also said another really beautiful, profound, powerful word, which is yearning, this idea that people have this morning.

And the reason that struck me is because when you talk about how you guys are actually trying to support people earlier in the pipeline to become entrepreneurs and know that's a path for them, what really struck me is it's fascine that you even have to do that, that we should even have to do that culturally and society. Because if you really think about the children are born creative and are born entrepreneurs, know X, Y, Z, you're let's trade on the school thing. Let's trade lunches.

I'll give you two pretzel for one kit cat. Whatever IT is, it's commerce. Sometimes it's about building things together on the playground. So I think there's something kind of sad that people lose that bitters. And one question I have for you from your unique vantage point at entrepreneur is when you say you try to get people early, what is a sweet spot that when you say like at earlier in their career because IT right as college.

like we in london, we have teacher acts and actually said Simon paris, so we Operate in in in london, in paris and in bangalore and in new york. And the two trust we have as we have a track for people as they graduate from university. I know we have a track for people in. We don't put a hard limit on A B in the first five years. That career got a little bit of work.

I IT.

I think like those two moments are quite special moments like the. As well as big as yearning and ambition. In another way we think about a lot is becoming the like as one very but my colleague, hon shank's.

brilliant guy, who runs .

a program for chat group with you, really convinced me of ambitious people have a sense of who they want to become, but often less of percent of how.

so they know who, how.

And so like a big part of to try help people become the person that .

so what used to always say in the early days, when people to ask him, like there are three pools for a startup product, its market, its people. And he would always say that people is the one you went on the most. Because product can change, market can change. And that can actually sometimes be a lagging verses, a leading indicator. But people are where you can really find that sort of you know true north, that sort of cutting forward, which differential that you're looking time in that kind of a business that's really interesting.

So what I like about what you're saying, because my question you've answered is very precise, which is at what point do you kind of intervene or yeah and what you're saying is by doing IT in college and the early five years of their you like their first job, that is the how they have a sense of what yeah because my argument was going to be like, why not do IT sooner crypto? Since we are actually high scholars, they are upset like you want to to learn. And it's not for a financial reasons. It's building .

its creativity. It's like expression. And we want to engage with people early. And the thing that keeps IT very grounded is the is really about like what is the community, what is the infrastructure that you can provide to people that helps them figure this out for themselves? We're we're not trying to help to become, but know it's like how can we you know how can we set of provide a peer group that make people say, actually the way I don't want to be a banker, I don't want to go be yeah work in a hundred thousand person, that company I now found my people. I found the people that the not only validate that that sense, but but actually can help me get that you also need a support .

if you're struggling, which to figure something out because .

you're not alone is feeling choices of a valid, I mean, so basic.

so much to figure out, right? You don't have structure a classic top bottom up. The other quick thing is that this reminds me begin of child to the development because there's a body of work that says that is not the parents, it's nature nurture debates, but is actually the peer group that defines your development the most is is a very controversial and very important body of work from jew dith Harris.

And like the ots and IT was a very important moment in child psychology development. So just on this note. So as you do this work, and we were talking about how hard IT is to have this like this, to harness people's ambition, are there any icons you think that people need is in the U. S. The social network movie was a moment, right? Like capital gap early on, where people can get Angel funding, but not like the next day, I would argue that a similar thing on a talent game for building a company where you can find like the early employees but not the people who can scale IT.

I think that still I I I think it's closing, but it's closing more slowly, takes longer. You need those companies to to but you know, I think this is also why this like idea of ambition should be global from day one. Like, yes, we want this to be a great ecosystem in london, but we not nationalist.

That's a great, you know, I think about E, F, S, best companies, the ones that getting fast are the ones that are embraced to be U. S. Companies as well as this company.

Yes, I totally agree. So going back to the structural content before we go more in people because I do want to drill with you on the the talent side more, but on the more structural ecosystem context. So we talked like again over seven years ago, very exciting.

You've come a very long way, very proud of the work that you and Alice and your team have done. entrepreneurs. You also a unique vantage point giving your work into the london ecosystem and the tech ecosystem.

So what are your views on what's working, what's not working at a high level? And then what's really changed? I mean, yeah but it's fun that we're doing this .

again after years well you know is so funny because um and I think this this is a thing that a lot of entrepreneurs state remember when we start we were so comments too late. We left our jobs in twenty eleven and I took a little bit iteration for you have to become one is now but you know remember in twenty eleven we like maybe maybe this is I think was like one organization describing such a seed funds.

When we do damages today, you know you get like two thousand people, you know so the ecosystem is grow massively yeah. And you know I think I think that's true. Like every layer of the stack, if you like.

You know, I think the town and we really a little bit about how tide Young town is, but also the proliferation of Angel investors, seed funds and then the bid that i'm excited about more recently. And I guess this is sort of a of you guys coming here and every in office is a good example. Yes, is that for a long, long time people talked about like the the capital gap in the U.

K. system. Yeah you could rather a seed round, maybe a series a, but in a series b was, yeah and you like there's a way to go. But both in terms about local firms growing up and you know kind of building reputations and and track records, but also you know that this sort of most famous and story american firms right coming here, I think that's a huge and positive for the e system.

That's more a difference of degree though that kind like in terms of you saying there's more investors, more capital available, more people doing things, more entrepreneurs, would you say there's any differences in kind?

I think the difference in kind I would most point to, and it's going to seem I am obsessed this thing, but .

it's just .

about bimetal. There is some really ambitious stops you know about that. You know, in fact, I remember that when we recorded up .

podcast seven years ago.

one of my fellow guests on that was Michelle you, who was one of the family of some cake. yeah. Now that was, that was one of the first like real first generation london startup. S i'm super ambitious, but they were unusual. You, like most twenty eleven london startups, arguably was .

sort of like trying to get bored .

that that was the exit. What what sort of ambition with ecosystem support that. And so the difference of kind of point out is that I think we now have people who are truly trying to build a global category winner from london, from the U.

K. Now we're not there. You still IT is amazing what you know, Daniel has not spotify and in general still oh, draw some really extraordinary european success stories. But you know, I think that still we still appointed things that the uh happened a little while. But yeah, I do get the sense you know maybe kyp is A A an area where this might happen. Well, you know you I do think the ten years now will look back and say, you know the early twenty twenty years was actually pretty special time to build globally ambitious companies from europe.

I'm so god about a crypto because when I think a crypto, this goes back to the earlier point about the positive. Some game in the incentives is really about incentive mechanisms and incentive aligned. And that's actually the beautiful thing of the crypto s that bake these things in structure. So there's a lot of ways to align different parties of people together to build banks. So I kind of agree you that this .

could be very unique time. One to think one of the exciting things about cypher from a geographic perspective is IT is like natively global, is not one of those things where you look to a domestic market and then exam, you know and you know when I think about two crypto companies that we've invest in together under resorts international, jenson and an an attack. And what you see is like these are people try to infrastructure for a different world, but they are not building IT for london or the U K. Yes, he is inherently in a global c later .

C O O of units w on and saying um how this is a really unique cyp aoc launch because standing global when you like most other times you use to have like you're saying these regions, you would land and expand in this market and that market yes, this market that does not go that way.

I don't think he also plays to london strength in a lot ways in the the other thing that I observe now that we've been investing in the companies yeah for a long time, I think we started the like london bit on me up in twenty fourteen within peril college. But you know we one of the things I am sure you say this, you know, with probably a Better of vange point that almost anyone be, you know, when you go through this like hype cycles and winters is easy to get discouraged. But you know, one thing that I find so like exciting a moving from a town investor point of view, is when I look at like what are the investments we ve made in founders that build in the space that have worked, they're actually all, all the ones they were just trying to fundament play, build real technology.

Interesting as opposed to.

well, what I mean is like, you know, I think at the height of a boom, yes, you do get a lot of though and I have saying like some of that felt pretty extractive because IT, yeah, you know, I look at Jackson, I look at attack and like these are like engineering that companies building incredibly hard products and that's what gives them the right to win. yes. And and I do things like europe.

Not that good or hasn't me not good at the hype, Frankly. And so in some category, hype helps a lot. But at what I am really excited by, like I think one of things that we all really get that in london in the U K.

Is like science and technology. You like actually doing hard engineering test. yes. And I think that for me, when I think about the future gypt, I think like we just still need a lot of fundamental new technology to make this.

This is why i'm in the space. This is actually a big reason. I came to the gypt to team full time because of our R N D. The research development side, it's so technological, the debt that expertise like for those inside, it's phenomenally engineering focus. And I love that's kind of a building. And I agree with you like and there is as you said, there's always a frothin ss in every cycle, and that's that's okay because sometimes that creates the buz.

then brings the people that people .

stay through every cycle and and more were in a phase right now where the building in the product that things that are happening are phenomenal. So my last question for you is, what would you say given that this is art, not a science, but i'm going to make a little scientific for a moment. Are the qualities that you see that make someone a good entrepreneur or what what kind of in your talent game like what is the quote formula or filter that you use?

I don't think there is a formula, but I think that being exceptional is more of a habit. And sometimes we admit and what I look for when I mean, if i'm interviewing like a twenty one year old who's like never worked anywhere, never yeah I am what i'm always asking is what if they done, however unreliable, to starting to talk the they had to do on their own volition without anyone time of yes, where they went above, beyond yeah and something happened my that idea of agency in the word and I think fantastic .

note to end on its ambition, yearning, becoming. And I love the line you said about ambition is global because we're here in the U. K. I'm from silicon valley, but we're talking about a global phenomenon.

Thank you so much for joining. so.